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As many have stated before, I think consistency is the key. The OP clearly stated that he'd just mute the cast if the language was crude - no harm done and everyone's happy. I'd hate to see stones being thrown for a slip up though.
Off topic:
As for the general idea that clean language is a vital part of professionalism and directly reflects the maturity of the speaker, I can't disagree more. While the notion is generally accepted, it is naught but elitism in my eyes.
Cussing can be hilarious. The chill vs combatEX grudge match is a prime example of comedy :>
Off off topic:
Not to bash on anyone's parenting, but kids usually know more than the parents expect them to. Language and sexual references (obvious ones) are probably closer to a child than most would assume at an adult age. Protecting your kids is admirable but often overdone 
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On May 25 2011 03:39 Dhystopia wrote:
If a parent wants to find appropriate content they could be a bit more proactive and screen content like VODs beforehand to make sure it fits their standards. It's better for parents to not have to rely on other people to do their job for them. This would solve the problem by itself and we wouldn't have to worry about "labeling" all content.
Maybe in some ideal world, but that is not how parents handle content in our society - almost everything is rated. It's not going to help grow the viewership if parents who care about this have to watch everything twice. The tournaments are already pretty much PG or PG-13, so it would just be a matter of setting an expectation and sticking to it. Very easy to label it.
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It seems that I need to move to Sweden because my reaction to "curse" words is nothing like most Americans. Words mean only what you want them to mean, if you stop making a big deal of them kids won't either. It wouldn't be so taboo (yet appealing) for a kid to say fuck if people didn't blow it out of proportion. I can see the argument for limiting use of the word rape, as it can easily cause discomfort for a victim, but I really wish people would stop caring about fuck etc. and care about something that is actually important.
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Kids do not need your protection...
(Unless it is some extreme hardcore porn or some serious violence, like footage of real violence or something...)
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On May 25 2011 05:36 Treemonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 03:39 Dhystopia wrote:
If a parent wants to find appropriate content they could be a bit more proactive and screen content like VODs beforehand to make sure it fits their standards. It's better for parents to not have to rely on other people to do their job for them. This would solve the problem by itself and we wouldn't have to worry about "labeling" all content. Maybe in some ideal world, but that is not how parents handle content in our society - almost everything is rated. It's not going to help grow the viewership if parents who care about this have to watch everything twice. The tournaments are already pretty much PG or PG-13, so it would just be a matter of setting an expectation and sticking to it. Very easy to label it.
They are pretty consistent though, they stay around the PG-13 mark and never really go above that...
If you want a label, I guess... why not...
I'd recommend just look at the back of the Starcraft 2 box, interestingly enough it's pretty representative of the level of casting of most all events...
** 13+
- Blood and Gore
- Language
- Suggestive Themes
- Violence
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I guarantee you, your 12 year old has heard a lot worse at school.
In my opinion, it's not a big deal.
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On May 25 2011 05:38 Moderas wrote:
It seems that I need to move to Sweden because my reaction to "curse" words is nothing like most Americans. Words mean only what you want them to mean, if you stop making a big deal of them kids won't either. It wouldn't be so taboo (yet appealing) for a kid to say fuck if people didn't blow it out of proportion. I can see the argument for limiting use of the word rape, as it can easily cause discomfort for a victim, but I really wish people would stop caring about fuck etc. and care about something that is actually important.
come on now... I don't understand this ...
I dont know anyone that is offended by cussing unless it is a intentionally offensive word like racials slurs etc.
people in this thread are acting like Americans dont cuss... wtf thats not true at all
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On May 25 2011 05:25 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 05:20 Molkovien wrote:
Everything else aside, I honestly do not think f-bombs and the term rape ever add anything to the game.
That does not mean we can't have mature content, but random swearing just, in my opinion, seems juvenile.
F-bombs are super rare and rape is pretty taboo anyways... F-bombs are fine to me, as long as they are few and far between, I mean honestly, I can't imagine myself bursting out laughing if Strelok hadn't opened his opening interview question with, "You know... it was like 'What the fuck?'".
Well, the frequency of 'rape' did decline from beta till now, I'll give you that much. I don't think it's much of a problem, though.
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No censorship.
If you don't want your kids to use the words, explain it to them.
You have them watch hundreds of people/aliens/creatures get killed but don't appreciate harsh language?
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On May 25 2011 05:43 Psychobabas wrote:
I guarantee you, your 12 year old has heard a lot worse at school.
In my opinion, it's not a big deal. This is very true. I remember 6 years ago cussing was quite common and I went to a private parochial school where consequences for language misconduct were strictly enforced.
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Someone brought up the idea of rating casters. While this might work, it also has some pitfalls.
As an example, DJ Wheat and Incontrol both cast for various tournaments. In TSL and NASL each of them were pretty clean IMO. Then I turn on the EG Master's Cup the other night (by myself) and hear several swear words from each of them. In this case, the casters apparently are tailoring their language to the standards set for the tournament. So I'm assuming those standards exist in some form ranging from "don't say these words" to "say whatever you want". I'd like a way to see those guidelines just like I can see the tournament format, prize pool, rules, etc.
I know MLG has some standards as well because last year at MLG Dallas after a day of casting I heard Day9 say "I haven't been able to swear all day".
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First let me say, that I'm not a fan of Gretorps weird and inapproriate jokes, but me not being American and live by your standards, what worries me is how afraid people are of your 12-year-old kid hearing the word 'fuck' or something similar.
An example could easily be Tastosis. I don't think they are inapproriate at all and most times they are often bringing very kid-friendly jokes to the table, but they overstep boundaries as well. But that just makes it more fun to some extent, if you ask me.
I agree with this. Your children are going to hear those big scary 'bad words' whether you like it or not. I definitely respect your wishes and you should parent however you think is best.
Honestly I'm not sure how to resolve your issue. I mean, you already know which casts are normally 'PG'. The only way to get what you want, is for casters/organizations to essentially sign a document saying that they won't ever slip out a cuss?
I just don't really understand what is so horrible about how you do things now. You seem deeply afraid of the effects a single 'F-bomb' can have on your children, and all I can say is that they will be fine. From what you have said, you have been able to mute the cuss word sufficiently. It kind of boggles my mind how you can be so afraid of a SINGLE f-bomb dropping. You act as if they don't sneak in naughty TV when you aren't looking(or they are at a friend's house) or cuss to their friends all day at school. They will hear it from plenty of other sources... So is them hearing one single slip from a SC2 stream really worth all of the effort just to... POSSIBLY prevent a single F-bomb slipping from a particular commentators mouth?
It sure doesn't seem like it to me. My parents educated me on what the bad words are and what not to say in public and I listened. I also watched all kind of cussing on TV and movies and it never hurt me in any way.
It just seems like your child is going to hear cussing in real life many more times/week than he will hear it from a SC2 cast, especially when you already know which casters rarely cuss.
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I don't really see the problem with a little swearing here and there, maybe that is because us in Scandinavia are a little more liberal than americans. But seriously though, I have watched a lot of streams and I can't say I can point out any of them and say they wouldnt be suitable for a 12 yr old.
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I haven't gone through all thirteen pages of this thread, but Starcraft 2 has a T rating, so the language used by the commentators should at minimum coincide with this rating. There isn't a place to complain if your child is under the age suggested to play the game in the first place. If the commentators do plan on using adult language, there should be some sort of warning for those who are worried about those types of things.
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On May 25 2011 01:34 mahrgell wrote:
StarCraft2 is depending on country for ppl 12+ to 16+ (in some countries the uncensored version is 18+)
Why does the language on a stream about 12+ content need to be adjusted for 8 years old?
Many parents don't want their 12 year olds being exposed to f-bombs either.
America is a bit weird in this respect - adults swear all the time, but the "but not in front of the kids!!" attitude is extremely prevalent, even from parents who swear a lot themselves outside of their kids' presence.
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The OP is an example of the audience that esports needs to reach out to in order to achieve the mainstream appeal of conventional sports. Within esport communities there's this awful tendency (perhaps something to do with the young base) to demand broad acceptance without compromise. This sort of thing is simply not realistic, and if we continue to demand that mainstream audiences see the "error in their ways" and embrace SC2, gaming, e-sports, without compromise, the communities will see no growth.
Whether we like it or not, the perception of professionalism and maturity plays a huge role in whether an endeavour is positively or negatively received. While we might reflexively want to argue the absurdity of societal expectations, being the brash young adults we are, we should take a moment to consider where these expectations come from.
In regards to the issue of language: I think people misunderstand the nature of crude language and its usage. While to an extent some of us find it displeasing due to conditioning, crude language also exists to serve the purpose of expressing mild to extreme disrespect. Words like "fuck" and "rape" are not artificial; they exist because we need them to exist. The presence of cursing in a broadcast or communique can indicate colloquiality, casual dirsregard, or even contempt, depending on the frequency used. That is to say, cursing is a tool that we use intuitively. We censor ourselves when we wish to express respect and friendliness, and we swear when we wish to express disrespect, either explicitly to our enemies or ironically to our friends.
With this in mind, we need to accept that a fastidious attitude toward language is something we must embrace as esports continues to grow. We must understand that cursing in large-scale events like GSL and TSL would have very negative consequences, not because society at large is afraid of words like "fuck," but because it takes offense to the implications of the word "fuck" in a prestigious and mainstream events.
And when it comes to parents, we should recognize that the desire to teach our children the differences between "good" and "bad" words comes not from the irrational fear of the words, but from the intuitive desire to teach our kids good diplomacy.
PS: The argument that Starcraft is a "mature" game and thus should be exempted from mainstream expectations misses the issue entirely. It's not an issue of values or parenting, it's an issue of professionalism.
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Post game interviews are the responsibility of both the players being interviewed, and the organisation informing the players that they shouldn't be dropping f bombs etc.
As for broadcasting, I've only really seen gretorp push the edge with his attempts at innuendo jokes.
GSL seems definitely PG (apart from the interviews with Jinro) . Just look at how restrained the language was when Artosis ranted about the Zelda vs Starcraft g4tv deathmatch. He was teetering on the edge of dropping a fuck but was able to control himself.
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On May 25 2011 06:15 quancer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
The OP is an example of the audience that esports needs to reach out to in order to achieve the mainstream appeal of conventional sports. Within esport communities there's this awful tendency (perhaps something to do with the young base) to demand broad acceptance without compromise. This sort of thing is simply not realistic, and if we continue to demand that mainstream audiences see the "error in their ways" and embrace SC2, gaming, e-sports, without compromise, the communities will see no growth.
Whether we like it or not, the perception of professionalism and maturity plays a huge role in whether an endeavour is positively or negatively received. While we might reflexively want to argue the absurdity of societal expectations, being the brash young adults we are, we should take a moment to consider where these expectations come from.
In regards to the issue of language: I think people misunderstand the nature of crude language and its usage. While to an extent some of us find it displeasing due to conditioning, crude language also exists to serve the purpose of expressing mild to extreme disrespect. Words like "fuck" and "rape" are not artificial; they exist because we need these words to exist. The presence of these words in a broadcast or communique can indicate colloquiality, casual dirsregard, or even contempt, depending on the frequency used. That is to say, cursing is a tool that we use intuitively. We censor ourselves when we wish to express respect and friendliness, and we swear when we wish to express disrespect, either explicitly to our enemies or ironically to our friends.
With this in mind, we need to accept that a fastidious attitude toward language is something we must embrace as esports continues to grow. We must understand that cursing in large-scale events like GSL and TSL would have very negative consequences, not because society at large is afraid of words like "fuck," but because they take offense to the implications of the word "fuck" in a prestigious and mainstream event.
And when it comes to parents, we should recognize that the desire to teach our children the differences between "good" and "bad" words comes not from, again, and irrational fear of the words, but from the intuitive desire to teach our kids good diplomacy.
PS: The argument that Starcraft is a "mature" game and thus should be exempted from mainstream expectations misses the issue entirely. It's not an issue of values or parenting, it's an issue of professionalism.
Wow, could not have stated it more clearly and professionally.
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"Mom im playing a game where i blow up shit and am constantly thinking about setting all the opponents buildings on fire..."
Sure go ahead son
"Mom im gonna wach a stream where they might swear a lil bit"
Nooooooo!!!
Biased much?
Kids are gonna have to deal with swearing at one point or another..Sad reality of life...You cant shelter them all the time...
And more importantly you can never set guidelines on a caster who is doing it on his freewill....Dont like it?Dont watch
Sure if the caster belongs to some corporation or some such and it is not his channel but the companies' then the company is free to set bars on the language of the caster.Since that is pretty scarce in the gaming scene and most casters work individually they shouldnt be pressured to do something they dont have to...Ofcourse smart casters will realize what their audiences want and if they figure out that the audience doesnt want swearing they obviously will stop..But again this is remote in the E-sports community as most of the viewers are young adults and hence dont give a rats ass about how clean the cast is...Infact most enjoy listening to crude jokes and funny swearing..
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On May 25 2011 05:01 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2011 04:54 maahes wrote:On May 25 2011 04:31 Mordiford wrote:On May 25 2011 04:26 Firesilver wrote:On May 25 2011 04:23 Vardant wrote:On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote:
I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid. Because he's setting his own standards. Can anyone do that? I'm sure the companies will be thrilled to hear about that. You can't obviously rate a MP experience, but if you can't see the logic behind the rating never falling under the SP one, then we have nothing else to talk about. But is he really asking too much? TV and even trailers have warnings about mature themes in a show or even in a small trailer, he is just asking for a similar thing here. People keep raising the point behind the rating, but there really is nothing to talk about with it. Parents have enough sense to decide whether they want their kids to see/hear certain things. If the parents are fine with some features inside of the game such as units dieing, why should that automatically force them to accept mature language on a stream? Every major cast is hovering around the same threshold right now though, the GSL, NASL, TSL, MLG even to an extent are all roughly around PG-13 in terms of the content of their casting, which is age-appropriate in regards to violence already contained in the game. If you're okay with your child seeing the violence in the game but not okay with age-equivalent casting then just auto-assume that these events will have that issue, because they all do. I can't think of one that exceeds that threshold, and I can't think of one that is consistently below it, it varies from day to day but it is always around that same general region, the content will be age-appropriate in regards to the rating of the game. I think the assertion that simulated violence and vulgar diction go together hand in hand is a faulty one. Regardless, the discussion and question posed here is about the feasibility and application of casting-centric labels... to which the relationship between game rating and presentation tone is only tangentially related. ;o I've already said, I'm fine with a label but considering these events are live, I wouldn't want to have to tell the players to behave a different way since the way they currently behave is consistent with what would be a PG-13 rating, which is what the violent content of the game would receive. So, in that sense it's safe to say that every major cast is basically a T: for violence, blood and gore, language and suggestive themes. in the US.
I think the assertion that simulated violence and vulgar diction go together hand in hand is a faulty one.
+ Show Spoiler +When you say something new, I'll say something new.
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EPT
