On August 03 2011 07:07 Senx wrote: People keep saying Dota is huge in asia, so what? What does that have to do with it being big in the western world? Its not, thats why wheat doesn't give the game any attention on LO3. Whats the issue here? There are other bigger western esport titles that gets attention on LO3.
I'm struggeling to see why you guys are so bitter about it when there's nothing to talk about. He's gonna try to get involved in the chinese scene? How is that relevant to the show? How many will actually be interested to hear about some unknown godly chinese dota team that a vast majority of LO3 listeners know nothing about or has any interest in.
TWO lans per year doesn't exactly make a interesting dota scene. So while you guys love to complain about wheats ignorance to the massive AMAZING dota scene, there's not much to be ignorant about, atleast to us "foreigners".
There's no dota coverage on esport sites, why is that? There has to be a very good reason why nobody wants to cover this game.
Basically you dont have the features you need to properly do coverage for such a game. Furthermore, there is no official platform on which you can do tournaments on. Battlenet belongs to blizzard, and has horrible delay.
Thats why it becomes necessary to play on other platforms. This consumes a lot of time and work for everyone involved, and if someone drops due to disconnect (because the game is being played on an instable platform), then it takes way too long to get the game going again. (games have to be saved every few minutes due to this). There are plenty more technical difficulties that are being imposed on the game due to the wc3 engine being outdated, all of which will be history once DotA2 launches.
Just because its big in china doesnt mean that it isnt big in the western world. DotA started in the west, and just recently (2008-9 maybe? not sure) became really big in Asia. Its huge in the west and its as huge (if not huger) in asia.
Would you rather want to cover a standalone game that has a company behind it, or a map modification that has no company behind it?
LoL is basically the answer to your question. Its DotA without its wc3 limitations, and with a company backing it up. As DotA has the superior gameplay (and most definitely the bigger playerbase), there is absolutely no reason why it wouldnt surpass its clone.
I have several friends that used to play DotA, but switched to HoN or LoL due to them being free of all the wc3 bullshit DotA has to endure. I also played those games, but sticked with DotA because it has the stronger gameplay. HoN is basically an exact copy of dota (it started with 50 heroes or so, all of which were brought over from DotA, same skills and stats, just renamed) (later on they added their own heroes to distinguish themselves from dota, but they kept implementing changes that have been added to dota just recently aswell), same map layout and same creepcamps etc. LoL is a little different, they tried to distinguish themselves from DotA to make it less apparent, but its also pretty much the same (just not as blatant as with HoN). To get to my point, several of my friends play HoN now, several play LoL and many still play DotA. All of them have something in common: everyone will switch to DotA2 once it hits.
On August 03 2011 07:07 Senx wrote: TWO lans per year doesn't exactly make a interesting dota scene. So while you guys love to complain about wheats ignorance to the massive AMAZING dota scene, there's not much to be ignorant about, atleast to us "foreigners"
I'm sorry, he asked for the biggest, not all the lans. We can mention ESWC, WCG, SMM, WDC, DTS Cup, Asus, ESTC and many other LAN events.
It's easy to say that DotA didn't advance to promote itself as a eSport, but remember: NO BUDGET on marketing/publicity, NO BIG COMPANY behind the game. Only a huge and passionate community.
No one is attacking djWHEAT. He asked questions and we tried to answer the best we can.
On August 03 2011 07:21 shostakovich wrote: I'm sorry, he asked for the biggest, not all the lans. We can mention ESWC, WCG, SMM, WDC, DTS Cup, Asus, ESTC and many other LAN events.
It's easy to say that DotA didn't advance to promote itself as a eSport, but remember: NO BUDGET on marketing/publicity, NO BIG COMPANY behind the game. Only a huge and passionate community.
No one is attacking djWHEAT. He asked questions and we tried to answer the best we can.
This is one of the reasons modern events aren't jumping on DotA. A lot of them require partnerships, buy-ins, or other perks. DotA has no company holding its hand so it lacks that sort of funding. Another aspect is that it's on Wc3 as a mod, which isn't designed to be spectator material unlike SC2 and the very basic fighting game. (Basic as in 1v1 with two characters that makes it easy for anyone to watch -- the popular fighting games do have a lot of depth).
On August 03 2011 07:21 shostakovich wrote: I'm sorry, he asked for the biggest, not all the lans. We can mention ESWC, WCG, SMM, WDC, DTS Cup, Asus, ESTC and many other LAN events.
It's easy to say that DotA didn't advance to promote itself as a eSport, but remember: NO BUDGET on marketing/publicity, NO BIG COMPANY behind the game. Only a huge and passionate community.
No one is attacking djWHEAT. He asked questions and we tried to answer the best we can.
This is one of the reasons modern events aren't jumping on DotA. A lot of them require partnerships, buy-ins, or other perks. DotA has no company holding its hand so it lacks that sort of funding. Another aspect is that it's on Wc3 as a mod, which isn't designed to be spectator material unlike SC2 and the very basic fighting game. (Basic as in 1v1 with two characters that makes it easy for anyone to watch -- the popular fighting games do have a lot of depth).
Thats why you dont see anyone claiming that DotA 1 will suddenly become a big esports title. They are telling you that DotA2 will be, because now it will have a company backing it up, and it is going to be stripped free of all its wc3 limitations that has been holding DotA back for so many years.
On August 03 2011 07:25 Froztlol wrote: This is one of the reasons modern events aren't jumping on DotA. A lot of them require partnerships, buy-ins, or other perks. DotA has no company holding its hand so it lacks that sort of funding. Another aspect is that it's on Wc3 as a mod, which isn't designed to be spectator material unlike SC2 and the very basic fighting game. (Basic as in 1v1 with two characters that makes it easy for anyone to watch -- the popular fighting games do have a lot of depth).
And yet, it has a huge player base and a decent scene, DESPITE ALL THE TROUBLE. If you think it's a custom mod becoming an actual game, you'll see that it's almost a fairy tale, an almost unbelievable fairy tale. Just imagine what DotA can reach with publicity and backup. Just think on the potential.
People aren't excited for nothing, they are because someone is finally answering them.
On August 03 2011 07:33 shostakovich wrote: And yet, it has a huge player base and a decent scene, DESPITE ALL THE TROUBLE. If you think it's a custom mod becoming an actual game, you'll see that it's almost a fairy tale, an almost unbelievable fairy tale. Just imagine what DotA can reach with publicity and backup. Just think on the potential.
People aren't excited for nothing, they are because someone is finally answering them.
Trust me I play DotA for six years, I'm extremely excited for all the features and corporate backing that Valve will provide for the game.
On August 03 2011 07:21 shostakovich wrote: I'm sorry, he asked for the biggest, not all the lans. We can mention ESWC, WCG, SMM, WDC, DTS Cup, Asus, ESTC and many other LAN events.
It's easy to say that DotA didn't advance to promote itself as a eSport, but remember: NO BUDGET on marketing/publicity, NO BIG COMPANY behind the game. Only a huge and passionate community.
No one is attacking djWHEAT. He asked questions and we tried to answer the best we can.
This is one of the reasons modern events aren't jumping on DotA. A lot of them require partnerships, buy-ins, or other perks. DotA has no company holding its hand so it lacks that sort of funding. Another aspect is that it's on Wc3 as a mod, which isn't designed to be spectator material unlike SC2 and the very basic fighting game. (Basic as in 1v1 with two characters that makes it easy for anyone to watch -- the popular fighting games do have a lot of depth).
Bingo. DotA was not able to buy its way into tournaments like other games were and basically had to rely on numbers and the community to do so. Same thing with sponsorship. Getting it wasn't easy for DotA. Tournaments for a long time were pooling $50-$100 for a 5-man game because the support just wasn't there and it took a while before the scene actually starting seeing prize money, which I think was around 2008. I remember DotA-League's first offline tournament had like a 500 Euro prize pool. And teams attended to show their support.
On August 03 2011 07:33 shostakovich wrote: And yet, it has a huge player base and a decent scene, DESPITE ALL THE TROUBLE. If you think it's a custom mod becoming an actual game, you'll see that it's almost a fairy tale, an almost unbelievable fairy tale. Just imagine what DotA can reach with publicity and backup. Just think on the potential.
People aren't excited for nothing, they are because someone is finally answering them.
Trust me I play DotA for six years, I'm extremely excited for all the features and corporate backing that Valve will provide for the game.
HoN's competitive scene isn't big. It just has a lot of money being pooled into it by S2 Games. But yeah, top teams and players from HoN have expressed desire to try and possibly move to DotA 2.
On August 03 2011 07:07 Senx wrote: People keep saying Dota is huge in asia, so what? What does that have to do with it being big in the western world? Its not, thats why wheat doesn't give the game any attention on LO3. Whats the issue here? There are other bigger western esport titles that gets attention on LO3.
I'm struggeling to see why you guys are so bitter about it when there's nothing to talk about. He's gonna try to get involved in the chinese scene? How is that relevant to the show? How many will actually be interested to hear about some unknown godly chinese dota team that a vast majority of LO3 listeners know nothing about or has any interest in.
TWO lans per year doesn't exactly make a interesting dota scene. So while you guys love to complain about wheats ignorance to the massive AMAZING dota scene, there's not much to be ignorant about, atleast to us "foreigners".
There's no dota coverage on esport sites, why is that? There has to be a very good reason why nobody wants to cover this game.
DotA did not become big in the west for various reasons. This discussion is ultimately about whether DotA2 will succeed or not as an esport. The DotA community is extremely optimistic because of the fact of the massive player base, the growth of all of esports, and the massive Chinese following. This optimism is where the bitterness you are seeing is coming from. If you read the responses to djWheat's questions about whether or not it is his fault for being ignorant of the DotA scene very few are putting the blame on him. One of the reasons why djWheat doesnt know anything about the scene is the fact that competitive DotA in the United States is as close to dead as it can be, and has been for a long time. There is only a handful of active international American players, the most prevalent being Demon and Fear, who are on two separate European teams.
On August 03 2011 07:07 Senx wrote: TWO lans per year doesn't exactly make a interesting dota scene. So while you guys love to complain about wheats ignorance to the massive AMAZING dota scene, there's not much to be ignorant about, atleast to us "foreigners"
I'm sorry, he asked for the biggest, not all the lans. We can mention ESWC, WCG, SMM, WDC, DTS Cup, Asus, ESTC and many other LAN events.
It's easy to say that DotA didn't advance to promote itself as a eSport, but remember: NO BUDGET on marketing/publicity, NO BIG COMPANY behind the game. Only a huge and passionate community.
No one is attacking djWHEAT. He asked questions and we tried to answer the best we can.
In that case the community failed misserably.. just look at CS 1.6, a game that is seen as Valves unwanted child ever since it became popular, they understood its popularity but did NOTHING to really support it ( 10 year old bugs STILL remain, no marketing, no money involvement, no community feedback/interaction ). Now cs 1.6 happens to be one of the most succesful western esports titles of all time.
Just to give you guys some more interesting information (based on what i think happened): The moment rumours about DotA2 being covered at gamescom appeared on the internet, the moment HoN staff realized, OH SHIT we dont have as much time left as we thought we had in order to convince more players to switch over to our game. What was their reaction? They cut the prize for their game to 10 dollars.
At that time, i was telling my friends: guys look at their stupid move, they are so desperate because they are running out of time, that they seriously cut the prize down. I even went as far as to claim that it was a stupid move, because the better move wouldve been to immediately go free to play as there isnt much time left before DotA2 hits and whether people pay 10 dollar or 30 dollar wouldnt make much of a difference, they wouldnt be inclined to pay either of those amounts if they werent beforehand. What happened? A few days later they came to the same conclusion, and went free to play.
The guys over at HoN know exactly what DotA is capable of (i assume LoL knows even better) and thats why they decided to do what they did. This event i am talking about (HoN going from 30 whatever dollars to 10 dollars and then going free to play) happened in a very short period of time, i am talking about days. It was a reaction to something and that something is DotA 2.
For DOTA to go big, it seems like the type of game that needs a lot of support in order for it to really take off. Like in the form of maps that highlight various kinds of Character/Item and Character/Character relationships. Perhaps Valve can support it well, but we shall see.
Also, how duped is DoTA? I know China isn't really the poster child for respecting I.P.'s so it the DoTA community scattered across several games or has it stayed together?
On August 03 2011 07:54 gh0un wrote: Just to give you guys some more interesting information (based on what i think happened): The moment rumours about DotA2 being covered at gamescom appeared on the internet, the moment HoN staff realized, OH SHIT we dont have as much time left as we thought we had in order to convince more players to switch over to our game. What was their reaction? They cut the prize for their game to 10 dollars.
At that time, i was telling my friends: guys look at their stupid move, they are so desperate because they are running out of time, that they seriously cut the prize down. I even went as far as to claim that it was a stupid move, because the better move wouldve been to immediately go free to play as there isnt much time left before DotA2 hits and whether people pay 10 dollar or 30 dollar wouldnt make much of a difference, they wouldnt be inclined to pay either of those amounts if they werent beforehand. What happened? A few days later they came to the same conclusion, and went free to play.
The guys over at HoN know exactly what DotA is capable of (i assume LoL knows even better) and thats why they decided to do what they did. This event i am talking about (HoN going from 30 whatever dollars to 10 dollars and then going free to play) happened in a very short period of time, i am talking about days. It was a reaction to something and that something is DotA 2.
Its their only competition. Not too many clones out there yet and DotA is the original right? Seems like a typical business move. I'm sure you could see the same thing happen with other RTS's around SC2's release, or MMO's around WoW expansion releases, etc.
As far as casters go it would undoubtedly be Tobi for the english viewers, but he is more of the tasteless figure. For those who have never heard Tobi before he is very energetic Australian play by play, who i believe has said he is looking for the Artosis to his tasteless. For more analysis in the style of Day-9 there is nebula who i personally have never watched, and have also heard mixed reviews about.
On August 03 2011 05:01 djWHEAT wrote: - If someone heard about DotA and wanted to get into it at the most basic level, which website would you send them to? If I had no one to ask, how hard would it be for me to find? Would it be PLAYDOTA.com?
PLAYDOTA.com as far as i know would be the recommended place for completely new players to learn about DotA, but that could change with the creation of DotA2, as it appears Valve and IceFrog are working towards creatings tools in game to help players get better. A lot of information on what their plans are can be found at http://blog.dota2.com/. For more experienced players i would recommend GosuGamers.net/dota for downloading replays, and occasionally they do write ups and analysis on games. For example they just added one up which can be found here http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/features/2759 Tobi is launching a project at JoinDota.com i do not know if this is only for his shoutcasting or if it will become a larger community website where players can learn or interact.
For the difficulty level it would most likely be hard to find GosuGamers.net but PlayDotA.com is extremely easy to find about as it is almost needed to download the map and the title screen of the map as it loads will have PlayDota.com written write on it. While on the topic of the title screen IceFrog always gives shutouts to winners of tournaments and other information, Here is an example + Show Spoiler +
These shoutouts that IceFrog does is extremely minor but it shows he keeps up to date with the DotA competitive scene and could spark some interest in public players. In DotA occasionally your hero will have a "fun name" where the name of your hero will be changed, and IceFrog has put the names of players, such as YaphetS, as the fun name of the heroes in certain occasion when a player is really known for using that specific hero. Once again this doesnt really add much, if anything at all, but it shows IceFrog follows the scene and it often shows in his balancing of the game, where he really caters to the pros.
On August 03 2011 05:01 djWHEAT wrote: - SC2 and Street Fighter 4 have been two games that have proven that they can carry an active audience of people who do not even play the game. Do you think this audience already exists in the DotA scene and if not, do you think it can?
As everyone has already mentioned it is hard, possibly even impossible, for someone who has never played DotA to enjoy watching a stream. This is undoubtedly a massive flaw with the game but i would like to add that it does not suffer from the TF2/CoD dilemma you talked about on your show some time ago. Even in the lowest pub levels the game is extremely competitive, among those participating in that pub game, and that coupled with the fact that if one player performs poorly it effects the games outcome greatly is the reason why DotA/HoN have the notion of being the most hostile community. This hostile community, however, has its benefits as it will often push people to become a better player, thus leading new players to finding out about the professional scene, and could possibly replace some of the audience lost by the fact DotA is hard to watch without prior knowledge of the game if you happen to turn the stream on at the wrong time.
On August 03 2011 05:01 djWHEAT wrote: - Who is your favorite team?
I have not been following the DotA scene that much since around the time DTS disbanded, but i would have to say MYM as they have an American on their roster and have recently showed the most dominance in the European scene.
On August 03 2011 05:01 djWHEAT wrote: - As a DotA fan, do you follow any other eSports titles? If so, which ones and how often?
For games i have a decent/large understanding of the game and currently follow are SC2, DotA, and to a very minor extent HoN. For games i follow very casually and have none/little experience are SF4/Marvel and Quake. i have only recently started following fighting because of the hype surrounding EVO and the documentaries that have come out such as Focus and King of Chinatown. For background i have come from the early PC CoD games, which is the title that got me into esports despite it being a joke.
The rest of the questions i feel have already been answered in depth
I would like to add that i agree with the that the Gamescom tournament is marketing but i feel it will affect the esports scene. As of right now DotA2 is the only new game on the horizon with the potential to rival SC2 and expand esports globally, and this tournament is the best way to gather hype. For it to succeed however it needs to get the Chinese on board and win the war against Hon and LoL. The competitive scene of HoN is almost guaranteed to die once DotA2 is released, and i believe teams such as fnaticMSI are already going to switch over, or at least the players of fnatic. For LoL i really don't know anything about the scene besides its stream numbers and the size of its player base, but all 3 developers have showed interest in the esports scene, to at the very least attract more players to their game.
As i have said there is a huge amount of optimism from the standing DotA community and this is going to create passion. I just finished reading an article which really reflects this optimism. http://nadota.com/674/precision-timing/
On August 03 2011 07:48 Senx wrote: In that case the community failed misserably.. just look at CS 1.6, a game that is seen as Valves unwanted child ever since it became popular, they understood its popularity but did NOTHING to really support it ( 10 year old bugs STILL remain, no marketing, no money involvement, no community feedback/interaction ). Now cs 1.6 happens to be one of the most succesful western esports titles of all time.
Not really, The scene is already big even without Valve. Big without marketing. With some money going around, specially on the big LANs and China. And the community actually helps Icefrog at building and balancing the game. Considering all the challenges, I think the community actually succeded. After all, the game is being taken to another level. We would be talking about 'failure' if DotA didn't evolve at all. DOTA 2 is a proof of the community success.
EPT
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