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"What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
My guess would be that a non-gamer-friend guy would be more put off by acronyms, terminology, and slang from StarCraft 2 (or other games) that they don't understand... than they would be about "BITCHES" being dropped.
Being a father I absolutely respect the OP for his thoughts and glad this topic came up, but I still think we take some of this stuff WAYYYYY too seriously. Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father.
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On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote:
"What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
My guess would be that a non-gamer-friend guy would be more put off by acronyms, terminology, and slang from StarCraft 2 (or other games) that they don't understand... than they would be about "BITCHES" being dropped.
Being a father I absolutely respect the OP for his thoughts and glad this topic came up, but I still think we take some of this stuff WAYYYYY too seriously. Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father.
Based on the context of those words, they most likely come at the start of something. Start of the cast, the start of the discussion after a game, something. Unfortunately, having those 4 words right there would make it most memorable.
I agree that people take it too seriously. It's just that, sometimes it is right to take it seriously. I don't expect any profanity to occur while I'm watching the finals of the GSL, only because of the super high production value and the extreme broad audience it is catering to. For casts that are more audience specific, or of less critical importance, then I wouldn't give a crap.
I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise.
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On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote:
Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father.
/heartstops
Thanks, Wheat. I am eager to hear your thoughts and I appreciate the thoughts of the others who are casters who have responded to this thread. Even if the ultimate answers are not exactly what I want, I know the professional Starcrafters will have to address these and other issues as the community broadens and grows.
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I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise. Profanity in itself is just a stupid concept. If you aren't using profanity to insult others, what's the problem? They're just words that intensify a feeling, like "It's a beautiful sunset" or "It's a fucking awesome match". Words are just that, words, being offended by someone saying 'fuck' is just stupid. How can you be offended by that? Are you offended by the literal act it represents? What do you think your parents did? If anything it's the most beautiful thing in the world and somehow people are 'offended' by it.
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On May 26 2011 00:28 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote:
"What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
My guess would be that a non-gamer-friend guy would be more put off by acronyms, terminology, and slang from StarCraft 2 (or other games) that they don't understand... than they would be about "BITCHES" being dropped.
Being a father I absolutely respect the OP for his thoughts and glad this topic came up, but I still think we take some of this stuff WAYYYYY too seriously. Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father. Based on the context of those words, they most likely come at the start of something. Start of the cast, the start of the discussion after a game, something. Unfortunately, having those 4 words right there would make it most memorable. I agree that people take it too seriously. It's just that, sometimes it is right to take it seriously. I don't expect any profanity to occur while I'm watching the finals of the GSL, only because of the super high production value and the extreme broad audience it is catering to. For casts that are more audience specific, or of less critical importance, then I wouldn't give a crap. I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise.
In regards to the GSL, they're catering to a mainly different audience in terms of expectations in Korea. The original version of Starcraft 2 was rated Adults Only for foul language unit Blizzard changed it, toned it down, they have different expectations and the casting is appropriate to that level more or less. Even so, there are some jokes and statements("I think I just had an orgasm") that could be considered age appropriate for the audience of the game, but not for an 8 or 12 year old. No less so than any of the innuendo on the NASL though, so I don't see an issue.
No major event is completely free of this, it's all age-appropriate to the rating of the game, look at the back of the fucking game, that's the level of content you're getting from these casts because that's the expectation as it should be.
There's nothing wrong with, "Whats up bitches?", it's age appropriate to the content of the game.
I understand that the OP may want a label, but all I'm saying is you'd have to label everything and every event, from NASL, to GSL, to TSL roughly the same...
T for violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes.
So and assume that's the rating for every event.
The current casting is age appropriate for anyone who is watching the game in my opinion. It's perfectly fine.
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On May 26 2011 00:49 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 00:28 JinDesu wrote:On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote:
"What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
My guess would be that a non-gamer-friend guy would be more put off by acronyms, terminology, and slang from StarCraft 2 (or other games) that they don't understand... than they would be about "BITCHES" being dropped.
Being a father I absolutely respect the OP for his thoughts and glad this topic came up, but I still think we take some of this stuff WAYYYYY too seriously. Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father. Based on the context of those words, they most likely come at the start of something. Start of the cast, the start of the discussion after a game, something. Unfortunately, having those 4 words right there would make it most memorable. I agree that people take it too seriously. It's just that, sometimes it is right to take it seriously. I don't expect any profanity to occur while I'm watching the finals of the GSL, only because of the super high production value and the extreme broad audience it is catering to. For casts that are more audience specific, or of less critical importance, then I wouldn't give a crap. I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise. In regards to the GSL, they're catering to a mainly different audience in terms of expectations in Korea. The original version of Starcraft 2 was rated Adults Only for foul language unit Blizzard changed it, toned it down, they have different expectations and the casting is appropriate to that level more or less. Even so, there are some jokes and statements("I think I just had an orgasm") that could be considered age appropriate for the audience of the game, but not for an 8 or 12 year old. No less so than any of the innuendo on the NASL though, so I don't see an issue. No major event is completely free of this, it's all age-appropriate to the rating of the game, look at the back of the fucking game, that's the level of content you're getting from these casts because that's the expectation as it should be. There's nothing wrong with, "Whats up bitches?", it's age appropriate to the content of the game. I understand that the OP may want a label, but all I'm saying is you'd have to label everything and every event, from NASL, to GSL, to TSL roughly the same... T for violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes. So and assume that's the rating for every event. The current casting is age appropriate for anyone who is watching the game in my opinion. It's perfectly fine.
Regarding the bit you have about the GSL - yes and no. Tastosis does not cater to the audience in Korea. However, they do have to give a show of professionalism. I don't think professionalism immediately removes "innuendos" and "Tasteless jokes" (teehee) from consideration, but cursing is something else. Yes, saying "what's up, bitches" is different from "you're a bitch". However, still using it feel unprofessional in my opinion. There are better ways to express that sort of entry/joke.
Again, it's not such a big deal when you target your audience to be a certain group (for example, the group that plays T rated games)- the group who can take such comments without care. But once you start trying to expand to more people, then considerations should be made, no?
On May 26 2011 00:41 Thorakh wrote:Show nested quote +I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise. Profanity in itself is just a stupid concept. If you aren't using profanity to insult others, what's the problem? They're just words that intensify a feeling, like "It's a beautiful sunset" or "It's a fucking awesome match". Words are just that, words, being offended by someone saying 'fuck' is just stupid. How can you be offended by that? Are you offended by the literal act it represents? What do you think your parents did? If anything it's the most beautiful thing in the world and somehow people are 'offended' by it.
Profanity can be used to express indirect anger or frustration. "This fucking ketchup bottle will NOT OPEN."
Regarding your second point: If the words have a history and context of being insulting, and the use of it is primarily to insult, how can you tell me not to be offended? When I have someone belligerent tell me, "FUCK YOUR MOTHER", well shit, I'm going to be offended.
And before anyone else brings up that "Fuck - word context" video from before - what I am saying is exactly what that video is doing. Should we be making the word "mainstream"? My feeling is no. Maybe you feel otherwise =\
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On May 26 2011 01:00 JinDesu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 00:49 Mordiford wrote:On May 26 2011 00:28 JinDesu wrote:On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote:
"What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
My guess would be that a non-gamer-friend guy would be more put off by acronyms, terminology, and slang from StarCraft 2 (or other games) that they don't understand... than they would be about "BITCHES" being dropped.
Being a father I absolutely respect the OP for his thoughts and glad this topic came up, but I still think we take some of this stuff WAYYYYY too seriously. Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father. Based on the context of those words, they most likely come at the start of something. Start of the cast, the start of the discussion after a game, something. Unfortunately, having those 4 words right there would make it most memorable. I agree that people take it too seriously. It's just that, sometimes it is right to take it seriously. I don't expect any profanity to occur while I'm watching the finals of the GSL, only because of the super high production value and the extreme broad audience it is catering to. For casts that are more audience specific, or of less critical importance, then I wouldn't give a crap. I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise. In regards to the GSL, they're catering to a mainly different audience in terms of expectations in Korea. The original version of Starcraft 2 was rated Adults Only for foul language unit Blizzard changed it, toned it down, they have different expectations and the casting is appropriate to that level more or less. Even so, there are some jokes and statements("I think I just had an orgasm") that could be considered age appropriate for the audience of the game, but not for an 8 or 12 year old. No less so than any of the innuendo on the NASL though, so I don't see an issue. No major event is completely free of this, it's all age-appropriate to the rating of the game, look at the back of the fucking game, that's the level of content you're getting from these casts because that's the expectation as it should be. There's nothing wrong with, "Whats up bitches?", it's age appropriate to the content of the game. I understand that the OP may want a label, but all I'm saying is you'd have to label everything and every event, from NASL, to GSL, to TSL roughly the same... T for violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes. So and assume that's the rating for every event. The current casting is age appropriate for anyone who is watching the game in my opinion. It's perfectly fine. Regarding the bit you have about the GSL - yes and no. Tastosis does not cater to the audience in Korea. However, they do have to give a show of professionalism. I don't think professionalism immediately removes "innuendos" and "Tasteless jokes" (teehee) from consideration, but cursing is something else. Yes, saying "what's up, bitches" is different from "you're a bitch". However, still using it feel unprofessional in my opinion. There are better ways to express that sort of entry/joke. Again, it's not such a big deal when you target your audience to be a certain group (for example, the group that plays T rated games)- the group who can take such comments without care. But once you start trying to expand to more people, then considerations should be made, no?Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 00:41 Thorakh wrote:I don't believe these words should lose their profane meaning and become a mainstream way of expressing feelings besides perhaps frustration and anger. There are just so many better words for expressing great joy, humor, and surprise. Profanity in itself is just a stupid concept. If you aren't using profanity to insult others, what's the problem? They're just words that intensify a feeling, like "It's a beautiful sunset" or "It's a fucking awesome match". Words are just that, words, being offended by someone saying 'fuck' is just stupid. How can you be offended by that? Are you offended by the literal act it represents? What do you think your parents did? If anything it's the most beautiful thing in the world and somehow people are 'offended' by it. Profanity can be used to express indirect anger or frustration. "This fucking ketchup bottle will NOT OPEN." Regarding your second point: If the words have a history and context of being insulting, and the use of it is primarily to insult, how can you tell me not to be offended? When I have someone belligerent tell me, "FUCK YOUR MOTHER", well shit, I'm going to be offended. And before anyone else brings up that "Fuck - word context" video from before - what I am saying is exactly what that video is doing. Should we be making the word "mainstream"? My feeling is no. Maybe you feel otherwise =\
I would say "No", in regards to this case.
The visual content they're seeing is still consistent to the rating you would expect, if a parent is fine with violence but not swearing that's their call, but the content in general is age appropriate to what's being seen on screen, and as I said, you can consider the T-rating with notes your point of reference, and I'd be fine with putting that at the bottom of tournament pages if that's really wanted, it does no harm.
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Regarding a rating system: who would define the ratings? Who would give the ratings? Who would enforce them? It's not exactly an easy thing to do.
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I agree with the OPs concern about language. The major casters should keep it clean. I don't let my kids (7&10) watch the Day[9] Daily anymore. He was (mostly) clean at the beginning, but got foul mouthed over the last while.
The younger kids (and the geek dads that encourage them) are the future of eSports.
As long as the casters talk like teenage boys, that's the only audience they will appeal to, and the only audience eSports will get.
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Hm... why is it that americans have a problem when their kids hear the f-word, but see absolutely no problem letting their kids watch a scene where a dark templar slices a ghost literally in half, splattering blood everywhere, his screams piercing the air?
Or a group of marines being corned by a swarm of zerglings who rip them apart mercilessly, drowning the floor in their blood?
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You parents shouldn't let your kids on the internet then.
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I agree with the OP. I'm a parent 24/7 (2yr old, another on the way) and I'd like to continue to enjoy SC2 content regardless of that fact. Like any other sporting event, I expect to be able to watch hockey (Go Canucks Go) minus the f-bombs and to be honest off coloured jokes. I can turn on any sports channel or radio talk show and get generally explicative free content. I treat SC2 similar way, often streaming something as background noise as I'm doing something else and not actively watching it. I know the community players well enough that I generally know what is safe and isn't. But an extra tool would be helpful, pretty certain GOM, NASL, IPL and MLG are all going to be clean or clean enough for me to have on.
Is that smaller tournament cast by relative unknowns going to be clean? From experience, probably not so i'm not going to fire it up. Is State of the Game going to be clean, fuck no and it shouldn't be and I know what I'm getting and love it. However is Inside the Game? I've watched the episodes, but I'm not sure where it's trying to fall, it's got Geoff and it's the middle of the day and starts with 'what up biatches'. But I can't really recall a lot of profanity so I think it's safe-ish at least.
But as a general rule, just shut the fuck up with your profanity. I don't want to hear it whether I have a kid or not.
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On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote:
"What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
You won't find those words in any mainstream coverage about any mainstream sport.
I think there SHOULD be foul-mouthed casters running internet shows that appeal to people who like that sort of thing.
BUT I think there should ALSO be shows/casts that parents can be comfortable letting their 7 yr old future GSL winner watch. Especially more improve-your-game sorts of shows. The current scene is dominated by the former.
IDEA - someone should make a list of kid friendly casters and shows.
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On May 26 2011 01:25 CrushDog5 wrote:
I agree with the OPs concern about language. The major casters should keep it clean. I don't let my kids (7&10) watch the Day[9] Daily anymore. He was (mostly) clean at the beginning, but got foul mouthed over the last while.
The younger kids (and the geek dads that encourage them) are the future of eSports.
As long as the casters talk like teenage boys, that's the only audience they will appeal to, and the only audience eSports will get.
I disagree.
It's like taking your kids to a PG-13 movie, and then being pissed that there was some profanity in addition to people being blown up all over the the place. It's age appropriate to the content on screen, I think casters are generally doing a fine job in regards to keeping it appropriate. If you're fine with one aspect(violence) but not another(mild profanity) then you can take the time for find specific casters for that, and I'd encourage anyone who wants to push such a tag to go for it.
But a far as ANY event goes, it has always been and should always be age appropriate to the content of the game.
It's an individual perturbation to the profanity, while not minding the violence. I think that all event casting I've seen so far has been age appropriate.
The violence would still earn it the same rating and then it would have just been down to parent who were okay with that but not the rest of the content and wanted to watch it with their kids, that becomes cultural, some people are fine with violence but not profanity, some are fine with profanity but not violence. The content as a whole is age appropriate for it's rating.
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On May 26 2011 00:20 djWHEAT wrote:
"What is up bitches!"
4 words.
4 fucking words.
A standard cast will consist of Thousands of words. But it's 4 words that people latch onto.
My guess would be that a non-gamer-friend guy would be more put off by acronyms, terminology, and slang from StarCraft 2 (or other games) that they don't understand... than they would be about "BITCHES" being dropped.
Being a father I absolutely respect the OP for his thoughts and glad this topic came up, but I still think we take some of this stuff WAYYYYY too seriously. Looking forward to discussing this topic on Weapon of Choice this week - because I do have opinions as a caster (who likes the medium of the internet because i can be a bit more mature) and opinions as a father.
Thank you WHEAT. I was waiting for someone to post this. I'm not a father so using mature language and mature jokes come natural and I don't think anything of them. I view this as I do music. Censorship takes away from what the artist was saying. Your "What is up bitches!" is your catch line and something people can identify with being as you. There's no way in hell I'd watch a censored version of SOTG or Weapon of Choice. It just wouldn't happen, because I enjoy the mature nature of young adults/adults being who they are and not some "oh god i hope i don't offend somebody". I understand where the OP is coming from but feel that the internet community is not ready for censored casting.
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On May 26 2011 01:34 VillageBC wrote:
I agree with the OP. I'm a parent 24/7 (2yr old, another on the way) and I'd like to continue to enjoy SC2 content regardless of that fact. Like any other sporting event, I expect to be able to watch hockey (Go Canucks Go) minus the f-bombs and to be honest off coloured jokes. I can turn on any sports channel or radio talk show and get generally explicative free content. I treat SC2 similar way, often streaming something as background noise as I'm doing something else and not actively watching it. I know the community players well enough that I generally know what is safe and isn't. But an extra tool would be helpful, pretty certain GOM, NASL, IPL and MLG are all going to be clean or clean enough for me to have on.
Is that smaller tournament cast by relative unknowns going to be clean? From experience, probably not so i'm not going to fire it up. Is State of the Game going to be clean, fuck no and it shouldn't be and I know what I'm getting and love it. However is Inside the Game? I've watched the episodes, but I'm not sure where it's trying to fall, it's got Geoff and it's the middle of the day and starts with 'what up biatches'. But I can't really recall a lot of profanity so I think it's safe-ish at least.
But as a general rule, just shut the fuck up with your profanity. I don't want to hear it whether I have a kid or not.
Actually, the major events you listed aren't always 100% clean. None of them are, and that's fine, it's still age appropriate.
If you're fine with one thing but not another, that's your prerogative, but I don't think casters should be expected to adhere to it. It doesn't compare to other sporting events in the same way, because the game itself has a rating with "violence, blood and gore". It's like allowing your kids to watch wrestling or having it playing in your house, or UFC or whatever, the violence and blood are okay to you, but in general it's considered to be age restrictive and in that target, the profanity is age appropriate.
So, Casters? keep doing what you're doing. Players in interviews? Keep doing what you're doing. No need to shut the fuck up with anything.
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I don't understand this, the most important part of being a parent is teaching your kids stuff. And one of the things you should teach them is just because the people on the internet swear, it doesn't mean they should too. There is literally no reason to censor words from your children. Even if you have a 7 year old that hears day9 say "Go and fucking kill him." What does that really do to the kid? Nothing at all.
It's okay watching all the gore filled deaths in video games or movies but god forbid they see a tit or hear a bad word.
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well ideally sc2 casters mimic the professionalism of sports casters on tv. we can clearly see that those 'casters' are successful and do a good job of commentating while we watch the action.
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Man when I was a kid I knew like almost every sexual reference and bs when I turned 12. Parents like to think that their kids are completely innocent but once you go to school its like hats off your gonna learn retarded things some things you wish you never learned. Its better to just embrace the curse words then censor em. Its not like sc2 commentators are talking about the dirtiest most disgusting senile crap they just hit a few swear notes here and there to express how they feel.
In large tournaments I haven't noticed or heard any bad language its just usually personal stuff will you ever get to hear it.
In most cases its just the players playing in the game would curse and it will be viewed beause its broadcasted live. It happens, players curse all the time in every sport whether you like it or not. People can put the language filter on sc2 because yes there is an option but in the end of the day 99% of the people would like to see for themselves that yes indeed idra told Huk to go fuck off.
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On May 26 2011 02:02 JiYan wrote:
well ideally sc2 casters mimic the professionalism of sports casters on tv. we can clearly see that those 'casters' are successful and do a good job of commentating while we watch the action.
The thing is, casting is based on a game that itself has a rating. There is an age restriction/recommendation/expectation just by the very nature of the game that isn't present in other sports.
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EPT
