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On May 26 2011 03:01 VillageBC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 02:35 Mordiford wrote:
I don't think it compares, because I can't think of any other sporting event that is violent in the same sense, unless some huge mishap happens and someone gets seriously hurt. In addition, Starcraft 2 has it's own rating so if you disagree and don't find it particularly violent that's your call, but it's there and it's rated accordingly.
Can you please give me an example of a profanity laced cast that detracts from the game? There are plenty of casters I have trouble enjoying but I honestly can't think of a single one that puts be me off because of their profanity. At most you get some minor expletives, F-bombs are so few and far between that I don't consider it an issue. Maybe I just haven't encountered the casts you have, but for the life of me I can't think of something I would consider age inappropriate for the game or offensive to me personally(or anyone I know).
Everything in the world alienates some people because of it's content, any violent movie could have the cussing removed to potentially invite kids with parents who don't give a crap about people being melted and sliced and half but don't like swear words, but there are age expectations based on ratings and content is made age appropriate around that. Pretty much all casting I've encountered has been age appropriate to the content of Starcraft 2, and if you look at the label on the box, it actually turns out that it matches what you can expect from any cast.
I don't see why the rating of the game and the cast are being equated. They are both separate entities, and I can listen to a cast without watching the game. I can follow a tournament and never actually watch a match. UFC is brutal, I don't watch it but is their profanity in their commentary? Can't really give a direct example of profanity laced casts that detract from the game. I've found the major players to be mostly fine, and the occasional dropped f-bomb isn't a big deal. Only if it was being dropped in every game casts, then it would matter. But I've tried to some of the smaller tournament casts out there and I found the lessor known casters do tend to drop too many f-bombs for my tastes that I just stopped tuning them in. There are shows I wish I could listen to but can't when the kids around like Day9, but it just became too much and kid is at that stage where she picks up language and you can't just explain to her not to use that word. =) For obvious reasons, I just avoid peoples streams though I don't recall Sheth swearing, I could be wrong and Idra never talks so he's often safe. 
Well, in terms of smaller tournaments, that's sort of their own thing. I guess you guys could push for a label for people who want to push themselves as profanity free, but that's up to them.
As for major tournaments, leagues and casts I think there's nothing that should be changed in regards to appropriateness. I can't think of anything profanity-wise that has made me go, "Wow that was unprofessional/inappropriate", there are some jokes I find dumb but that's it's own thing. The only thing that sticks out in my mind is the When Cheese Fails segment during the NASL which was immediately acknowledged by inControl as inappropriate.
I can't recall a major caster saying, "That army just got raped" in any significant event, but I agree for a cast that would be inappropriate.
Basically, I don't see any fix necessary, I do think the rating of the game should be an easy identifier for the level of content you can expect in most casts, most events with any significant prize pool or organization has been age appropriate to the rating and labeling of the game.
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Well, yeah.. Hence why I have no issues having NASL, IPL, GSL, and MLG casts. They are keeping themselves in check fine if they didn't I wouldn't be watching them. A voluntary rating system or self identifying rating system would be an additional nice courtesy to have and additional tool for me. When I evaluate your stream/show/podcast/whatever and if or what timeslot I fit you into.
Can I listen to this at work, when the kids around or do I need to wait until tonight?
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On May 26 2011 02:53 RoyalCheese wrote:I think the error in your (and many other peoples) judgement is assuming that whatever works in sports should be automatically transfered to esports cast. I would argue that that is not the case. The people who watch Starcraft are for the most part very different demographic that watch normal sports and therefore prefer other style of cast. I for one, enjoy curse words when used appropriately and when the whole cast is not based upon them. But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there?  )
I don't see where you get that from. I play SC2 everyday, but I also follow all the major sports. What does my taste in video games have to do with my taste in sports? Fans of e sports and regular team sports are comprized of a huge number of young males I would guess right?
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On May 26 2011 03:36 CarachAngren wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 02:53 RoyalCheese wrote:I think the error in your (and many other peoples) judgement is assuming that whatever works in sports should be automatically transfered to esports cast. I would argue that that is not the case. The people who watch Starcraft are for the most part very different demographic that watch normal sports and therefore prefer other style of cast. I for one, enjoy curse words when used appropriately and when the whole cast is not based upon them. But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there? ) I don't see where you get that from. I play SC2 everyday, but I also follow all the major sports. What does my taste in video games have to do with my taste in sports? Fans of e sports and regular team sports are comprized of a huge number of young males I would guess right?
The "young males" demographic is not exactly homogeneous.
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On May 26 2011 03:44 Hatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 03:36 CarachAngren wrote:On May 26 2011 02:53 RoyalCheese wrote:I think the error in your (and many other peoples) judgement is assuming that whatever works in sports should be automatically transfered to esports cast. I would argue that that is not the case. The people who watch Starcraft are for the most part very different demographic that watch normal sports and therefore prefer other style of cast. I for one, enjoy curse words when used appropriately and when the whole cast is not based upon them. But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there? ) I don't see where you get that from. I play SC2 everyday, but I also follow all the major sports. What does my taste in video games have to do with my taste in sports? Fans of e sports and regular team sports are comprized of a huge number of young males I would guess right? The "young males" demographic is not exactly homogeneous.
Horrible example I know, I just hate that point that people who like a computer game can't like sports. Makes no sense. People can be fans of more than one thing. Which is why esports would be smart to be more friendly to a younger/more sensitive audience. It only makes sense to appeal to the masses, although I know many will disagree with that. It'll bring in more views which can get more sponsors, ad revenue, etc. Sure the cursing makes it interesting in the shows (day9, sotg, etc) but for the bigtime casts, just keep it to the action in the game and ease off the bad words. I would think thats the smart way to go no?
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I would be extremely surprised if your 12 year old kid hasn't already been exposed to all this profanity that you are worried about from SC2 casts.
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On May 26 2011 02:53 RoyalCheese wrote: But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there? )
I'm not offended when I hear curse words, I think it sounds amateurish. If we're ok with that as a community, then fine. No one is going to lose their mind when they hear the word shit or fuck. Kids here this stuff at school every day. Its simply about professionalism and treating competitive SC2 as a serious profession and not as a hobby/pass time. When you hear "Holy shit, that army just got raped!" its just like saying "Hey, I've no training in this profession and I'm just saying what comes to my mind." This is what I mean when I say amateurish. It can be done better, I think someone like DJ Wheat manages to say get away with things like "What is up bitches?!" at the beginning of his casts because he actually comes across as professional and its a sort of calling card. But when its just random exclamation, it sounds like the person casting has no control over what is coming out of their mouths.
I'm not calling for censorship, if casters want to keep cursing, then go right ahead. Its just important that they realize they are doing it, what the consequences of it is, and whether or not they want to keep doing it. Its about our approach to the game. If this is "for us, by us" then whatever. But if its about something bigger, we need to consider our position in a large context. Simple as that.
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On May 26 2011 04:03 Essentia wrote:
I would be extremely surprised if your 12 year old kid hasn't already been exposed to all this profanity that you are worried about from SC2 casts.
I like the viewpoint because someone is exposed to something from one source it's okay for them to be exposed to that something from any other source. I can get behind that, it makes total sense.
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How many times are people going to post "Hurrrr your kid already knows those words" without reading the thread?
I'm sure the OP was not seeking parenting advice from those who don't have kids of their own, which I am certain is what the majority of this thread contains.
I see both sides of the argument. Starcraft 2 is rated as a "Teen" game, we all understand that.
But in the end, anything that brings Starcraft to a broader audience is fine by me. I feel as though unnecessary swearing provides nothing beneficial to the product or to the community.
I would also like to link to this thread by DJWheat (which may have already been posted, I apologize if so). Just because Starcraft 2 is not aimed at youngsters, it does not mean that it cannot be enjoyed through parental guidance and moderation.
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I think if esports is going to grow its going to be the younger generation that helps it grow(more likely to get a 12 yr old to turn in then convince a 30 yr old whos mind is already set that pro gaming is awesome) so watching the language in casts wouldnt only benefit the scene imo. However i really dont see anyone being all that vulgar while casting tournies?
The only negative casting i see is sexual ineuendo and really a large majority of "kid" movies have jokes in there ment for the adults to get and thats suppose to fly over your kids head. And i see that as whats happening in casts.
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On May 26 2011 04:20 Karshe wrote:How many times are people going to post "Hurrrr your kid already knows those words" without reading the thread? I'm sure the OP was not seeking parenting advice from those who don't have kids of their own, which I am certain is what the majority of this thread contains. I see both sides of the argument. Starcraft 2 is rated as a "Teen" game, we all understand that. But in the end, anything that brings Starcraft to a broader audience is fine by me. I feel as though unnecessary swearing provides nothing beneficial to the product or to the community. I would also like to link to this thread by DJWheat (which may have already been posted, I apologize if so). Just because Starcraft 2 is not aimed at youngsters, it does not mean that it cannot be enjoyed through parental guidance and moderation.
I wouldn't really have casters change anything though, because I think it's fine as is. What would you recommend? They seem pretty good about not being excessive, the little profanity that is there isn't an issue to me and if it's an issue to you, then once again, the "Teen" rating is a fine response...
You can effectively make the argument to change anything to appeal to a wider audience, for example... Most PG-13 violent action films could have their profanity removed, but the film would still be PG-13 and it would come down to a parent being okay with violence but not okay with profanity. This seems like a cultural thing, more or less so I don't see how you'd want to go about it.
As for a label, I encourage individual casters to add a tag to their YouTube/Justin.tv/Ustream channel saying "Profanity Free" or whatever but as for any major event, it's always going to satisfy it's age expected rating regardless of the profanity. Should we request a censored version of the game for people who are fine with the language but don't like the violent imagery?
It's a cultural thing and I don't think it's fair to highlight profanity as an issue when it's mild as hell for all but the small tournaments run by first time or newer casters(who I don't really watch so I don't know how bad it is), but for most tournaments and leagues, yes there's language, yes there's some suggestive jokes but that's age appropriate for the rating of the game.There's a lot you could do to any game, movie, show, song to make it okay for younger audiences but when there's an age restrictive aspect that will be there and you're leaving in, I don't think it makes sense.
DJWheat is fine with letting MiniWheat play SC2, I'd be fine with letting my kid play it honestly, in a controlled environment. I don't have an issue with it, but if you do, you shouldn't let them play or watch casts because by the rating it's age inappropriate regardless, I wouldn't say a word to the casters about it because they're by and large doing a bang-up job in that respect, keeping it PG-13.
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Hmm, I guess I will never understand what the big deal is with curse-words.
First of all, even though it's kept on a down-low around parents nobody curses more than children.
Especially if it's forbidden. That makes it cooler.
I was never ever shielded from cursing growing up, there's no harm in hearing swearing whatsoever.
I heard a lot of cursing and I can't come up with a single example of it being harmful to any part of me.
What's weird is that even though neither me or anyone in my family has ever had a problem with cursing I have never cursed in front of my parents ever. I'm 27.
When I'm with my friends it's a natural part of my vocabulary, why shouldn't it be?
If the word fits the situation it should be used in variance with its synonyms, why stomp my vocabulary for no reason?
Secondly children don't get sex jokes at all. It flies right above their heads. Eg I remember rewatching movies I watched when I was younger like Ace Ventura or Police Academy that had blatant blow job-scenes. When I was a kid had no idea, and I was a bright bright kid, I even skipped a grade. Still when I watched those scenes I was completely oblivious to what was really going on.
IMO it's ignorant to protect children from hearing swearing. You think it's wrong probably only because that's how you were brought up. The adverse effect from being subjected to cursewords is artificially created in your society. The "problem" should become extinct when people stop using circular reasoning and think for themself. I know that's an extremely arrogant thing to say, but that is my opinion and I feel you're trying to handle a problem that shouldn't be an issue in the first place.
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On May 26 2011 03:54 CarachAngren wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 03:44 Hatsu wrote:On May 26 2011 03:36 CarachAngren wrote:On May 26 2011 02:53 RoyalCheese wrote:I think the error in your (and many other peoples) judgement is assuming that whatever works in sports should be automatically transfered to esports cast. I would argue that that is not the case. The people who watch Starcraft are for the most part very different demographic that watch normal sports and therefore prefer other style of cast. I for one, enjoy curse words when used appropriately and when the whole cast is not based upon them. But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there? ) I don't see where you get that from. I play SC2 everyday, but I also follow all the major sports. What does my taste in video games have to do with my taste in sports? Fans of e sports and regular team sports are comprized of a huge number of young males I would guess right? The "young males" demographic is not exactly homogeneous. Horrible example I know, I just hate that point that people who like a computer game can't like sports. Makes no sense. People can be fans of more than one thing. Which is why esports would be smart to be more friendly to a younger/more sensitive audience. It only makes sense to appeal to the masses, although I know many will disagree with that. It'll bring in more views which can get more sponsors, ad revenue, etc. Sure the cursing makes it interesting in the shows (day9, sotg, etc) but for the bigtime casts, just keep it to the action in the game and ease off the bad words. I would think thats the smart way to go no?
People can certainly enjoy both traditional sports and Esports, but that does not imply that they want or need them to be the same. I, for example, love watching basketball and SC2 and I can appreciate the cultural difference between the two. So yes, there is certainly a certain amount of overlapping and I am sure that Blizzard, being a competent company, has done its market research and figured it out. However none of us here has any actual data so we are speculating, which is pointless.
Also, keep in mind that being "mainstream" is not always the best business decision. SC2 could do very well even by just filling its own not-so-little niche.
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I think being afraid to let your kids hear jokes above their maturity is just a stupid fear, heres what happens when a kid heres a joke thats above their maturity level.... they don't get it. Oh well it will be funny in a few years, hearing the word fuck does not make your kid into a drug addict, stop worrying about stuff that can't hurt kids and start worrying about stuff that can like our failing education system, because its more concerned with kids not hearing the word fuck then it is with teaching them shit. GG NO RE
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On May 26 2011 04:40 Mordiford wrote:
*snip*
As for a label, I encourage individual casters to add a tag to their YouTube/Justin.tv/Ustream channel saying "Profanity Free" or whatever but as for any major event, it's always going to satisfy it's age expected rating regardless of the profanity. Should we request a censored version of the game for people who are fine with the language but don't like the violent imagery?
*snip*
Well, it does have an option to turn off gore in the game settings. Haven't tried it, I should just to see. I think China's version has been changed as well. =) Still going to maintain the game rating is unrelated to the cast language, Counter-Strike is rated mature. I wouldn't expect or appreciate casters (does it have them? I just assumed) profanity in that either. Maybe CS doesn't have anything of that nature. I just remember watching plenty of matches, but no casts. =)
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From what i get from the OP, the TE does not want censorship or something like that, he basically wants a parents guide to casters. And in my opinion, there is abolutely nothing wrong with that.
You could even make a thread, and maybe somehow formulate the OP so that it encourages less discussion about the legitimacy of such a thing, and more like-minded people to post their experiences with different casters, so that you know what to expect when you turn on a specific stream.
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On May 26 2011 03:54 CarachAngren wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 03:44 Hatsu wrote:On May 26 2011 03:36 CarachAngren wrote:On May 26 2011 02:53 RoyalCheese wrote:I think the error in your (and many other peoples) judgement is assuming that whatever works in sports should be automatically transfered to esports cast. I would argue that that is not the case. The people who watch Starcraft are for the most part very different demographic that watch normal sports and therefore prefer other style of cast. I for one, enjoy curse words when used appropriately and when the whole cast is not based upon them. But that maybe because english isn't my native language so I'm not fucking at all offended when hearing curse words. (you see what i did there? ) I don't see where you get that from. I play SC2 everyday, but I also follow all the major sports. What does my taste in video games have to do with my taste in sports? Fans of e sports and regular team sports are comprized of a huge number of young males I would guess right? The "young males" demographic is not exactly homogeneous. I just hate that point that people who like a computer game can't like sports. Makes no sense.
Yes, it makes no sense. That's why i said something completely different. I said that SC2 viewers are not necessarily the sports viewers. Therefore it's stupid to just blindly copy what works there without thinking and experimenting.
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On May 26 2011 04:13 VillageBC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 04:03 Essentia wrote:
I would be extremely surprised if your 12 year old kid hasn't already been exposed to all this profanity that you are worried about from SC2 casts. I like the viewpoint because someone is exposed to something from one source it's okay for them to be exposed to that something from any other source. I can get behind that, it makes total sense. Instead of shielding children from swear words, you should learn children that they shouldn't curse if you feel that strong about it. They will be exposed (and probably have been already) to them anyway. Better to teach them that swear words are bad (which they are not, but you think they are) instead of covering their ears every time.
I don't have children myself yet and I'm not trying to teach you how to parent (which would be stupid), but that's the way I'm going to do it myself.
I'd be more concerned with the violence in SC2 instead of some innocent words.
When you hear "Holy shit, that army just got raped!" its just like saying "Hey, I've no training in this profession and I'm just saying what comes to my mind." Well, you shouldn't say rape anyway, because that actually is a bad word, unlike fuck and shit. I indeed have a problem with casters who say 'raped'. That is amateurish, not some usage of fuck and shit.
But when its just random exclamation, it sounds like the person casting has no control over what is coming out of their mouths. Why? What's the difference between "That match was fucking awesome!" and "That match was fantastic!".
I'm not calling for censorship, if casters want to keep cursing, then go right ahead. Its just important that they realize they are doing it, what the consequences of it is, and whether or not they want to keep doing it. Its about our approach to the game. If this is "for us, by us" then whatever. But if its about something bigger, we need to consider our position in a large context. Simple as that. I say we don't give in to stupid people that think words affect children more than all the graphic violence.
I'm offended by people being offended by curse words.
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On May 25 2011 01:25 Scrubington wrote:
What's wrong with just wearing headphones? or simply not watching it with younger children.
What's wrong with acting professional and not using those words in a cast where tens of thousands of people are tuning in?
I'm obviously not going to let my children listen to SOTG but I certainly want to get them involved and get them into watching these tourneys.
It's not just children either. I highly doubt these big business sponsors want to put their label in front of sexual innuendos and f bombs.
EDIT: Quoted the wrong person T.T
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On May 26 2011 06:38 Thorakh wrote:
Instead of shielding children from swear words, you should learn children that they shouldn't curse if you feel that strong about it. They will be exposed (and probably have been already) to them anyway. Better to teach them that swear words are bad (which they are not, but you think they are) instead of covering their ears every time.
I don't have children myself yet and I'm not trying to teach you how to parent (which would be stupid), but that's the way I'm going to do it myself.
I'd be more concerned with the violence in SC2 instead of some innocent words.
You'll change your tune when you are a parent. I thought the same thing, then I became one. It's not so simple and there's lots of juggling various aspects of their exposures to all sorts of things. There is a rather long period of time where they are exposed, taking in things and they do not have a way to grasp the concept of acceptable or not. They are just mimics and I'd still like to enjoy SC2 during the next 5 years (2nd kid on the way =)) while they move through that stage.
There's an obvious divide of people who have experience raising children and those who don't in here. I'm new at, but what I thought going in and what I think now are two different things. It's much more fun then I expected. =)
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EPT
