EPTGomTV caster: "Growth of e-sports" - Page 25
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TehRaZer
36 Posts
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iMAniaC
Norway703 Posts
Now, for my thoughts on the culture barriers: It has been mentioned a few times that there needs to be more integration of foreigners and I agree whole heartedly. If I've understood correctly, Korean society is very focused on social networks, and that's why most North Korean refugees to South Korea very quickly join a church and also why non-religious Koreans ouside of Korea attend church. It's more about social networking than religion. Perhaps you, as a Korean, even have a hard time believing that there should be so much difference between Korean society and European/American societies. It feels really weird telling a Korean what kind of society Korea has, and I don't mean any disresepect by it (after all, you know it much better than I do), but this is how it is perceived by many in the West and, for the purpose of understanding why foreigners leave Korea, it's obviously important to understand how they perceive the difference between the cultures. As for Western cultures, they are very much based on individuality, which means that social networks don't play such a huge role and the really close personal networks, like friends and family, feel more important. Which again means, that if you're without your friends and family, you feel quite alone. A Westerner can't just easily search out a church or whatever for a social network of acquiaintances, because what he needs is not acquaintances, but friends. So my proposal is to try to make him some friends, and not only practice partners. What about trying to organize a kind of "friendship club" or something? The goal would be that a bunch of Koreans would hang out with the foreigners, taking them out to do stuff, translating menus and whatnot and basically show them a good time and be their friends. In return, the Koreans would get valuable English practice, since the foreigners, naturally, would only know English (or Swedish or something, but I guess English would be the really valuable language here). These friends don't have to be the practice partners from their practice house, but could just as well be students who wish to improve their English or employees who wish to brush up on their English skills, or even cultural skills. Best of all, it would be practically free, only requiring an initial effort to organize it, so that things can get going. Finding friends can sometimes be difficult, especially if one doesn't know the language and culture. Being able to go somewhere and say "Hey, I need some friends" and being pointed at some people and being told "Okay, befriend those guys" can sometimes be much easier - and surprisingly succesful. In short, I think what GOM is doing is awesome and that being invited should be viewed as a great opportunity to get to know a new culture while doing what one is passionate about. But GOM should appreciate how lonely foreigners feel when they don't have friends to hang out with and do something to help the foreigners get into a social life in Korea. Moreover, thinking outside of GOM's structure, like looking for university students or employees of a partner company in order to find those friends, might ultimately prove more succesful in keeping foreigners in Korea than any realistic amount of monetary incentives. That's my 2 cent. Keep up the awesome work! | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On May 28 2011 09:55 iMAniaC wrote: As for Western cultures, they are very much based on individuality, which means that social networks don't play such a huge role and the really close personal networks, like friends and family, feel more important. Which again means, that if you're without your friends and family, you feel quite alone. A Westerner can't just easily search out a church or whatever for a social network of acquiaintances, because what he needs is not acquaintances, but friends. Huh? American culture is ALL about networking. Networking >>> education in terms of getting a job. If anything, the focus on individualism causes people to ALIENATE their family and focus more on career building. Family is far more important in Asia (as someone who is closely familiar with both cultures.) Western society focuses on the nuclear family unit, whereas Asia/South America tends to have your extended family living together. My dad and uncles all take turns having my grandmother living with them, whichever is most convenient for her (they move between China and Taiwan a lot, where-ever business takes them.) If they were in the West, they'd dump her in an old folk's home. This is not implying Westerners do not love their family or any of that non-sense, but your theory is simply not true, especially in the US (don't know much about European culture so can't comment on that.) | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On May 28 2011 09:57 Ocedic wrote: Huh? American culture is ALL about networking. Networking >>> education in terms of getting a job. If anything, the focus on individualism causes people to ALIENATE their family and focus more on career building. Family is far more important in Asia (as someone who is closely familiar with both cultures.) Western society focuses on the nuclear family unit, whereas Asia/South America tends to have your extended family living together. My dad and uncles all take turns having my grandmother living with them, whichever is most convenient for her (they move between China and Taiwan a lot, where-ever business takes them.) If they were in the West, they'd dump her in an old folk's home. This is not implying Westerners do not love their family or any of that non-sense, but your theory is simply not true, especially in the US (don't know much about European culture so can't comment on that.) Not to stray too much off the original topic, as a european with asian origin and relatives living in the US, pretty much everything you have said was correct. As for europe, the status quo too consists of 2 parents 1-2 children, with a tendency of not having children at all. | ||
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Frostler
United States41 Posts
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Kentakky
Sweden1272 Posts
On May 28 2011 07:47 Golgotha wrote: lol that hurts. But I have to agree. Incontrol would have a very slim chance even qualifying into Code A, much less playing in Code A. However, not all those that were against going are in the same boat as the likes of Incontrol. Take for example Idra, he has the skill (unless he has grown soft on US server) to compete and he did not wish to go back. I hope he can change his mind one day and compete long term in the GSL. But Nani and T-Zain NEED to get to Korea and make some $$$ and gain lots of fame. Frankly, the fame you get in competing the GSL is also HIGHLY lucrative and beneficial to one's career. Select, Kiwi, Sheth, Sen, Dimaga, White-Ra, Kas, and TLO should also think about GSL. Heck, TeamLiquid would gain so much from fielding a GSTL team...think about the exposure and crazed foreign fans that will root for TL! I can't wait until they announce the F-team that will go into the GSTL (that would allow IM to play!); I hope it is TeamLiquid or the lethal DIGNITAS TEAM!! Whichever foreign team that gets that GSTL spot...mark my words...they will see great things in the future and many opportunities will arise for them. In other words they will become BIG just because they entered and competed in the GSTL. I think you're my favourite poster =) I think it's fairly simple, IF you want to be the best damn player accept EVERY big tournament invite, it's good for you, it's good for your team. Tournaments don't clash very often from what I've seen and now GSL is even so kind to put in a weekend off for MLG, it happened once where IdrA couldn't make it to Dreamhack as far as I know, but now that many Koreans are going there as well they'll take a weekend off for that as well I'm guessing or just move some matches around. Koreans perform very well in the NASL from cross server, don't think you can't compete in tournaments like this if you live in Korea. If you have EU account if I'm not totally wrong you can still play in the weekly cups and earn a buck. I don't know why Jinro and HuK ignored NASL that's their problem if they can't change their sleep schedule or whatever to play A game per week on another server. Pros of going to Korea +You'll get better +You'll get more exposure +Your team will get more exposure +You have the chance of the most prizemoney +You can basically still play in all of the big lans +You can still play in online leagues/qualifiers +Oppurtunity of a lifetime Cons If you truly are a "pro" player there shouldn't be any cons. The only con I had was before reading DoAs post was about practice partners but that didn't seem like a stretch at all just talk to people and have something set up. I also feel that foreign teams should give their players out in Korea a better salary as their exposure is far greater for them than what players only in EU/NA get. imo give all Korean players EU/NA accounts and have them join ALL the regular cups, hopefully they'll demolish and foreigner finally can start getting off their arses and actually strive to be the best damn player. Koreans have had the same time with Sc2 as the foreigners, their time has been spent better because they actually want to be the best and probably have the most effective setup. China also doing the same cause they know what it takes to become the best at something. I thought USA would have that winner mentality since they have that in regular sports but in eSports they seem to have the worst attitude (not saying all of em) but those who I've seen express their opinion on the matter. Where is that winner mentality foreigner guys? Being satisfied with top 8 or whatever at MLGs and stuff like that is okay if you're playing the game just for fun. If you're a pro you should always aim for gold. I'd hate to see anyone placing 1-4 in MLG turning down their invites to the GSL Code S and Code A. And that is why I'll cheer for Dignitas.Naniwa, the Koreans and anyone else not being ludacris about a month hopefully longer in a foreign country all expenses (except food) paid this upcoming event. Peace | ||
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Champi
1422 Posts
imagine oGs-Liquid vs EG-SlayerS or IM-Dignitas for examples how amazing it would be to watch that!!! :D i think this decision is a step in the right direction for GSL | ||
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TheFrankOne
United States667 Posts
I wondered if anyone over at GOM read the threads that had been posted, I'm glad there is such openness coming from so many companies involved in SC2, (mostly GOM and MLG) addressing issues up front and with more candor than I would expect. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
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Kentakky
Sweden1272 Posts
On May 28 2011 10:40 Champi wrote: i think that the decision to let foreigners play as a mercenary for korean teams in the GSTL is a phenominal decision, if other foreigner teams entered a house with a korean team like oGs and Liquid have done, i think things could really start to pick up. imagine oGs-Liquid vs EG-SlayerS or IM-Dignitas for examples how amazing it would be to watch that!!! :D i think this decision is a step in the right direction for GSL IM-Dignitas would be so sick and Mouz-SlayerS would be better. EG players seem very anti Korea and anti becoming the best player. Don't forget about Startale-Empire and Fnatic-MVP! xD | ||
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elementz
United States281 Posts
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sandyph
Indonesia1640 Posts
On May 28 2011 03:39 Hall0wed wrote: That Anon fnatic member has to be TT1, he is just an angry person so don't mind him. no its Xeris and his whats wrong with korea article, TT1 actually make a really great post in playxp regarding this issue edit. dont want multipost ==== On May 28 2011 03:06 Nerski wrote: Which is fine when it's not costing you an arm and a leg to be out in korea. In order for it not to be super expensive, to have practice partners, to be able to deal with the cultural barriers, and to be able to still participate in the foreign scene. -Super expensive: This can be taken care of if either gsl just flat out pays expenses...which to some extent they are willing to do, so I don't think this is the largest and only barrier. GOMTV is paying the bill for top 4 MLG and that European cup winner - Practice partners: This one can be an issue, as mentioned in the xeris post most teams houses are full, and that makes it difficult for a foreign player going to korea to have a good practice schedule and people to play with. So for this to work the korean teams need to be accepting enough of foreign players to give them people to play with, or a foreign team has to move to korea to participate as an entire unit. see DoA reply a few page back, MVP and Squirtle helped the foreigner trained during GSL WC, if that's not a good practice partner I dont know what is - Cultural barriers: Without someone to essentially show you around and 'take care of you' in the sense of translating for you, or showing you where to go or not to go...there is little for you to do aside play sc2 in korea. Frankly speaking much of someones time probably would be spent playing, but they still need the occasional distraction, food, people to chat with. So essentially for a foreign player they need other foreigners there who can spend the time to show them around and help them with issues. its called getting out of your comfort zone, as a foreigner living in foreign country for the past 10 years I can tell you its not easy but its highly possible - Participating in foreign tournaments: This one is kind of big and the one gom can do the least about...however even when people like idra were there foreigners ran into issues with gom's schedule and the foreign scene. Gom was not always 100% accommodating to foreigners living in koreans want to go to other tournaments. Even if they were the only thing you could participate in practically would be the weekend lans, all internet based tournaments such as IPL/NASL/weekly cups would all be off limits just due to latency issues between korea and NA/EU/LA servers. go to nasl.tv go to standing see who are the top 2/3 on each division qed | ||
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rysecake
United States2632 Posts
On May 28 2011 11:03 sandyph wrote: no its Xeris and his whats wrong with korea article, TT1 actually make a really great post in playxp regarding this issue Is it just Xeris though? He's not even playing is he? I imagine there are a few angry fnatic players. | ||
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ilmman
364 Posts
Everyone can keep saying that the foreigners are getting close to the elite SC2 player but that's only because blizzard made everything easy for them (MBS, infinite unit select etc..) as soon as this game gets older new labour techniques will be found (remember that increase ur mineral count by 7% technique? i bet you blizzard patched that because they know koreans would be good at this it consistently with vigorous training. Then the world will fall behind.. Skilled players goto Korea and take the risk.. life is about taking risk and people who can't leave behind their friends and family then I say you people are classified as pussies... I myself travelled internationally as a student to other countries.. different cultures and new exploration.. Yes people will mock you for ur origin culture but I don't care, I am proud of it and I know they are proud of theirs.. Maybe because these players are too proud of their own culture they are scared to be mocked by other people about it.. Lol | ||
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sc2olorin
292 Posts
That said, I really feel that it is unfortunate that so professional players place such a high value on monetary gain. The truth is that if you want to compete to prove that you are the absolute best in the world RIGHT NOW, then you need to move to Korea and play in the GSL. Now I understand that some players like IdrA have priorities that are different to this, such as helping the western e-sports scene grow, and in addition there are also players focusing on things like education in the immediate future and are therefore not currently trying to prove they are the best. But from a spectator's standpoint it is quite disappointing that there are so few foreigners who have the drive and motivation to be on top. I hope that players like Naniwa and Thorzain will lead the way in this regard and show just why they have gained so many fans - their determination to be the best that they can be has risen their play levels above nearly every other foreigner, and, hopefully to Korea as well. As an aside, I know there is some speculation in this thread about which foreign team may be the most likely to be moving some or all of their players to Korea in the near future. Among those brought up have been Dignitas and Fnatic. I, for one, hope that it is indeed Dignitas that will be going out of those two teams because I believe Fnatic's skill level to be much lower than many other foreign teams, and it would be greatly disappointing as a foreign fan for a foreigner team to move to Korea and just get obliterated week-in and week-out in the team league. I mean no offense to Fnatic, of course, but I just don't see their team competing at the same level as a Korean team. | ||
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Wraith.978
Canada37 Posts
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rob0
Finland9 Posts
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rakshasa
Japan23 Posts
I myself travelled internationally as a student to other countries.. different cultures and new exploration.. Yes people will mock you for ur origin culture but I don't care, I am proud of it and I know they are proud of theirs.. Maybe because these players are too proud of their own culture they are scared to be mocked by other people about it.. Lol I have never seen this happen in Japan, nor from the many Koreans I've met here. It's actually quite easy to get in contact with people who are open to foreigners both in Japan and Korea, even if you don't speak the language. | ||
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
As to the overall post, thank you for sharing your concerns and that news regarding foreigners possibly joining with Korean teams. That would be very fun to watch. I always love to hear MC call HuK crazy as well as HuK's NASL video interviews. | ||
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rotegirte
Germany2859 Posts
On May 27 2011 22:23 DoA wrote: Mr. Chae is easily one of the hardest working people in E-sports and everyone that enjoys the GSL owes him a lot.  One topic I wanted to briefly chime in on is the subject of forgiegn players not getting good practice partners in Korea. The new rules with the GSTL are great, but I feel that it should be made clear that it was already easy to get Korean players to practice with. During the GSL world championships I know for a fact that MorroW played with ST_Squirtle, Sen practiced with IM_MVP and ST_Bomber played practice games with a number of people as well. cArn even lived in the MVP house for a time. All you have to do is ask and something can be set up. The Korean players were excited to get to practice with foreigners. So my point is this, if you're a player and the only thing holding you back from coming (that is, money and other tournaments aren't an issue for you) is the worry over if you'll have practice partners or just be stuck on the KR ladder, don't worry. The Korean players want to play with you! Heck, I even 4v4ed with Rainbow once... For anyone who missed that, i would like to highlight DoA's post once more, since he is certainly more educated on that matter than most of us. | ||
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