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The main reason for this whole drama is because Destinee's stream view is down
Ergo:
Destinee cannot maintain a high streaming income without running more ads even though he sold out by switching provider to get more money.
Thus:
All the Destinee lovers and trolls should actively have his stream up 24/7 even when he is playing random games or LOL
In turn:
Destinee will be happy with his income and he will not have the free time nor bother to stir so much shit in SCreddit or TL.
Please guys. Support your idol more. He needs your views. You don't want to trouble him with coming up with unique ways to rekindle his viewership every few weeks (seemingly the frequency has increased nowadays). Destinee needs you! Watch his stream today!
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Northern Ireland23772 Posts
On October 24 2012 13:10 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:07 MVega wrote:On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:54 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:
[quote]
im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful. Once again, twitch's numbers are up. He said nothing about SC2's numbers. Just because IdrA's numbers, as an example, are down it doesn't mean that SC2's numbers are way down. IdrA is just less relevant than he was back when WoL first came out. Back then he was consider a major player in the western esports scene, I watched him all the time but I haven't watched him in ages since he doesn't do anything innovative and he's not relevant in the scene, and he's not a particularly entertaining streamer. More SC2 streamers = more divided audience. If Stephano and IdrA are streaming at the same time I can't pay attention to both so I only watch one or the other, the more popular player or the player with the best stream between the two is going to have the most viewers and since there is viewer overlap that's going to result in a dip for one of those two streamers. That's just one example, now multiply that by a bit and you can see what happened. Back when I started watching SC2 streams I didn't have that many options for the kind of stream that I enjoy, but RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT there are SEVEN StarCraft 2 streamers that I like streaming, FOUR street fighter 4 streamers, and SIX people streaming various other games with entertaining streams. Those are just the streams that I'm subscribed to. Obviously I can't watch all of those at one time. Also remember the Korean player Rainbow? When he first started streaming he had so many viewers, but a few months after he stopped being relevant he was lucky if he had 100. That's just the nature of spectators. They're fickle. If Stephano were to stop being competitive I'd stop watching him, because while I like him I only watch his stream because he's relevant in the game. Worst case scenario is that the number of SC2 viewers has stagnated, as in the viewer #s aren't growing, and they're spread out across more streams than ever. There has been nothing at all to indicate that numbers for SC2 have taken a nose dive. At all. Your timeframe is jsut off. You think back like two years. Try and think back 12-15 months when Sc2 peaked. Back then there were roughly same amount of tournamnets, same amount of streamers (perhaps even more), and everyone had much higer stream numbers (not just idra, basically everyone).
Perhaps right on the streams, there are far far more tournaments around the place, at least instinctively based on my recollection of a year ago.
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Your timeframe is jsut off. You think back like two years. Try and think back 12-15 months when Sc2 peaked. Back then there were roughly same amount of tournamnets, same amount of streamers (perhaps even more), and everyone had much higer stream numbers (not just idra, basically everyone).
i'd like to have some specific numbers from you, because i believe you are just making things up. i mean, same amount of streamers or more back then? thats just blatantly wrong and you know it 
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On October 24 2012 13:10 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:07 MVega wrote:On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:54 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:
[quote]
im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful. Once again, twitch's numbers are up. He said nothing about SC2's numbers. Just because IdrA's numbers, as an example, are down it doesn't mean that SC2's numbers are way down. IdrA is just less relevant than he was back when WoL first came out. Back then he was consider a major player in the western esports scene, I watched him all the time but I haven't watched him in ages since he doesn't do anything innovative and he's not relevant in the scene, and he's not a particularly entertaining streamer. More SC2 streamers = more divided audience. If Stephano and IdrA are streaming at the same time I can't pay attention to both so I only watch one or the other, the more popular player or the player with the best stream between the two is going to have the most viewers and since there is viewer overlap that's going to result in a dip for one of those two streamers. That's just one example, now multiply that by a bit and you can see what happened. Back when I started watching SC2 streams I didn't have that many options for the kind of stream that I enjoy, but RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT there are SEVEN StarCraft 2 streamers that I like streaming, FOUR street fighter 4 streamers, and SIX people streaming various other games with entertaining streams. Those are just the streams that I'm subscribed to. Obviously I can't watch all of those at one time. Also remember the Korean player Rainbow? When he first started streaming he had so many viewers, but a few months after he stopped being relevant he was lucky if he had 100. That's just the nature of spectators. They're fickle. If Stephano were to stop being competitive I'd stop watching him, because while I like him I only watch his stream because he's relevant in the game. Worst case scenario is that the number of SC2 viewers has stagnated, as in the viewer #s aren't growing, and they're spread out across more streams than ever. There has been nothing at all to indicate that numbers for SC2 have taken a nose dive. At all. Your timeframe is jsut off. You think back like two years. Try and think back 12-15 months when Sc2 peaked. Back then there were roughly same amount of tournamnets, same amount of streamers (perhaps even more), and everyone had much higer stream numbers (not just idra, basically everyone).
Last year we did not have kespa, we did not have the world championships, both mlg and dh are running MORE events per year this year than they did last year. We definitely have more content. Not to mention that this is also during the transition from one expansion to the next, which is a period where there should be a natural declining trend followed by a rising trend with the new expansion.
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Is there video of the latest episode up yet?
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I am sad that I missed the most recent episode, it sounds hilarious.
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On October 24 2012 13:11 matiK23 wrote:
I didn't like the analogy because imo it went againt Wheat's points. Even if American Idol is the shittier show, it brings (brought* since American Idol is basically dead and scrapping for viewers: see Mariah Carey vs Nikki Minaj "drama") more viewership and more money which is what Riot is doing. So I don't get it? Congrats SC2, you're Breaking Bad, but you get less viewers than American Idol, which is one of the points of Destiny's thesis?
uh, the point is that the iTG crew have no problem with that existence because LoL is naturally attractive to the casual masses. this is one of those points that nobody disagreed with destiny on prior to the "debate", but were trying to downplay the absolute importance that SC2 is the nurturing sun that all of e-sports revolves around. it's not a question of scene dominance or sc2 vs. lol, (because, frankly, we've already lost), it's a question of scene growth that isn't dependent on a distant developer or setting ourselves up the impossible standard of competing with the game that (with all respect) is a million times more inviting to any skill level or history with gaming. it's futile, and destiny needs to come to grips with the tangible differences between genres, the audience for them and the possibility of co-existence between the two. namely, the false dilemma of sponsors up and deserting SC2 on a whim/within a miniscule timeframe is fucking laughable.
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On October 24 2012 13:13 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:10 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 13:07 MVega wrote:On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:54 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:
[quote]
he even had over 20k at some points.
Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful. Once again, twitch's numbers are up. He said nothing about SC2's numbers. Just because IdrA's numbers, as an example, are down it doesn't mean that SC2's numbers are way down. IdrA is just less relevant than he was back when WoL first came out. Back then he was consider a major player in the western esports scene, I watched him all the time but I haven't watched him in ages since he doesn't do anything innovative and he's not relevant in the scene, and he's not a particularly entertaining streamer. More SC2 streamers = more divided audience. If Stephano and IdrA are streaming at the same time I can't pay attention to both so I only watch one or the other, the more popular player or the player with the best stream between the two is going to have the most viewers and since there is viewer overlap that's going to result in a dip for one of those two streamers. That's just one example, now multiply that by a bit and you can see what happened. Back when I started watching SC2 streams I didn't have that many options for the kind of stream that I enjoy, but RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT there are SEVEN StarCraft 2 streamers that I like streaming, FOUR street fighter 4 streamers, and SIX people streaming various other games with entertaining streams. Those are just the streams that I'm subscribed to. Obviously I can't watch all of those at one time. Also remember the Korean player Rainbow? When he first started streaming he had so many viewers, but a few months after he stopped being relevant he was lucky if he had 100. That's just the nature of spectators. They're fickle. If Stephano were to stop being competitive I'd stop watching him, because while I like him I only watch his stream because he's relevant in the game. Worst case scenario is that the number of SC2 viewers has stagnated, as in the viewer #s aren't growing, and they're spread out across more streams than ever. There has been nothing at all to indicate that numbers for SC2 have taken a nose dive. At all. Your timeframe is jsut off. You think back like two years. Try and think back 12-15 months when Sc2 peaked. Back then there were roughly same amount of tournamnets, same amount of streamers (perhaps even more), and everyone had much higer stream numbers (not just idra, basically everyone). Perhaps right on the streams, there are far far more tournaments around the place, at least instinctively based on my recollection of a year ago.
Which tournmanent is here today that was not here one year ago and averages over 500 streamers?
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On October 24 2012 13:22 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 24 2012 13:10 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 13:07 MVega wrote:On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:54 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful. Once again, twitch's numbers are up. He said nothing about SC2's numbers. Just because IdrA's numbers, as an example, are down it doesn't mean that SC2's numbers are way down. IdrA is just less relevant than he was back when WoL first came out. Back then he was consider a major player in the western esports scene, I watched him all the time but I haven't watched him in ages since he doesn't do anything innovative and he's not relevant in the scene, and he's not a particularly entertaining streamer. More SC2 streamers = more divided audience. If Stephano and IdrA are streaming at the same time I can't pay attention to both so I only watch one or the other, the more popular player or the player with the best stream between the two is going to have the most viewers and since there is viewer overlap that's going to result in a dip for one of those two streamers. That's just one example, now multiply that by a bit and you can see what happened. Back when I started watching SC2 streams I didn't have that many options for the kind of stream that I enjoy, but RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT there are SEVEN StarCraft 2 streamers that I like streaming, FOUR street fighter 4 streamers, and SIX people streaming various other games with entertaining streams. Those are just the streams that I'm subscribed to. Obviously I can't watch all of those at one time. Also remember the Korean player Rainbow? When he first started streaming he had so many viewers, but a few months after he stopped being relevant he was lucky if he had 100. That's just the nature of spectators. They're fickle. If Stephano were to stop being competitive I'd stop watching him, because while I like him I only watch his stream because he's relevant in the game. Worst case scenario is that the number of SC2 viewers has stagnated, as in the viewer #s aren't growing, and they're spread out across more streams than ever. There has been nothing at all to indicate that numbers for SC2 have taken a nose dive. At all. Your timeframe is jsut off. You think back like two years. Try and think back 12-15 months when Sc2 peaked. Back then there were roughly same amount of tournamnets, same amount of streamers (perhaps even more), and everyone had much higer stream numbers (not just idra, basically everyone). Perhaps right on the streams, there are far far more tournaments around the place, at least instinctively based on my recollection of a year ago. Which tournmanent is here today that was not here one year ago and averages over 500 streamers?
Well there is all of WCS. MLG has more tournaments with the Arena's. DH has more events. There are more Asus events. The GD studio tournaments. OSL. LoneStar Clash.
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On October 24 2012 13:15 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:10 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 13:07 MVega wrote:On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:54 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:
[quote]
he even had over 20k at some points.
Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful. Once again, twitch's numbers are up. He said nothing about SC2's numbers. Just because IdrA's numbers, as an example, are down it doesn't mean that SC2's numbers are way down. IdrA is just less relevant than he was back when WoL first came out. Back then he was consider a major player in the western esports scene, I watched him all the time but I haven't watched him in ages since he doesn't do anything innovative and he's not relevant in the scene, and he's not a particularly entertaining streamer. More SC2 streamers = more divided audience. If Stephano and IdrA are streaming at the same time I can't pay attention to both so I only watch one or the other, the more popular player or the player with the best stream between the two is going to have the most viewers and since there is viewer overlap that's going to result in a dip for one of those two streamers. That's just one example, now multiply that by a bit and you can see what happened. Back when I started watching SC2 streams I didn't have that many options for the kind of stream that I enjoy, but RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT there are SEVEN StarCraft 2 streamers that I like streaming, FOUR street fighter 4 streamers, and SIX people streaming various other games with entertaining streams. Those are just the streams that I'm subscribed to. Obviously I can't watch all of those at one time. Also remember the Korean player Rainbow? When he first started streaming he had so many viewers, but a few months after he stopped being relevant he was lucky if he had 100. That's just the nature of spectators. They're fickle. If Stephano were to stop being competitive I'd stop watching him, because while I like him I only watch his stream because he's relevant in the game. Worst case scenario is that the number of SC2 viewers has stagnated, as in the viewer #s aren't growing, and they're spread out across more streams than ever. There has been nothing at all to indicate that numbers for SC2 have taken a nose dive. At all. Your timeframe is jsut off. You think back like two years. Try and think back 12-15 months when Sc2 peaked. Back then there were roughly same amount of tournamnets, same amount of streamers (perhaps even more), and everyone had much higer stream numbers (not just idra, basically everyone). Last year we did not have kespa, we did not have the world championships, both mlg and dh are running MORE events per year this year than they did last year. We definitely have more content. Not to mention that this is also during the transition from one expansion to the next, which is a period where there should be a natural declining trend followed by a rising trend with the new expansion.
Yes there is a natural decline, as there is in the life of any product life circle. Sc2 was in the mature phase 1 year ago. It's declined over the last 6-7 months. MLG has a few pay-per views, not changing anything signifcantly.
Hots will be released an extend the product phase, but it's no savior.
OSL should hurt GSL views (which have not been dicussed so far) as they are primary compettors and runs on the same time, hence OSL is slightly irrelvant to this debate. DH running a few more events, but despite that their average viewers are so much down. From roughly 80-100+k to an average of 50-60k at the final day. It's very possible that their total viewerships are down despite more tournaments.
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On October 24 2012 13:12 lazyitachi wrote:
The main reason for this whole drama is because Destinee's stream view is down
Ergo:
Destinee cannot maintain a high streaming income without running more ads even though he sold out by switching provider to get more money.
Thus:
All the Destinee lovers and trolls should actively have his stream up 24/7 even when he is playing random games or LOL
In turn:
Destinee will be happy with his income and he will not have the free time nor bother to stir so much shit in SCreddit or TL.
Please guys. Support your idol more. He needs your views. You don't want to trouble him with coming up with unique ways to rekindle his viewership every few weeks (seemingly the frequency has increased nowadays). Destinee needs you! Watch his stream today!
Who is this kid even talking to? Nobody is dickriding Destiny here. You might want to post this in reddit.
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On October 24 2012 13:22 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 24 2012 13:10 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 13:07 MVega wrote:On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:54 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful. Once again, twitch's numbers are up. He said nothing about SC2's numbers. Just because IdrA's numbers, as an example, are down it doesn't mean that SC2's numbers are way down. IdrA is just less relevant than he was back when WoL first came out. Back then he was consider a major player in the western esports scene, I watched him all the time but I haven't watched him in ages since he doesn't do anything innovative and he's not relevant in the scene, and he's not a particularly entertaining streamer. More SC2 streamers = more divided audience. If Stephano and IdrA are streaming at the same time I can't pay attention to both so I only watch one or the other, the more popular player or the player with the best stream between the two is going to have the most viewers and since there is viewer overlap that's going to result in a dip for one of those two streamers. That's just one example, now multiply that by a bit and you can see what happened. Back when I started watching SC2 streams I didn't have that many options for the kind of stream that I enjoy, but RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT there are SEVEN StarCraft 2 streamers that I like streaming, FOUR street fighter 4 streamers, and SIX people streaming various other games with entertaining streams. Those are just the streams that I'm subscribed to. Obviously I can't watch all of those at one time. Also remember the Korean player Rainbow? When he first started streaming he had so many viewers, but a few months after he stopped being relevant he was lucky if he had 100. That's just the nature of spectators. They're fickle. If Stephano were to stop being competitive I'd stop watching him, because while I like him I only watch his stream because he's relevant in the game. Worst case scenario is that the number of SC2 viewers has stagnated, as in the viewer #s aren't growing, and they're spread out across more streams than ever. There has been nothing at all to indicate that numbers for SC2 have taken a nose dive. At all. Your timeframe is jsut off. You think back like two years. Try and think back 12-15 months when Sc2 peaked. Back then there were roughly same amount of tournamnets, same amount of streamers (perhaps even more), and everyone had much higer stream numbers (not just idra, basically everyone). Perhaps right on the streams, there are far far more tournaments around the place, at least instinctively based on my recollection of a year ago. Which tournmanent is here today that was not here one year ago and averages over 500 streamers?
MLG Arena, IPL FC, IPL TAC/IPTL, MvP Invitational, OSL, Proleague, Lone Star Clash, Red Bull Battlegrounds/offshoots, GIGABYTE LAN... want me to keep going?
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On October 24 2012 13:26 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:22 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 13:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 24 2012 13:10 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 13:07 MVega wrote:On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:54 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:
[quote]
not in beta, last year.
I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful. Once again, twitch's numbers are up. He said nothing about SC2's numbers. Just because IdrA's numbers, as an example, are down it doesn't mean that SC2's numbers are way down. IdrA is just less relevant than he was back when WoL first came out. Back then he was consider a major player in the western esports scene, I watched him all the time but I haven't watched him in ages since he doesn't do anything innovative and he's not relevant in the scene, and he's not a particularly entertaining streamer. More SC2 streamers = more divided audience. If Stephano and IdrA are streaming at the same time I can't pay attention to both so I only watch one or the other, the more popular player or the player with the best stream between the two is going to have the most viewers and since there is viewer overlap that's going to result in a dip for one of those two streamers. That's just one example, now multiply that by a bit and you can see what happened. Back when I started watching SC2 streams I didn't have that many options for the kind of stream that I enjoy, but RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT there are SEVEN StarCraft 2 streamers that I like streaming, FOUR street fighter 4 streamers, and SIX people streaming various other games with entertaining streams. Those are just the streams that I'm subscribed to. Obviously I can't watch all of those at one time. Also remember the Korean player Rainbow? When he first started streaming he had so many viewers, but a few months after he stopped being relevant he was lucky if he had 100. That's just the nature of spectators. They're fickle. If Stephano were to stop being competitive I'd stop watching him, because while I like him I only watch his stream because he's relevant in the game. Worst case scenario is that the number of SC2 viewers has stagnated, as in the viewer #s aren't growing, and they're spread out across more streams than ever. There has been nothing at all to indicate that numbers for SC2 have taken a nose dive. At all. Your timeframe is jsut off. You think back like two years. Try and think back 12-15 months when Sc2 peaked. Back then there were roughly same amount of tournamnets, same amount of streamers (perhaps even more), and everyone had much higer stream numbers (not just idra, basically everyone). Perhaps right on the streams, there are far far more tournaments around the place, at least instinctively based on my recollection of a year ago. Which tournmanent is here today that was not here one year ago and averages over 500 streamers? Well there is all of WCS. MLG has more tournaments with the Arena's. DH has more events. There are more Asus events. The GD studio tournaments. OSL. LoneStar Clash.
Yet despite that, OSL roughly averages the same numbers as korean weekly (an online tournament) did 1 year ago (which is now dead I guess). MLG arena btw nearly a year old. Too some extent NASL viewers has shipped to MLG arena. But the main difference (perhaps) isn't measured in temrs of total tournament streams, but rather in terms of player streams. Stream viewerships are hopelessly down for almost every player.
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On October 24 2012 13:27 matiK23 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:12 lazyitachi wrote:
The main reason for this whole drama is because Destinee's stream view is down
Ergo:
Destinee cannot maintain a high streaming income without running more ads even though he sold out by switching provider to get more money.
Thus:
All the Destinee lovers and trolls should actively have his stream up 24/7 even when he is playing random games or LOL
In turn:
Destinee will be happy with his income and he will not have the free time nor bother to stir so much shit in SCreddit or TL.
Please guys. Support your idol more. He needs your views. You don't want to trouble him with coming up with unique ways to rekindle his viewership every few weeks (seemingly the frequency has increased nowadays). Destinee needs you! Watch his stream today! Who is this kid even talking to? Nobody is dickriding Destiny here. You might want to post this in reddit.
He didnt even spell Destiny correctly... and its not even like its Steven's own original way of spelling the word... its the same as it appears in the dictionary.... and even if you arent a native english speaker... if you read any of the thread or know anything about SC2 you know its spelled Destiny...
why read past that? lol.
And also, its not JUST Idra's stream numbers that are down... go to ANY stream that you frequented 6-10 months ago... all are down. But whatever i understand that this hurts people's delusional idea that SC2 is the center of Esports, and that it will one day be mainstream. We were never EVER even close, and the scene is already stagnating and -some would argue- dying.
Again, I never gave 2 shits about my hobby being mainstream, in fact it got REALLY obnoxious when people started killing everything i liked about it... in their attempts to be mainstream... but to some people loving and enjoying something isnt enough.... if other people dont appreciate it or understand....
Never understood why the scene decided it should be mainstream and loved by everyone... Well i do understand... more viewers... more money for the people who are living off of the game.
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On October 24 2012 13:01 matiK23 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:48 TrippSC2 wrote:On October 24 2012 12:35 matiK23 wrote:On October 24 2012 11:58 TrippSC2 wrote:
I really used to like Destiny, because he could actually make a sound, convincing argument that was well reasoned, but I haven't seen that side of him in a really long time.
The point that Idra and Incontrol were making seems pretty clean cut and I really didn't hear anything sound to refute it. He just kept saying "Blizzard is bad" over and over. I'm sure he was pissed off about the "go play LoL"-type response, but honestly that's the only thing of substance that he brought to the table was "Blizzard is shit, look at LoL." I didn't think the way Idra phrased his comment was out-of-line at all. Destiny was having a love fest over LoL and he said what anyone watching that was thinking (and I've been thinking for several months). Why doesn't Destiny just switch to LoL since he's more passionate about it?
I hate to say it, but it really feels like all of this seems to be motivated by stream views for Destiny... I don't know about anyone else, but he doesn't entertain me like he used to and his level of play isn't top caliber, so there really isn't anything to draw me to his stream. Seeing as how he makes ALL of his money from streaming (since he doesn't have any winnings and no team sponsorship), I'm damn sure that he's looking for anything that can possibly get his name out there to generate more views for him. So this was all a ploy so 2000 people can just watch Destiny sit in his chair? Cmon man. Destiny gets* 1.3-5k viewers a night, I'm pretty sure he's not that desperate for an extra 500. My point is that the reasons to watch Destiny stream are drying up. He isn't nearly as funny as he used to be and his game play isn't at a level that it alone would have me watch him play. The only thing left is drama. I framed this in terms of risk/reward for the community, but for Destiny, any publicity is good publicity and there is essentially no risk. He's not going to be signed by a team (nor does he seem to want to, but that may change) and controversy will only get more views. So, yes, I can totally see it being plausible for him to only be doing this primarily for more stream views, with the off-possibility of improving his stream views long-term from his campaign actually working. The "nigger gook faggot" incident has always been him, and it's not like he asked his opponent to post a reddit thread about him so SRS can contact his sponsors so he can get dropped by not only a tournament as a caster and as a team member by his own best friend with the dicture incident, which he also had no control over the girl's actions of posting his dick. Destiny made a post about the downfall of SC2 that made people think, even which Nazgul said he was glad something like this was posted. So why wouldn't Destiny come on to the call and defend his points, albeit immature, childish, and thus weakening his thesis. Destiny is a smart guy. I'm sure he knows his stream viewers are down. His viewership imo was high because of his trolling and bm. I'm sure he is self aware that he does BM or troll as much, and leads me to believe that he is sitting comfortable financially. Otherwise why would you stop doing what you do best as an entertainer?
I'm not sure how detailing his past team troubles really applies to what we are talking about. The team door is likely shut for good for him, because of the incidents you mentioned above.
This actually makes it all the more likely that he seeks out more controversial means of exposure, because there are literally no negative consequences that can happen. He's already not going to be on a team or sponsored by any major organizations, so if he creates controversy and generates viewership because of it, he only stands to gain from it.
On a side note, the "it's not his fault" defense doesn't hold water with me. The fact is that when you are a public figure and you represent an organization you have to behave in a manner that represents them positively or else you are taking a risk. He took that risk and got burned. Sure there were others involved, but he ultimately put himself in a position to allow those people the opportunity to hurt him professionally.
Nazgul agreed with the points that he brought up, which are universally accepted and legitimate. Hell, I agree that the b.net UI needs work! Where the debate lies is whether putting a "We're doomed if Blizzard doesn't help us!!" post is the correct way to address it. Hyperbole and inciting the masses may work, but it has the risk of being equally bad. It can be framed in a much better way that doesn't alienate others and still gets the point across and even encourages others to push it intelligently. I know that personally I browse TL and reddit often, but I stayed away for the past few days simply because I was sick of the negativity and idiocy on display.
Let's assume that he is actually passionate about the casual experience and was only looking to defend his view point. If this is a passionate position that he has and feels like he is doing the right thing, why did he have nothing to bring to the table that hadn't been said already? He's a smart guy, as you said. You would think that he would have something intelligent to add that wasn't already brought to the forefront.
I will concede that it is very possible that Destiny is in fine financial standings. I don't know him personally and won't pretend to know anything about that. I think it is equally likely, that he has simply run out of things to do for attention. The days of "Kyle, It's a retard magnet!" have been over for a long time and I'm sure his stream numbers are much lower since he made the decision to quit his job and play SC2 full-time.
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On October 24 2012 13:33 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:22 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 13:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 24 2012 13:10 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 13:07 MVega wrote:On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:54 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:
[quote]
not in beta, last year.
I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful. Once again, twitch's numbers are up. He said nothing about SC2's numbers. Just because IdrA's numbers, as an example, are down it doesn't mean that SC2's numbers are way down. IdrA is just less relevant than he was back when WoL first came out. Back then he was consider a major player in the western esports scene, I watched him all the time but I haven't watched him in ages since he doesn't do anything innovative and he's not relevant in the scene, and he's not a particularly entertaining streamer. More SC2 streamers = more divided audience. If Stephano and IdrA are streaming at the same time I can't pay attention to both so I only watch one or the other, the more popular player or the player with the best stream between the two is going to have the most viewers and since there is viewer overlap that's going to result in a dip for one of those two streamers. That's just one example, now multiply that by a bit and you can see what happened. Back when I started watching SC2 streams I didn't have that many options for the kind of stream that I enjoy, but RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT there are SEVEN StarCraft 2 streamers that I like streaming, FOUR street fighter 4 streamers, and SIX people streaming various other games with entertaining streams. Those are just the streams that I'm subscribed to. Obviously I can't watch all of those at one time. Also remember the Korean player Rainbow? When he first started streaming he had so many viewers, but a few months after he stopped being relevant he was lucky if he had 100. That's just the nature of spectators. They're fickle. If Stephano were to stop being competitive I'd stop watching him, because while I like him I only watch his stream because he's relevant in the game. Worst case scenario is that the number of SC2 viewers has stagnated, as in the viewer #s aren't growing, and they're spread out across more streams than ever. There has been nothing at all to indicate that numbers for SC2 have taken a nose dive. At all. Your timeframe is jsut off. You think back like two years. Try and think back 12-15 months when Sc2 peaked. Back then there were roughly same amount of tournamnets, same amount of streamers (perhaps even more), and everyone had much higer stream numbers (not just idra, basically everyone). Perhaps right on the streams, there are far far more tournaments around the place, at least instinctively based on my recollection of a year ago. Which tournmanent is here today that was not here one year ago and averages over 500 streamers? MLG Arena, IPL FC, IPL TAC/IPTL, MvP Invitational, OSL, Proleague, Lone Star Clash, Red Bull Battlegrounds/offshoots, GIGABYTE LAN... want me to keep going?
IPL?
But the problem is that most of the myou mention is just one-time tournaments. No regular weekley occurances (ilke once a week which is what i thought of). Also you ignore previously abandoned tournaments in your list- If you look at the "on-air" tournament list the number of tournaments are roughly the same as year ago, with the main difference being OSL as a competitor to GSL.
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On October 24 2012 13:34 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:26 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 24 2012 13:22 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 13:13 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 24 2012 13:10 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 13:07 MVega wrote:On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:54 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:
[quote]
I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite.
The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful. Once again, twitch's numbers are up. He said nothing about SC2's numbers. Just because IdrA's numbers, as an example, are down it doesn't mean that SC2's numbers are way down. IdrA is just less relevant than he was back when WoL first came out. Back then he was consider a major player in the western esports scene, I watched him all the time but I haven't watched him in ages since he doesn't do anything innovative and he's not relevant in the scene, and he's not a particularly entertaining streamer. More SC2 streamers = more divided audience. If Stephano and IdrA are streaming at the same time I can't pay attention to both so I only watch one or the other, the more popular player or the player with the best stream between the two is going to have the most viewers and since there is viewer overlap that's going to result in a dip for one of those two streamers. That's just one example, now multiply that by a bit and you can see what happened. Back when I started watching SC2 streams I didn't have that many options for the kind of stream that I enjoy, but RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT there are SEVEN StarCraft 2 streamers that I like streaming, FOUR street fighter 4 streamers, and SIX people streaming various other games with entertaining streams. Those are just the streams that I'm subscribed to. Obviously I can't watch all of those at one time. Also remember the Korean player Rainbow? When he first started streaming he had so many viewers, but a few months after he stopped being relevant he was lucky if he had 100. That's just the nature of spectators. They're fickle. If Stephano were to stop being competitive I'd stop watching him, because while I like him I only watch his stream because he's relevant in the game. Worst case scenario is that the number of SC2 viewers has stagnated, as in the viewer #s aren't growing, and they're spread out across more streams than ever. There has been nothing at all to indicate that numbers for SC2 have taken a nose dive. At all. Your timeframe is jsut off. You think back like two years. Try and think back 12-15 months when Sc2 peaked. Back then there were roughly same amount of tournamnets, same amount of streamers (perhaps even more), and everyone had much higer stream numbers (not just idra, basically everyone). Perhaps right on the streams, there are far far more tournaments around the place, at least instinctively based on my recollection of a year ago. Which tournmanent is here today that was not here one year ago and averages over 500 streamers? Well there is all of WCS. MLG has more tournaments with the Arena's. DH has more events. There are more Asus events. The GD studio tournaments. OSL. LoneStar Clash. Yet despite that, OSL roughly averages the same numbers as korean weekly (an online tournament) did 1 year ago (which is now dead I guess). MLG arena btw nearly a year old. Too some extent NASL viewers has shipped to MLG arena. But the main difference (perhaps) isn't measured in temrs of total tournament streams, but rather in terms of player streams. Stream viewerships are hopelessly down for almost every player.
How can you compare Korean Weekly to OSL? One of them ran at primetime for NA, the other is on Korean time, which sucks for everyone that has a job or school. MLG Arena is like half a year old (8 months).
I can understand the argument about player stream numbers being down, but frankly, a lot of that has to do with the fact that there's nearly always a tournament on, and unless one of your favorite players is streaming, most people are gonna watch a casted tournament rather than someone laddering. Sure, if there's nothing else to watch and you want something, you'll watch a stream, but now there's ALWAYS something else to watch.
IPL?
But the problem is that most of the myou mention is just one-time tournaments. No regular weekley occurances (ilke once a week which is what i thought of). Also you ignore previously abandoned tournaments in your list- If you look at the "on-air" tournament list the number of tournaments are roughly the same as year ago, with the main difference being OSL as a competitor to GSL.
IPL FC, which is weekly, and IPL TAC/IPTL, which are basically nightly (with constant rebroadcasts too).
Anyway, I don't really feel like arguing this point with you. Look at Liquipedia in 2011, there's a major event once every three weeks to a month, with a few crowded in together during the major tournament seasons (like November). Now, we have something "big" every other week or so, and four leagues running almost-nightly content... last year, there was just Korean Weekly, NASL, and EG MCSL.
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On October 24 2012 13:36 TrippSC2 wrote:
He's a smart guy, as you said. You would think that he would have something intelligent to add that wasn't already brought to the forefront.
it seemed pretty clear the only reason he was there was his ego tied up in his previous rhetoric being shot down, not that he had anything new to contribute or any interest in considering other positions. I was going to post and say it made destiny look worse, but that's not possible so the real casualties were incontrol/idra/djwheat for being so obviously in the right and squandering it with douchebaggery and YELLING. is wheat like that in most broadcasts?
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EPT
