|
On October 24 2012 12:42 Exarl25 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:38 matiK23 wrote:On October 24 2012 12:34 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 24 2012 12:27 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:23 Fluid wrote:On October 24 2012 12:14 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:06 joogai wrote:
If I act as immature as Dj Wheat when I'm that old, I hope someone puts me down. Wheat acted like a jackass. Idra made a cheap shot at destiny telling him to quit and go play LoL and then incontrol came over to high five him on camera just to egg destiny on even further. Wheat says nothing. Then destiny responds by making an immature cheap shot at idra and incontrol. Oh, so now wheat cares. Now he yells about it. Between that, the completely moronic breaking bad analogy, and telling us stream numbers are rising without saying anything about SC2's stream numbers, which was the focus of the conversation, not overall numbers, wheat had an incredibly poor showing. You can't let Idra and Incontrol make cheap shots and then get mad when your guest gets frustrated and makes a cheap shot back. Wheat is friends with sirScoots from EG, so he tends to side with the EG guys in debates (or just not say anything if they say something stupid). Yeah, that scream at the end was really annoying, but Wheat does immature stuff like that. You'd hear a scream like that every now and then, when a caller "pisses him off" (aka says something that most people in a forum would scoff at easily). Usually the people wheat rags on somewhat deserve it, even if he does overplay the screaming part. This time I don't know how any sane person couldn't see the blatant bias in wheat letting a cheap shot at destiny go by without a peep, then not a minute later throwing a hissy fit about destiny's cheap shot. Clearly wheat is way too comfy with his panel to be objective enough to have guests with differing opinions on, he should probably avoid that kind of situation in the future if he doesnt want to look foolish again. the reason that djWHEAT went off on Destiny for the cheap shot and not Geoff and Greg is because unlike Destiny, Geoff and Greg didn't bitch out and leave. Destiny took his jab and then ducked out of the call like a pussy. Thats why wheat went off like that. You just basically rewrote what he just said, and didn't actually give a legitimate reason why DJWheat acted like a child. Destiny ragequiting a show is enough to warrant an act like that? Really? Then you also have an immature mind. That's just Wheat's shtick. He's been doing it forever, it's not like he actually lost control of himself. You could see him growing increasingly exasperated at Destiny banging his head against a brick wall (TWO YEARS? Did anyone hear him say TWO YEARS?) and ignoring every counter point presented to him and so he let it all out when Destiny ragequit the call like that. I actually cannot comprehend the number of people siding with Destiny over on reddit right now, it's like he understood nothing that was being said to him the whole time he was on that call, I would be frustrated too.
It's because Wheat wanted Destiny to give a solution to the crisis. But with the way bnet2.0 works no one can fix the game unless they work at blizzard. What might be possible though is to start a UMS sc2, and fix the game that way. But then again because of the way bnet2.0 is made, that UMS probably wont be popular to make it to the front page and therefore no one will play it (try playing starbow or sc2:bw, it's almost impossible to find people).
|
I actually think 'destiny's approach' is productive. It might be childish and immature or whatever, but if you look at most major game changes they are preceded by loud obnoxious bitching an whining by the community. The recent changes made in D3 are a perfect example. The communty was pissed, the forums were spammed and the game was fixed. That's a pretty common 'procedure'.
Personally however I couldnt give a fuck if sc2 grows or not.
|
On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 11:14 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:12 Leth0 wrote:
Destiny having a fucking meltdown on his stream. Yelling at a DJwheat (that is not there) to suck his dick over the fact that DJwheat actually works for Twitch and can easily see that their viewer numbers (for everything) is on the rise.
To be clear, I'm not even watching his stream, I was tuned into the morrow stream and overhear his petty whiney bullshit. viewers are up for twitch because LoL came into the picture  Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant. The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw
Wheat hid behind overall stream numbers (twitch) and never mentioned SC2 numbers.
|
On October 24 2012 12:42 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:38 matiK23 wrote:On October 24 2012 12:34 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 24 2012 12:27 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:23 Fluid wrote:On October 24 2012 12:14 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:06 joogai wrote:
If I act as immature as Dj Wheat when I'm that old, I hope someone puts me down. Wheat acted like a jackass. Idra made a cheap shot at destiny telling him to quit and go play LoL and then incontrol came over to high five him on camera just to egg destiny on even further. Wheat says nothing. Then destiny responds by making an immature cheap shot at idra and incontrol. Oh, so now wheat cares. Now he yells about it. Between that, the completely moronic breaking bad analogy, and telling us stream numbers are rising without saying anything about SC2's stream numbers, which was the focus of the conversation, not overall numbers, wheat had an incredibly poor showing. You can't let Idra and Incontrol make cheap shots and then get mad when your guest gets frustrated and makes a cheap shot back. Wheat is friends with sirScoots from EG, so he tends to side with the EG guys in debates (or just not say anything if they say something stupid). Yeah, that scream at the end was really annoying, but Wheat does immature stuff like that. You'd hear a scream like that every now and then, when a caller "pisses him off" (aka says something that most people in a forum would scoff at easily). Usually the people wheat rags on somewhat deserve it, even if he does overplay the screaming part. This time I don't know how any sane person couldn't see the blatant bias in wheat letting a cheap shot at destiny go by without a peep, then not a minute later throwing a hissy fit about destiny's cheap shot. Clearly wheat is way too comfy with his panel to be objective enough to have guests with differing opinions on, he should probably avoid that kind of situation in the future if he doesnt want to look foolish again. the reason that djWHEAT went off on Destiny for the cheap shot and not Geoff and Greg is because unlike Destiny, Geoff and Greg didn't bitch out and leave. Destiny took his jab and then ducked out of the call like a pussy. Thats why wheat went off like that. You just basically rewrote what he just said, and didn't actually give a legitimate reason why DJWheat acted like a child. Destiny ragequiting a show is enough to warrant an act like that? Really? Then you also have an immature mind. do you know who djWHEAT is? He goes off on people like this all the time. Seriously, at least once per show he does he will go off on a caller/Slasher because of something stupid they do. It was hilarious and damn entertaining. Its why we love djWHEAT. And i didn't rewrite what the guy i quoted said. The guy i quoted is upset cause Wheat went off on Destiny but was fine with Greg's jab. Wheat went off on Destiny cause he bitched out and ragequit the call after taking his jab. Greg didn't do that.
Wheat actually posted on reddit that he didn't hear Greg's jab at destiny about going back to LoL. He was probably too boiled up inside to be listening to anything. Also Greg didn't do that because 1. he is part of the show and Destiny is just a guest. and 2. Do you really think Wheat would actually go off on Idra, the same organization? Wheat wasn't actually being an unbiased mod.
|
On October 24 2012 12:35 matiK23 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 11:58 TrippSC2 wrote:
I really used to like Destiny, because he could actually make a sound, convincing argument that was well reasoned, but I haven't seen that side of him in a really long time.
The point that Idra and Incontrol were making seems pretty clean cut and I really didn't hear anything sound to refute it. He just kept saying "Blizzard is bad" over and over. I'm sure he was pissed off about the "go play LoL"-type response, but honestly that's the only thing of substance that he brought to the table was "Blizzard is shit, look at LoL." I didn't think the way Idra phrased his comment was out-of-line at all. Destiny was having a love fest over LoL and he said what anyone watching that was thinking (and I've been thinking for several months). Why doesn't Destiny just switch to LoL since he's more passionate about it?
I hate to say it, but it really feels like all of this seems to be motivated by stream views for Destiny... I don't know about anyone else, but he doesn't entertain me like he used to and his level of play isn't top caliber, so there really isn't anything to draw me to his stream. Seeing as how he makes ALL of his money from streaming (since he doesn't have any winnings and no team sponsorship), I'm damn sure that he's looking for anything that can possibly get his name out there to generate more views for him. So this was all a ploy so 2000 people can just watch Destiny sit in his chair? Cmon man. Destiny gets* 1.3-5k viewers a night, I'm pretty sure he's not that desperate for an extra 500.
My point is that the reasons to watch Destiny stream are drying up. He isn't nearly as funny as he used to be and his game play isn't at a level that it alone would have me watch him play. The only thing left is drama.
I framed this in terms of risk/reward for the community, but for Destiny, any publicity is good publicity and there is essentially no risk. He's not going to be signed by a team (nor does he seem to want to, but that may change) and controversy will only get more views.
So, yes, I can totally see it being plausible for him to only be doing this primarily for more stream views, with the off-possibility of improving his stream views long-term from his campaign actually working.
|
On October 24 2012 12:46 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:42 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 24 2012 12:38 matiK23 wrote:On October 24 2012 12:34 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 24 2012 12:27 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:23 Fluid wrote:On October 24 2012 12:14 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:06 joogai wrote:
If I act as immature as Dj Wheat when I'm that old, I hope someone puts me down. Wheat acted like a jackass. Idra made a cheap shot at destiny telling him to quit and go play LoL and then incontrol came over to high five him on camera just to egg destiny on even further. Wheat says nothing. Then destiny responds by making an immature cheap shot at idra and incontrol. Oh, so now wheat cares. Now he yells about it. Between that, the completely moronic breaking bad analogy, and telling us stream numbers are rising without saying anything about SC2's stream numbers, which was the focus of the conversation, not overall numbers, wheat had an incredibly poor showing. You can't let Idra and Incontrol make cheap shots and then get mad when your guest gets frustrated and makes a cheap shot back. Wheat is friends with sirScoots from EG, so he tends to side with the EG guys in debates (or just not say anything if they say something stupid). Yeah, that scream at the end was really annoying, but Wheat does immature stuff like that. You'd hear a scream like that every now and then, when a caller "pisses him off" (aka says something that most people in a forum would scoff at easily). Usually the people wheat rags on somewhat deserve it, even if he does overplay the screaming part. This time I don't know how any sane person couldn't see the blatant bias in wheat letting a cheap shot at destiny go by without a peep, then not a minute later throwing a hissy fit about destiny's cheap shot. Clearly wheat is way too comfy with his panel to be objective enough to have guests with differing opinions on, he should probably avoid that kind of situation in the future if he doesnt want to look foolish again. the reason that djWHEAT went off on Destiny for the cheap shot and not Geoff and Greg is because unlike Destiny, Geoff and Greg didn't bitch out and leave. Destiny took his jab and then ducked out of the call like a pussy. Thats why wheat went off like that. You just basically rewrote what he just said, and didn't actually give a legitimate reason why DJWheat acted like a child. Destiny ragequiting a show is enough to warrant an act like that? Really? Then you also have an immature mind. do you know who djWHEAT is? He goes off on people like this all the time. Seriously, at least once per show he does he will go off on a caller/Slasher because of something stupid they do. It was hilarious and damn entertaining. Its why we love djWHEAT. And i didn't rewrite what the guy i quoted said. The guy i quoted is upset cause Wheat went off on Destiny but was fine with Greg's jab. Wheat went off on Destiny cause he bitched out and ragequit the call after taking his jab. Greg didn't do that. Why would greg drop the call? He can give whatever cheap shots he wants and nobody is going to call him out on it. Destiny was in a hostile environment from the get go, and responded poorly. I'm not upset, I think everyone except painuser on the show today looked like a bunch of immature children and are a poor example of this community. That is more disappointing than upsetting to me.
Destiny didn't have to leave the call though. He chose to bitch out. And he put himself in the hostile environment with his entire tone. He sounded drunk, was ranting like a child, was constantly interrupting and so on. Greg and Geoff stayed calm for a long time, putting up with Destiny's ranting. If Destiny came on, which was his own idea, and talked in a calm and thought out manner, things would have been fine. But he didn't.
|
On October 24 2012 12:47 Dwayn wrote:
I actually think 'destiny's approach' is productive. It might be childish and immature or whatever, but if you look at most major game changes they are preceded by loud obnoxious bitching an whining by the community. The recent changes made in D3 are a perfect example. The communty was pissed, the forums were spammed and the game was fixed. That's a pretty common 'procedure'.
Personally however I couldnt give a fuck if sc2 grows or not.
What changes are you looking for? Clan support? Shared replays? Resume from replays? Improved custom game system? Unranked matchmaking? Detailed stats? Global play?
All the shit that was announced for HotS as a result of constructive community feedback, before Destiny's post and the whole SAVEHOTS twitter campaign?
|
On October 24 2012 12:47 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 11:14 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:12 Leth0 wrote:
Destiny having a fucking meltdown on his stream. Yelling at a DJwheat (that is not there) to suck his dick over the fact that DJwheat actually works for Twitch and can easily see that their viewer numbers (for everything) is on the rise.
To be clear, I'm not even watching his stream, I was tuned into the morrow stream and overhear his petty whiney bullshit. viewers are up for twitch because LoL came into the picture Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant. The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw Wheat hid behind overall stream numbers (twitch) and never mentioned SC2 numbers.
He wasn't hiding behind shit. His point, that seems to have eluded you, is that the entire scene of this thing is growing. SO many more people are watching game streams online and it's only getting bigger. There is a shitload of people watching a shitload of content, from LoL, to SC2, to diablo, to wow, to CoD, to fucking every kind of game you can imagine! Who gives a shit what's bigger? You think I care that LoL stream numbers are bigger than sc2? I'm a fan of Sc2 so I watch Sc2. It's that simple.
|
On October 24 2012 12:38 matiK23 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:34 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 24 2012 12:27 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:23 Fluid wrote:On October 24 2012 12:14 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:06 joogai wrote:
If I act as immature as Dj Wheat when I'm that old, I hope someone puts me down. Wheat acted like a jackass. Idra made a cheap shot at destiny telling him to quit and go play LoL and then incontrol came over to high five him on camera just to egg destiny on even further. Wheat says nothing. Then destiny responds by making an immature cheap shot at idra and incontrol. Oh, so now wheat cares. Now he yells about it. Between that, the completely moronic breaking bad analogy, and telling us stream numbers are rising without saying anything about SC2's stream numbers, which was the focus of the conversation, not overall numbers, wheat had an incredibly poor showing. You can't let Idra and Incontrol make cheap shots and then get mad when your guest gets frustrated and makes a cheap shot back. Wheat is friends with sirScoots from EG, so he tends to side with the EG guys in debates (or just not say anything if they say something stupid). Yeah, that scream at the end was really annoying, but Wheat does immature stuff like that. You'd hear a scream like that every now and then, when a caller "pisses him off" (aka says something that most people in a forum would scoff at easily). Usually the people wheat rags on somewhat deserve it, even if he does overplay the screaming part. This time I don't know how any sane person couldn't see the blatant bias in wheat letting a cheap shot at destiny go by without a peep, then not a minute later throwing a hissy fit about destiny's cheap shot. Clearly wheat is way too comfy with his panel to be objective enough to have guests with differing opinions on, he should probably avoid that kind of situation in the future if he doesnt want to look foolish again. the reason that djWHEAT went off on Destiny for the cheap shot and not Geoff and Greg is because unlike Destiny, Geoff and Greg didn't bitch out and leave. Destiny took his jab and then ducked out of the call like a pussy. Thats why wheat went off like that. You just basically rewrote what he just said, and didn't actually give a legitimate reason why DJWheat acted like a child. Destiny ragequiting a show is enough to warrant an act like that? Really? Then you also have an immature mind.
I'm not supporting the wheat rage, but at the same time I really can't blame the guy for acting as he did. He brought Destiny on to his show to give him the opportunity to explain his opinions, Destiny then completely reroutes dialog when presented with any question he can't come up with a decent answer to, constantly talks over anyone trying to voice their opinion, and then when he feels he can't "win," resorts to a fucking asinine cheap shot / hang up; no better than a shitty troll call. To put it in short, Destiny basically just shitted all over the show with his behavior. So yea, I'd be pretty pissed too if I extended an invite like that to only receive that treatment in response. If Destiny had came on to have a legitimate debate as opposed to try and convert people, the show would have been drastically different.
In regards to the high five, Destiny had been dodging so much at that point it was practically talking to a brick wall. Again, same as wheat, I'm not going to support the behavior, but it's completely understandable under the circumstances. It's also incredibly less offensive compared to what Destiny did.
|
On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 11:14 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:12 Leth0 wrote:
Destiny having a fucking meltdown on his stream. Yelling at a DJwheat (that is not there) to suck his dick over the fact that DJwheat actually works for Twitch and can easily see that their viewer numbers (for everything) is on the rise.
To be clear, I'm not even watching his stream, I was tuned into the morrow stream and overhear his petty whiney bullshit. viewers are up for twitch because LoL came into the picture Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant. The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw
He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful.
|
Hilarious how Incontrol/Idra says "dont complain, dont put pressure on blizzard, we can fix small things but not all of them" howcome we cant do it all like Destiny says, Idra + Incontrol come off as huge douchebags.
|
On October 24 2012 12:52 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:47 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 11:14 colossusFTW wrote:[quote] viewers are up for twitch because LoL came into the picture Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant. The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw Wheat hid behind overall stream numbers (twitch) and never mentioned SC2 numbers. He wasn't hiding behind shit. His point, that seems to have eluded you, is that the entire scene of this thing is growing. SO many more people are watching game streams online and it's only getting bigger. Who gives a shit what's bigger? You think I care that LoL stream numbers are bigger than sc2? I'm a fan of Sc2 so I watch Sc2.
The scene of what? If SC2 numbers are down why does it matter that LoL numbers are up when I am only interested in watching SC2. When destiny said the stream numbers were down he was talking about SC2, yet somehow wheat construed that to mean the twitch stream numbers.
|
On October 24 2012 12:46 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:42 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 24 2012 12:38 matiK23 wrote:On October 24 2012 12:34 jmbthirteen wrote:On October 24 2012 12:27 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:23 Fluid wrote:On October 24 2012 12:14 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:06 joogai wrote:
If I act as immature as Dj Wheat when I'm that old, I hope someone puts me down. Wheat acted like a jackass. Idra made a cheap shot at destiny telling him to quit and go play LoL and then incontrol came over to high five him on camera just to egg destiny on even further. Wheat says nothing. Then destiny responds by making an immature cheap shot at idra and incontrol. Oh, so now wheat cares. Now he yells about it. Between that, the completely moronic breaking bad analogy, and telling us stream numbers are rising without saying anything about SC2's stream numbers, which was the focus of the conversation, not overall numbers, wheat had an incredibly poor showing. You can't let Idra and Incontrol make cheap shots and then get mad when your guest gets frustrated and makes a cheap shot back. Wheat is friends with sirScoots from EG, so he tends to side with the EG guys in debates (or just not say anything if they say something stupid). Yeah, that scream at the end was really annoying, but Wheat does immature stuff like that. You'd hear a scream like that every now and then, when a caller "pisses him off" (aka says something that most people in a forum would scoff at easily). Usually the people wheat rags on somewhat deserve it, even if he does overplay the screaming part. This time I don't know how any sane person couldn't see the blatant bias in wheat letting a cheap shot at destiny go by without a peep, then not a minute later throwing a hissy fit about destiny's cheap shot. Clearly wheat is way too comfy with his panel to be objective enough to have guests with differing opinions on, he should probably avoid that kind of situation in the future if he doesnt want to look foolish again. the reason that djWHEAT went off on Destiny for the cheap shot and not Geoff and Greg is because unlike Destiny, Geoff and Greg didn't bitch out and leave. Destiny took his jab and then ducked out of the call like a pussy. Thats why wheat went off like that. You just basically rewrote what he just said, and didn't actually give a legitimate reason why DJWheat acted like a child. Destiny ragequiting a show is enough to warrant an act like that? Really? Then you also have an immature mind. do you know who djWHEAT is? He goes off on people like this all the time. Seriously, at least once per show he does he will go off on a caller/Slasher because of something stupid they do. It was hilarious and damn entertaining. Its why we love djWHEAT. And i didn't rewrite what the guy i quoted said. The guy i quoted is upset cause Wheat went off on Destiny but was fine with Greg's jab. Wheat went off on Destiny cause he bitched out and ragequit the call after taking his jab. Greg didn't do that. Why would greg drop the call? He can give whatever cheap shots he wants and nobody is going to call him out on it. Destiny was in a hostile environment from the get go, and responded poorly. I'm not upset, I think everyone except painuser on the show today looked like a bunch of immature children and are a poor example of this community. That is more disappointing than upsetting to me.
he asked to be put into the environment and then spent the entire time yelling and rehashing the same point. he earned his treatment.
|
On October 24 2012 12:41 RezJ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:36 Fionn wrote:
For SC2 to become the most popular e-sport, most of you will come to hate it.
This is the same forum that wanted to murder Blizzard for having worker counts on the capital buildings. This is just Wheat's Breaking Bad vs. American Idol argument all over again. In SC2's case there are ways to improve the user experience without compromising the quality of the product, or in other words, bring in the noobs without killing esports.
the tv show thing was pure stupid. "what's the better show?" well lets try not asking a group of males in their 20's. Middle aged people and young teenage girls couldn't give 2 shits about breaking bad.
|
On October 24 2012 12:55 NotYetAWoman wrote:
Hilarious how Incontrol/Idra says "dont complain, dont put pressure on blizzard, we can fix small things but not all of them" howcome we cant do it all like Destiny says, Idra + Incontrol come off as huge douchebags.
Do you realize that quotes are used to quote a person and what they said? Don't put quotes around shit you make up just because you don't understand the point that they were making.
Hilarious how Incontrol/Idra says "dont complain, dont put pressure on blizzard, we can fix small things but not all of them"
Is not what they said ...at..all.
|
On October 24 2012 12:54 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 11:14 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:12 Leth0 wrote:
Destiny having a fucking meltdown on his stream. Yelling at a DJwheat (that is not there) to suck his dick over the fact that DJwheat actually works for Twitch and can easily see that their viewer numbers (for everything) is on the rise.
To be clear, I'm not even watching his stream, I was tuned into the morrow stream and overhear his petty whiney bullshit. viewers are up for twitch because LoL came into the picture Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant. The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful.
Once again, twitch's numbers are up. He said nothing about SC2's numbers.
|
On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 11:14 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:12 Leth0 wrote:
Destiny having a fucking meltdown on his stream. Yelling at a DJwheat (that is not there) to suck his dick over the fact that DJwheat actually works for Twitch and can easily see that their viewer numbers (for everything) is on the rise.
To be clear, I'm not even watching his stream, I was tuned into the morrow stream and overhear his petty whiney bullshit. viewers are up for twitch because LoL came into the picture Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant. The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw
sigh, no, the entire point is that interested viewers haven't noticeably decreased outside a dip that can be and was explained as "incoming expansion malaise" but the amount of attractive streams/events have gone up, diffusing the viewership along different venues and players. of course you can make different arguments based on the stream in question, but generally both idra and destiny, while occupying different sides of the debate, can attribute lowered viewer count to this phenomenon.
On October 24 2012 12:47 Duravi wrote:Wheat hid behind overall stream numbers (twitch) and never mentioned SC2 numbers.
I'm pretty sure that was a reference to the overall SC2 viewership being diffused along different streams vs. destiny's point about decreased personal streaming viewership between himself and idra; I might be mistaken.
also, this isn't reddit (not...really), so let us not blindly feel for destiny being hated on when he willingly walked into the buzzsaw that was raging incontrol/djwheat and an ambivalent idra/painuser. that parting jibe was stupid bullshit, he had the ability to rise above idra's equally lame quip and didn't.
|
On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:52 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 12:47 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:
[quote]
Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant.
The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw Wheat hid behind overall stream numbers (twitch) and never mentioned SC2 numbers. He wasn't hiding behind shit. His point, that seems to have eluded you, is that the entire scene of this thing is growing. SO many more people are watching game streams online and it's only getting bigger. Who gives a shit what's bigger? You think I care that LoL stream numbers are bigger than sc2? I'm a fan of Sc2 so I watch Sc2. The scene of what?
Twitches stream numbers!!!!, What the fuck do you think he was talking about when he says "Twitch stream numbers are constantly growing" ....
|
On October 24 2012 12:56 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:41 RezJ wrote:On October 24 2012 12:36 Fionn wrote:
For SC2 to become the most popular e-sport, most of you will come to hate it.
This is the same forum that wanted to murder Blizzard for having worker counts on the capital buildings. This is just Wheat's Breaking Bad vs. American Idol argument all over again. In SC2's case there are ways to improve the user experience without compromising the quality of the product, or in other words, bring in the noobs without killing esports. the tv show thing was pure stupid. "what's the better show?" well lets try not asking a group of males in their 20's. Middle aged people and young teenage girls couldn't give 2 shits about breaking bad.
while the entire premise of this dichotomy is needlessly confrontational and insulting to league, it still holds up to basic generalizations about casual players and what they want to see re: dumbing down products. pretty sure I can still win djwheat's hypothetical debate in favor of BB, it's not a subjective comparison that SC2 is more complex than league at the very base mechanical level.
I agree with both rezj and fionn...you could make pretty palette schemes to attract casuals without compromising tournaments, but aren't we better than that? :p
|
On October 18 2012 12:43 MisterFred wrote:
Frankly, I don't see much to discuss there.
Destiny seems like the kind of person who'd see the easy way out. Hey, look over there, come savior and prop up our industry with free money! Completely ignoring the possibility that he is exactly the sort of loose cannon (& second-tier) player that would be least likely to benefit from a more centralized tourney organization.
Fact of the matter is, I don't see a ton of similarity between LoL & SC2 e-sports from Blizzard & Riot's point of view. Blizzard sells SC2 in the traditional manner. They put in a large capital investment, get back a giant influx of cash upon release, an influx that quickly diminishes to a slow trickle after the game's release. Where is the benefit to e-sports for them? Basically 2 things:
1) Word-of-mouth advertisement. This is actually a relatively small thing, as gamers don't really push other people to watch SC2 who don't already know it well enough to potentially own a copy of it. There's some benefit to Blizzard here, but it doesn't seem like Blizzard sees it as enough to make a major investment. Even with Brood War in Korea, the mass availability of BW in PCBangs came BEFORE Kespa. Before the initial launch of SC2, Blizzard cared little about esports. It just didn't have significant financial upside for them. In fact, their only major efforts in the e-sports scene were to a) make sure they had a legal way to extort money from wildly successful esports endeavors by making all people offering a prize pool over $5,000 apply for a tourney license and b) pressuring Kespa to end BW broadcasts in an effort to get Korean fans to switch to the new game.
2) Generating expansion enthusiasm. This is the reason Blizzard is holding a big WCS push this year, and don't doubt it for a second. The SC2 sales period is pretty much over, but HOTS is coming out. Blizzard needs to increase enthusiasm for SC2 so that the game remains high enough in the consciousness of those who bought SC2 that HOTS seems exciting and new and desirable. This gets them their next big payday. It is no accident that Blizzard is trying to get people from around the world into WCS, and no accident that their big investment happened THIS YEAR, at what is honestly a sub-optimal time for SC2 esports (why not last year?). This year is their leadup to HOTS, and WCS is part of their advertising - advertising aimed primarily at people who already own SC2.
Long story short - if Blizzard doesn't have an SC2 expansion to market they will immediately end major financial support for the esports scene. This is why Geoff is right. Long-term survival of SC2 esports requires community-driven growth. Otherwise you're just riding the advertising boom straight down into the bust.
League of Legends is DIFFERENT. Why? It's a free-to-play game. Which doesn't mean Riot doesn't make money. They make it hand over fist. But they make it through micro-transactions. Selling easy access to characters & distinctive skins.
This is a fundamentally different revenue stream than SC2. There is a smaller capital investment then a relatively consistent revenue stream that rises and falls with the size of their player base. And the fanaticism of their player base.
Riot does not expect e-sports to grow their player/customer base, the only reason Blizzard would support SC2 e-sports (as increasing the # of people who own Blizzard games is the only way to increase Blizzard's revenue stream.
Riot wants esports for two reasons:
1) Keep existing players involved with the game. This function is easy to understand from an SC2 e-sports persecutive. How many of us continue to play SC2 primarily because we get excited about it after watching e-sports. That's the case with me, certainly. Blizzard doesn't really care all that much if B.net servers are filled. But for Riot, the long-term attention of its customers on LoL is critical to their bottom line. If people keep playing, that's a larger number of people who will buy the new Gragras skin. Supporting e-sports provides another way to keep Riot's players interested in LoL & thus increases Riot's bottom line. A clear reason for Riot to support a healthy e-sports community.
2) Increase the passion of players involved with LoL. The retention of the player base is not the only benefit of e-sports for Riot. The greater the passion of the players, the larger number of impatient impulse buys they will make. Riot should really get the pro players to occasionally use the more distinctive skins - prompting players to buy them. Or say a player sees a pro player have a breakout game when the meta-game shifts and a previously unpopular hero becomes a major factor in pro play. Boom! E-sports fans mob that character buying him in the Riot store to try out the pro strategies. This equals money for Riot. So where factor #1 increases the number of players Riot can potentially sell to, this factor increases the amount of money they can make off each player. A major reason for Riot to support e-sports. And one Blizzard simply does not have.
Geoff sees this. I'm not making him out to be some economist savant, but he spends at least some time thinking about the underlying support for his industry. And direct Blizzard support is nice, bit it is ephemeral. It will vanish under the scene's feet when much of them do not expect it.
Destiny is dead wrong because he didn't think much about this. He looks over at what Riot is doing and things "my life would be easier if Blizzard did this" without realizing that the situations are VASTLY different.
SC2 has a major advantage over LoL as an e-sport, the one everyone knows about. It's better visually as a sport & requires low game knowledge to 'get' while watching. LoL is a confusing mess to watch unless you play LoL. I occasionally play LoL and I have no idea what's going on during fights in the few pro matches I've watched. SC2 e-sports people need to leverage their advantage and grow SC2 like a traditional sport relying on viewership, advertising, and their superior fan demographic to hopefully build a long-term business model, while praying Blizzard doesn't screw them over rather than hoping for handouts.
LoL has a major advantage over SC2 as an e-sport, the massive financial motivation of a cash-flush corporation to subsidize a credible e-sports scene. They should know they will never gain viewers who are not MOBA players, and concentrate on supporting Riot's goals because building an independent e-sport that can grow without the game is impossible for them, but they CAN rely on Riot's relatively steady support while LoL remains relevant. Unlike the SC2 scene.
Totally different business models for games & e-sports communities.
Mostly a great post, but... Blizzard needs to change their business model of Sc2. Right now they have a kind of middle of the way approach. Trying to appeal somewhat to casuals, and somewhat to hard-core gamers (esports). But honestly, the approach isn't working very well.
First of all Bnet 2.0 as a massive fail. They should have made a platform which focussed on the social aspect of the game. Bnet 2.0 was a step backwards. This would probably have supported casual players to keep playing sc2.
Secondly, they should have studied every single aspect of the game, and found more ways which could make the game less stressfull for newcommers. I think mostly they did a decent job of this, but it's still a middle of the way approach.
Third) They should have found a way to monetize the esports aspect. Too some extent, they tried to make an esports-game, but they never studied what made the game become an succes in South Korea, and hence they didn't get the sales numbers of sc2 which they wanted. The only way esports actually supports Blizzard economically is in terms of South Korean sc sales. In terms of foreign sales, esports barely matters.
But if they found a way to monetize esports, they could have kept supporting and reworking the game for hard-core games, without the casuals paying any more money than the purchase price.
Right now, the sc2 business model really doesn't work, as it tries to sell it self to two different segments and doesn't do a very good job at neither.
I think Mike Morhaimme is the one to problem for this, and I believe blizzard needs more MBA'ers than liberals arts guys like Dustin Browder to come up with an improved business model for Sc2.
AS it is right now, Sc2 won't die, but it will continue to shrink, though I expect it to maintain a decent niche as there is really no other RTS games out there.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
