Mostly yes but alright not the only thing (some exceptional games could still be pretty cool even without any casting) , but I think I'd be bored out of my mind watching SC2 if the casters couldn't talk shit during slow games/downtime and I think the casters should have some freedom and not always having to worry about dropping a bomb. To me Dreamhack Invitational was the best event ever, not because it had more amazing games than other tournaments but simply because of the host. He alone made that event 10000 times more fun to watch than your average *any-tournament* match.
It's a game about intergalactic war and you have a problem with swearing? More proof that as long as "offensive" language and sexual innuendo/situations are present, American parents couldn't care less about violence. Hooray for priorities.
On May 25 2011 04:00 TotalBiscuit wrote: A few things to consider.
1) The ESRB does not rate the online experience of a game. The T rating is irrelevant and applies to the singleplayer component only. Who is to say why? Maybe it's the fact that the single-player deals with crass treachery, genocide, the slaughter of innocent civilians and god knows what else that lead to that rating?
2) To the people claiming his kids shouldn't be watching Starcraft. Are you serious? Please don't tell me you're the same people wanting eSports to grow. Of course kids should be watching sports, ideally, eSports would be a family and friends event just like any real sport. It's some way off, that's for sure, but isn't that the goal?
3) To a lot of people, fantasy make-believe violence is less of a concern than swearing. I can see their point, kids play with toy guns and pretend to kill each other all the time, from the age of toddlers. What is the difference?
1) I highly doubt the multiplayer experience would get a lower rating. The not rated tag would probably be in there for all the people cursing at you after a game they lose in.
2) But where is the cut off point to when kids shouldn't watch two armies killing each other, with units on screen dying, etc?
Which words are completely off the table? What if a caster says, that game was fucking amazing? Is that different than a caster using fuck as two people having sexual intercourse? Personally it is the meaning behind the word that matters. Fuck being used for excitement and positive connotations is totally different from using it sexually or angry fits. (I'm arguing a George Carlin point here)
Another example of how I'm trying to convey the differences:
3) I don't know or have the statistics, but I think saying by saying "alot of people" you mean U.S. media outlets/parents where sexuality and violence is less of a problem than bad words. The problem with words is that people give them so much more meaning than they actually deserve. This has been reinforced for generations in the U.S. and as long as the words are "bad" and scary they will be looked down upon.
I am not saying that fuck, shit, and god damnit every other sentence is needed, but I hate saying these things are all off limits.
In my mind there are different types of casts and they should be expected to maintain different standards of language. Something like SOTG (which the OP referenced) should continue as is, at the end of the day the show started out as a bunch of fans talking about a game they love, they stand by the fact that if you listen then they will offend you at some point That's what the show is and that's what makes it great.
On the other hand you have sponsored shows and tournament casts which should be using cleaner language. If you are relying on a sponsor to make your tournament/show happen then they will most likely hold the caster accountable for the language used, which may or may not affect future sponsorships.
As for specific words, really the only one that makes me cringe every time I hear it is rape. I realise that casting involves a massive amount of adlibbing, but if the tournament casts can be kept clean then there's a good chance that individual casters will get into the habit of not swearing while they are on a cast whether its a tournament cast or a podcast.
I think in this day and age it would be wiser to teach your kids not to use bad language instead of trying to block it out. No matter what they are going to be exposed to it.
On May 25 2011 04:00 TotalBiscuit wrote: A few things to consider.
1) The ESRB does not rate the online experience of a game. The T rating is irrelevant and applies to the singleplayer component only. Who is to say why? Maybe it's the fact that the single-player deals with crass treachery, genocide, the slaughter of innocent civilians and god knows what else that lead to that rating?
2) To the people claiming his kids shouldn't be watching Starcraft. Are you serious? Please don't tell me you're the same people wanting eSports to grow. Of course kids should be watching sports, ideally, eSports would be a family and friends event just like any real sport. It's some way off, that's for sure, but isn't that the goal?
3) To a lot of people, fantasy make-believe violence is less of a concern than swearing. I can see their point, kids play with toy guns and pretend to kill each other all the time, from the age of toddlers. What is the difference?
The violence in Starcraft 2 is pretty different from pretending to kill each other with make believe guns, this is largely a cultural thing in my opinion... But I don't know for sure, it just seems bloody inconsistent.
I was actually surprised the first time I noticed how gory it is when a zealot slices a marine or marauder in half, when a colossus burns a group of marines alive and they writhe in pain as they're melded by the corrosive acid of the roach. The minimum age expectation of the T-rating carries over in terms of violence at the very least, what it comes down to is people who are okay with the violence in the game being seen by their kids, but not okay with the nature of some casts, which are for all major events so far, entirely age equivalent to the violence portrayed on screen.
It's essentially like going into a PG-13 movie, and then voicing a complaint about the nature of the film and it's slightly mature themes outside of the violence. Some people are okay with their kids viewing violence, but rating systems aren't exclusive in this sense, if something contains violence that would generally be considered inappropriate for a younger audience, then it gets rated as such regardless of whether it has crass language or not.
So, could we have a label system that states a cast may contain some mature language, sure, slap it onto every major event, no event so far has exceeded this threshold in my opinion, I can't think of a single one, not the NASL(minus the Cheese Fails thing), TSL, MLG or GSL among numerous others.
The language is generally age equivalent to the content seen on screen in my opinion, I don't see an issue except for in regards to parents who are okay with their kids being exposed to certain mature content, but not to other mature content, in that case, slap on a label, but the game itself will visually still be roughly 12+ in terms of a general guideline, the content of casts so far has matches this expectation.
On May 25 2011 04:00 TotalBiscuit wrote: A few things to consider.
1) It was already pointed out, that the rating includes the graphic violence that is there even in MP, so the rating can't get any lower than that.
2) If I'm a fan of Mixed martial arts. Should I tell my kids to watch that? Is the growth really that important? Are you serious?
3) The difference is, that you can actually see people die in horrible ways as they scream in Starcraft? How can you even ask that question?
You could even use the same argument for movies and TV shows. It's obviously only made-up thing, who would believe that right? Yet, we have ratings for that, ratings, that some parents actually follow...
No-ones saying you should tell your kids to watch anything, you're going way off topic as the OP is just asking for a simple thing as a small icon or warning to viewers about the kind of language being used on the show. I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
When I watch state of the game I understand people will swear, you are listening in on SC2 related banter. When I watch GSL, I would be surprised to hear a peep out of anyone. As much I dislike the OP's attitude to swearing (I swear like its going out of fashion and I like to think I turned out okay.), I understand that there are people that want clean versions, but I'm not sure there is enough demand to have clean versions of SOTG e.g.
On May 25 2011 04:00 TotalBiscuit wrote: A few things to consider.
1) It was already pointed out, that the rating includes the graphic violence that is there even in MP, so the rating can't get any lower than that.
2) If I'm a fan of Mixed martial arts. Should I tell my kids to watch that? Is the growth really that important? Are you serious?
3) The difference is, that you can actually see people die in horrible ways as they scream in Starcraft? How can you even ask that question?
You could even use the same argument for movies and TV shows. It's obviously only made-up thing, who would believe that right? Yet, we have ratings for that, ratings, that some parents actually follow...
No-ones saying you should tell your kids to watch anything, you're going way off topic as the OP is just asking for a simple thing as a small icon or warning to viewers about the kind of language being used on the show. I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
They don't rate that because it's based around player interaction, that doesn't change the base-line content of the game, which they've already rated... The online version still contains all the dismemberment, melting, exploding, incinerating that the offline version contains.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: No-ones saying you should tell your kids to watch anything, you're going way off topic as the OP is just asking for a simple thing as a small icon or warning to viewers about the kind of language being used on the show. I don't see how people can be against such a small change here.
The change is not that small if we are talking about live events. You can't just review it and put a sticker on it, because you have to review it before it occurs. That means, either you use the highest rating available (I believe that's R in the USA) or you tell your casters how to talk. And some people (including myself) don't like the latter.
I'm pretty sure that the majority of casts (or at least the highest level ones) are played with reduced violence enabled, so using the argument that the violence is there so the swearing should be there too doesn't really make all that much sense. I personally don't like to hear swearing in casts and really appreciate casters that can still keep things interesting and entertaining (even in the games that would be less entertaining otherwise) without having to resort to swearing or making sexual jokes and whatnot, which is one reason I really enjoy listening to Tasteless and Artosis. I don't understand how having a "clean" cast makes it more stale to some people; to me THAT shows a lack of maturity.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: No-ones saying you should tell your kids to watch anything, you're going way off topic as the OP is just asking for a simple thing as a small icon or warning to viewers about the kind of language being used on the show. I don't see how people can be against such a small change here.
The change is not that small if we are talking about live events. You can't just review it and put a sticker on it, because you have to review it before it occurs. That means, either you use the highest rating available (I believe that's R in the USA) or you tell your casters how to talk. And some people (including myself) don't like the latter.
Yeah I understand your perspective and I don't think casters should be told how to talk, but with live events it wont really be a change of a cast if in some situations you told the casters to try and refrain from using strong language, sure it happens time to time on air because that's just a general mishap that happens in any event. However, it is not hard to try and keep the language to a minimum during a cast, and the OP is not asking/forcing any sort of all PG-13 action, he would just like to be given a heads-up if there could be some language he would not like his siblings to hear.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
Because he's setting his own standards. Can anyone do that? I'm sure the companies will be thrilled to hear that.
You can't obviously rate the MP experience, but if you can't see the logic behind the rating never falling under the SP one, then we have nothing else to talk about.
So... you don't give your sons access to the internet, either? Only with supervision? I mean we all know what the internet is for (and full of).
I don't think the casts are especially 'mature' or anything. Every rap song on the radio is raunchier than all the SC2 casts I've seen so far. Furthermore, not sure how technically advanced your sons are, but back when I was 12, let's just say my friends and I knew our way around the net.
The 8 year old... not sure, depends on his development, but I doubt he'd pick up anything more disturbing than what can be picked up by listening to aforementioned rap songs. But of course if you really want to try to shelter them from bad words like "shit piss fuck cunt cocksucker motherfucker and tits" (TM), you can always just mute the sound and commentate for the kids.
On May 25 2011 03:56 Jayrod wrote: At first I was thinking this is a difficult forum for this discussion because, in general, even the younger players who play starcraft 2 write pretty well (see Pokebunny). I was thinking it would be hard to get a feel for what perspective people were posting their opinion from...
What I learned from this thread actually has real applications. This thread makes it clear that maturity and empathy have a positive correlation. Thanks.
I think it's more what YOU deem maturity would be all the people who agree with you and have the same point of view, whether or not that view is correct, and, therefore, are more like to have empathy for your situation, because they agree with you.
How can you even argue the point that it being aware of your general impact on others signifies a level a maturity? I wasn't arguing an opinion at all... I was making a statement of fact that this thread brought to light. I am unenthusiastic about the subject, but I tend to agree that the idea should be to appeal to the largest body of people and that having less cursing would probably work towards that.
I never once said or assumed im more mature than the next person, only made an observation that more mature viewpoints tend to be able to put themselves in the shoes of the opposing side.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: No-ones saying you should tell your kids to watch anything, you're going way off topic as the OP is just asking for a simple thing as a small icon or warning to viewers about the kind of language being used on the show. I don't see how people can be against such a small change here.
The change is not that small if we are talking about live events. You can't just review it and put a sticker on it, because you have to review it before it occurs. That means, either you use the highest rating available (I believe that's R in the USA) or you tell your casters how to talk. And some people (including myself) don't like the latter.
Yeah I understand your perspective and I don't think casters should be told how to talk, but with live events it wont really be a change of a cast if in some situations you told the casters to try and refrain from using strong language, sure it happens time to time on air because that's just a general mishap that happens in any event. However, it is not hard to try and keep the language to a minimum during a cast, and the OP is not asking/forcing any sort of all PG-13 action, he would just like to be given a heads-up if there could be some language he would not like his siblings to hear.
The thing is, currently I can't think if a single major cast(or any event) where the PG-13 threshold has been exceeded, so that pretty much seems like the standard for all casts. The violence you're seeing matches that age suggestion, and the content of the casts is age appropriate.
Even F-Bombs are so few and far between(generally like 1-2 per cast if ever) that it still falls under the general PG-13 expectation.
On May 25 2011 04:16 Firesilver wrote: I don't see how people can be against such a small change here. The rating is; as TotalBuscuit stated; T but that only applies to the single player aspect of the game. ESRB does not rate the online version of the game, so that argument is invalid.
Because he's setting his own standards. Can anyone do that? I'm sure the companies will be thrilled to hear about that.
You can't obviously rate a MP experience, but if you can't see the logic behind the rating never falling under the SP one, then we have nothing else to talk about.
But is he really asking too much? TV and even trailers have warnings about mature themes in a show or even in a small trailer, he is just asking for a similar thing here.
People keep raising the point behind the rating, but there really is nothing to talk about with it. Parents have enough sense to decide whether they want their kids to see/hear certain things. If the parents are fine with some features inside of the game such as units dieing, why should that automatically force them to accept mature language on a stream?
I don't believe you can learn some bad language from casters, most kids pick up on way worse phrases in schools and from their friends. The obsession with "fuck" is a bit silly IMO
On May 25 2011 02:16 k!llua wrote: And someone should ban the idiot that suggested the OP simply stop watching the game with his children. That's really going to help things move forward, hey?
Let's start playing Call of Duty with children, that will surely help...because the game seriously need more acceptance and this will get things moving.
Think before you post.
He's not playing Call of Duty, he (and his children) are playing Starcraft 2. Don't bring in examples that have nothing to do with the current discussion.
There's nothing wrong with promoting eSports at an early age; it's not the acceptance that needs building, but the groundswell of support for the strength of the GSL/team leagues to grow into something like the OSL/MSL so we can continue to enjoy competitive gaming at a top level for years to come.
EPT
That's what the show is and that's what makes it great.
