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On June 22 2011 08:09 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 07:34 worldsnap wrote:On June 22 2011 07:30 LagT_T wrote:On June 22 2011 07:20 worldsnap wrote:On June 22 2011 07:11 SuperStyle wrote:On June 22 2011 07:02 windsupernova wrote:
Well, since the OP got it wrong here are the Win percentages
PvZ:46.51 %
TvZ: 43.21%
TvP:46%
I wonder how many people will claim T are broken before they read the thread LOL
IMO things seem quite balanced, its a shame that the QQing never seems to stop. So thats how balance looks like, zergs having winning percentage against every other race by a high margin, good to know. However looking at every tournament around things do look balanced, but i dont see how you can say that things look balanced looking just at MLG. The only thing you can conclude from this is that given the pool of Terran and Zerg players that played at MLG, the zerg players will win more often than the terran players on average. That's the only thing you can say. The disparity in quality of players between races, especially given that there are many more terran players playing than any other race, allows you to draw no conclusion on "balance" The stats show the matchups win percentages, not individual races win percentages. Please read the information correctly before posting. That's exactly what i'm saying.. read my post before posting. Of all the Z and T players at MLG, T will win ~43% of the time against Z. That doesn't tell you about the balance of the game nearly as much as it tells you about the selection of players that represented Z and T at MLG. Think of it this way: if Idra played 100 games against Sjow and won 70 of them, would you say that Z is OP? No, you would say that Idra is better than than Sjow in ZvT. I'm sorry, how do YOU calculate balance from statistics? Try using a big enough top level player pool with a big enough sample of games. If MLG was big enough or not is another debate.
Well, tbh something as ambiguous as balance is extremely difficult to determine by any means. Its a good sample this is a case that can´t really be measured and adjusted numerically(nor by gut reaction). I am not saying this data is 100% useless and its nice data to have but at one moment we will have to accept that no matter how hard we try some people will always consider something Imbalanced while some people won´t.
We just need to discourage all forms off QQing and try to make the game better instead of crying OP at everything
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LOL Typhon peaks TvP 100%
are you sure about the 1300 games sample size?
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APM is so useless, for example you can see select at 373 APM and MMA at 359 APM, but from watching both players in FPVODs and replays I can tell you that MMA is __much__ faster than select, select just spams 123123123123123123 all game long and people give him credit playing fast, whereas the true magicians are almost all of the time the Koreans and a few select Europeans (e.g. Strelok) who have impressed me the most with their hand speed.
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Every Korean has higher APM than every foreigner except for Select. I think that proves that APM is important.
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Testbug is the only map that Zerg has a good win rate all other maps besides metalopolis PvZ favor terran and protoss vs zerg just from those stats
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On June 22 2011 07:31 ZAiNs wrote:In-game APM.
I'm not sure about that. Unless sjow and axslav suddenly have lan jitters, they definitely dont have 140 apm. Also, i think select averages around 250-300 from the replays ive seen of him. 250*1.4 = 350 so that would be close enough.
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Testbug is the only map that Zerg has a good win rate all other maps besides metalopolis PvZ favor terran and protoss vs zerg just from those stats
Xel'Naga?
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On June 22 2011 08:39 ChickenLips wrote:
APM is so useless, for example you can see select at 373 APM and MMA at 359 APM, but from watching both players in FPVODs and replays I can tell you that MMA is __much__ faster than select, select just spams 123123123123123123 all game long and people give him credit playing fast, whereas the true magicians are almost all of the time the Koreans and a few select Europeans (e.g. Strelok) who have impressed me the most with their hand speed.
There are FPVODS from MMA? Link please? I want them @_@
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On June 22 2011 08:41 EnWara wrote:
Every Korean has higher APM than every foreigner except for Select. I think that proves that APM is important.
That proves that being mechanically proficient is important. You can have a trillion APM by spamming yet never build a unit. See the difference?
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On June 22 2011 08:39 ChickenLips wrote:
APM is so useless, for example you can see select at 373 APM and MMA at 359 APM, but from watching both players in FPVODs and replays I can tell you that MMA is __much__ faster than select, select just spams 123123123123123123 all game long and people give him credit playing fast, whereas the true magicians are almost all of the time the Koreans and a few select Europeans (e.g. Strelok) who have impressed me the most with their hand speed.
I 100% agree
watching MMA and Select play in FPVODs is like night and day
This is why I argue that APM DOES matter because the really high level players actually make use of it and they go up that high when they macro/multitask
A lot of people seem to think that if anyone has over 150 apm they're "spamming" but it's obviously not true. Players like MMA are doing important things with it
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On June 22 2011 08:37 wxwx wrote:
Testbug is going to be very problematic. 80% Zerg overall winrate against P/T.
How many games were played on Testbug? Because its such an nice number, its either like 4 out of 5 games or 8 out of 10- neither of which are large enough for a ample sample size
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so tl;dr, zerg > protoss and zerg > terran
i wonder how much worse the PvZ stats would be if you disregarded MC's games...
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On June 22 2011 08:09 LagT_T wrote:
I'm sorry, how do YOU calculate balance from statistics?
Try using a big enough top level player pool with a big enough sample of games. If MLG was big enough or not is another debate.
It's worth noting that, in a tournament situation, a few players who place highly with a given race can completely skew the numbers. The reason is that winners keep playing while losers stop.
The ultimate winner of a single-elimination tournament with 16 entrants is going to win four times, while the median player is going to win once (since half the players get eliminated in the first round.)
Edit: If you really wanted statistics that showed race balances clearly, you'd have to have much more random matchups between players, and all players playing the same number of games. The ladder would be a good place for that, while a single or double-elimination tournament would not be.
Edit 2: I'll bet if you looked at the stats from the GSL Super Tournament,
+ Show Spoiler +
the numbers would heavily favor Terran, because the most number of rounds won by any non-Terran player was three, while the winner won 7.
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On June 22 2011 08:59 lilky wrote:so tl;dr, zerg > protoss and zerg > terran i wonder how much worse the PvZ stats would be if you disregarded MC's games...
This is what should happen when 4 of the 6 best players in the tournament are zerg.
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On June 22 2011 09:00 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 08:09 LagT_T wrote:
I'm sorry, how do YOU calculate balance from statistics?
Try using a big enough top level player pool with a big enough sample of games. If MLG was big enough or not is another debate. It's worth noting that, in a tournament situation, a few players who place highly with a given race can completely skew the numbers. The reason is that winners keep playing while losers stop. The ultimate winner of a single-elimination tournament with 16 entrants is going to win four times, while the median player is going to win once (since half the players get eliminated in the first round.) Edit: If you really wanted statistics that showed race balances clearly, you'd have to have much more random matchups between players, and all players playing the same number of games. The ladder would be a good place for that, while a single or double-elimination tournament would not be. Edit 2: I'll bet if you looked at the stats from the GSL Super Tournament, + Show Spoiler +
the numbers would heavily favor Terran, because the most number of rounds won by any non-Terran player was three, while the winner won 7.
That's applicable when you are looking at a race overall win percentage, but this is matchup win percentage, which is independent of any individual result. You use the total amount of games of that matchup played, regardless of the tournament round, etc, they all weight the same.
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On June 22 2011 08:41 EnWara wrote:
Every Korean has higher APM than every foreigner except for Select. I think that proves that APM is important.
A lot of the top 16 GSL koreans average 170-220
Idra and Naniwa, as another example, average 160-220~
The ones averaging 300+ don't necessarily play better, yet.
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On June 22 2011 08:50 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 08:39 ChickenLips wrote:
APM is so useless, for example you can see select at 373 APM and MMA at 359 APM, but from watching both players in FPVODs and replays I can tell you that MMA is __much__ faster than select, select just spams 123123123123123123 all game long and people give him credit playing fast, whereas the true magicians are almost all of the time the Koreans and a few select Europeans (e.g. Strelok) who have impressed me the most with their hand speed. I 100% agree watching MMA and Select play in FPVODs is like night and day This is why I argue that APM DOES matter because the really high level players actually make use of it and they go up that high when they macro/multitask A lot of people seem to think that if anyone has over 150 apm they're "spamming" but it's obviously not true. Players like MMA are doing important things with it
Where did you find MMA's FPVODs? I've never seen one before.
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wow at select and vibe's apm
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Yeah, I didn't expect select and vibe's apm to be above/around the Koreans. I guess it's possible they like to spam click more than the normal person, however.
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the MLG Stats are real APM, i watched the MMA replays versus losira and they all say like 220 APM but then you multiply it by i think somewhere around 1.3 and then you get real apm
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EPT
