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On June 22 2011 12:56 two.watup wrote:
I think the most impressive statistic is this:
Gret0rp: Loses every single match. 0-6 (2-12).
27th place.
Qxc: Loses to ThorZain and SeleCT. 8-2
26th place.
Moonan: Loses every single match. 0-6 (3-12).
25th place.
Ya this is why I'm not a fan of the structure. It is too forgiving. Oh well.
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On June 22 2011 13:13 dartoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 08:44 windsupernova wrote:On June 22 2011 08:39 ChickenLips wrote:
APM is so useless, for example you can see select at 373 APM and MMA at 359 APM, but from watching both players in FPVODs and replays I can tell you that MMA is __much__ faster than select, select just spams 123123123123123123 all game long and people give him credit playing fast, whereas the true magicians are almost all of the time the Koreans and a few select Europeans (e.g. Strelok) who have impressed me the most with their hand speed. There are FPVODS from MMA? Link please? I want them @_@ You could download the replays and watch them from MMA's view point right (clicking on the camera icon)? Thats the same as fpv I think. And check out sjows apm,you dont need to spam to be a top player! 
That´s not the same and you know it >_<
I need to see the mouse cursor. Anyways thanks for the answer `
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On June 22 2011 13:02 two.watup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 13:01 Suc wrote:On June 22 2011 12:56 two.watup wrote:
I think the most impressive statistic is this:
Gret0rp: Loses every single match. 0-6 (2-12).
27th place.
Moonan: Loses every single match. 0-6 (3-12).
25th place. Because Moonan took 1 more game off someone in a bo3. The point is players losing every single match and placing higher than Anyone else in the tournament. You cannot be top 32 and not win a single bo3. That's just pathetic tournament structure. I can lose 6 bo3s too. I'm plat league.
It is called a circuit. Each stop is one event in the season, as you play in more events you will see the weaker players fall lower. Don't think of MLG events as one tournament where the past results did not matter. Give it a year or two and you will see a insane pool in the top 32.
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I don't think we should look too much into balance with these win ratios. The Koreans basically dominated this tournament so any stats without Koreans is basically meaningless in my opinion.
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[QUOTE]On June 22 2011 07:34 worldsnap wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 22 2011 07:30 LagT_T wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 22 2011 07:20 worldsnap wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 22 2011 07:11 SuperStyle wrote:
[QUOTE]On June 22 2011 07:02 windsupernova wrote:
Well, since the OP got it wrong here are the Win percentages
PvZ:46.51 %
TvZ: 43.21%
TvP:46%
I wonder how many people will claim T are broken before they read the thread LOL
IMO things seem quite balanced, its a shame that the QQing never seems to stop.[/QUOTE]
So thats how balance looks like, zergs having winning percentage against every other race by a high margin, good to know.
However looking at every tournament around things do look balanced, but i dont see how you can say that things look balanced looking just at MLG.[/QUOTE]
The only thing you can conclude from this is that given the pool of Terran and Zerg players that played at MLG, the zerg players will win more often than the terran players on average.
That's the only thing you can say. The disparity in quality of players between races, especially given that there are many more terran players playing than any other race, allows you to draw no conclusion on "balance"[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
QFT
The problem with stats such as these for open tournaments such as MLG is that since anyone could sign up, there could theoretically be a tournament with 1 zerg, 254 terrans, 1 protoss. Zerg now represents less than 1% of the playing population, however say its idra in the open bracket and he makes it to the quarter finals (in a single elim bracket) without losing a game and playing only terrans, then goes 0-2 he would finish with a record of 12-2 which would make that matchup read ZvT is 85% win rate for zerg.
The issue is that the general population (in my experience) doesn't understand statistics well enough to differentiate between correlation and causation. Assuming all races were perfectly balanced and had the exact same skill level at spots 1-100 of their race with the other races, in a tournament with 40% terrans, the average skill of a terran will be lower, thus pulling down their average win rate.
Now I'm not arguing that the game is balanced or these stats mean nothing, but i think outside of the oooo factor, they are mostly useless unless you cut to like top 64/32 of the tournament where the nobodies/for funsies people have all been knocked out
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vibe has shockingly high apm and i kind of want to watch the avilo game with 52 nooks
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I can't believe so many people are talking about apm.
Now, you made me mention it
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On June 22 2011 14:57 windsupernova wrote:That´s not the same and you know it >_< I need to see the mouse cursor. Anyways thanks for the answer `
Dig through the history of Cella's stream and you will find one. Complete with webcam if you go back far enough.
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On June 22 2011 07:30 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 07:20 worldsnap wrote:On June 22 2011 07:11 SuperStyle wrote:On June 22 2011 07:02 windsupernova wrote:
Well, since the OP got it wrong here are the Win percentages
PvZ:46.51 %
TvZ: 43.21%
TvP:46%
I wonder how many people will claim T are broken before they read the thread LOL
IMO things seem quite balanced, its a shame that the QQing never seems to stop. So thats how balance looks like, zergs having winning percentage against every other race by a high margin, good to know. However looking at every tournament around things do look balanced, but i dont see how you can say that things look balanced looking just at MLG. The only thing you can conclude from this is that given the pool of Terran and Zerg players that played at MLG, the zerg players will win more often than the terran players on average. That's the only thing you can say. The disparity in quality of players between races, especially given that there are many more terran players playing than any other race, allows you to draw no conclusion on "balance" QFT The problem with stats such as these for open tournaments such as MLG is that since anyone could sign up, there could theoretically be a tournament with 1 zerg, 254 terrans, 1 protoss. Zerg now represents less than 1% of the playing population, however say its idra in the open bracket and he makes it to the quarter finals (in a single elim bracket) without losing a game and playing only terrans, then goes 0-2 he would finish with a record of 12-2 which would make that matchup read ZvT is 85% win rate for zerg. The issue is that the general population (in my experience) doesn't understand statistics well enough to differentiate between correlation and causation. Assuming all races were perfectly balanced and had the exact same skill level at spots 1-100 of their race with the other races, in a tournament with 40% terrans, the average skill of a terran will be lower, thus pulling down their average win rate. Now I'm not arguing that the game is balanced or these stats mean nothing, but i think outside of the oooo factor, they are mostly useless unless you cut to like top 64/32 of the tournament where the nobodies/for funsies people have all been knocked out
The only thing you can conclude concerning balance is the impact of maps on every match ups, and that's the main thing interesting here in my opinion, if you consider the difference in win ratio in each match ups per maps.
At such a high level of play (let's say MLG is high master / grand master ? or just GM ?) the win loss ratio are very, very different from one map to another. Testbug being a zerg favored map (80% win ratio) for exemple.
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On June 22 2011 15:00 Kralic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 13:02 two.watup wrote:On June 22 2011 13:01 Suc wrote:On June 22 2011 12:56 two.watup wrote:
I think the most impressive statistic is this:
Gret0rp: Loses every single match. 0-6 (2-12).
27th place.
Moonan: Loses every single match. 0-6 (3-12).
25th place. Because Moonan took 1 more game off someone in a bo3. The point is players losing every single match and placing higher than Anyone else in the tournament. You cannot be top 32 and not win a single bo3. That's just pathetic tournament structure. I can lose 6 bo3s too. I'm plat league. It is called a circuit. Each stop is one event in the season, as you play in more events you will see the weaker players fall lower. Don't think of MLG events as one tournament where the past results did not matter. Give it a year or two and you will see a insane pool in the top 32.
So players constantly getting top 32 placement despite losing everything and playing much worse than a lot of the people placing significantly lower for a "year or two" sounds fine to you?
Saying that it's called <insert bad format name here> as an excuse for it being a bad format is not really an excuse. It's the same as saying "it's called having a bad format", except this one has a clear meaning, while yours tries to make it seem like something else.
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On June 22 2011 07:16 BRJ wrote:
I like it. Machine actually is a machine with exactly 200 APM
Ahaha that's a hilarious coincidence.
or is it...
Well, with Terran so dominant in Korea, maybe it shows that Terran rewards skill more than any other race (which makes sense considering the highest amount of multitasking with drops and whatnot). At the lower levels Terran is clearly not as dominant, perhaps perhaps.
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On June 22 2011 17:47 Ruscour wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 07:16 BRJ wrote:
I like it. Machine actually is a machine with exactly 200 APM Ahaha that's a hilarious coincidence. or is it... Well, with Terran so dominant in Korea, maybe it shows that Terran rewards skill more than any other race (which makes sense considering the highest amount of multitasking with drops and whatnot). At the lower levels Terran is clearly not as dominant, perhaps perhaps.
Terran is not that dominant in Korea, GSL ST is just a frame of a period, just a tournament.
Yes, in GSL ST, Terran is dominant, but if you look at the LG Cinema 3D special league ro16 which ran the same time with GSL, all the Terran (MMA, Ryung, MarineKing, Teaja, SuperNova) got knocked out (mostly in 2:0), and the only non-Terran got knocked out is Genius (defeated by Rain), and sC got in by TvT.
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On June 22 2011 15:12 K3Nyy wrote:
I don't think we should look too much into balance with these win ratios. The Koreans basically dominated this tournament so any stats without Koreans is basically meaningless in my opinion.
Good point.
Throw in only race X players from Korea and you'll see how imba that race is.
So pretty much GSL is the best source for statistics.
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On June 22 2011 15:44 thebig1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 14:57 windsupernova wrote:That´s not the same and you know it >_< I need to see the mouse cursor. Anyways thanks for the answer ` Dig through the history of Cella's stream and you will find one. Complete with webcam if you go back far enough.
I'm interested in this, how far back do you believe it was?
Edit: nvm, found one: http://www.justin.tv/slayerscella/b/283474828 Starts around 27min in, only one game of MMA in this one though, sadly. 
Edit 2: Found another better one: http://www.justin.tv/slayerscella/b/285427634 Multiple games from Ryung and MMA in this one. (first 2 parts only)
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On June 22 2011 15:20 dennistoo wrote:
i lol-ed at PvZ.
Now while it does appear you've made a TL account just to whine about the UPness of/cheer for Protoss, one really can't help but think what an idiot you are for thinking the PvZ stats are totally unacceptable while Z's advantage in that matchup is identical to Protoss' advantage in PvT.
Furthermore these stats don't show shit, and it's worthless to engage in balance discussions - especially on TL where half the playerbase happens to be zerg.
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On June 22 2011 12:52 darklordjac wrote:
Selects average apm 373 holy shit, I didn't even think people hit that in sc2
That isn't APM in SC2 time, it has been converted into real apm. Whether that number is actually EAPM is something I don't know.
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On June 22 2011 12:56 two.watup wrote:
I think the most impressive statistic is this:
Gret0rp: Loses every single match. 0-6 (2-12).
27th place.
Qxc: Loses to ThorZain and SeleCT. 8-2
26th place.
Moonan: Loses every single match. 0-6 (3-12).
25th place.
Funny thing is, this shows nothings. Shows that Qxc met a bunch of lower level players and won against them. Would be funny for Anaheim if gretorp does the same.
Remember how it went for qxc MLG Dallas? He won 1 more game than Gretorp in the group stages, but Gretorp was in the group of death.. They both lost in their first losers round. Moonan actually got the same round as idra at MLG Dallas.
There will allways be people that get these statistics because there's a large player base, who are good enough to get into group plays, but not good enough to really do anything there, unless they have a really good weekend.
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On June 22 2011 07:30 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 07:20 worldsnap wrote:On June 22 2011 07:11 SuperStyle wrote:On June 22 2011 07:02 windsupernova wrote:
Well, since the OP got it wrong here are the Win percentages
PvZ:46.51 %
TvZ: 43.21%
TvP:46%
I wonder how many people will claim T are broken before they read the thread LOL
IMO things seem quite balanced, its a shame that the QQing never seems to stop. So thats how balance looks like, zergs having winning percentage against every other race by a high margin, good to know. However looking at every tournament around things do look balanced, but i dont see how you can say that things look balanced looking just at MLG. The only thing you can conclude from this is that given the pool of Terran and Zerg players that played at MLG, the zerg players will win more often than the terran players on average. That's the only thing you can say. The disparity in quality of players between races, especially given that there are many more terran players playing than any other race, allows you to draw no conclusion on "balance" QFT The problem with stats such as these for open tournaments such as MLG is that since anyone could sign up, there could theoretically be a tournament with 1 zerg, 254 terrans, 1 protoss. Zerg now represents less than 1% of the playing population, however say its idra in the open bracket and he makes it to the quarter finals (in a single elim bracket) without losing a game and playing only terrans, then goes 0-2 he would finish with a record of 12-2 which would make that matchup read ZvT is 85% win rate for zerg. The issue is that the general population (in my experience) doesn't understand statistics well enough to differentiate between correlation and causation. Assuming all races were perfectly balanced and had the exact same skill level at spots 1-100 of their race with the other races, in a tournament with 40% terrans, the average skill of a terran will be lower, thus pulling down their average win rate. Now I'm not arguing that the game is balanced or these stats mean nothing, but i think outside of the oooo factor, they are mostly useless unless you cut to like top 64/32 of the tournament where the nobodies/for funsies people have all been knocked out
Well, the stats for the championship bracket matches point in the same directionthe NASL racial stats.
NASL:
PvZ: 44 %
TvZ: 44%
TvP:42%
MLG (Championship bracket only)
PvZ:46.51 %
TvZ: 43.21%
TvP:46%
While you get skewed numbers in a KO system, because the better players play more games (and that way favoring the race with the most exceptionally good players), a round robin system ensures numbers that actually hint at balance, given the assumption that the skill level of the 3 races is very similar (a reasonable assumption, despite what Zergs try to tell us  ).
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EPT
