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On June 22 2011 07:20 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 07:11 SuperStyle wrote:On June 22 2011 07:02 windsupernova wrote:
Well, since the OP got it wrong here are the Win percentages
PvZ:46.51 %
TvZ: 43.21%
TvP:46%
I wonder how many people will claim T are broken before they read the thread LOL
IMO things seem quite balanced, its a shame that the QQing never seems to stop. So thats how balance looks like, zergs having winning percentage against every other race by a high margin, good to know. However looking at every tournament around things do look balanced, but i dont see how you can say that things look balanced looking just at MLG. The only thing you can conclude from this is that given the pool of Terran and Zerg players that played at MLG, the zerg players will win more often than the terran players on average. That's the only thing you can say. The disparity in quality of players between races, especially given that there are many more terran players playing than any other race, allows you to draw no conclusion on "balance"
The stats show the matchups win percentages, not individual races win percentages. Please read the information correctly before posting.
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I'd like to see the stats for only the top 20 players tbh
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On June 22 2011 07:27 andeh wrote:
Is that apm ingame apm or 1.4(real) apm?
In-game APM.
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On June 22 2011 07:30 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 07:20 worldsnap wrote:On June 22 2011 07:11 SuperStyle wrote:On June 22 2011 07:02 windsupernova wrote:
Well, since the OP got it wrong here are the Win percentages
PvZ:46.51 %
TvZ: 43.21%
TvP:46%
I wonder how many people will claim T are broken before they read the thread LOL
IMO things seem quite balanced, its a shame that the QQing never seems to stop. So thats how balance looks like, zergs having winning percentage against every other race by a high margin, good to know. However looking at every tournament around things do look balanced, but i dont see how you can say that things look balanced looking just at MLG. The only thing you can conclude from this is that given the pool of Terran and Zerg players that played at MLG, the zerg players will win more often than the terran players on average. That's the only thing you can say. The disparity in quality of players between races, especially given that there are many more terran players playing than any other race, allows you to draw no conclusion on "balance" The stats show the matchups win percentages, not individual races win percentages. Please read the information correctly before posting.
That's exactly what i'm saying.. read my post before posting.
Of all the Z and T players at MLG, T will win ~43% of the time against Z. That doesn't tell you about the balance of the game nearly as much as it tells you about the selection of players that represented Z and T at MLG.
Think of it this way: if Idra played 100 games against Sjow and won 70 of them, would you say that Z is OP? No, you would say that Idra is better than than Sjow in ZvT.
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lol@terran some of highest AND lowest APM (MMA vs. Sjow: 360 vs. 140). Axslav wins the slow and steady race -.- too bad the hare didn't attend MLG.
Typhon peaks? imba imba imba. 100% TvP rate 
-Bleh, I don't like these statistics --> they are nice but misleading. They don't give enough background: are these from championship bracket, or overall? How do the numbers break down (like instead of %, non-simplified fractions).
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On June 22 2011 07:11 SuperStyle wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 07:02 windsupernova wrote:
Well, since the OP got it wrong here are the Win percentages
PvZ:46.51 %
TvZ: 43.21%
TvP:46%
I wonder how many people will claim T are broken before they read the thread LOL
IMO things seem quite balanced, its a shame that the QQing never seems to stop. So thats how balance looks like, zergs having winning percentage against every other race by a high margin, good to know. However looking at every tournament around things do look balanced, but i dont see how you can say that things look balanced looking just at MLG.
Its around 5% so statistically its an acceptable outlier. I play random so I don´t even have anything invested in Zerg being OP lol. I have an extreme disgust with any kinda of QQ though
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Could we get only from the pool play and beyond win rates? I just have a feeling a lot of silver leaguers or similar joined in the open bracket
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On June 22 2011 07:34 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 07:30 LagT_T wrote:On June 22 2011 07:20 worldsnap wrote:On June 22 2011 07:11 SuperStyle wrote:On June 22 2011 07:02 windsupernova wrote:
Well, since the OP got it wrong here are the Win percentages
PvZ:46.51 %
TvZ: 43.21%
TvP:46%
I wonder how many people will claim T are broken before they read the thread LOL
IMO things seem quite balanced, its a shame that the QQing never seems to stop. So thats how balance looks like, zergs having winning percentage against every other race by a high margin, good to know. However looking at every tournament around things do look balanced, but i dont see how you can say that things look balanced looking just at MLG. The only thing you can conclude from this is that given the pool of Terran and Zerg players that played at MLG, the zerg players will win more often than the terran players on average. That's the only thing you can say. The disparity in quality of players between races, especially given that there are many more terran players playing than any other race, allows you to draw no conclusion on "balance" The stats show the matchups win percentages, not individual races win percentages. Please read the information correctly before posting. That's exactly what i'm saying.. read my post before posting. Of all the Z and T players at MLG, T will win ~43% of the time against Z. That doesn't tell you about the balance of the game nearly as much as it tells you about the selection of players that represented Z and T at MLG. Think of it this way: if Idra played 100 games against Sjow and won 70 of them, would you say that Z is OP? No, you would say that Idra is better than than Sjow in ZvT.
Exactly , this kind of statistics are nice but don´t really say much. They are still nice and the less ammo people have to QQ about the better IMHO
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On June 22 2011 07:30 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 07:20 worldsnap wrote:On June 22 2011 07:11 SuperStyle wrote:On June 22 2011 07:02 windsupernova wrote:
Well, since the OP got it wrong here are the Win percentages
PvZ:46.51 %
TvZ: 43.21%
TvP:46%
I wonder how many people will claim T are broken before they read the thread LOL
IMO things seem quite balanced, its a shame that the QQing never seems to stop. So thats how balance looks like, zergs having winning percentage against every other race by a high margin, good to know. However looking at every tournament around things do look balanced, but i dont see how you can say that things look balanced looking just at MLG. The only thing you can conclude from this is that given the pool of Terran and Zerg players that played at MLG, the zerg players will win more often than the terran players on average. That's the only thing you can say. The disparity in quality of players between races, especially given that there are many more terran players playing than any other race, allows you to draw no conclusion on "balance" The stats show the matchups win percentages, not individual races win percentages. Please read the information correctly before posting.
He is correct actually, its easy to calculate individual race win percentage if u have all of the match up percentages, so his conclusion that zerg players won more than terran players on average is correct.
As for the guy that wanted only top 20 stats u can find that in TLPD but u have to check manually and individually each one.
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Pretty sure that APM is adjusted APM.
I recall watching games of Losira/MC/MMA and their APM was around 270~ish from what I remember.
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I think the really interesting thing is the match ratio per map.
It seems maps are really, really influencing the win ratio for each match ups, but we cannot say for sure since we do not have the sheer number of game played on every maps (for exemple, I'm sure Testbug, Shakuras and Tal'Darim were played quite a bit, but I don't think many played Typhon peaks for exemple).
Just giving an exemple for PvZ
Testbug : PvZ 20%
Xel Naga Cavern : PvZ: 33,30%
Those two maps seems to favor of Zergs a lot.
Then Metalopolis with a 40% PvZ, seems to favor zergs a bit.
Then, in the middle you have Shattered Temple and Shakuras Plateau both at 50% win ratio, perfect balance.
Then, at the other side of the spectrum, Tal'Darim Altar with a 70% win ratio in PvZ.
Seems, like a lot of guys said, that the solution to everything is in the map making.
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yea losira had around 250apm from the replays i saw so tht must be real apm not in-game.
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On June 22 2011 07:34 worldsnap wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 07:30 LagT_T wrote:On June 22 2011 07:20 worldsnap wrote:On June 22 2011 07:11 SuperStyle wrote:On June 22 2011 07:02 windsupernova wrote:
Well, since the OP got it wrong here are the Win percentages
PvZ:46.51 %
TvZ: 43.21%
TvP:46%
I wonder how many people will claim T are broken before they read the thread LOL
IMO things seem quite balanced, its a shame that the QQing never seems to stop. So thats how balance looks like, zergs having winning percentage against every other race by a high margin, good to know. However looking at every tournament around things do look balanced, but i dont see how you can say that things look balanced looking just at MLG. The only thing you can conclude from this is that given the pool of Terran and Zerg players that played at MLG, the zerg players will win more often than the terran players on average. That's the only thing you can say. The disparity in quality of players between races, especially given that there are many more terran players playing than any other race, allows you to draw no conclusion on "balance" The stats show the matchups win percentages, not individual races win percentages. Please read the information correctly before posting. That's exactly what i'm saying.. read my post before posting. Of all the Z and T players at MLG, T will win ~43% of the time against Z. That doesn't tell you about the balance of the game nearly as much as it tells you about the selection of players that represented Z and T at MLG. Think of it this way: if Idra played 100 games against Sjow and won 70 of them, would you say that Z is OP? No, you would say that Idra is better than than Sjow in ZvT.
I'm sorry, how do YOU calculate balance from statistics?
Try using a big enough top level player pool with a big enough sample of games. If MLG was big enough or not is another debate.
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The APM is "real" APM.
The matchup stats are for the Championship Bracket only.
Here are the stats for entire tournament (Open + Championship):
Percentage of Players of Each Race:
Zerg: 33.45%
Protoss: 37.72%
Terran: 28.83%
Matchups:
PvZ:
Zerg: 45.51%
Protoss: 54.49%
PvT:
Terran: 54.97%
Protoss: 45.03%
TvZ:
Zerg: 41.94%
Terran: 58.06%
Matchups by Map:
MLG Metalopolis:
PvZ:
Zerg: 53.57%
Protoss: 46.43%
PvT:
Protoss: 50%
Terran: 50%
TvZ:
Zerg: 42.11%
Terran: 57.89%
MLG Shakuras Plateau:
PvT:
Terran: 62.5%
Protoss: 37.5%
TvZ:
Zerg: 46.67%
Terran: 53.33%
PvZ:
Protoss: 52.17%
Zerg: 47.83%
MLG Xel'Naga Caverns:
PvZ:
Zerg: 46.88%
Protoss: 53.13%
PvT:
Terran: 57.41%
Protoss: 42.59%
TvZ:
Zerg: 38.1%
Terran: 61.9%
MLG Testbug:
PvT:
Terran: 61.11%
Protoss: 38.89%
PvZ:
Zerg: 54.84%
Protoss: 45.16%
TvZ:
Zerg: 57.89%
Terran: 42.11%
MLG Shattered Temple:
PvT:
Protoss: 55.56%
Terran: 44.44%
PvZ:
Zerg: 44.12%
Protoss: 55.88%
TvZ:
Zerg: 43.9%
Terran: 56.1%
MLG Typhon Peaks:
TvZ:
Zerg: 33.33%
Terran: 66.67%
PvZ:
Zerg: 44.12%
Protoss: 55.88%
PvT:
Terran: 65.52%
Protoss: 34.48%
MLG Tal'darim Altar:
PvZ:
Protoss: 71.74%
Zerg: 28.26%
TvZ:
Zerg: 37.84%
Terran: 62.16%
PvT:
Protoss: 47.83%
Terran: 52.17%
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The APM stats are pretty interesting. Especially "If one player's APM was at least 50 greater than the other's, that player won 65.7% of the time."
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On June 22 2011 08:26 Draconicfire wrote:
The APM stats are pretty interesting. Especially "If one player's APM was at least 50 greater than the other's, that player won 65.7% of the time."
But this statistic is greatly skewed by the Koreans, unless we assume Korean apm is what is causing them to win and dominate (which may be true).
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On June 22 2011 08:33 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 08:26 Draconicfire wrote:
The APM stats are pretty interesting. Especially "If one player's APM was at least 50 greater than the other's, that player won 65.7% of the time." But this statistic is greatly skewed by the Koreans, unless we assume Korean apm is what is causing them to win and dominate (which may be true).
The APM/Win % stat included all games in both Open in Championship brackets, so the Koreans didn't skew it *too* much.
FYI: Thats approximately 1300 games.
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Testbug is going to be very problematic. 80% Zerg overall winrate against P/T.
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EPT
