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On October 24 2012 12:00 Fionn wrote:
Streaming numbers are down, but are tournament numbers really down? Can anyone actually give some stats? Like, actual stats. Not, 'I seem to remember SC2 being like really big during the first few months, but now it's not...'
Considering the last DH topped at like 40k ish, I would say unless there is alot of hype around the event(WCS europe) the numbers are usually down, I dont know by how much but I strongly feel they are lowering. I know LoL attract alot of attention and so do newer game but I also do know alot of people from SC2 that have switched to LoL in the past months. So unless there is alot of hype surrounding the event the numbers will always be down and at best if there is hype the numbers will be on par to what we peak at.
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On October 24 2012 12:06 joogai wrote:
If I act as immature as Dj Wheat when I'm that old, I hope someone puts me down.
Wheat acted like a jackass. Idra made a cheap shot at destiny telling him to quit and go play LoL and then incontrol came over to high five him on camera just to egg destiny on even further. Wheat says nothing. Then destiny responds by making an immature cheap shot at idra and incontrol. Oh, so now wheat cares. Now he yells about it. Between that, the completely moronic breaking bad analogy, and telling us stream numbers are rising without saying anything about SC2's stream numbers, which was the focus of the conversation, not overall numbers, wheat had an incredibly poor showing. You can't let Idra and Incontrol make cheap shots and then get mad when your guest gets frustrated and makes a cheap shot back.
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On October 24 2012 11:58 TrippSC2 wrote:
I really used to like Destiny, because he could actually make a sound, convincing argument that was well reasoned, but I haven't seen that side of him in a really long time.
The point that Idra and Incontrol were making seems pretty clean cut and I really didn't hear anything sound to refute it. He just kept saying "Blizzard is bad" over and over. I'm sure he was pissed off about the "go play LoL"-type response, but honestly that's the only thing of substance that he brought to the table was "Blizzard is shit, look at LoL." I didn't think the way Idra phrased his comment was out-of-line at all. Destiny was having a love fest over LoL and he said what anyone watching that was thinking (and I've been thinking for several months). Why doesn't Destiny just switch to LoL since he's more passionate about it?
I hate to say it, but it really feels like all of this seems to be motivated by stream views for Destiny... I don't know about anyone else, but he doesn't entertain me like he used to and his level of play isn't top caliber, so there really isn't anything to draw me to his stream. Seeing as how he makes ALL of his money from streaming (since he doesn't have any winnings and no team sponsorship), I'm damn sure that he's looking for anything that can possibly get his name out there to generate more views for him.
To be clear, Destiny is saying, "look at LoL, that is what Blizzard did, and should be doing." He is saying as a community they can only do so much to grow SC2 as an watchable e-sport. Blizzard can increase the potential playing crowd, by creating a game that is more accessible to the casual audience and having a better experience. The game play overall maybe fine, but the experience is something that can keep people from coming back. Examples given of how to keep people coming back are clan support, shared replays, chat rooms, etc. Create a sense of community within the actual game. Idra and Incontrol agreed with that sentiment, but where they disagreed is whether they should keep trying to pressure Blizzard to do something or not. Idra and Incontrol seem to have given up trying to get Blizzard to do something, whereas Destiny is trying to incite the community to pressure Blizzard to do something.
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United States23455 Posts
On October 24 2012 12:13 Phemtos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:00 Fionn wrote:
Streaming numbers are down, but are tournament numbers really down? Can anyone actually give some stats? Like, actual stats. Not, 'I seem to remember SC2 being like really big during the first few months, but now it's not...' Considering the last DH topped at like 40k ish, I would say unless there is alot of hype around the event(WCS europe) the numbers are usually down, I dont know by how much but I strongly feel they are lowering. I know LoL attract alot of attention and so do newer game but I also do know alot of people from SC2 that have switched to LoL in the past months. So unless there is alot of hype surrounding the event the numbers will always be down and at best if there is hype the numbers will be on par to what we peak at.
Dreamhack Dracula is by far the worst example to use.
It had only four Koreans and none of them big names. There were no top fan favorites. There were no Stephano, Idra, Huk, Naniwa, etc. Nerchio is really fucking good and so were others in the tournament, but it was the smallest big tournament of the year.
I'm amazed it got 40,000. It had around the same numbers as the Starladder finals which had the most popular foreign team in Navi.
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On October 24 2012 12:11 JazzJackrabbit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:00 Fionn wrote:
Streaming numbers are down, but are tournament numbers really down? Can anyone actually give some stats? Like, actual stats. Not, 'I seem to remember SC2 being like really big during the first few months, but now it's not...' I don't know how much weight this holds but I remember a time not too long ago when I would go on Twitch, hit Browse, and SC2 would almost always have the most current viewers of any game. These days I would say, maybe, at least 80% of the time the top game is LoL. Again, I don't really know if it means much but it's something I've noticed over the past little while.
LoL grew alot in the past couple of months, especially on twitch where alot of players switched to it from own3d but also because there have been more tournaments to show. Before that it was basically only IEM and the riot final event but now we have IPL/MLG/OGN and many more league from different country.
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The reason Idra and Incontrol were against Destiny's post is not necessarily because they don't agree with it, but because they believe it's counter productive - which in their case might be true to some extent, because they're currently in a position of comfort.
Idra and Incontrol happen to be signed to the most sustained and wealthy team out there. What Destiny suggests essentially puts them out of the comfort zone, because it calls for people to recognize that the game is broken and that we have to say "stop right the fuck now" and tell the developers to fix it. That same game that puts food in their mouths. In their eyes, this is filling the community with negativity, and thus makes numbers fall. But in our eyes, the negativity is a product of the community's frustration with the game and Blizzard.
I think what the EG players are failing to see is that Destiny's message is effective and productive to them as well. Just because Blizzard haven't answered many of our calls up until now, doesn't mean they won't listen if there will be a hell of a lot more noise from their audience - the same noise the EG players are trying to diminish. They are, therefore, the ones who are being counter-productive.
I'm actually really disappointed by the fact that Destiny couldn't contain himself through the rest of the show, but that can happen to anyone when talking passionately about something and bumping against a brick wall.
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I never thought I'd watch an ITG and want to stand up and clap for Painuser of all people. I think he's possibly the only one there who can discuss points without making everything a joke/yelling/insulting.
Especially Wheat should stop stomping around and screaming into the microphone as well, you're a grownass man.
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On October 24 2012 12:13 Phemtos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:00 Fionn wrote:
Streaming numbers are down, but are tournament numbers really down? Can anyone actually give some stats? Like, actual stats. Not, 'I seem to remember SC2 being like really big during the first few months, but now it's not...' Considering the last DH topped at like 40k ish, I would say unless there is alot of hype around the event(WCS europe) the numbers are usually down, I dont know by how much but I strongly feel they are lowering. I know LoL attract alot of attention and so do newer game but I also do know alot of people from SC2 that have switched to LoL in the past months. So unless there is alot of hype surrounding the event the numbers will always be down and at best if there is hype the numbers will be on par to what we peak at.
The last DH topped at 40k with a very uninspiring player setup. 40k is lower than the best tops DH has had, even though they have not had THAT high numbers that we can talk about a plummet. But those top numbers are also during finals with really good players. One also needs to remember that initially there were one DH a year essentially. It is quite natural that if you go from 1 to 4 tournaments a year then the viewers will spread out. I am a passionate e-sports fan and I did not watch the last DH, mainly because I don't have time to watch everything and since there are numerous DH's every year, I can focus on the most interesting ones. If there was only 1 mlg, 1 gsl season and 1 dh every year, I bet you the views would be much much higher.
Oh not to mention that DH was on the same day as the GSL FINALS. I wonder how many people with limited time chose to forego DH and watch only the gsl.
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I think a formal debate between Destiny and incontrol should be set up. Having five people all trying to voice their opinion just leads to a clusterfuck like we saw tonight on ITG. We would of course need someone who is an experienced debater that can help moderate the actual debate.
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On October 24 2012 12:17 RezJ wrote:
The reason Idra and Incontrol were against Destiny's post is not necessarily because they don't agree with it, but because they believe it's counter productive - which in their case might be true to some extent, because they're currently in a position of comfort.
Idra and Incontrol happen to be signed to the most sustained and wealthy team out there. What Destiny suggests essentially puts them out of the comfort zone, because it calls for people to recognize that the game is broken and that we have to say "stop right the fuck now" and tell the developers to fix it. That same game that puts food in their mouths. In their eyes, this is filling the community with negativity, and thus makes numbers fall. But in our eyes, the negativity is a product of the community's frustration with the game and Blizzard.
I think what the EG players are failing to see is that Destiny's message is effective and productive to them as well. Just because Blizzard haven't answered many of our calls up until now, doesn't mean they won't listen if there will be a hell of a lot more noise from their audience - the same noise the EG players are trying to diminish. They are, therefore, the ones who are being counter-productive.
I'm actually really disappointed by the fact that Destiny couldn't contain himself through the rest of the show, but that can happen to anyone when talking passionately about something and bumping against a brick wall.
It's entirely possible that Idra is right, and the SC2 division at blizzard just does not have the resources to and/or decision making power they need to implement alot of this stuff. I got the impression Idra and Incontrol have taken the stance that the status quo is fine, where destiny thinks the community should put pressure on blizzard the company.
After how bad Diablo 3 was in my opinion, my faith in blizzard is diminishing. If people really feel that HotS is not going in the right direction, and that it is unacceptable to go over two years without basic chat and clan options, THEN DONT BUY HOTS.
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On October 24 2012 12:16 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:13 Phemtos wrote:On October 24 2012 12:00 Fionn wrote:
Streaming numbers are down, but are tournament numbers really down? Can anyone actually give some stats? Like, actual stats. Not, 'I seem to remember SC2 being like really big during the first few months, but now it's not...' Considering the last DH topped at like 40k ish, I would say unless there is alot of hype around the event(WCS europe) the numbers are usually down, I dont know by how much but I strongly feel they are lowering. I know LoL attract alot of attention and so do newer game but I also do know alot of people from SC2 that have switched to LoL in the past months. So unless there is alot of hype surrounding the event the numbers will always be down and at best if there is hype the numbers will be on par to what we peak at. Dreamhack Dracula is by far the worst example to use. It had only four Koreans and none of them big names. There were no top fan favorites. There were no Stephano, Idra, Huk, Naniwa, etc. Nerchio is really fucking good and so were others in the tournament, but it was the smallest big tournament of the year. I'm amazed it got 40,000. It had around the same numbers as the Starladder finals which had the most popular foreign team in Navi.
Im sorry I should have more clearly state that hype is also driven by the players attending those tournaments. I guess there are no good recent example to prove wether or not tournament stream numbers are really going down. We will have to see with WCS and the upcoming event but in my personnal opinion I do believe the numbers are shrinking in general.
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wow im watching it right now and they are all taking over each other while ignoring each others facts. the only one calm and not being an asshole (which sadly iNcontroL started again) wasnt allowed to speak.
its like watching 15 year olds discussing whos dad is stronger.
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On October 24 2012 12:14 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:06 joogai wrote:
If I act as immature as Dj Wheat when I'm that old, I hope someone puts me down. Wheat acted like a jackass. Idra made a cheap shot at destiny telling him to quit and go play LoL and then incontrol came over to high five him on camera just to egg destiny on even further. Wheat says nothing. Then destiny responds by making an immature cheap shot at idra and incontrol. Oh, so now wheat cares. Now he yells about it. Between that, the completely moronic breaking bad analogy, and telling us stream numbers are rising without saying anything about SC2's stream numbers, which was the focus of the conversation, not overall numbers, wheat had an incredibly poor showing. You can't let Idra and Incontrol make cheap shots and then get mad when your guest gets frustrated and makes a cheap shot back.
Wheat is friends with sirScoots from EG, so he tends to side with the EG guys in debates (or just not say anything if they say something stupid). Yeah, that scream at the end was really annoying, but Wheat does immature stuff like that. You'd hear a scream like that every now and then, when a caller "pisses him off" (aka says something that most people in a forum would scoff at easily).
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This is why SOTG will be so much better without Incontrol.
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On October 24 2012 12:23 Fluid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:14 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:06 joogai wrote:
If I act as immature as Dj Wheat when I'm that old, I hope someone puts me down. Wheat acted like a jackass. Idra made a cheap shot at destiny telling him to quit and go play LoL and then incontrol came over to high five him on camera just to egg destiny on even further. Wheat says nothing. Then destiny responds by making an immature cheap shot at idra and incontrol. Oh, so now wheat cares. Now he yells about it. Between that, the completely moronic breaking bad analogy, and telling us stream numbers are rising without saying anything about SC2's stream numbers, which was the focus of the conversation, not overall numbers, wheat had an incredibly poor showing. You can't let Idra and Incontrol make cheap shots and then get mad when your guest gets frustrated and makes a cheap shot back. Wheat is friends with sirScoots from EG, so he tends to side with the EG guys in debates (or just not say anything if they say something stupid). Yeah, that scream at the end was really annoying, but Wheat does immature stuff like that. You'd hear a scream like that every now and then, when a caller "pisses him off" (aka says something that most people in a forum would scoff at easily).
Usually the people wheat rags on somewhat deserve it, even if he does overplay the screaming part. This time I don't know how any sane person couldn't see the blatant bias in wheat letting a cheap shot at destiny go by without a peep, then not a minute later throwing a hissy fit about destiny's cheap shot. Clearly wheat is way too comfy with his panel to be objective enough to have guests with differing opinions on, he should probably avoid that kind of situation in the future if he doesnt want to look foolish again.
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On October 24 2012 12:21 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:17 RezJ wrote:
The reason Idra and Incontrol were against Destiny's post is not necessarily because they don't agree with it, but because they believe it's counter productive - which in their case might be true to some extent, because they're currently in a position of comfort.
Idra and Incontrol happen to be signed to the most sustained and wealthy team out there. What Destiny suggests essentially puts them out of the comfort zone, because it calls for people to recognize that the game is broken and that we have to say "stop right the fuck now" and tell the developers to fix it. That same game that puts food in their mouths. In their eyes, this is filling the community with negativity, and thus makes numbers fall. But in our eyes, the negativity is a product of the community's frustration with the game and Blizzard.
I think what the EG players are failing to see is that Destiny's message is effective and productive to them as well. Just because Blizzard haven't answered many of our calls up until now, doesn't mean they won't listen if there will be a hell of a lot more noise from their audience - the same noise the EG players are trying to diminish. They are, therefore, the ones who are being counter-productive.
I'm actually really disappointed by the fact that Destiny couldn't contain himself through the rest of the show, but that can happen to anyone when talking passionately about something and bumping against a brick wall. It's entirely possible that Idra is right, and the SC2 division at blizzard just does not have the resources to and/or decision making power they need to implement alot of this stuff. I got the impression Idra and Incontrol have taken the stance that the status quo is fine, where destiny thinks the community should put pressure on blizzard the company. After how bad Diablo 3 was in my opinion, my faith in blizzard is diminishing. If people really feel that HotS is not going in the right direction, and that it is unacceptable to go over two years without basic chat and clan options, THEN DONT BUY HOTS.
First of all I agree, if HoTS turns out to be a low quality followup to WoL, people should definitely not buy it.
And Idra could be right about Blizzard's resources, but I'm pretty sure even Activision is well aware of the whole eSports phenomenon. If an entire community of angry people came to either of those companies and said "HEY, FIX THIS OR GET OUT", they would listen. I don't believe either of them is oblivious to what's going on here, they just think their way is better/more profitable.
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On October 24 2012 12:14 superpanda27 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 11:58 TrippSC2 wrote:
I really used to like Destiny, because he could actually make a sound, convincing argument that was well reasoned, but I haven't seen that side of him in a really long time.
The point that Idra and Incontrol were making seems pretty clean cut and I really didn't hear anything sound to refute it. He just kept saying "Blizzard is bad" over and over. I'm sure he was pissed off about the "go play LoL"-type response, but honestly that's the only thing of substance that he brought to the table was "Blizzard is shit, look at LoL." I didn't think the way Idra phrased his comment was out-of-line at all. Destiny was having a love fest over LoL and he said what anyone watching that was thinking (and I've been thinking for several months). Why doesn't Destiny just switch to LoL since he's more passionate about it?
I hate to say it, but it really feels like all of this seems to be motivated by stream views for Destiny... I don't know about anyone else, but he doesn't entertain me like he used to and his level of play isn't top caliber, so there really isn't anything to draw me to his stream. Seeing as how he makes ALL of his money from streaming (since he doesn't have any winnings and no team sponsorship), I'm damn sure that he's looking for anything that can possibly get his name out there to generate more views for him. To be clear, Destiny is saying, "look at LoL, that is what Blizzard did, and should be doing." He is saying as a community they can only do so much to grow SC2 as an watchable e-sport. Blizzard can increase the potential playing crowd, by creating a game that is more accessible to the casual audience and having a better experience. The game play overall maybe fine, but the experience is something that can keep people from coming back. Examples given of how to keep people coming back are clan support, shared replays, chat rooms, etc. Create a sense of community within the actual game. Idra and Incontrol agreed with that sentiment, but where they disagreed is whether they should keep trying to pressure Blizzard to do something or not. Idra and Incontrol seem to have given up trying to get Blizzard to do something, whereas Destiny is trying to incite the community to pressure Blizzard to do something.
I understand both arguments. I was both paraphrasing (admittedly badly  I didn't mean to paint Destiny as a bad guy ) and trying to give context to the fact that I don't feel like it was out of line for Idra to say that if Destiny is unhappy with being an SC2 pro gamer and thinks things are so much better in LoL that he should just play LoL (in his Idra way of saying it). I've honestly been wondering how long until he actually makes the switch for up until he joined MoW.
I do agree that Destiny's approach is counter-productive (and wonder if it might just be self-serving to generate views, but I brought that up earlier). His post was all over three different discussion boards the day it was posted (reddit, b.net forums, and here). Someone new seeing that would be more apt to say "fuck this game, I'm going to find something else" after seeing that. When you add to that the fact that nothing has happened when others have brought up the same things, you're looking at a high-risk/low-reward for posting it.
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Calgary25980 Posts
On October 24 2012 12:06 joogai wrote:
If I act as immature as Dj Wheat when I'm that old, I hope someone puts me down.
User was banned for this post.
c u
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lol that ending was the only option for destiny
next stop destiny on the gd show? :D
then maybe we'll all sagely pass on to something else
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On October 24 2012 12:25 tianGO wrote:
This is why SOTG will be so much better without Incontrol.
I wholeheartedly disagree
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EPT
