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"How do you see an opening with a warp prism and 4 DTs"
Seriously, it's not that hard when all zerg builds are involving a quick 3rd and "an opening" consist of any base that only has one spore.
If you can't find it, you just retreat and you have a prism with 4 DTs in it. You can defend, you can drop them if the zerg pushes, it is useful. Which is not the case of current builds "I'l make a proxy pylon, warp 3 DTs, they'll get raped and I'll tech to anything else so the whole tech tree is useless now"
I don't know, I don't see it as gimmicky play, even tho I can understand that you think it is.
I think it's more solid than the fast useless DT builds we currently see, those are gimmicky imo, it hits later but also force a real response and not "I'll just build a spore and ruin your build lol".
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Wow that whole incontrol / idra argument was so retarded considering you are like 3 clicks away from opening the amazing liquipedia 2 code A or S page with brackets results and pretty much anything you could want to know about the tournament to form your statistics arguments.
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On September 28 2011 09:37 Whitewing wrote:
We should just get Goatlust as an official Inside the Game host and have him there for the entire show, shooting the shit.
Yeah I was going to write this. Goatlust, get a webcam and be there for the entire show next week. 
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That was hard to listen to during the balance conversation. IdrA pretty much backed up what he said with ingame examples and analysis and Geoff kept reverting to 'statistics' of code S. Meanwhile the stats in code S are insignificantly small, there have been what 3 or 4 ZvPs? And the games were really not very good, hongun etc.
Argument seemed to heated emotionally from incontrol, maybe he's clinging to P being bad to justify his results.
edit: 1 kangaroo, 2 kangaroo.. roflllllllllllll. oh man.
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So when is the episode from last night being uploaded?
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Why not Demuslim instead of Painuser ?
I don't dislike Painuser, but I think he has a problem in those kind of shows. He often doesn't get the point of the discussion and then proceed to derail it.
"Did the immortal buff helped vs 111"
->proceed to just explain why one range is better in general, like he was discussing the patch notes, which has nothing to do with the question. (the fact that he derails then makes incontrol answer to painuser and not to the primary, interesting question)
"What about PvZ and PvT ?"
->"Well, PvP is..."
And so no discussion about the interesting PvZ and PvT and a boring PvP discussion.
I post that because it's not the first time that I notice that, but previously I just thought that he didn't hear the question correctly. Wheat, perhaps you can try to subtly adress those protoss question to incontrol so he answer those before Painuser derails everything to oblivion. (it seems obvious that they're destined to incontrol, but painuser doesn't care about that, he answers everything xD)
(but glad you insisted on some derailed questions, you did a good job about that yesterday)
Was a good show despite what my complaining could let think =)
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I don't get it, if all protoss are stupid and don't know how to play except for a couple of Koreans, what the fuck is Idras problem? He's not in GSL competing against them and to my knowledge he hasn't run in to JYP or Sage in any tournaments.
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Thanks, was watching Blip.tv
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On September 29 2011 03:03 Longshank wrote:
I don't get it, if all protoss are stupid and don't know how to play except for a couple of Koreans, what the fuck is Idras problem? He's not in GSL competing against them and to my knowledge he hasn't run in to JYP or Sage in any tournaments.
I don't get it too, I mean idra still says that ZvP is ok but protoss are losing to terrans, while the numbers are like 40% for PvT and 30% for PvZ. Protoss are just not doing well vs everyrace, I don't know how idra could dispute that.
By the way, liquipedia is here, and GOM TV has now a record page
http://www.gomtv.net/records/playerInfo.gom
where you can set some filters and get matchup statistics, like Doko said. Don't know why they discussed with "I think that the winrate is...", "No, I think it's".. when they could settle this in 30 seconds.
Next time incontrol just bring a file and pwn idra ! :D
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On September 29 2011 03:17 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 03:03 Longshank wrote:
I don't get it, if all protoss are stupid and don't know how to play except for a couple of Koreans, what the fuck is Idras problem? He's not in GSL competing against them and to my knowledge he hasn't run in to JYP or Sage in any tournaments. I don't get it too, I mean idra still says that ZvP is ok but protoss are losing to terrans, while the numbers are like 40% for PvT and 30% for PvZ. Protoss are just not doing well, %I don't know how idra could dispute that. By the way, liquipedia is here, and GOM TV has now a record page http://www.gomtv.net/records/playerInfo.gomwhere you can set some filters and get matchup statistics, like Doko said. Don't know why they discussed with "I think that the winrate is...", "No, I think it's".. when they could settle this in 30 seconds. Next time incontrol just bring a file and pwn idra ! :D
For this month's GSL, PvZ is at 48.5% whilst PvT is at 36.8%. The sample size is tiny so this should have no bearing on balance discussion but to say Protoss are losing every game, or Protoss are losing left and right to Zerg is flat out wrong. In fact, the actual match results are pointing towards Idra's favour. When you watch any match pvz, do you ever feel, 'wow Tassadar is outplaying SUPERSTAR so much but ZvP is imba so the game isn't actually close.' Someone should give me an example or situation where Protoss looks so ridiculously weak vs Zerg that a Protoss who is outplaying a Zerg in every way is losing simply due to balance. I am actually happy with ZvP because when I watch it, I feel like the player who played better won. 1/1/1 doesn't give me this effect. When I see Hongun lose to losira, I don't think 'lol P so weak, even Losira can beat Protoss', I think 'Losira is a superior player to Hongun.'
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On September 29 2011 03:17 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 03:03 Longshank wrote:
I don't get it, if all protoss are stupid and don't know how to play except for a couple of Koreans, what the fuck is Idras problem? He's not in GSL competing against them and to my knowledge he hasn't run in to JYP or Sage in any tournaments. I don't get it too, I mean idra still says that ZvP is ok but protoss are losing to terrans, while the numbers are like 40% for PvT and 30% for PvZ. Protoss are just not doing well vs everyrace, I don't know how idra could dispute that. By the way, liquipedia is here, and GOM TV has now a record page http://www.gomtv.net/records/playerInfo.gomwhere you can set some filters and get matchup statistics, like Doko said. Don't know why they discussed with "I think that the winrate is...", "No, I think it's".. when they could settle this in 30 seconds. Next time incontrol just bring a file and pwn idra ! :D
maybe you should run those stats.
GSL (code A/S) for the entire 2011 year is 51.5% Z favored with less than 100 games played (pretty small).
GSL October Code A/S (the main argument of the show) is 58.8% Z favored with a staggering 10W, 7L, for 17 games played (lol).
Now that you have the 'stats' you have to look deeper at matchups, maps, players etc., which IdrA was attempting to do and was successful at doing. Hongun accounts for 2 of those loses from terrible play. The 'numbers' for GSL oct are insignificant.
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Yeah I'm still with GSL August, which were the stats I still had in mind.
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upload mp3 please <3
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On September 29 2011 03:28 Micket wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 03:17 MrCon wrote:On September 29 2011 03:03 Longshank wrote:
I don't get it, if all protoss are stupid and don't know how to play except for a couple of Koreans, what the fuck is Idras problem? He's not in GSL competing against them and to my knowledge he hasn't run in to JYP or Sage in any tournaments. I don't get it too, I mean idra still says that ZvP is ok but protoss are losing to terrans, while the numbers are like 40% for PvT and 30% for PvZ. Protoss are just not doing well, %I don't know how idra could dispute that. By the way, liquipedia is here, and GOM TV has now a record page http://www.gomtv.net/records/playerInfo.gomwhere you can set some filters and get matchup statistics, like Doko said. Don't know why they discussed with "I think that the winrate is...", "No, I think it's".. when they could settle this in 30 seconds. Next time incontrol just bring a file and pwn idra ! :D For this month's GSL, PvZ is at 48.5% whilst PvT is at 36.8%. The sample size is tiny so this should have no bearing on balance discussion but to say Protoss are losing every game, or Protoss are losing left and right to Zerg is flat out wrong. In fact, the actual match results are pointing towards Idra's favour. When you watch any match pvz, do you ever feel, 'wow Tassadar is outplaying SUPERSTAR so much but ZvP is imba so the game isn't actually close.' Someone should give me an example or situation where Protoss looks so ridiculously weak vs Zerg that a Protoss who is outplaying a Zerg in every way is losing simply due to balance. I am actually happy with ZvP because when I watch it, I feel like the player who played better won. 1/1/1 doesn't give me this effect. When I see Hongun lose to losira, I don't think 'lol P so weak, even Losira can beat Protoss', I think 'Losira is a superior player to Hongun.'
This is pretty much how I feel about it. The better player has been winning the matchup. In the Code S situation, it just so happens that Code S (IMO) represents the best Zergs and Terrans in the world, but not the best Protosses in the world. Protoss are 1-3 in Code S this season, and in all 3 of those losses, the Zerg was definitely favored. Not because Zerg is OP, but because the Zergs are just better players. I know the sample sucks obv, but it at least illustrates that citing GSL was a bad idea.
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Goatlust's question was funny as hell. Really cracked me up!
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On September 29 2011 03:42 templar rage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 03:28 Micket wrote:On September 29 2011 03:17 MrCon wrote:On September 29 2011 03:03 Longshank wrote:
I don't get it, if all protoss are stupid and don't know how to play except for a couple of Koreans, what the fuck is Idras problem? He's not in GSL competing against them and to my knowledge he hasn't run in to JYP or Sage in any tournaments. I don't get it too, I mean idra still says that ZvP is ok but protoss are losing to terrans, while the numbers are like 40% for PvT and 30% for PvZ. Protoss are just not doing well, %I don't know how idra could dispute that. By the way, liquipedia is here, and GOM TV has now a record page http://www.gomtv.net/records/playerInfo.gomwhere you can set some filters and get matchup statistics, like Doko said. Don't know why they discussed with "I think that the winrate is...", "No, I think it's".. when they could settle this in 30 seconds. Next time incontrol just bring a file and pwn idra ! :D For this month's GSL, PvZ is at 48.5% whilst PvT is at 36.8%. The sample size is tiny so this should have no bearing on balance discussion but to say Protoss are losing every game, or Protoss are losing left and right to Zerg is flat out wrong. In fact, the actual match results are pointing towards Idra's favour. When you watch any match pvz, do you ever feel, 'wow Tassadar is outplaying SUPERSTAR so much but ZvP is imba so the game isn't actually close.' Someone should give me an example or situation where Protoss looks so ridiculously weak vs Zerg that a Protoss who is outplaying a Zerg in every way is losing simply due to balance. I am actually happy with ZvP because when I watch it, I feel like the player who played better won. 1/1/1 doesn't give me this effect. When I see Hongun lose to losira, I don't think 'lol P so weak, even Losira can beat Protoss', I think 'Losira is a superior player to Hongun.' This is pretty much how I feel about it. The better player has been winning the matchup. In the Code S situation, it just so happens that Code S (IMO) represents the best Zergs and Terrans in the world, but not the best Protosses in the world. Protoss are 1-3 in Code S this season, and in all 3 of those losses, the Zerg was definitely favored. Not because Zerg is OP, but because the Zergs are just better players. I know the sample sucks obv, but it at least illustrates that citing GSL was a bad idea.
It's indeed a too small sample size but all numbers we have points to PvZ being a rather balanced match-up.
Idra's been whining for a long time now that that ZvP is a broken matchup in P's favor and that he can't win vs 'decent' players. Idra should ask himself why he keeps losing to these 'decent' players while other zergs do not.
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IdrA said it himself : he can't handle turtle play from Terran or Protoss. That is his own weakness, which also concides with Zerg's weakness as a race : Zerg is weak against turtle style in the late game. I am not sure if there is any Sc2 player in the world who would dispute that, right?
Zerg probably just needs a slightly better way of cracking open that shell of siege tanks and gateways. If the Nydus wasn't such a big joke, or if Overlord drops came free with the Speed, or Hydras/Corrupters weren't so weak, maybe that would already be it. Until then IdrA has to learn to handle his personal weakness together with that of his race.
Also Tails, an absolute unknown, killed MVP and Nestea, arguably the best players in the world, in the team league, so protoss as a race is obviously doing just fine. Those were pretty decent games, too, nothing too cheesy.
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I like how idra kept talking about code A toss doing well vs zerg when zerg has a slightly better win ratio in ZvP in this month's code A.
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On September 29 2011 04:56 Ripper41 wrote:
I like how idra kept talking about code A toss doing well vs zerg when zerg has the better win ratio in ZvP in this month's code A.
The only reason he mentioned code A toss doing well is because Incontrol kept going back to the point that we should look at statistics. Idra thinks that statistics shouldnt be what balance is based on, he instead wants to the game to be balanced based on gameplay. I think idra's method for balancing makes much more sense than incontrol's. If you looked at statistics in broodwar over a small period of time (1-2 months), they could show one race dominating another, but thats just because of metagame shift. I think one think incontrol doesnt seem to take into consideration is that the ZvP metagame has dramatically shifted, zergs have adapted to handle the all-ins and various forms of harass. Protoss' however, have yet to change their gameplay. Which is why idra keeps stating that protoss players are playing stupidly. Protoss players (like Hongun, and even MC to some extent) keep using the same strategies (opening with harass, then completely switching tech path) despite continually losing.
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EPT
