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On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote:
I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all.
Ridiculous statement. If these same hypothetical German players named Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever as you described are doing nothing but dedicate themselves everyday 10 hours to SC2, then I bet ya they won't have a second thought about attending a big tourney such as GSL or MLG. If all you are doing is preparing for small chum changes, why even bother to dedicate that much of your life to SC2?
You don't even understand the e-sport culture in Korea and the mindset of Korean pro programmers.
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in a backwards universe, players like MVP and MKP wouldn't exist in korea - they would exist in the US, simply because of the environment/culture. They weren't born this good, they were shaped.
Obviously they earned it with all their merit and practice, I can't even begin to think about the countless days they did nothing but play sc2, but they're not super-heroes, there's a reason people go to korea to improve as a player.
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The OP's post is one of the greatest to ever grace TL.net I too greatly hope that more foriegners will be willing to participate in GSL events.
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Guys, is all about money.
"in a hypothetical world":
lets say instead of Korea ,Cuba did have the best sc2 players,MC,MVP, and host tourneys with 2000$ prizes, would the foreigners would go there? to play with best players of the world but with little money to earn?
Dont kid yourself. they would never do it. and i dont blame them.
"in a hypothetical world":
lets say MLG started hosting monthly tourneys with extraordinary prizes like 150 000$ for first place, why would anyone would want to go to korea then? Even koreans would start moving to USA.
You see how money changes everything?
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On May 28 2011 08:18 insanet wrote:
Guys, is all about money.
"in a hypothetical world":
lets say instead of Korea ,Cuba did have the best sc2 players,MC,MVP, and host tourneys with 2000$ prizes, would the foreigners would go there? to play with best players of the world but with little money to earn?
Dont kid yourself. they would never do it. and i dont blame them.
"in a hypothetical world":
lets say MLG started hosting monthly tourneys with extraordinary prizes like 150 000$ for first place, why would anyone would want to go to korea then? Even koreans would start moving to USA.
You see how money changes everything?
GSL pays out the most money, so you are right. In the hypothetical world USA pays out $150,000 so people would move to the USA.
Winning code A may not be much, but winning code S is $50,000 dollars in a theoretical 2 months (Enter as code A player).
Thats just the prize money.
Winning code S, arguably the most prestigious tournament for SC2 nets you better deals from teams and sponsors.
Money does change everything indeed.
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On May 28 2011 07:52 jellyjello wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 02:24 Waxangel wrote:
I mean, let's not even go through the weird hypothetical "reverse-world" scenario. Let's make it more simple.
Say Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever you choose was a German, living in Germany. Then assume they have the same set of Starcraft II skills. Are they really gonna go to Korea for GSL, just because it's the most prestigious tournament? And don't even talk about the money, there's waaaay more money to earn outside Korea, and you can make it without putting all your eggs in one basket.
To reach Mr.Chae's conclusion, you have to assume that Korean players are somehow more ambitious, courageous competitors than foreign players, which I don't think is true at all. Ridiculous statement. If these same hypothetical German players named Nestea, MC, MVP or whomever as you described are doing nothing but dedicate themselves everyday 10 hours to SC2, then I bet ya they won't have a second thought about attending a big tourney such as GSL or MLG. If all you are doing is preparing for small chum changes, why even bother to dedicate that much of your life to SC2? You don't even understand the e-sport culture in Korea and the mindset of Korean pro programmers.
I think you don't understand what's he saying.
Seriously though, playing in GSL just doesn't have big advantages aside from prestige.
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On May 28 2011 08:35 superxmikey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 08:18 insanet wrote:
Guys, is all about money.
"in a hypothetical world":
lets say instead of Korea ,Cuba did have the best sc2 players,MC,MVP, and host tourneys with 2000$ prizes, would the foreigners would go there? to play with best players of the world but with little money to earn?
Dont kid yourself. they would never do it. and i dont blame them.
"in a hypothetical world":
lets say MLG started hosting monthly tourneys with extraordinary prizes like 150 000$ for first place, why would anyone would want to go to korea then? Even koreans would start moving to USA.
You see how money changes everything?
GSL pays out the most money, so you are right. In the hypothetical world USA pays out $150,000 so people would move to the USA. Winning code A may not be much, but winning code S is $50,000 dollars in a theoretical 2 months (Enter as code A player). Thats just the prize money. Winning code S, arguably the most prestigious tournament for SC2 nets you better deals from teams and sponsors. Money does change everything indeed.
4th place in Code S is about the same as winnin MLG too as far as prize goes. Even if you lose in round of 32 code S you still get the same money as 4th place at MLG.
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I can't really see foreign players in GSTL working out. It would be like the worst form of affirmative action.
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On May 28 2011 08:48 Thrill wrote:
I can't really see foreign players in GSTL working out. It would be like the worst form of affirmative action.
I'd put alot of foreign teams above Zenex and HoSeo so I'm sure they wouldn't mind a pick at a few top foreigners to flesh out their lineups. fOu Isn't that deep either.
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On May 28 2011 08:48 Thrill wrote:
I can't really see foreign players in GSTL working out. It would be like the worst form of affirmative action.
Why? It's unrealistic right now to expect foreigners to have their own team in GSTL (unless that potential team pans out.) It's not like Jinro and Huk aren't worthy of playing just because the rest of Team Liquid is not in Korea.
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On May 28 2011 08:41 pieman819 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2011 08:35 superxmikey wrote:On May 28 2011 08:18 insanet wrote:
Guys, is all about money.
"in a hypothetical world":
lets say instead of Korea ,Cuba did have the best sc2 players,MC,MVP, and host tourneys with 2000$ prizes, would the foreigners would go there? to play with best players of the world but with little money to earn?
Dont kid yourself. they would never do it. and i dont blame them.
"in a hypothetical world":
lets say MLG started hosting monthly tourneys with extraordinary prizes like 150 000$ for first place, why would anyone would want to go to korea then? Even koreans would start moving to USA.
You see how money changes everything?
GSL pays out the most money, so you are right. In the hypothetical world USA pays out $150,000 so people would move to the USA. Winning code A may not be much, but winning code S is $50,000 dollars in a theoretical 2 months (Enter as code A player). Thats just the prize money. Winning code S, arguably the most prestigious tournament for SC2 nets you better deals from teams and sponsors. Money does change everything indeed. 4th place in Code S is about the same as winnin MLG too as far as prize goes. Even if you lose in round of 32 code S you still get the same money as 4th place at MLG.
Look at all the high level players that travel across countries to play in MLG. For the amount of exposure it gets, it's got a very pitiful prize pool.
People don't travel to MLG for the money, they do it for the exposure and experience. If you apply this train of thought to GSL, and compare/contrast the tournaments, It's pretty obvious that it all comes down to convenience & the length of the tournament. 99% of the participants at MLG are gonna earn less than a Code A player. If Code S was played over 3 days I think there would be a ridiculous amount of foreigner interest, they just don't want to stay there as long. But what can you really do about that? I mean aside from set the players up with practice partners, and other pro teams, and housing accomodations....come on >_>
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On May 27 2011 19:47 Parapa wrote:
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Think of it this way. Let’s assume that there is backward universe; There is LAN tournament with equivalent size and prize pool as GSL in USA and tournaments in Korea are mostly online. If MVP, MC, Nestea and MKP were to be invited to States to participate in LAN tournament for a month(and they will be provided a place to sleep and practice like GOMTV is providing now), would they decide to go to US?
I am 100% confident that they would go. They will all fly to States to achieve their dream. Why? Simple : The tournament is worth the effort and these players have the skill to win. If you win you receive 50 thousand dollars and gain popularity from Starcraft2 fans all around the world. Barriers such as “culture/language difference” are worth enduring for such fame and money and should not be a big problem. Such barriers can be overcome if one is willing to put effort.
Statements like this makes me think GOM does not really get it, despite all their good intentions and efforts so far. He glossed over many practical issue such as
i) Who can the Koreans practice with if they were to live in the US? No player can do well in tournaments just by playing on ladder, they need practice partners that a preferably on the same server.
Let's take Naniwa for example. He mentioned he wants to go to Korea and I'm not sure how the lag and time zones will affect how he practices. I don't think GOM can much here to help him out.
ii) He didn't mention the opportunity cost of NOT being able to compete in Korea once the player leaves the country. The reality now is the prize money difference between Korea and USA/Europe is getting smaller.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
Thanks for this post. I hope more foreign players will take advantage of the opportunities GOM is giving them.
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A progamer's life in Korea doesn't seem very good to me unless you are top 15 in the world. Practicing SO much in a country where you don't even know the language or have any friends without a guarantee of any prize money at all is LOL.
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I really like it that GSL reaches out to the community personally not just through press releases. Hope you grow big!
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i think people are splitting hair on things that shouldnt matter to most people.
it is up to the player to see if he wants to travel overseas to compete in a tournament.
what makes it worthy is only determined by the player.
GSL could offer $1000 or $100,000, with or without housing, variables like language, finances, its all up to the player/sponsor to decide its worth.
now, what sets those prize pool and the financial availability from sponsors and hosts? industry.
with that said, its up to the players/sponsors to make the decision to travel to compete and everyone should be able to respect that. financial risk, fame, improvement, competition level, etc., all varies person to person.
however, bringing up things like "its not worth it, i want more, make it more convenient, language barrier, etc." conversation is moot. GOMTV is offering what is available, just like MLG, Dreamhack, and what is available is once again set by the limitation of the esports/sc2 industry or marketing power.
all major organizers/sponsors are trying to grow esports, thats their main goal and the players should have that in mind too.
one day maybe we'll have signings similar to football, where foreign sc2 players, thorzain for example, is offered 10 million dollars to play in korea for Samsung Fudgepackers or something. until then, the players and hosts must work with what the scene has. for now, offering players money to play (though thats not how sc2 scene works at the moment), is not likely to happen any time soon because the scene is so small in comparison to other sports and bw.
bottom line:
gom and all other organizers are doing their best to grow the scene.
players should help grow the scene.
right now we're(sc2 esport) going through college, living off of $50 a month for food. until we graduate, find a job, and work hard, we can't afford luxuries(signing fee, paid stuff - housing, food, traveling, etc).
so, players, organizers, viewers should work together to grow the scene, tahts the only way to satisfy everyone.
communication, understanding each other, agreement is easier said than done, and obviously, everyone is doing their best.
(fnatic's) opinionative article just stirred up unnecessary attention, to a point where i think the author should write another article to clear things up. (or not, no biggie)
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Even if a player doesn't win that much money from 2 or 3 months in SK he will improve so much and if they let a world team in GSTL then it's the best practice and competition anyone can get.
If they commit to 3 months practice they can even succeed and stay there like huk and jinro and previously idra. There is more chances now then some months ago lets see if someone grabs it.
When they go back they will be much better players.
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I am glad he brought up the changes he did.
I think though, in response to him saying that MVP, MC, Nestea, ETC would go to the states for a big tournament if it existed there, it's incorrect. If the big tournaments were being held in the states and not in Korea, then the progaming teams would exist in the states and not in Korea. I don't mean progaming teams like ROOT. I mean progaming teams like Startale, or SlayerS, who have 12-15 members living in a single house and practice 10 hours a day to compete. That type of lifestyle is not as viable in the states right now because of the lack of presence of the sc2 scene. IMMvp and MC would have an every day life that they have to live and wouldn't be able to travel to the states to do so.
This difference may not last too much longer though, as ROOT does have a gaming house (for three members) and so does FXO. But it's still not quite what Korea's is.
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I would just like to take 5 seconds and thank gom for all their hard-work, it's not everyday that you see a company who will bend and break to every little thing the community asks for
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I think the problem will almost solve itself. As price pools in Europe and North America grow it will become more attractive for Koreans to make the trip abroad. But this will also make it so that those tournaments aren't considered "easy money" anymore.
So Europeans, Americans and others are forced to participate in the (presumably) toughest competiotion GSL to not fall behind.
Of course this only holds true as long as Korea stays the toughest competition.
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EPT
