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On August 02 2011 21:15 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 21:11 gh0un wrote:
Pretty big blunder from wheat here, looks like he is completely in the dark about the dota numbers and the scene that is behind it.
Years ago (several YEARS), the game had already 12 million unique downloads per new map version.
(confirmed from one of the staff members on playdota.com).
Then icefrog came out and said that this didnt include the chinese people, which amount to 40-50% of the community.
This was several years ago.
Now with gabe newell probably having the exact numbers, he comes out and says "to enable the tens of millions of dota players all around the world to enable to watch the livestreams"...
He doesnt just come and pull numbers out of his ass dude.
They wouldnt put atleast 1 million dollar into it, if they didnt know exactly how big the dota scene is.
Dota 2 will not only leave LoL or HoN way behind, it will also leave sc2 way behind.
You heard it here first wheat.
I love your shows anyways, but that was a pretty big blunder. Dont worry he will cover dota when it's a legit competitive game. (his own wordS). Seriously add dota coverage to lo3. Not just the dota 2 upcoming event.
Yeah they should definitely make a show about it right now, not until after they can confirm whether its gonna make a splash or not.
Pointing out the obvious isnt as entertaining (or hard for that matter), as discussing it beforehand.
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On August 02 2011 21:14 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 21:11 gh0un wrote:
Pretty big blunder from wheat here, looks like he is completely in the dark about the dota numbers and the scene that is behind it.
Years ago (several YEARS), the game had already 12 million unique downloads per new map version.
(confirmed from one of the staff members on playdota.com).
Then icefrog came out and said that this didnt include the chinese people, which amount to 40-50% of the community.
This was several years ago.
Now with gabe newell probably having the exact numbers, he comes out and says "to enable the tens of millions of dota players all around the world to enable to watch the livestreams"...
He doesnt just come and pull numbers out of his ass dude.
They wouldnt put atleast 1 million dollar into it, if they didnt know exactly how big the dota scene is.
Dota 2 will not only leave LoL or HoN way behind, it will also leave sc2 way behind.
You heard it here first wheat.
I love your shows anyways, but that was a pretty big blunder. He is saying he wants to see it first to believe it. How is that a blunder. All Dota 2 is atm is massive hype. We haven't seen anything. When we see stuff than we can judge. BO has big numbers of people playing, doesn't make it an eSports game. Wheat just wants to see it in action and see the scene before jumping all over it like most of the people I see. They quote interviews with valve for evidence of how good a game Dota 2 is, which is saddening in itself. No one quotes Dustin's PR interviews as facts of how the game is and we actually play the game. Why should we blindly believe everything?
I can only speak on my behalf, but I am not getting worked up over the fact that he is sceptical about Dota 2. Of course, no one knows for sure right now. Valve's moves may very well be bold if not questionable. There is indeed a risk of inflation and buying the pig in a poke when investing in a game that hasn't even been released yet. All that is fine with me, Wheat saying "hold on, I guess we'll have to see how that goes". At this point, he is a man of reason, historically versed and outspoken. That is what I really love him for.
What I don't agree with is his years long bitching about the existing Dota 1 scene. Despite being a mere mod it accomplished great things and sustained itself without any artificial help. That of all things we praise about the KR esports culture it has come closest to that way before the other non-BW games he listed.
I am very specifically pissed about following statement that he still maintains as to this date:
On July 22 2011 01:27 djWHEAT wrote:
I will wait for the episode after DotA actually proves itself as a legitimate competitive game that organizations want to support via tournaments, teams, etc.
I know you will disagree with me, but DotA has made ZERO advancement in terms of a globally popular spotlighted eSports title.
-salaried teams living together being coached by former pro-players
-a tv channel showing dota
-players doing commercials
-tournament play ranging from 5k to 40k USD, including prestigious LANs and online seasons
-a thriving community all over the world (except for NA)
That are facts that aren't pulled out of any corporate's ass. Going back to the first relaunch of Lo3 3 years ago, all this has already been in place, and still exists until today. Yet he goes out of his way to reiterate how illegitimate the scene is, disregarding that Dota has managed not only to survive but stabilize and even grow in the asian market, while his beloved Q3 and CS1.6 are in danger of fading out.
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On August 02 2011 21:11 gh0un wrote:
The reason for this is pretty simple. Dota 1 is just a map modification for wc3.
Not only are there technical limitations that prevent a good coverage of games, but there are also limitations that are beyond game related stuff, like wc3 actually belonging to blizzard, and not icefrog (or valve now).
That doesnt mean that there isnt a huge scene behind closed doors.
Whats happening behind that door is only known to those that actually are involved in the dota scene.
It's sad though Blizzard could've supported DotA long ago just like Valve supported CS it was also just a map modification for the half life engine.
anyway we now got Valve supporting it instead and I couldn't be happier Blizzard seems a bit off nowdays like Bnet 2.0 still being total shite etc is baffling to me.
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The son of the richest man in china just bought one of the best chinese dota teams along with their SC2/etc rosters for a very large fee. CCM is now IG
With the news about the big prize of dota2 showmatch, Chinese dota scene also has an important event today. A rich man named Sicong Wang purchases the entire CCM clan including its sc2, dota and war3 department, and thus CCM is renamed to IG(Invictus Gaming) now. Rumors said Sicong Wang takes 40,000,000 RMB to buy CCM, and this is just his first step to join Chinese esports. source: http://dota.178.com/201108/106254967117.
40 mil RMB ~ 6.2 mill USD
Can't wait for dota to be considered a competitive game so it can get coverage on Lo3.
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On August 02 2011 22:11 rotegirte wrote:
What I don't agree with is his years long bitching about the existing Dota 1 scene. Despite being a mere mod it accomplished great things and sustained itself without any artificial help. That of all things we praise about the KR esports culture it has come closest to that way before the other non-BW games he listed.
Fair enough. I don't know much about the current dota scene outside of my country. I just don't like all the praise for a game/scene that isn't out yet.
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On August 02 2011 22:40 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 22:11 rotegirte wrote:
What I don't agree with is his years long bitching about the existing Dota 1 scene. Despite being a mere mod it accomplished great things and sustained itself without any artificial help. That of all things we praise about the KR esports culture it has come closest to that way before the other non-BW games he listed.
Fair enough. I don't know much about the current dota scene outside of my country. I just don't like all the praise for a game/scene that isn't out yet.
The game and the scene is already out, what are you talking about?
The game is dota 1 and the scene is actually bigger than all the other scenes there are out there.
It was just that there was no company to support the game, it was self supported by the community and the scene, thus its unkown to those that arent involved with the scene, or dont follow it closely.
You saw what happened when companies took the dota gameplay, and stripped it free from its wc3 limitations (good lobby system, player support, matchmaking, better replay system, no lag during game (and much more), all of which are pretty much non existant in the wc3 engine), didnt you?
The results are called LoL and HoN. These are basically dota, without the wc3 limitations and restrictions, while (and this is the most important part) having worse/less competitive gameplay.
Anyone arguing that LoL and HoN arent clones of DotA dont have a clue.
One of the creators of LoL (Guinsoo or was it Euls?) was actually once one of the guys that worked on DotA, back when the game was still shit, until Icefrog came and took it into his hands.
There is even an item in DotA that is called after him from back then (Guinsoos scythe of vyse or Euls scepter of divinity (both were involved with dota, dont know which one it is that is now working on LoL).
Now the real game will be freed from those limitations and look at what is happening within one day.
The richest man in china immediately buys a pro dota team for 6 million dollars?
Dota 2 is dota 1 without its flaws that are tied to the wc3 engine. The scene is already there, the game will be exactly the same.
The playerbase is already there, and in case you missed the numbers from above, probably bigger than all of the other playerbases put together.
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Wheat, I've defended you from every hater that has ever hated on you in public private or online, but I really can't believe you haven't done any research into the DotA scene...
It's certainly off the NA's radar but to be honest there is no excuse for this kind of empty handed bashing. You got more esports cred then almost everyone working in the business today. Please don't make me hate you.
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On August 02 2011 23:14 gh0un wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 22:40 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 22:11 rotegirte wrote:
What I don't agree with is his years long bitching about the existing Dota 1 scene. Despite being a mere mod it accomplished great things and sustained itself without any artificial help. That of all things we praise about the KR esports culture it has come closest to that way before the other non-BW games he listed.
Fair enough. I don't know much about the current dota scene outside of my country. I just don't like all the praise for a game/scene that isn't out yet. The game and the scene is already out, what are you talking about? The game is dota 1 and the scene is actually bigger than all the other scenes there are out there. It was just that there was no company to support the game, it was self supported by the community and the scene, thus its unkown to those that arent involved with the scene, or dont follow it closely. You saw what happened when companies took the dota gameplay, and stripped it free from its wc3 limitations (good lobby system, player support, matchmaking, better replay system, no lag during game (and much more), all of which are pretty much non existant in the wc3 engine), didnt you? They are called LoL and HoN. These are basically dota, without the wc3 limitations and restrictions, while (and this is the most important part) having worse/less competitive gameplay. Now the real game will be freed from those limitations and look at what is happening within one day. The richest man in china immediately buys a pro dota team for 6 million dollars? Dota 2 is dota 1 without its flaws that are tied to the wc3 engine. The scene is already there, the game will be exactly the same. The playerbase is already there, and in case you missed the numbers from above, probably bigger than all of the other playerbases put together.
Have you played this game or is there actual gameplay footage to confirm this? I have seen anything hence my saying it doesn't exist yet. Just seems a lot of "what it will do" then basing facts off that. If there is actual gameplay etc. then I take that back but from the outside that is what appears to be happening.
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So is Dota 2 basically Dota 1.5? Sort of like SC2BW? I played a bit of Dota in my time but just found it too long (45 mins) to complete a game.
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On August 02 2011 23:19 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:14 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 22:40 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 22:11 rotegirte wrote:
What I don't agree with is his years long bitching about the existing Dota 1 scene. Despite being a mere mod it accomplished great things and sustained itself without any artificial help. That of all things we praise about the KR esports culture it has come closest to that way before the other non-BW games he listed.
Fair enough. I don't know much about the current dota scene outside of my country. I just don't like all the praise for a game/scene that isn't out yet. The game and the scene is already out, what are you talking about? The game is dota 1 and the scene is actually bigger than all the other scenes there are out there. It was just that there was no company to support the game, it was self supported by the community and the scene, thus its unkown to those that arent involved with the scene, or dont follow it closely. You saw what happened when companies took the dota gameplay, and stripped it free from its wc3 limitations (good lobby system, player support, matchmaking, better replay system, no lag during game (and much more), all of which are pretty much non existant in the wc3 engine), didnt you? They are called LoL and HoN. These are basically dota, without the wc3 limitations and restrictions, while (and this is the most important part) having worse/less competitive gameplay. Now the real game will be freed from those limitations and look at what is happening within one day. The richest man in china immediately buys a pro dota team for 6 million dollars? Dota 2 is dota 1 without its flaws that are tied to the wc3 engine. The scene is already there, the game will be exactly the same. The playerbase is already there, and in case you missed the numbers from above, probably bigger than all of the other playerbases put together. Have you played this game or is there actual gameplay footage to confirm this? I have seen anything hence my saying it doesn't exist yet. Just seems a lot of "what it will do" then basing facts off that. If there is actual gameplay etc. then I take that back but from the outside that is what appears to be happening.
I am playing this game every day since it came out several, several years ago. Then came along LoL and HoN, i played those two aswell.
While the removed limitations are very nice and important for the game, the gameplay is worse in both clones, thus i returned to DotA.
I am closely following the scene and it is definitely bigger than any other scene.
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On August 02 2011 23:22 gh0un wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:19 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 23:14 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 22:40 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 22:11 rotegirte wrote:
What I don't agree with is his years long bitching about the existing Dota 1 scene. Despite being a mere mod it accomplished great things and sustained itself without any artificial help. That of all things we praise about the KR esports culture it has come closest to that way before the other non-BW games he listed.
Fair enough. I don't know much about the current dota scene outside of my country. I just don't like all the praise for a game/scene that isn't out yet. The game and the scene is already out, what are you talking about? The game is dota 1 and the scene is actually bigger than all the other scenes there are out there. It was just that there was no company to support the game, it was self supported by the community and the scene, thus its unkown to those that arent involved with the scene, or dont follow it closely. You saw what happened when companies took the dota gameplay, and stripped it free from its wc3 limitations (good lobby system, player support, matchmaking, better replay system, no lag during game (and much more), all of which are pretty much non existant in the wc3 engine), didnt you? They are called LoL and HoN. These are basically dota, without the wc3 limitations and restrictions, while (and this is the most important part) having worse/less competitive gameplay. Now the real game will be freed from those limitations and look at what is happening within one day. The richest man in china immediately buys a pro dota team for 6 million dollars? Dota 2 is dota 1 without its flaws that are tied to the wc3 engine. The scene is already there, the game will be exactly the same. The playerbase is already there, and in case you missed the numbers from above, probably bigger than all of the other playerbases put together. Have you played this game or is there actual gameplay footage to confirm this? I have seen anything hence my saying it doesn't exist yet. Just seems a lot of "what it will do" then basing facts off that. If there is actual gameplay etc. then I take that back but from the outside that is what appears to be happening. I am playing this game every day since it came out several, several years ago. Then came along LoL and HoN, i played those two aswell. While the removed limitations are very nice and important for the game, the gameplay is worse in both clones, thus i returned to DotA. I am closely following the scene and it is definitely bigger than any other scene.
Dota 2 isn't out yet, how have you been playing it for several years? I'm asking how you can claim Dota 2 will just be like Dota but with better features? and no you can't quote PR interview.
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On August 02 2011 23:25 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:22 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 23:19 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 23:14 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 22:40 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 22:11 rotegirte wrote:
What I don't agree with is his years long bitching about the existing Dota 1 scene. Despite being a mere mod it accomplished great things and sustained itself without any artificial help. That of all things we praise about the KR esports culture it has come closest to that way before the other non-BW games he listed.
Fair enough. I don't know much about the current dota scene outside of my country. I just don't like all the praise for a game/scene that isn't out yet. The game and the scene is already out, what are you talking about? The game is dota 1 and the scene is actually bigger than all the other scenes there are out there. It was just that there was no company to support the game, it was self supported by the community and the scene, thus its unkown to those that arent involved with the scene, or dont follow it closely. You saw what happened when companies took the dota gameplay, and stripped it free from its wc3 limitations (good lobby system, player support, matchmaking, better replay system, no lag during game (and much more), all of which are pretty much non existant in the wc3 engine), didnt you? They are called LoL and HoN. These are basically dota, without the wc3 limitations and restrictions, while (and this is the most important part) having worse/less competitive gameplay. Now the real game will be freed from those limitations and look at what is happening within one day. The richest man in china immediately buys a pro dota team for 6 million dollars? Dota 2 is dota 1 without its flaws that are tied to the wc3 engine. The scene is already there, the game will be exactly the same. The playerbase is already there, and in case you missed the numbers from above, probably bigger than all of the other playerbases put together. Have you played this game or is there actual gameplay footage to confirm this? I have seen anything hence my saying it doesn't exist yet. Just seems a lot of "what it will do" then basing facts off that. If there is actual gameplay etc. then I take that back but from the outside that is what appears to be happening. I am playing this game every day since it came out several, several years ago. Then came along LoL and HoN, i played those two aswell. While the removed limitations are very nice and important for the game, the gameplay is worse in both clones, thus i returned to DotA. I am closely following the scene and it is definitely bigger than any other scene. Dota 2 isn't out yet, how have you been playing it for several years? I'm asking how you can claim Dota 2 will just be like Dota but with better features?
Obviously im talking about DotA 1.
Why i know that it is going to be the EXACT same gameplay? Because Icefrog (the creator of DotA and now lead designer at valve for DotA 2), is actually talking to his playerbase and he already answered questions regarding that matter.
I have had a few conversations with him myself and its pretty clear that is going to be exactly the same gameplay wise.
Im pretty sure you could go send him a PM right now and he would answer it as soon as he logs into his playdota account. Thats what kind of man he is, an awesome man, thats why valve decided to put the whole process of creating DotA 2, into Icefrogs hands, and made him lead designer.
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On August 02 2011 23:28 gh0un wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:25 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 23:22 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 23:19 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 23:14 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 22:40 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 22:11 rotegirte wrote:
What I don't agree with is his years long bitching about the existing Dota 1 scene. Despite being a mere mod it accomplished great things and sustained itself without any artificial help. That of all things we praise about the KR esports culture it has come closest to that way before the other non-BW games he listed.
Fair enough. I don't know much about the current dota scene outside of my country. I just don't like all the praise for a game/scene that isn't out yet. The game and the scene is already out, what are you talking about? The game is dota 1 and the scene is actually bigger than all the other scenes there are out there. It was just that there was no company to support the game, it was self supported by the community and the scene, thus its unkown to those that arent involved with the scene, or dont follow it closely. You saw what happened when companies took the dota gameplay, and stripped it free from its wc3 limitations (good lobby system, player support, matchmaking, better replay system, no lag during game (and much more), all of which are pretty much non existant in the wc3 engine), didnt you? They are called LoL and HoN. These are basically dota, without the wc3 limitations and restrictions, while (and this is the most important part) having worse/less competitive gameplay. Now the real game will be freed from those limitations and look at what is happening within one day. The richest man in china immediately buys a pro dota team for 6 million dollars? Dota 2 is dota 1 without its flaws that are tied to the wc3 engine. The scene is already there, the game will be exactly the same. The playerbase is already there, and in case you missed the numbers from above, probably bigger than all of the other playerbases put together. Have you played this game or is there actual gameplay footage to confirm this? I have seen anything hence my saying it doesn't exist yet. Just seems a lot of "what it will do" then basing facts off that. If there is actual gameplay etc. then I take that back but from the outside that is what appears to be happening. I am playing this game every day since it came out several, several years ago. Then came along LoL and HoN, i played those two aswell. While the removed limitations are very nice and important for the game, the gameplay is worse in both clones, thus i returned to DotA. I am closely following the scene and it is definitely bigger than any other scene. Dota 2 isn't out yet, how have you been playing it for several years? I'm asking how you can claim Dota 2 will just be like Dota but with better features? Obviously im talking about DotA 1. Why i know that it is going to be the EXACT same gameplay? Because Icefrog (the creator of DotA and now lead designer at valve for DotA 2), is actually talking to his playerbase and he already answered questions regarding that matter. I have had a few conversations with him myself and its pretty clear that is going to be exactly the same gameplay wise.
Ok so there's no real gameplay proof. I was just wondering if it had been shown before since everyone acts as if it has. Gamescon is it. Hope it does well.
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On August 02 2011 23:31 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:28 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 23:25 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 23:22 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 23:19 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 23:14 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 22:40 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 22:11 rotegirte wrote:
What I don't agree with is his years long bitching about the existing Dota 1 scene. Despite being a mere mod it accomplished great things and sustained itself without any artificial help. That of all things we praise about the KR esports culture it has come closest to that way before the other non-BW games he listed.
Fair enough. I don't know much about the current dota scene outside of my country. I just don't like all the praise for a game/scene that isn't out yet. The game and the scene is already out, what are you talking about? The game is dota 1 and the scene is actually bigger than all the other scenes there are out there. It was just that there was no company to support the game, it was self supported by the community and the scene, thus its unkown to those that arent involved with the scene, or dont follow it closely. You saw what happened when companies took the dota gameplay, and stripped it free from its wc3 limitations (good lobby system, player support, matchmaking, better replay system, no lag during game (and much more), all of which are pretty much non existant in the wc3 engine), didnt you? They are called LoL and HoN. These are basically dota, without the wc3 limitations and restrictions, while (and this is the most important part) having worse/less competitive gameplay. Now the real game will be freed from those limitations and look at what is happening within one day. The richest man in china immediately buys a pro dota team for 6 million dollars? Dota 2 is dota 1 without its flaws that are tied to the wc3 engine. The scene is already there, the game will be exactly the same. The playerbase is already there, and in case you missed the numbers from above, probably bigger than all of the other playerbases put together. Have you played this game or is there actual gameplay footage to confirm this? I have seen anything hence my saying it doesn't exist yet. Just seems a lot of "what it will do" then basing facts off that. If there is actual gameplay etc. then I take that back but from the outside that is what appears to be happening. I am playing this game every day since it came out several, several years ago. Then came along LoL and HoN, i played those two aswell. While the removed limitations are very nice and important for the game, the gameplay is worse in both clones, thus i returned to DotA. I am closely following the scene and it is definitely bigger than any other scene. Dota 2 isn't out yet, how have you been playing it for several years? I'm asking how you can claim Dota 2 will just be like Dota but with better features? Obviously im talking about DotA 1. Why i know that it is going to be the EXACT same gameplay? Because Icefrog (the creator of DotA and now lead designer at valve for DotA 2), is actually talking to his playerbase and he already answered questions regarding that matter. I have had a few conversations with him myself and its pretty clear that is going to be exactly the same gameplay wise. Ok so there's no real gameplay proof. I was just wondering if it had been shown before since everyone acts as if it has. Gamescon is it. Hope it does well.
They are inviting top DotA 1 proteams to compete in a DotA 2 tournament, even though the game isnt out yet.
Isnt that a big hint that the gameplay is exactly the same (even though Icefrog himself already told us that it is?).
How exactly can they be pro at a game that isnt out yet? Whats the answer to that question?
There is your answer.
By the way, another great thing about DotA is its almost perfect immunity to volatility.
In 95% of the cases, the better team will win, which is exactly one of the defining factors of a competitive game: the better player/team wins.
Sc2, which by many is called volatile (even the korean pros), is still good enough in that department to be one of the best esports titles, i cant even begin to imagine how much better DotA will be.
The reason for this, is that it is a 5v5 game and has a very good balance.
Basically its the same reason why team based sports (like soccer and basketball etc) are much less volatile aswell... one mistake of a player doesnt win or lose you the game.
The games go long enough to allow the better team to catch up in case one of them has made a mistake during the early game and put them at a disadvantage.
Overall skill of the whole team decides whether you win the game or not.
All-ins or cheeses are basically non existant.
edit:
There is a timeline you can follow at how everything began regarding DotA2 (back when Icefrog was just a modder and had nothing to do with valve), at his blog on playdota:
Here is the blog entry when he first announced that he was going to work together with valve on a possible DotA2:
http://www.playdota.com/forums/blogs/icefrog/264/great-news-dota-fans/
"My goal and top priority in the future is to solve the surrounding issues that affect the DotA experience in order to allow it to reach new heights. Addressing these issues will enable us to further enjoy aspects of DotA such as the gameplay, mechanics, and in-game feel that currently work well and ought to be maintained. As I've said many times in the past and especially after today's developments, I am very excited about DotA's future!"
Out to be maintained. And thats a very, very old blog entry.
Now there is the more up to date valve blog (blog.dota2.com), where they reiterate what he said back then. The gameplay will be maintained, thats what is making DotA, DotA... the gameplay.
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On August 02 2011 23:31 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:28 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 23:25 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 23:22 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 23:19 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 23:14 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 22:40 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 22:11 rotegirte wrote:
What I don't agree with is his years long bitching about the existing Dota 1 scene. Despite being a mere mod it accomplished great things and sustained itself without any artificial help. That of all things we praise about the KR esports culture it has come closest to that way before the other non-BW games he listed.
Fair enough. I don't know much about the current dota scene outside of my country. I just don't like all the praise for a game/scene that isn't out yet. The game and the scene is already out, what are you talking about? The game is dota 1 and the scene is actually bigger than all the other scenes there are out there. It was just that there was no company to support the game, it was self supported by the community and the scene, thus its unkown to those that arent involved with the scene, or dont follow it closely. You saw what happened when companies took the dota gameplay, and stripped it free from its wc3 limitations (good lobby system, player support, matchmaking, better replay system, no lag during game (and much more), all of which are pretty much non existant in the wc3 engine), didnt you? They are called LoL and HoN. These are basically dota, without the wc3 limitations and restrictions, while (and this is the most important part) having worse/less competitive gameplay. Now the real game will be freed from those limitations and look at what is happening within one day. The richest man in china immediately buys a pro dota team for 6 million dollars? Dota 2 is dota 1 without its flaws that are tied to the wc3 engine. The scene is already there, the game will be exactly the same. The playerbase is already there, and in case you missed the numbers from above, probably bigger than all of the other playerbases put together. Have you played this game or is there actual gameplay footage to confirm this? I have seen anything hence my saying it doesn't exist yet. Just seems a lot of "what it will do" then basing facts off that. If there is actual gameplay etc. then I take that back but from the outside that is what appears to be happening. I am playing this game every day since it came out several, several years ago. Then came along LoL and HoN, i played those two aswell. While the removed limitations are very nice and important for the game, the gameplay is worse in both clones, thus i returned to DotA. I am closely following the scene and it is definitely bigger than any other scene. Dota 2 isn't out yet, how have you been playing it for several years? I'm asking how you can claim Dota 2 will just be like Dota but with better features? Obviously im talking about DotA 1. Why i know that it is going to be the EXACT same gameplay? Because Icefrog (the creator of DotA and now lead designer at valve for DotA 2), is actually talking to his playerbase and he already answered questions regarding that matter. I have had a few conversations with him myself and its pretty clear that is going to be exactly the same gameplay wise. Ok so there's no real gameplay proof. I was just wondering if it had been shown before since everyone acts as if it has. Gamescon is it. Hope it does well.
You are technically correct. But esports figures like SirScoots, djWheat, Jason Lake, Artosis, etc. have been rightfully preaching over and over again, that you should not forget about the history of things. Jason Lake in his recent interview at Anaheim telling anecdotes about people complaining "Why is Complexity abbreviated with coL? that's retarded!". Many things in esports come with a certain heritage. A heritage that in rare occasions rises to the unprecedented height and impact of a man named Lim Yo Hwan. What you see today is nothing but the result of a lot of people working very hard to get where we are today.
Icefrog's heritage is his interaction with the community. His accomplishment being taking over a random custom map and refining it to a level where millions of people enjoy playing it, become passionate to explore it thoroughly yet still not hitting any sort of ceiling. All of this work has been done voluntarily out of love and dedication to the scene itself. Dota has one of the most truculent and vicious communities there is. And still, it prevailed and evolved through every new map iteration and kept nothing but growing, outliving its "original host" WC3. So Icefrog has to have done something right. In fact, he did something AAA+ corporations still fail to do up to this date. Being in touch with your players, everyone from scrub to professional, whilst maintaining a decisive hand over the future developtment and making the right decisions on his own. It is a strange relationship that has been satirically pictured:
+ Show Spoiler +
Do note, that even having started his work at Valve, the recent map version is being praised as one of the best ever. You do have your day-to-day rants and complaints, but it is one of the very few occasions, where the most recent map has been declared stable for tournament use, critically acclaimed throughout public as well as competitive play. He cares.
edit: I would like to close out on the following words
You are right, Wheat is right. No one knows the future. I hear the concerns, there is absolutely no guarantee that Dota 2 will take off were Dota 1 left. 1Mio is a marketing stunt, though wisely spent. Because it is not the amount of money that buys the hype. 16 of the best teams of the world duking it out at LAN, we also have our western heroes. Pitted against nearly unbeatable chinese domination. We have our own storylines, rivalries, friendships, pride. That is what makes me jump at the very thought of it. Wheat has never said it outright, and I won't put words in his mouth, but I will say this: I personally believe that it is more or less an all-in by Valve, IF and us as community. One can not imagine the consequences in case the whole thing fails big time. No, not in terms of the mainstream. But up and foremost regarding the gameplay. This will be the crucial part.
But in this discussion I felt the need to stand up and tell the story, that whether you see us as a niché bunch of wierdos or not, that we are in fact not that small of a community. A lot of people care about that game and worked hard without any help from anyone. Valve has yet to proove themselves. But there is more to Dota, if you have been truly involved.
It has never been my intention to attack you Wheat on a personal level. In case I did cross the line at some point, I apologize for it. I understand I cannot possibly know, how deep your knowledge really runs. Please bear with me, since I only commented on the statements that were visible to me. I appreciate your work and passion and your opinions matter to me exactly because of it. I share your concerns, but there is a point were everybody has to make a guess. And from what I have experienced from being in that scene, I choose the optimistic one.
Anyone feel free to go through my post history, as I have made several in this thread. That's all I wanted to contribute.
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On August 03 2011 00:06 rotegirte wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:31 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 23:28 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 23:25 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 23:22 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 23:19 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 23:14 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 22:40 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 22:11 rotegirte wrote:
What I don't agree with is his years long bitching about the existing Dota 1 scene. Despite being a mere mod it accomplished great things and sustained itself without any artificial help. That of all things we praise about the KR esports culture it has come closest to that way before the other non-BW games he listed.
Fair enough. I don't know much about the current dota scene outside of my country. I just don't like all the praise for a game/scene that isn't out yet. The game and the scene is already out, what are you talking about? The game is dota 1 and the scene is actually bigger than all the other scenes there are out there. It was just that there was no company to support the game, it was self supported by the community and the scene, thus its unkown to those that arent involved with the scene, or dont follow it closely. You saw what happened when companies took the dota gameplay, and stripped it free from its wc3 limitations (good lobby system, player support, matchmaking, better replay system, no lag during game (and much more), all of which are pretty much non existant in the wc3 engine), didnt you? They are called LoL and HoN. These are basically dota, without the wc3 limitations and restrictions, while (and this is the most important part) having worse/less competitive gameplay. Now the real game will be freed from those limitations and look at what is happening within one day. The richest man in china immediately buys a pro dota team for 6 million dollars? Dota 2 is dota 1 without its flaws that are tied to the wc3 engine. The scene is already there, the game will be exactly the same. The playerbase is already there, and in case you missed the numbers from above, probably bigger than all of the other playerbases put together. Have you played this game or is there actual gameplay footage to confirm this? I have seen anything hence my saying it doesn't exist yet. Just seems a lot of "what it will do" then basing facts off that. If there is actual gameplay etc. then I take that back but from the outside that is what appears to be happening. I am playing this game every day since it came out several, several years ago. Then came along LoL and HoN, i played those two aswell. While the removed limitations are very nice and important for the game, the gameplay is worse in both clones, thus i returned to DotA. I am closely following the scene and it is definitely bigger than any other scene. Dota 2 isn't out yet, how have you been playing it for several years? I'm asking how you can claim Dota 2 will just be like Dota but with better features? Obviously im talking about DotA 1. Why i know that it is going to be the EXACT same gameplay? Because Icefrog (the creator of DotA and now lead designer at valve for DotA 2), is actually talking to his playerbase and he already answered questions regarding that matter. I have had a few conversations with him myself and its pretty clear that is going to be exactly the same gameplay wise. Ok so there's no real gameplay proof. I was just wondering if it had been shown before since everyone acts as if it has. Gamescon is it. Hope it does well. You are technically correct. But esports figures like SirScoots, djWheat, Jason Lake, Artosis, etc. have been rightfully preaching over and over again, that you should not forget about the history of things. Jason Lake in his recent interview at Anaheim telling anecdotes about people complaining "why is complexity abbreviated with coL? that's retarded!". Many things in esports come with a certain heritage. A heritage that in rare occasions rises to the unprecedented height and impact of a man named Lim Yo Hwan. What you see today is nothing but the result of a lot of people working very hard to get where we are today. Icefrog's heritage is his interaction with the community. His accomplishment being taking over a random custom map and refining it to a level where millions of people enjoy playing it, become passionate to explore it thoroughly yet still not hitting any sort of ceiling. All of this work has been done voluntarily out of love and dedication to the scene itself. Dota has one of the most truculent and vicious communities there is. And still, it prevailed and evolved through every new map iteration and kept nothing but growing, outliving its "original host" WC3. So Icefrog has to have done something right. In fact, he did something AAA+ corporations still fail to do up to this date. Being in touch with your players, everyone from scrub to professional, whilst maintaining a decisive hand over the future developtment and making the right decisions on his own. It is a strange relationship that has been satirically pictured: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NtgBK.gif) Do note, that even having started his work at Valve, the recent map version is being praised as one of the best ever. You do have your day-to-day rants and complaints, but it is one of the very few occasions, where the most recent map has been declared stable for tournament use, critically acclaimed throughout public as well as competitive play. You are right, no one knows the future. But there is more to Dota, if you have been truly involved.
Haha thanks man, totally forgot about picture xD
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Edit: god dammit, hitting wrong buttons left and right. Sry.
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Wheat has had a rough last two weeks 
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On August 02 2011 09:17 rotegirte wrote:
Great DotA History
Who is the ambassador for this game that is pushing it to the masses? I'm desperately trying to find out, because I feel after reading everything you provided (which was great) that he/she doesn't exist?
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On August 02 2011 23:25 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 23:22 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 23:19 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 23:14 gh0un wrote:On August 02 2011 22:40 Numy wrote:On August 02 2011 22:11 rotegirte wrote:
What I don't agree with is his years long bitching about the existing Dota 1 scene. Despite being a mere mod it accomplished great things and sustained itself without any artificial help. That of all things we praise about the KR esports culture it has come closest to that way before the other non-BW games he listed.
Fair enough. I don't know much about the current dota scene outside of my country. I just don't like all the praise for a game/scene that isn't out yet. The game and the scene is already out, what are you talking about? The game is dota 1 and the scene is actually bigger than all the other scenes there are out there. It was just that there was no company to support the game, it was self supported by the community and the scene, thus its unkown to those that arent involved with the scene, or dont follow it closely. You saw what happened when companies took the dota gameplay, and stripped it free from its wc3 limitations (good lobby system, player support, matchmaking, better replay system, no lag during game (and much more), all of which are pretty much non existant in the wc3 engine), didnt you? They are called LoL and HoN. These are basically dota, without the wc3 limitations and restrictions, while (and this is the most important part) having worse/less competitive gameplay. Now the real game will be freed from those limitations and look at what is happening within one day. The richest man in china immediately buys a pro dota team for 6 million dollars? Dota 2 is dota 1 without its flaws that are tied to the wc3 engine. The scene is already there, the game will be exactly the same. The playerbase is already there, and in case you missed the numbers from above, probably bigger than all of the other playerbases put together. Have you played this game or is there actual gameplay footage to confirm this? I have seen anything hence my saying it doesn't exist yet. Just seems a lot of "what it will do" then basing facts off that. If there is actual gameplay etc. then I take that back but from the outside that is what appears to be happening. I am playing this game every day since it came out several, several years ago. Then came along LoL and HoN, i played those two aswell. While the removed limitations are very nice and important for the game, the gameplay is worse in both clones, thus i returned to DotA. I am closely following the scene and it is definitely bigger than any other scene. Dota 2 isn't out yet, how have you been playing it for several years? I'm asking how you can claim Dota 2 will just be like Dota but with better features? and no you can't quote PR interview.
Another thing is a lot of the the beta patch notes have been leaked by valve and there is not a single balance change listed if they were changing the gameplay they'd probably have to do some of those. It's just bug fixes and adding in heros and abilities from dota 1.
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EPT
