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On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 11:14 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:12 Leth0 wrote:
Destiny having a fucking meltdown on his stream. Yelling at a DJwheat (that is not there) to suck his dick over the fact that DJwheat actually works for Twitch and can easily see that their viewer numbers (for everything) is on the rise.
To be clear, I'm not even watching his stream, I was tuned into the morrow stream and overhear his petty whiney bullshit. viewers are up for twitch because LoL came into the picture  Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant. The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw
Down in what way, per individual event? Maybe. But there is so much content that the numbers are way more spread out and people won't watch everything. There's almost always a tournament going on every weekend, on top of the regular content throughout the week. Then there's major events like MLG that occur every few months, and then there's community content and streams.
We don't see the same numbers that LoL or even Dota2 get for every event but we have so many events and so much content that it's impossible to say whether viewership is lower or not. It's also unreasonable to compare two different games/genres in viewership. SC2 is not dying, maybe it's not growing as fast as it was but it still has a healthy fan base and people still attend all the events. Blizzard can do more to help it grow more, so can the community. Being all doom and gloom isn't a smart way to try and improve the scene for SC2 or any other game.
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On October 24 2012 12:56 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:41 RezJ wrote:On October 24 2012 12:36 Fionn wrote:
For SC2 to become the most popular e-sport, most of you will come to hate it.
This is the same forum that wanted to murder Blizzard for having worker counts on the capital buildings. This is just Wheat's Breaking Bad vs. American Idol argument all over again. In SC2's case there are ways to improve the user experience without compromising the quality of the product, or in other words, bring in the noobs without killing esports. the tv show thing was pure stupid. "what's the better show?" well lets try not asking a group of males in their 20's. Middle aged people and young teenage girls couldn't give 2 shits about breaking bad.
Way to go totally missing the point.. The point that the whole of humanity is not one homogeneous and agreeing entity. There are actually varying interests, some interests are also smaller than others. If you want to have the mentality of always making your thing the most popular, then you can definitely do that but by doing so you are going to turn it into something you don't want in the first place. The argument is that what would be the point of going out of your way to beat another game in popularity a game that most rts fans don't even want to play just to end up turning your own game more into that. If you were to do all of the things you need to do to make sc2 as appealing to casuals as LoL is then I sure as hell won't be around playing anymore, and I bet most competitive rts fans won't either.
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On October 24 2012 12:48 TrippSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:35 matiK23 wrote:On October 24 2012 11:58 TrippSC2 wrote:
I really used to like Destiny, because he could actually make a sound, convincing argument that was well reasoned, but I haven't seen that side of him in a really long time.
The point that Idra and Incontrol were making seems pretty clean cut and I really didn't hear anything sound to refute it. He just kept saying "Blizzard is bad" over and over. I'm sure he was pissed off about the "go play LoL"-type response, but honestly that's the only thing of substance that he brought to the table was "Blizzard is shit, look at LoL." I didn't think the way Idra phrased his comment was out-of-line at all. Destiny was having a love fest over LoL and he said what anyone watching that was thinking (and I've been thinking for several months). Why doesn't Destiny just switch to LoL since he's more passionate about it?
I hate to say it, but it really feels like all of this seems to be motivated by stream views for Destiny... I don't know about anyone else, but he doesn't entertain me like he used to and his level of play isn't top caliber, so there really isn't anything to draw me to his stream. Seeing as how he makes ALL of his money from streaming (since he doesn't have any winnings and no team sponsorship), I'm damn sure that he's looking for anything that can possibly get his name out there to generate more views for him. So this was all a ploy so 2000 people can just watch Destiny sit in his chair? Cmon man. Destiny gets* 1.3-5k viewers a night, I'm pretty sure he's not that desperate for an extra 500. My point is that the reasons to watch Destiny stream are drying up. He isn't nearly as funny as he used to be and his game play isn't at a level that it alone would have me watch him play. The only thing left is drama. I framed this in terms of risk/reward for the community, but for Destiny, any publicity is good publicity and there is essentially no risk. He's not going to be signed by a team (nor does he seem to want to, but that may change) and controversy will only get more views. So, yes, I can totally see it being plausible for him to only be doing this primarily for more stream views, with the off-possibility of improving his stream views long-term from his campaign actually working.
The "nigger gook faggot" incident has always been him, and it's not like he asked his opponent to post a reddit thread about him so SRS can contact his sponsors so he can get dropped by not only a tournament as a caster and as a team member by his own best friend with the dicture incident, which he also had no control over the girl's actions of posting his dick. Destiny made a post about the downfall of SC2 that made people think, even which Nazgul said he was glad something like this was posted. So why wouldn't Destiny come on to the call and defend his points, albeit immature, childish, and thus weakening his thesis.
Destiny is a smart guy. I'm sure he knows his stream viewers are down. His viewership imo was high because of his trolling and bm. I'm sure he is self aware that he does BM or troll as much, and leads me to believe that he is sitting comfortable financially. Otherwise why would you stop doing what you do best as an entertainer?
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Great points by Incontrol during the show regarding all the doom and gloom 
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BTW idra's insult hardly compares to Destiny's. TBH, Destiny walked himself right into that statement from idra with the responses he was giving tonight, in way a that the response can be construed as both a legitimate statement and an insult.
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On October 24 2012 12:58 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:52 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 12:47 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:
[quote]
im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw Wheat hid behind overall stream numbers (twitch) and never mentioned SC2 numbers. He wasn't hiding behind shit. His point, that seems to have eluded you, is that the entire scene of this thing is growing. SO many more people are watching game streams online and it's only getting bigger. Who gives a shit what's bigger? You think I care that LoL stream numbers are bigger than sc2? I'm a fan of Sc2 so I watch Sc2. The scene of what? Twitches stream numbers!!!!, What the fuck do you think he was talking about when he says "Twitch stream numbers are constantly growing" ....
I'm pretty sure at that point Wheat has diverted the discussion to eSports in general and not specifically SC2, and I believe he meant overall Twitch viewers. I remember asking myself "what the fuck does that have to do with the state of Starcraft?". You'll have to rewatch that part to be sure though.
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On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:52 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 12:47 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:
[quote]
Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant.
The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw Wheat hid behind overall stream numbers (twitch) and never mentioned SC2 numbers. He wasn't hiding behind shit. His point, that seems to have eluded you, is that the entire scene of this thing is growing. SO many more people are watching game streams online and it's only getting bigger. Who gives a shit what's bigger? You think I care that LoL stream numbers are bigger than sc2? I'm a fan of Sc2 so I watch Sc2. The scene of what? If SC2 numbers are down why does it matter that LoL numbers are up when I am only interested in watching SC2. When destiny said the stream numbers were down he was talking about SC2, yet somehow wheat construed that to mean the twitch stream numbers.
And as Geoff pointed out, when SC2 was at it's "peak" what else was there to watch other than SC2? It's called competition, once we didn't have it and now we do.
Even with that taken into account. WCS Europe peaked at 110k viewers. That's the highest I have ever seen for an SC2 tournament, I'm confident in saying it's the highest out of all those that have been publicly accessible. Because SC2 is no longer the number 1 eSport we are suddenly dying? While at the same time we are complaining about an over saturation of content and "viewer fatigue", real first world problems there. We are number 2 now not because of a dramatic fall but because LoL grew to heights that SC2 never reached, and that's ok. Football being huge doesn't mean that Basketball is fucked. SC2 is as big as it's ever been, or close to it at least, Destiny trying to portray the scene as being on it's deathbed is bullshit, and likely more grounded in his own personal experiences with his stream as his only source of income and fame than in reality.
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Anyone who isnt a dumbass, can see that stream numbers are down for SC2, whereas LoL is breaking records with every new event going on.
Compare the LoL World Championship with... anything so far in esports... nothing has come even close.
It's silly for Destiny to expect anything real from the show tho.... EGiNcontroL and Idra... are both aprt of the same team, and part of the scene that is going to defend it to the last man, because they are overpaid clowns benefitting off of sponsors being ignorant to the fact that SC2 is dying... they need people to NOT realize that SC2 as a game is a VERY poor design with huge gaping flaws, and with more coming in the xpac..... cant expect people who make a living off of this ONE game... to Tell everyone that the game is dying...
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On October 24 2012 13:00 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:56 rysecake wrote:On October 24 2012 12:41 RezJ wrote:On October 24 2012 12:36 Fionn wrote:
For SC2 to become the most popular e-sport, most of you will come to hate it.
This is the same forum that wanted to murder Blizzard for having worker counts on the capital buildings. This is just Wheat's Breaking Bad vs. American Idol argument all over again. In SC2's case there are ways to improve the user experience without compromising the quality of the product, or in other words, bring in the noobs without killing esports. the tv show thing was pure stupid. "what's the better show?" well lets try not asking a group of males in their 20's. Middle aged people and young teenage girls couldn't give 2 shits about breaking bad. Way to go totally missing the point.. The point that the whole of humanity is not one homogeneous and agreeing entity. There are actually varying interests, some interests are also smaller than others. If you want to have the mentality of always making your thing the most popular, then you can definitely do that but by doing so you are going to turn it into something you don't want in the first place. The argument is that what would be the point of going out of your way to beat another game in popularity a game that most rts fans don't even want to play just to end up turning your own game more into that. If you were to do all of the things you need to do to make sc2 as appealing to casuals as LoL is then I sure as hell won't be around playing anymore, and I bet most competitive rts fans won't either.
People are suggesting ways to make SC2 more popular to casuals WITHOUT changing the core gameplay. Things like adding skins, making the game f2p and paying for the campaign or custom maps, changing the custom game interface, etc. Nobody is suggesting that SC2 needs to be made easier for casuals.
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On October 24 2012 13:02 Oiseaux wrote:
BTW idra's insult hardly compares to Destiny's. TBH, Destiny walked himself right into that statement from idra with the responses he was giving tonight, in way a that the response can be construed as both a legitimate statement and an insult.
to be honest judging from the comments here I thought incontrol/Idra were going to be WAY worse then what I heard. Jesus Destiny was by far the one being emotional, yelling over everyone never stopping repeating the same thing over and over again and always interrupting, screaming, cussing. like wow I seriously expected incontrol/idra to act way worse then they did.
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On October 24 2012 13:02 MaestroSC wrote:
Anyone who isnt a dumbass, can see that stream numbers are down for SC2, whereas LoL is breaking records with every new event going on.
Compare the LoL World Championship with... anything so far in esports... nothing has come even close.
It's silly for Destiny to expect anything real from the show tho.... EGiNcontroL and Idra... are both aprt of the same team, and part of the scene that is going to defend it to the last man, because they are overpaid clowns benefitting off of sponsors being ignorant to the fact that SC2 is dying... they need people to NOT realize that SC2 as a game is a VERY poor design with huge gaping flaws, and with more coming in the xpac..... cant expect people who make a living off of this ONE game... to Tell everyone that the game is dying...
Once again, LoL growing =/= SC2 dying.
If this is a dead game then I'm ok with SC2 being dead.
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On October 24 2012 13:00 Dark.Carnival wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 11:14 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:12 Leth0 wrote:
Destiny having a fucking meltdown on his stream. Yelling at a DJwheat (that is not there) to suck his dick over the fact that DJwheat actually works for Twitch and can easily see that their viewer numbers (for everything) is on the rise.
To be clear, I'm not even watching his stream, I was tuned into the morrow stream and overhear his petty whiney bullshit. viewers are up for twitch because LoL came into the picture Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant. The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw Down in what way, per individual event? Maybe. But there is so much content that the numbers are way more spread out and people won't watch everything. There's almost always a tournament going on every weekend, on top of the regular content throughout the week. Then there's major events like MLG that occur every few months, and then there's community content and streams. We don't see the same numbers that LoL or even Dota2 get for every event but we have so many events and so much content that it's impossible to say whether viewership is lower or not. It's also unreasonable to compare to different games/genres in viewership. SC2 is not dying, maybe it's not growing as fast as it was but it still has a healthy fan base and people still attend all the events. Blizzard can do more to help it grow more, so can the community. Being all doom and gloom isn't a smart way to try and improve the scene for SC2 or any other game.
There is about the same amount of tournaments as last year. Viewerships are down. It's impossible to say by how much though. BUt I think it's between 30-50%:
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never felt like idra/incontrol were disagreeing with destiny on any of the major points. found him really annoying just yelling for no reason really.
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On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:54 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 11:14 colossusFTW wrote:[quote] viewers are up for twitch because LoL came into the picture Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant. The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful. Once again, twitch's numbers are up. He said nothing about SC2's numbers.
Just because IdrA's numbers, as an example, are down it doesn't mean that SC2's numbers are way down. IdrA is just less relevant than he was back when WoL first came out. Back then he was consider a major player in the western esports scene, I watched him all the time but I haven't watched him in ages since he doesn't do anything innovative and he's not relevant in the scene, and he's not a particularly entertaining streamer. More SC2 streamers = more divided audience. If Stephano and IdrA are streaming at the same time I can't pay attention to both so I only watch one or the other, the more popular player or the player with the best stream between the two is going to have the most viewers and since there is viewer overlap that's going to result in a dip for one of those two streamers.
That's just one example, now multiply that by a bit and you can see what happened. Back when I started watching SC2 streams I didn't have that many options for the kind of stream that I enjoy, but RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT there are SEVEN StarCraft 2 streamers that I like streaming, FOUR street fighter 4 streamers, and SIX people streaming various other games with entertaining streams. Those are just the streams that I'm subscribed to. Obviously I can't watch all of those at one time.
Also remember the Korean player Rainbow? When he first started streaming he had so many viewers, but a few months after he stopped being relevant he was lucky if he had 100. That's just the nature of spectators. They're fickle. If Stephano were to stop being competitive I'd stop watching him, because while I like him I only watch his stream because he's relevant in the game.
Worst case scenario is that the number of SC2 viewers has stagnated, as in the viewer #s aren't growing, and they're spread out across more streams than ever. There has been nothing at all to indicate that numbers for SC2 have taken a nose dive. At all.
On October 24 2012 13:05 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 13:00 Dark.Carnival wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:On October 24 2012 11:14 colossusFTW wrote:[quote] viewers are up for twitch because LoL came into the picture Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant. The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw Down in what way, per individual event? Maybe. But there is so much content that the numbers are way more spread out and people won't watch everything. There's almost always a tournament going on every weekend, on top of the regular content throughout the week. Then there's major events like MLG that occur every few months, and then there's community content and streams. We don't see the same numbers that LoL or even Dota2 get for every event but we have so many events and so much content that it's impossible to say whether viewership is lower or not. It's also unreasonable to compare to different games/genres in viewership. SC2 is not dying, maybe it's not growing as fast as it was but it still has a healthy fan base and people still attend all the events. Blizzard can do more to help it grow more, so can the community. Being all doom and gloom isn't a smart way to try and improve the scene for SC2 or any other game. There is about the same amount of tournaments as last year. Viewerships are down. It's impossible to say by how much though. BUt I think it's between 30-50%:
What's that based on? Because there is definitely more content right now than there was last year. What is your 30-50% number based on? Anything?
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I'd just like to comment on djWHEAT's ridiculous analogy with Breaking Bad and Idol. Saying that lower viewership for a cable show than for a network show is in any way, shape, or form related to two eSports available FOR FREE ON THE INTERNET. There are no barriers to actually opening one tournament stream over the other. Viewership is entirely about the product. So Marcus pulling the TV show argument out of his ass was completely unnecessary and irrelevant.
I absolutely disagree with this doomsday prediction Destiny seems to have voiced with the SC2 scene, but if Blizzard isn't listening to us about all the shit they should be doing, we need to shout it louder. And say what you will, but sensationalizing it just a wee bit certainly got Blizz' attention.
The only problem with the way we as fans campaign: we scream like babies for a new pair of shoes, Blizzard tells us we're pretty and that they're gonna buy us the nice shoes, and we just shut up. Maybe if we stopped letting them string us along on all of the shit we want from them, and started acting like we actually care, as people who want their friends to play and get into this game, they'd start to give a damn. 'Cause I agree with Destiny and Taylor that them actually getting their thumbs out of their asses on LAN and lobby layout is far-and-away the best thing for SC2 to grow.
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On October 24 2012 13:02 MaestroSC wrote:
Anyone who isnt a dumbass, can see that stream numbers are down for SC2, whereas LoL is breaking records with every new event going on.
Compare the LoL World Championship with... anything so far in esports... nothing has come even close.
It's silly for Destiny to expect anything real from the show tho.... EGiNcontroL and Idra... are both aprt of the same team, and part of the scene that is going to defend it to the last man, because they are overpaid clowns benefitting off of sponsors being ignorant to the fact that SC2 is dying... they need people to NOT realize that SC2 as a game is a VERY poor design with huge gaping flaws, and with more coming in the xpac..... cant expect people who make a living off of this ONE game... to Tell everyone that the game is dying...
Wow, how can you be so stupid to think that people who have their living DEPEND on the game, would intentionally sit idle by while it was dying. Are you fucking serious? Everyone who keep stating that views are obviously down need to start providing actual data to support a trend of dropping views. There are always peaks and highs in views and there are natural trends, when all variables are factored in there appears to be no reason to assume that views are going down.
That LoL WC is breaking records in views does not change sc2 views btw. If sc2 views for example are stagnant and LoL views are rising that does not make sc2 views drop, they are still just as stagnant.
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Im sorry but how is everyone complaining about wheat/idra/incontrol. Idra and incontrol were agreeing and being calm with destiny. While destiny was being very emotional and interrupting everyone constantly, yet they are the immature ones. Sure shit got outta hand at the end. Pretty silly to blow this up a lot more then it even seemed.
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On October 24 2012 13:06 kvn4444 wrote:
never felt like idra/incontrol were disagreeing with destiny on any of the major points. found him really annoying just yelling for no reason really.
it's more that they got lost in destiny's brood war tongue bathing/casual player generalizing and never got to really expand upon the ultimate point that destiny's approach does absolutely nothing of interest. people know that you can bait casuals by blatantly stealing microtransactional practices from LoL, and they know that blizzard has made mistakes; unfortunately, that was his entire argument, and it does nothing but spin its wheels. I think the iTG crew identified this quite accurately, but got lost in incontrol/djwheat butthurt, which is a shame since they both had valid points that lose their power when shrieked at the top of one's lungs.
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On October 24 2012 13:07 MVega wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:56 Duravi wrote:On October 24 2012 12:54 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 12:45 Hider wrote:On October 24 2012 11:38 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:26 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:25 VanGarde wrote:On October 24 2012 11:24 kinglemon wrote:On October 24 2012 11:19 colossusFTW wrote:On October 24 2012 11:15 Leth0 wrote:
[quote]
Viewers are up because all the games. What is with this idea that LoL is the only thing that matters? It's cool that you like LoL but don't be fucking ignorant.
The NFL isn't going anywhere just because soccer is the largest sport on the globe. im just saying it's irrelevant dj wheat saying numbers are up on twitch. Im saying numbers are up on twitch because of LoL. REMEMBER WHEN IDRA GOT 8-10 K VIEWERS ADAY? now he gets barely 3 k he even had over 20k at some points. Yeah, back in beta when there were not 10 tournaments running every week and a multitude of people streaming, not to mention that most people couldn't play themselves at that point. There are no less sc2 fans, there is just way more possibility these days to pick the tournaments that fit your schedule and there are more streamers. not in beta, last year. I won't respond that that explicitly because I do not recall IdrA having 20k stable viewers at any point where there were multiple good foreigner zergs. IdrA used to stream way less than now, he was in the gsl code s, he was the only notable foreigner zerg and a foreigner fanfavorite. The bottom line is however that taking one players stream count and comparing it between now and a year or two years ago does not tell you anything more than that this person now has less viewers than before. Which is a meaningless comparisom if the point is to illustrate that something is wrong with the game. The only way to get useful data would be to have long term sc2 viewer stats for all streams and tournaments. Then being able to average the result and even out any unnatural spikes. One thing is for sure, Destiny does not have those stats. The only person who has any kind of credible access to numbers like that is Wheat, and he says the game is fine. I have to listen to what the guy with the numbers is saying. wait are people actually trying to deny that viewerships are down? THIS IS INSANE. Of coure they are down, and quite a lot. what exact number does wheat have? btw He works for twitch.tv.. The question is what numbers do YOU have since it is so laughable to you that person with actual data is saying that the game is NOT shrinking in terms of viewers. Taking a stream like IdrA's and saying he had more players at time x and now he has less so the community is shrinking is no where near meaningful. Once again, twitch's numbers are up. He said nothing about SC2's numbers. Just because IdrA's numbers, as an example, are down it doesn't mean that SC2's numbers are way down. IdrA is just less relevant than he was back when WoL first came out. Back then he was consider a major player in the western esports scene, I watched him all the time but I haven't watched him in ages since he doesn't do anything innovative and he's not relevant in the scene, and he's not a particularly entertaining streamer. More SC2 streamers = more divided audience. If Stephano and IdrA are streaming at the same time I can't pay attention to both so I only watch one or the other, the more popular player or the player with the best stream between the two is going to have the most viewers and since there is viewer overlap that's going to result in a dip for one of those two streamers. That's just one example, now multiply that by a bit and you can see what happened. Back when I started watching SC2 streams I didn't have that many options for the kind of stream that I enjoy, but RIGHT AT THIS MOMENT there are SEVEN StarCraft 2 streamers that I like streaming, FOUR street fighter 4 streamers, and SIX people streaming various other games with entertaining streams. Those are just the streams that I'm subscribed to. Obviously I can't watch all of those at one time. Also remember the Korean player Rainbow? When he first started streaming he had so many viewers, but a few months after he stopped being relevant he was lucky if he had 100. That's just the nature of spectators. They're fickle. If Stephano were to stop being competitive I'd stop watching him, because while I like him I only watch his stream because he's relevant in the game. Worst case scenario is that the number of SC2 viewers has stagnated, as in the viewer #s aren't growing, and they're spread out across more streams than ever. There has been nothing at all to indicate that numbers for SC2 have taken a nose dive. At all.
Your timeframe is jsut off. You think back like two years. Try and think back 12-15 months when Sc2 peaked. Back then there were roughly same amount of tournamnets, same amount of streamers (perhaps even more), and everyone had much higer stream numbers (not just idra, basically everyone).
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On October 24 2012 13:00 VanGarde wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 12:56 rysecake wrote:On October 24 2012 12:41 RezJ wrote:On October 24 2012 12:36 Fionn wrote:
For SC2 to become the most popular e-sport, most of you will come to hate it.
This is the same forum that wanted to murder Blizzard for having worker counts on the capital buildings. This is just Wheat's Breaking Bad vs. American Idol argument all over again. In SC2's case there are ways to improve the user experience without compromising the quality of the product, or in other words, bring in the noobs without killing esports. the tv show thing was pure stupid. "what's the better show?" well lets try not asking a group of males in their 20's. Middle aged people and young teenage girls couldn't give 2 shits about breaking bad. Way to go totally missing the point.. The point that the whole of humanity is not one homogeneous and agreeing entity. There are actually varying interests, some interests are also smaller than others. If you want to have the mentality of always making your thing the most popular, then you can definitely do that but by doing so you are going to turn it into something you don't want in the first place. The argument is that what would be the point of going out of your way to beat another game in popularity a game that most rts fans don't even want to play just to end up turning your own game more into that. If you were to do all of the things you need to do to make sc2 as appealing to casuals as LoL is then I sure as hell won't be around playing anymore, and I bet most competitive rts fans won't either.
I didn't like the analogy because imo it went againt Wheat's points. Even if American Idol is the shittier show, it brings (brought* since American Idol is basically dead and scrapping for viewers: see Mariah Carey vs Nikki Minaj "drama") more viewership and more money which is what Riot is doing. So I don't get it? Congrats SC2, you're Breaking Bad, but you get less viewers than American Idol, which is one of the points of Destiny's thesis?
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EPT
