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In preparation for the upcoming LO3 discussion on DotA, I would appreciate it if the well versed members of the community (which many of you have demonstrated you are) could help answer the following questions. Keep in mind, these are not meant to be condescending or "set up" questions, after reading everything in this thread, these are the things I'm still a bit unsure about. Instead of making assumptions, I'd rather hear from you guys.
You can also send your answers to: djWHEAT @ OneMoreGame.tv
- Of the established leagues and competitions, who is the largest, what is the frequency of said events, and how much prize money has been given out (average) during these competitions?
- DotA is popular in Asia, so are a million really bad MMO's... what efforts have been made to bring DotA OUT of Asia to other countries? (i.e. GomTV began English broadcasting several years ago). Does it need to leave Asia?
- Who is the Day[9] of DotA?
- With such a popular community, teams, etc... why haven't we seen DotA showcased at well-known international eSports competitions? I know that it made some appearances at WCG, ESWC, and Blizzard events, but these were typically "one off" type competitions?
- Does the population of Chinese players (which sounds like it's the biggest landscape of players) rely on non-legit versions of WarCraft 3: TFT? I always felt like one of the biggest issues with the advancement of DotA dating back to like BlizzCon 2005 was the fact that new players had to purchase WC3... this was also a problem with games like Quake 3. I'm just curious how that works in China (and everywhere else for that matter)
- Is the DotA community satisfied living in a self-contained bubble? It seems like other eSports games/audiences are fairly uneducated when it comes to the history Rotegirte provided in this thread.
- Why do you think there are people (like myself) who have extensive knowledge in eSports, yet don't know much about DotA? Is this the fault of the individual? Or is it the fault of the collective DotA community? Or is there no fault at all and it's just two paths that have not crossed?
- If someone heard about DotA and wanted to get into it at the most basic level, which website would you send them to? If I had no one to ask, how hard would it be for me to find? Would it be PLAYDOTA.com?
- SC2 and Street Fighter 4 have been two games that have proven that they can carry an active audience of people who do not even play the game. Do you think this audience already exists in the DotA scene and if not, do you think it can?
- Who is your favorite team?
- Which country do you believe has the largest population of players and fans?
- As a DotA fan, do you follow any other eSports titles? If so, which ones and how often?
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Has there been any talk of getting SSF4:AE at MLG ? I know there was some stupid drama last year about it.
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On August 03 2011 05:01 djWHEAT wrote:
- SC2 and Street Fighter 4 have been two games that have proven that they can carry an active audience of people who do not even play the game. Do you think this audience already exists in the DotA scene and if not, do you think it can?
I really only feel qualified to answer this question of the ones djWHEAT posed. As one of those guys who watches SSFIV:AE and MvC3 (and does not play them), I might be inclined to watch some of these MOBA games if there was a way to watch them similar to the observer mode in SC2. I certainly do NOT want to be following around one dude's hero for an hour.
Similarly, the games are in general too long. When good matches last an hour I get bored. As a spectator I want to see the 10-40min matches/gane that I can get from SC2 and Street Fighter IV competitions. 45min of watching dudes run around and then 15 seconds of action as 5 heroes utterly obliterate 5 others is NOT a very fun thing to watch. Yet, in order to keep many of the fans of the franchise on board I don't see how Valve can change such a core concept of the game without alienating a large part of their fanbase.
Overall the games need to be shorter and encourage more action throughout the match to maintain a viewership, but how to do that without making a totally different game than "DotA" is a big challenge and something that Valve will have to overcome.
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BTW, since everyone is quoting me on this:
I know you will disagree with me, but DotA has made ZERO advancement in terms of a globally popular spotlighted eSports title.
I feel as if I need to provide more information. Although some of the information provided in this thread was very insightful and unknown to me, I do feel as if I'm aware of the popularity of DotA.
With that being said, it was a pretty fucking stupid statement to make without putting context behind it.
I have respect for any community which can sustain itself, teams, popularity, content, etc. However, many of you are in the DotA community, and have been for quite sometime. My focus has been in "eSports" as dictated by popular global events. These global events have maintained a fairly consistent game line-up for the past 12 years. The most prominent of these games (the A-Listers) include, Counter-Strike 1.6, Quake, StarCraft, and WC3. These are globally popular spotlighted eSports titles.
The context to which I would like to add to the quote above is that I have never seen DotA consistently join the ranks the games mentioned above. And that is where my "Zero Advancement" came from. I would make the exact same statement about "Call of Duty", another game that is ridiculously popular, has an established team base, will be awarding 1mil to a team, yet it still seems foreign if Slasher reported CoD scores each week on Lo3.
I'm not trying to shit on DotA or the community. I'm simply trying to explain why I personally (and I believe many others) see DotA as a "B-List" eSports title. (Hopefully I can change this perspective with some answers to the questions above). DotA is probably a A-List title to many of you, and I respect that, please understand my reasoning behind why it's on my B-List, and I will do my best to understand why it's on your A-List.
I have been harsh on DotA and it's little brothers (LoL, HoN, etc) before, but believe me, if I really didn't give a damn, I wouldn't even be harsh. I think some (and I understand why) people have pinned me as this person who is anti-DotA... but that is simply not the case.
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On August 03 2011 05:01 djWHEAT wrote:
In preparation for the upcoming LO3 discussion on DotA, I would appreciate it if the well versed members of the community (which many of you have demonstrated you are) could help answer the following questions. Keep in mind, these are not meant to be condescending or "set up" questions, after reading everything in this thread, these are the things I'm still a bit unsure about. Instead of making assumptions, I'd rather hear from you guys.
- Of the established leagues and competitions, who is the largest, what is the frequency of said events, and how much prize money has been given out (average) during these competitions?
- DotA is popular in Asia, so are a million really bad MMO's... what efforts have been made to bring DotA OUT of Asia to other countries? (i.e. GomTV began English broadcasting several years ago). Does it need to leave Asia?
- Who is the Day[9] of DotA?
- With such a popular community, teams, etc... why haven't we seen DotA showcased at well-known international eSports competitions? I know that it made some appearances at WCG, ESWC, and Blizzard events, but these were typically "one off" type competitions?
- Does the population of Chinese players (which sounds like it's the biggest landscape of players) rely on non-legit versions of WarCraft 3: TFT? I always felt like one of the biggest issues with the advancement of DotA dating back to like BlizzCon 2005 was the fact that new players had to purchase WC3... this was also a problem with games like Quake 3. I'm just curious how that works in China (and everywhere else for that matter)
- Is the DotA community satisfied living in a self-contained bubble? It seems like other eSports games/audiences are fairly uneducated when it comes to the history Rotegirte provided in this thread.
- Why do you think there are people (like myself) who have extensive knowledge in eSports, yet don't know much about DotA? Is this the fault of the individual? Or is it the fault of the collective DotA community? Or is there no fault at all and it's just two paths that have not crossed?
- If someone heard about DotA and wanted to get into it at the most basic level, which website would you send them to? If I had no one to ask, how hard would it be for me to find? Would it be PLAYDOTA.com?
- SC2 and Street Fighter 4 have been two games that have proven that they can carry an active audience of people who do not even play the game. Do you think this audience already exists in the DotA scene and if not, do you think it can?
A good chunk of that can come from GosuGamers.net and to the Day[9] question, the only person I can think of that comes close would be ObiWanKenobi
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Is there a DoTa equivalent of the Liquidpedia, that would be nice.
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A recent website which has appeared (with tobiwan casting) is http://www.joindota.com/ which casts a lot of recent dota games.
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DoTA games last way too long for my taste when it comes to spectating. The community has always been on the level of 4chan quality. It's a fun game to mess around in with friends though. I really don't see DoTA being a front runner of esports, there's entirely way too much going on under the hood while the game lasts 40 minutes.
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I didn't feel qualified to answer all the questions but here goes.
On August 03 2011 05:01 djWHEAT wrote:
- Who is the Day[9] of DotA?
Probably TobiWanKenobi
- Does the population of Chinese players (which sounds like it's the biggest landscape of players) rely on non-legit versions of WarCraft 3: TFT? I always felt like one of the biggest issues with the advancement of DotA dating back to like BlizzCon 2005 was the fact that new players had to purchase WC3... this was also a problem with games like Quake 3. I'm just curious how that works in China (and everywhere else for that matter)
Most people in Asia play on virtual LAN programs such as Garena which do not require a legitimate copy of the game. The majority of Asian players play on pirated versions of the game.
- If someone heard about DotA and wanted to get into it at the most basic level, which website would you send them to? If I had no one to ask, how hard would it be for me to find? Would it be PLAYDOTA.com?
Gosugamers is good, the old Dota-allstars site was good too but it was neglected and the domain was purchased by Valve.
- SC2 and Street Fighter 4 have been two games that have proven that they can carry an active audience of people who do not even play the game. Do you think this audience already exists in the DotA scene and if not, do you think it can?
It's tough since the game is more complex than SC2 from a spectator's perspective (you need to understand what each hero is capable of) but that can be learned. People already mentioned that Dota matches tend to be 40+ minutes long. Casting hasn't been popular in Dota until fairly recently. Most people used to watch pro games by downloading replays.
There are a few SC2 player who used to play DOTA professionally, giX (formerly VTgiX) was a Dota player a few years ago. If you know the manager of MYM you should ask him about their team. They have had a very successful Dota team for years. I know EG had a Dota team awhile back, not for long though.
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Wheat, not sure if anyone linked this here yet, but http://www.dotacommentaries.com/ is a great website. It seems like the site doing the most to push dota as an esport.
You'll definitely find the Day9 of dota there. I'm inclined to say it's Luminous. If you ever wanted a guest to come on and talk about the competitive scene, I'm sure he'd be a good choice. I think he has a pretty darn good following, plus he knows a lot about the Asian community.
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Wheat, i think you should post all those questions to the "official" Dota thread also. People might actually read it more than this.
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djwheat I would like to make a response to this which you posted:
Throwing money at something does not yield guarantee success. This Valve DotA2 thing is marketing. Don't call it anything else.
For starters, they are not throwing money at it to create success, it already has success, a multitude of success. It is not like BW/SC2 which a lot of uneducated people are perceiving it to be. It is not a new game, it is the same game with a better engine and better graphics. As DotA just became older and older due to the engine of WC3, people flocked to silly placeholders such as HoN and LoL until something could be done about it.
Therefore the money you say that is being 'thrown' at the game is completely justified in that it is just making sure people know that HoN/LoL were nice placeholders, but DotA is finally back and its time for it to be. And the marketing claim is just irrelevant.
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On August 03 2011 05:30 djWHEAT wrote:BTW, since everyone is quoting me on this: Show nested quote +I know you will disagree with me, but DotA has made ZERO advancement in terms of a globally popular spotlighted eSports title. I feel as if I need to provide more information. Although some of the information provided in this thread was very insightful and unknown to me, I do feel as if I'm aware of the popularity of DotA. With that being said, it was a pretty fucking stupid statement to make without putting context behind it. I have respect for any community which can sustain itself, teams, popularity, content, etc. However, many of you are in the DotA community, and have been for quite sometime. My focus has been in "eSports" as dictated by popular global events. These global events have maintained a fairly consistent game line-up for the past 12 years. The most prominent of these games (the A-Listers) include, Counter-Strike 1.6, Quake, StarCraft, and WC3. These are globally popular spotlighted eSports titles. The context to which I would like to add to the quote above is that I have never seen DotA consistently join the ranks the games mentioned above. And that is where my "Zero Advancement" came from. I would make the exact same statement about "Call of Duty", another game that is ridiculously popular, has an established team base, will be awarding 1mil to a team, yet it still seems foreign if Slasher reported CoD scores each week on Lo3. I'm not trying to shit on DotA or the community. I'm simply trying to explain why I personally (and I believe many others) see DotA as a "B-List" eSports title. (Hopefully I can change this perspective with some answers to the questions above). DotA is probably a A-List title to many of you, and I respect that, please understand my reasoning behind why it's on my B-List, and I will do my best to understand why it's on your A-List. I have been harsh on DotA and it's little brothers (LoL, HoN, etc) before, but believe me, if I really didn't give a damn, I wouldn't even be harsh. I think some (and I understand why) people have pinned me as this person who is anti-DotA... but that is simply not the case.
A lot of your questions can probably be answered at least partially by the fact that there are so little dota players right now in relation to the amount of LoL/HoN players, since so many non-competitive players have switched over that no longer really care about competitive dota. There are still plenty of pros around, but as we all know, without a sizable fanbase of people willing to watch an eSport, especially one like dota, it can't thrive at all.
By the way, I really appreciate you trying to get as much background information as possible before jumping into it. Just shows your dedication to the show.
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On August 03 2011 05:30 djWHEAT wrote:BTW, since everyone is quoting me on this: Show nested quote +I know you will disagree with me, but DotA has made ZERO advancement in terms of a globally popular spotlighted eSports title. I feel as if I need to provide more information. Although some of the information provided in this thread was very insightful and unknown to me, I do feel as if I'm aware of the popularity of DotA. With that being said, it was a pretty fucking stupid statement to make without putting context behind it. I have respect for any community which can sustain itself, teams, popularity, content, etc. However, many of you are in the DotA community, and have been for quite sometime. My focus has been in "eSports" as dictated by popular global events. These global events have maintained a fairly consistent game line-up for the past 12 years. The most prominent of these games (the A-Listers) include, Counter-Strike 1.6, Quake, StarCraft, and WC3. These are globally popular spotlighted eSports titles. The context to which I would like to add to the quote above is that I have never seen DotA consistently join the ranks the games mentioned above. And that is where my "Zero Advancement" came from. I would make the exact same statement about "Call of Duty", another game that is ridiculously popular, has an established team base, will be awarding 1mil to a team, yet it still seems foreign if Slasher reported CoD scores each week on Lo3. I'm not trying to shit on DotA or the community. I'm simply trying to explain why I personally (and I believe many others) see DotA as a "B-List" eSports title. (Hopefully I can change this perspective with some answers to the questions above). DotA is probably a A-List title to many of you, and I respect that, please understand my reasoning behind why it's on my B-List, and I will do my best to understand why it's on your A-List. I have been harsh on DotA and it's little brothers (LoL, HoN, etc) before, but believe me, if I really didn't give a damn, I wouldn't even be harsh. I think some (and I understand why) people have pinned me as this person who is anti-DotA... but that is simply not the case.
I think this is a very worthwhile line of discussion djWHEAT, especially when one considers how unprecedented the recent explosion in spectator e-sports is. I, for one, think that the mechanics of DotA and its clones leave a great deal to be desired in terms of excitement and watchability, while it seems clear that games like Sc2 and SF4 can be quite compelling from a spectator standpoint. To understand why some games are easier to take in and more enjoyable to watch, especially when it comes to e-sports, is to come that much closer to broaching the mainstream.
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On August 03 2011 05:42 Grettin wrote:
Wheat, i think you should post all those questions to the "official" Dota thread also. People might actually read it more than this.
Yeah, you're probably right unfortunately it becomes difficult for me to easily sort through all the answers/posts. I also hope to get answers based on the context of this thread...
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On August 03 2011 05:01 djWHEAT wrote:+ Show Spoiler +In preparation for the upcoming LO3 discussion on DotA, I would appreciate it if the well versed members of the community (which many of you have demonstrated you are) could help answer the following questions. Keep in mind, these are not meant to be condescending or "set up" questions, after reading everything in this thread, these are the things I'm still a bit unsure about. Instead of making assumptions, I'd rather hear from you guys.
You can also send your answers to: djWHEAT @ OneMoreGame.tv
- Of the established leagues and competitions, who is the largest, what is the frequency of said events, and how much prize money has been given out (average) during these competitions?
- DotA is popular in Asia, so are a million really bad MMO's... what efforts have been made to bring DotA OUT of Asia to other countries? (i.e. GomTV began English broadcasting several years ago). Does it need to leave Asia?
- Who is the Day[9] of DotA?
- With such a popular community, teams, etc... why haven't we seen DotA showcased at well-known international eSports competitions? I know that it made some appearances at WCG, ESWC, and Blizzard events, but these were typically "one off" type competitions?
- Does the population of Chinese players (which sounds like it's the biggest landscape of players) rely on non-legit versions of WarCraft 3: TFT? I always felt like one of the biggest issues with the advancement of DotA dating back to like BlizzCon 2005 was the fact that new players had to purchase WC3... this was also a problem with games like Quake 3. I'm just curious how that works in China (and everywhere else for that matter)
- Is the DotA community satisfied living in a self-contained bubble? It seems like other eSports games/audiences are fairly uneducated when it comes to the history Rotegirte provided in this thread.
- Why do you think there are people (like myself) who have extensive knowledge in eSports, yet don't know much about DotA? Is this the fault of the individual? Or is it the fault of the collective DotA community? Or is there no fault at all and it's just two paths that have not crossed?
- If someone heard about DotA and wanted to get into it at the most basic level, which website would you send them to? If I had no one to ask, how hard would it be for me to find? Would it be PLAYDOTA.com?
- SC2 and Street Fighter 4 have been two games that have proven that they can carry an active audience of people who do not even play the game. Do you think this audience already exists in the DotA scene and if not, do you think it can?
- Who is your favorite team?
- Which country do you believe has the largest population of players and fans?
- As a DotA fan, do you follow any other eSports titles? If so, which ones and how often?
I don't have any answers more significant than others will give, but as a BW/SC2 fan who's played DotA and its spinoffs casually for a few years, I appreciate the approach you've taken with this post and I'm just as eager to hear the answers as you are. I haven't bought into the hype ever since DotA 2 was even announced, but seeing the budding success of LoL and HoN as eSports I want to see what happens with DotA2 as much as anyone.
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Dota has gone way far concidering the fact that it just began as a simple custom map and it went to where it is thanks to the people who loved the game and the community. I really dont think that an other game was loved by so much people having nothing to gain from it in the early years of the game but pure fun !!!!!
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On August 03 2011 05:42 Cold-Blood wrote:
djwheat I would like to make a response to this which you posted:
Throwing money at something does not yield guarantee success. This Valve DotA2 thing is marketing. Don't call it anything else.
For starters, they are not throwing money at it to create success, it already has success, a multitude of success. It is not like BW/SC2 which a lot of uneducated people are perceiving it to be. It is not a new game, it is the same game with a better engine and better graphics. As DotA just became older and older due to the engine of WC3, people flocked to silly placeholders such as HoN and LoL until something could be done about it.
Therefore the money you say that is being 'thrown' at the game is completely justified in that it is just making sure people know that HoN/LoL were nice placeholders, but DotA is finally back and its time for it to be. And the marketing claim is just irrelevant.
Historically there have been AT LEAST 3 or 4 games which have attempted the "1 million dollar" prize to "entice" people to play the game. It is marketing.
I think anyone who knows what DotA2 stands for... probably realizes that this game could award a fart as a prize and it would still be successful.
They are not throwing money at it to create success in eSports. They are throwing money at it to create a successful product that people will play. It is marketing.
MARKETING: http://www.callofduty.com/xp/tournament
MARKETING: http://espn.go.com/espn/thelife/videogames/blog/_/name/thegamer/id/5994789
MARKETING: http://www.gotfrag.com/pk/story/6018/
Funny that all of these have 1 million dollars in common :D
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I asked a DotA/SF player this:
SC2 and Street Fighter 4 have been two games that have proven that they can carry an active audience of people who do not even play the game. Do you think this audience already exists in the DotA scene and if not, do you think it can?
He said:
I don't think so because DotA doesn't look impressive to those who don't know whats going on. If you don't have experience with the game you won't be able to tell just how crazy what the players are doing is. Kinda like that video of Daigo playing as Ken in third strike when he parries all of Chun-Li's hits for an amazing comeback. Although it's impressive no matter what, it's even more unbelievable when you've played the game and know how hard it is to get a perfect parry never mind like 10 in a row.
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On August 03 2011 05:01 djWHEAT wrote:
In preparation for the upcoming LO3 discussion on DotA, I would appreciate it if the well versed members of the community (which many of you have demonstrated you are) could help answer the following questions. Keep in mind, these are not meant to be condescending or "set up" questions, after reading everything in this thread, these are the things I'm still a bit unsure about. Instead of making assumptions, I'd rather hear from you guys.
- Of the established leagues and competitions, who is the largest, what is the frequency of said events, and how much prize money has been given out (average) during these competitions?
- DotA is popular in Asia, so are a million really bad MMO's... what efforts have been made to bring DotA OUT of Asia to other countries? (i.e. GomTV began English broadcasting several years ago). Does it need to leave Asia?
- Who is the Day[9] of DotA?
- With such a popular community, teams, etc... why haven't we seen DotA showcased at well-known international eSports competitions? I know that it made some appearances at WCG, ESWC, and Blizzard events, but these were typically "one off" type competitions?
- Does the population of Chinese players (which sounds like it's the biggest landscape of players) rely on non-legit versions of WarCraft 3: TFT? I always felt like one of the biggest issues with the advancement of DotA dating back to like BlizzCon 2005 was the fact that new players had to purchase WC3... this was also a problem with games like Quake 3. I'm just curious how that works in China (and everywhere else for that matter)
- Is the DotA community satisfied living in a self-contained bubble? It seems like other eSports games/audiences are fairly uneducated when it comes to the history Rotegirte provided in this thread.
- Why do you think there are people (like myself) who have extensive knowledge in eSports, yet don't know much about DotA? Is this the fault of the individual? Or is it the fault of the collective DotA community? Or is there no fault at all and it's just two paths that have not crossed?
- If someone heard about DotA and wanted to get into it at the most basic level, which website would you send them to? If I had no one to ask, how hard would it be for me to find? Would it be PLAYDOTA.com?
- SC2 and Street Fighter 4 have been two games that have proven that they can carry an active audience of people who do not even play the game. Do you think this audience already exists in the DotA scene and if not, do you think it can?
first of all, sorry for my bad english.
- Dota has a lot of leagues, you can say that dota is pretty much divided between china and the rest of the world. In china you have a huge league called g-league, and if I'm not mistaken the prize pool is around the 150k for the 1st place team. And it happens 2 times a year.
We also have big champs every year like
dota world cup
farm4fame
ESWC
ASUS
ESTC
CPL
SMM
- Nothing, Chineses just go to offline events and rapes all the other teams. Sometimes we have showmatches between chineses and europeans teams, but the lag always get on the way and we never have good games. We had a World cup last year, where all the best teams in the world went to china to play for a huge price pool. There were some interaction between china and the others, but nothing really great. :/
- Tobiwankenobi (caster) and Kuroky (player) for sure.
- We don't have dota at huge evets cause the first game is a WC3 MOD. Icefrog (current game desinger) did not have the support from blizzard and big companys like wcg would not put a mod game in their lineup. Tho dota was played on lasts years ESWC
- Yes, pretty much every single player on earth plays on non blizzard servers with non-legal copies.
- hmmmm. maybe. 50% of the dota community knows a lot of starcraft2/warcraft3/hon/lol. The other 50% just don't really know what e-sports actually are, and they just play the game for fun.
- first of all, The game itself is pretty hard, and the old players are not very nice with new guys that don't really know how to play it. and as the game is a MOD, we don't have tutorials and stuff like that to teach the new players the right way to play. This, a lot of times, depress the new player and makes them want to play another game/ hate dota. The comunity is full of jerks who thinks they are the best players in the world, lol. thats problably why. And also, dota is not on huge "we all know this event" like wcg and blizzcon, so if you really wanna know something about dota, you need toget into it, search by yourself.
- Playdota.com for sure.
- Yes. there are a LOT of dota fans, and when I mean a lot, I really mean it. of course, the most of it is locate on china, but here in brazil, europe and USA, we have a LOT of servers, and a lot of people watching pro games. I can tell you that dota hits 50-60k views on big tornaments streams and 70-90k on huge/unique tornamets. they just need sponsors and support. 
- CCM/GGnet
- China, FOR SURE.
- I stoped following dota cause sc2 came out. now I follow both.
hope it helps a little.
Thanks for everything you do for the sc2 community djwheat.
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EPT
