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On September 28 2011 09:36 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 28 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:
IdrA has convinced me. Protoss players are fucking trash. I mean, they lose, so they must be right?
Edit: And they make DTs, those fools. too an extent i agree with him as I have been far more impressed with the play of JYP, Oz and Sage than the Code S protoss players this seasons. only in that regard though. the rest of what he was saying... even if they are more impressive, if those protoss were in code S; they wouldn't be as successful as they are in code A. We have seen Oz play for awhile, he may have improved but I'm doubtful his play is dominating now. JYP and Sage are good but I doubt they would make a splash in code S. Performance in code A does not equal how they will fare in code S.
id say its just as hard to stay in code A as code S. any differential in skill is cancelled out by the increased difficulty of staying in the league, so anyone in code A repeatedly is gonna be just as good as people from code s
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I really enjoyed the show tonight and im an European but thought it was funny.
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On September 28 2011 09:36 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 28 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:
IdrA has convinced me. Protoss players are fucking trash. I mean, they lose, so they must be right?
Edit: And they make DTs, those fools. too an extent i agree with him as I have been far more impressed with the play of JYP, Oz and Sage than the Code S protoss players this seasons. only in that regard though. the rest of what he was saying... even if they are more impressive, if those protoss were in code S; they wouldn't be as successful as they are in code A. We have seen Oz play for awhile, he may have improved but I'm doubtful his play is dominating now. JYP and Sage are good but I doubt they would make a splash in code S. Performance in code A does not equal how they will fare in code S.
I disagree. Especially about Oz. I picked against Oz each round so far, not because I think he is bad, but I just didn't think he would win. Each match I have been pleasantly surprised at how well he plays. No one thought he was going to beat Boxer to get into Code A too. And what have we seen from Oz earlier to say he isn't that good? Because it took a few tries to get into Code A? He hasn't really been playing in a ton of tournaments.
I absolutely do not think the combination of JYP, Sage and Oz would go 0-6 in group stage like Puzzle, HongUn and Genius did.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On September 28 2011 09:37 Holykitty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:36 illsick wrote:On September 28 2011 09:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 28 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:
IdrA has convinced me. Protoss players are fucking trash. I mean, they lose, so they must be right?
Edit: And they make DTs, those fools. too an extent i agree with him as I have been far more impressed with the play of JYP, Oz and Sage than the Code S protoss players this seasons. only in that regard though. the rest of what he was saying... even if they are more impressive, if those protoss were in code S; they wouldn't be as successful as they are in code A. We have seen Oz play for awhile, he may have improved but I'm doubtful his play is dominating now. JYP and Sage are good but I doubt they would make a splash in code S. Performance in code A does not equal how they will fare in code S. id say its just as hard to stay in code A as code S. any differential in skill is cancelled out by the increased difficulty of staying in the league, so anyone in code A repeatedly is gonna be just as good as people from code s
so I guess you think that sage or Oz could make it to the round of 4 in code S :/
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On September 28 2011 09:44 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:37 Holykitty wrote:On September 28 2011 09:36 illsick wrote:On September 28 2011 09:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 28 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:
IdrA has convinced me. Protoss players are fucking trash. I mean, they lose, so they must be right?
Edit: And they make DTs, those fools. too an extent i agree with him as I have been far more impressed with the play of JYP, Oz and Sage than the Code S protoss players this seasons. only in that regard though. the rest of what he was saying... even if they are more impressive, if those protoss were in code S; they wouldn't be as successful as they are in code A. We have seen Oz play for awhile, he may have improved but I'm doubtful his play is dominating now. JYP and Sage are good but I doubt they would make a splash in code S. Performance in code A does not equal how they will fare in code S. id say its just as hard to stay in code A as code S. any differential in skill is cancelled out by the increased difficulty of staying in the league, so anyone in code A repeatedly is gonna be just as good as people from code s so I guess you think that sage or Oz could make it to the round of 4 in code S :/
where did i say that?
when i said stay in code s, you somehow read that as almost win the whole thing?
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On September 28 2011 09:43 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:36 illsick wrote:On September 28 2011 09:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 28 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:
IdrA has convinced me. Protoss players are fucking trash. I mean, they lose, so they must be right?
Edit: And they make DTs, those fools. too an extent i agree with him as I have been far more impressed with the play of JYP, Oz and Sage than the Code S protoss players this seasons. only in that regard though. the rest of what he was saying... even if they are more impressive, if those protoss were in code S; they wouldn't be as successful as they are in code A. We have seen Oz play for awhile, he may have improved but I'm doubtful his play is dominating now. JYP and Sage are good but I doubt they would make a splash in code S. Performance in code A does not equal how they will fare in code S. I disagree. Especially about Oz. I picked against Oz each round so far, not because I think he is bad, but I just didn't think he would win. Each match I have been pleasantly surprised at how well he plays. No one thought he was going to beat Boxer to get into Code A too. And what have we seen from Oz earlier to say he isn't that good? Because it took a few tries to get into Code A? He hasn't really been playing in a ton of tournaments. I absolutely do not think the combination of JYP, Sage and Oz would go 0-6 in group stage like Puzzle, HongUn and Genius did.
He played some in GSTL and also played in a MLG (and korean weekly's it seems). He's good but not amazing or the protoss innovator/hope. IdrA basically is saying to look at all the protoss left in code A to indicate that they are doing fine as a race. Code S should be the tournament to look at as a reference to balance not Code A, the lesser tournament of the two.
Let's see, Hongun had to play July and Losira... I think it's probable that either of those protoss would lose both games there. Genius had to play Happy (who did the 1-1-1 on meta) and jjakji. Yeah, maybe JYP or Sage could possibly advance from that group but that's not even a guarantee.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On September 28 2011 09:58 Holykitty wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:44 illsick wrote:On September 28 2011 09:37 Holykitty wrote:On September 28 2011 09:36 illsick wrote:On September 28 2011 09:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 28 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:
IdrA has convinced me. Protoss players are fucking trash. I mean, they lose, so they must be right?
Edit: And they make DTs, those fools. too an extent i agree with him as I have been far more impressed with the play of JYP, Oz and Sage than the Code S protoss players this seasons. only in that regard though. the rest of what he was saying... even if they are more impressive, if those protoss were in code S; they wouldn't be as successful as they are in code A. We have seen Oz play for awhile, he may have improved but I'm doubtful his play is dominating now. JYP and Sage are good but I doubt they would make a splash in code S. Performance in code A does not equal how they will fare in code S. id say its just as hard to stay in code A as code S. any differential in skill is cancelled out by the increased difficulty of staying in the league, so anyone in code A repeatedly is gonna be just as good as people from code s so I guess you think that sage or Oz could make it to the round of 4 in code S :/ where did i say that? when i said stay in code s, you somehow read that as almost win the whole thing?
if the skill level is so equal from code A to code S, it would mean that Sage and Oz could make to round of 4 in code S too right?
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any1 knows the european ladderaccount of incontrol?
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Can anyone please direct me to the archives ? today episode up ?
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On September 28 2011 10:07 DiaBoLuS wrote:
any1 knows the european ladderaccount of incontrol?
Pretty sure he said the ID was 'Redeemer'.
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On September 28 2011 10:00 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:58 Holykitty wrote:On September 28 2011 09:44 illsick wrote:On September 28 2011 09:37 Holykitty wrote:On September 28 2011 09:36 illsick wrote:On September 28 2011 09:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 28 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:
IdrA has convinced me. Protoss players are fucking trash. I mean, they lose, so they must be right?
Edit: And they make DTs, those fools. too an extent i agree with him as I have been far more impressed with the play of JYP, Oz and Sage than the Code S protoss players this seasons. only in that regard though. the rest of what he was saying... even if they are more impressive, if those protoss were in code S; they wouldn't be as successful as they are in code A. We have seen Oz play for awhile, he may have improved but I'm doubtful his play is dominating now. JYP and Sage are good but I doubt they would make a splash in code S. Performance in code A does not equal how they will fare in code S. id say its just as hard to stay in code A as code S. any differential in skill is cancelled out by the increased difficulty of staying in the league, so anyone in code A repeatedly is gonna be just as good as people from code s so I guess you think that sage or Oz could make it to the round of 4 in code S :/ where did i say that? when i said stay in code s, you somehow read that as almost win the whole thing? if the skill level is so equal from code A to code S, it would mean that Sage and Oz could make to round of 4 in code S too right?
could isnt the same as will. theres a large cross over in skill and they have the possibility to go far, but im not gonna jump out and say they will go ro4 in code s, or even ro4 repeatedly in code a. its tough to get that far in both divisions.
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On September 28 2011 10:32 Sarang wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:07 DiaBoLuS wrote:
any1 knows the european ladderaccount of incontrol? Pretty sure he said the ID was 'Redeemer'.
noone in eu master or GM called redeemer
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I got the account yesterday sheesh gimme a few days!
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Usually I like Incontrol but today I just didn't agree with him. We all know Idra likes to whine and has very standard excuses for everything that doesn't fit his views. Protoss winning? Protoss imba. Zerg winning? Protoss do dumb shit. Good Protoss beat bad Zerg? Protoss op. Good Zerg beat bad Protoss? No one on Protoss is on level of Losira and Nestea.
Today, Incontrol made basically the exact same comments but in a less direct aggressive way, which made him the exact thing he criticised Greg for. Protoss winning? Look at the Zergs they were playing. Protoss losing? Protoss is absolutely terrible and cannot beat Zerg. You take your 3rd and 50 roaches arrive and you can do nothing about it. He ignored JYP, Sage and Oz and focussed on Hero, saying he is 'the best Protoss in the world', and then saying he lost vs Zerg therefore P is UP. Hero has lost a Bo1 IPLTA game online, lost 2-1 to Yugioh through cheese (watch those games, seriously), and lost 2-0 to Losira for not scouting a Nydus and going DTs which did no damage. Idra talked about Hero perfectly, mentioning his weak midgame which Sage and others didn't have.
Incontrol also said 'what about Code S a lot' to counter Protoss success in Code A. In Code S, Protoss have lost 2 PvZs and won 1. The 2 were Hongun vs July and Hongun vs Losira. Judging these games as a metric of balance is ludicrous, and to say Hongun's play was better than JYP or Sage just because he was in Code S is wrong. Incontrol tried to use statistics, but clearly the sample size is too small and anything post patch is clearly ridiculous to use. He talked about how there were only 5 Protosses in code S, but there are only 7 zergs also. Ro16 is probably gonna have 0 Protoss, but this is clearly due to Terran rather than Zerg. Only 1 Protoss has lost due to Zerg and the other 3 have lost due to Terran. Zergs that have made it through have made by being able to defeat Terran, not Protoss (except Losira). Zerg may be able to defeat Terran whilst Protoss can't (this I definitely agree with) but to use these 'stats' to judge PvZ is silly.
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On September 28 2011 10:44 iNcontroL wrote:
I got the account yesterday sheesh gimme a few days!
casual
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On September 28 2011 10:44 iNcontroL wrote:
I got the account yesterday sheesh gimme a few days!
guess i found it 
ppl need to realize that it takes 30+ games in any case to get into master with a fresh account...
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On September 28 2011 10:46 Micket wrote:
Usually I like Incontrol but today I just didn't agree with him. We all know Idra likes to whine and has very standard excuses for everything that doesn't fit his views. Protoss winning? Protoss imba. Zerg winning? Protoss do dumb shit. Good Protoss beat bad Zerg? Protoss op. Good Zerg beat bad Protoss? No one on Protoss is on level of Losira and Nestea.
Today, Incontrol made basically the exact same comments but in a less direct aggressive way, which made him the exact thing he criticised Greg for. Protoss winning? Look at the Zergs they were playing. Protoss losing? Protoss is absolutely terrible and cannot beat Zerg. You take your 3rd and 50 roaches arrive and you can do nothing about it. He ignored JYP, Sage and Oz and focussed on Hero, saying he is 'the best Protoss in the world', and then saying he lost vs Zerg therefore P is UP. Hero has lost a Bo1 IPLTA game online, lost 2-1 to Yugioh through cheese (watch those games, seriously), and lost 2-0 to Losira for not scouting a Nydus and going DTs which did no damage. Idra talked about Hero perfectly, mentioning his weak midgame which Sage and others didn't have.
Incontrol also said 'what about Code S a lot' to counter Protoss success in Code A. In Code S, Protoss have lost 2 PvZs and won 1. The 2 were Hongun vs July and Hongun vs Losira. Judging these games as a metric of balance is ludicrous, and to say Hongun's play was better than JYP or Sage just because he was in Code S is wrong. Incontrol tried to use statistics, but clearly the sample size is too small and anything post patch is clearly ridiculous to use. He talked about how there were only 5 Protosses in code S, but there are only 7 zergs also. Ro16 is probably gonna have 0 Protoss, but this is clearly due to Terran rather than Zerg. Only 1 Protoss has lost due to Zerg and the other 3 have lost due to Terran. Zergs that have made it through have made by being able to defeat Terran, not Protoss (except Losira). Zerg may be able to defeat Terran whilst Protoss can't (this I definitely agree with) but to use these 'stats' to judge PvZ is silly.
Except that he wasn't only taking into account the Hongun games but the entire Code S.
iNcontroL is saying to look at how bad Protoss in Code S have done, referring to not just recently but for the past 3 seasons in which I don't think there's been but one Protoss in the top 8.
Then IdrA, of course, comes back with the "Yea well the Code S Protoss suck" in which the argument shifted to talking about Hongun and Genius. It wasn't iNcontrol who even started talking about the skill of the Code S protoss, he was talking about the Code S in general and the Protoss performance in it. IdrA was the one who had to go to the "Protoss who lose suck, Zerg who lose only lose because of imbalance, Protoss who win are abusing and overpowered" argument.
If IdrA was correct there would be a trend of new Protoss coming into Code S and doing well over the past few seasons, but that hasn't happened therefore his argument has no evidence to support it. Since it has no evidence the only thing to do is look at the league with the highest skill level, Code S. That's what iNcontrol is trying to do but it's impossible to argue with someone like IdrA.
Did you listen to the argument?
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People should be less focused on the possible imbalance of zvp and more focused on the definite imbalance of tvz and tvp :p
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On September 28 2011 11:06 shinyA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:46 Micket wrote:
Usually I like Incontrol but today I just didn't agree with him. We all know Idra likes to whine and has very standard excuses for everything that doesn't fit his views. Protoss winning? Protoss imba. Zerg winning? Protoss do dumb shit. Good Protoss beat bad Zerg? Protoss op. Good Zerg beat bad Protoss? No one on Protoss is on level of Losira and Nestea.
Today, Incontrol made basically the exact same comments but in a less direct aggressive way, which made him the exact thing he criticised Greg for. Protoss winning? Look at the Zergs they were playing. Protoss losing? Protoss is absolutely terrible and cannot beat Zerg. You take your 3rd and 50 roaches arrive and you can do nothing about it. He ignored JYP, Sage and Oz and focussed on Hero, saying he is 'the best Protoss in the world', and then saying he lost vs Zerg therefore P is UP. Hero has lost a Bo1 IPLTA game online, lost 2-1 to Yugioh through cheese (watch those games, seriously), and lost 2-0 to Losira for not scouting a Nydus and going DTs which did no damage. Idra talked about Hero perfectly, mentioning his weak midgame which Sage and others didn't have.
Incontrol also said 'what about Code S a lot' to counter Protoss success in Code A. In Code S, Protoss have lost 2 PvZs and won 1. The 2 were Hongun vs July and Hongun vs Losira. Judging these games as a metric of balance is ludicrous, and to say Hongun's play was better than JYP or Sage just because he was in Code S is wrong. Incontrol tried to use statistics, but clearly the sample size is too small and anything post patch is clearly ridiculous to use. He talked about how there were only 5 Protosses in code S, but there are only 7 zergs also. Ro16 is probably gonna have 0 Protoss, but this is clearly due to Terran rather than Zerg. Only 1 Protoss has lost due to Zerg and the other 3 have lost due to Terran. Zergs that have made it through have made by being able to defeat Terran, not Protoss (except Losira). Zerg may be able to defeat Terran whilst Protoss can't (this I definitely agree with) but to use these 'stats' to judge PvZ is silly. Except that he wasn't only taking into account the Hongun games but the entire Code S. iNcontroL is saying to look at how bad Protoss in Code S have done, referring to not just recently but for the past 3 seasons in which I don't think there's been but one Protoss in the top 8. Then IdrA, of course, comes back with the "Yea well the Code S Protoss suck" in which the argument shifted to talking about Hongun and Genius. It wasn't iNcontrol who even started talking about the skill of the Code S protoss, he was talking about the Code S in general and the Protoss performance in it. IdrA was the one who had to go to the "Protoss who lose suck, Zerg who lose only lose because of imbalance, Protoss who win are abusing and overpowered" argument. If IdrA was correct there would be a trend of new Protoss coming into Code S and doing well over the past few seasons, but that hasn't happened therefore his argument has no evidence to support it. Since it has no evidence the only thing to do is look at the league with the highest skill level, Code S. That's what iNcontrol is trying to do but it's impossible to argue with someone like IdrA. Did you listen to the argument?
Incontrol's argument was dumb though
Protoss was UP, this was confirmed by results, ladder, players, professionals, and blizzard.
Now they got buffed slightly in 1.4, as well as zerg and terran getting nerfed.
Obviously, if the patch worked, it's going to take more than 7 days for people to notice the effect.
He also kept bringing up that there are 0 protoss in Code S left, yet fails to account for the fact that besides nestea, losira, coca, and dongraegu, it's mostly terrans 1/1/1ing all the protoss into Code A, not Zergs.
As for those 4 zergs with amazing ZvP, compare their skills. It's completely fair to put losira and nestea beside HongUn, Inca, Genius, and Tester and legitimately say that the zergs are just better. They have been better since 2010. In ever matchup. Compare decision making, speed, and win rates, for example.
The protoss on good teams like SlayerS are starting to shine, while ones like hongun and tester are falling behind because their teams are lackluster.
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On September 28 2011 10:46 Micket wrote:
Usually I like Incontrol but today I just didn't agree with him. We all know Idra likes to whine and has very standard excuses for everything that doesn't fit his views. Protoss winning? Protoss imba. Zerg winning? Protoss do dumb shit. Good Protoss beat bad Zerg? Protoss op. Good Zerg beat bad Protoss? No one on Protoss is on level of Losira and Nestea.
Today, Incontrol made basically the exact same comments but in a less direct aggressive way, which made him the exact thing he criticised Greg for. Protoss winning? Look at the Zergs they were playing. Protoss losing? Protoss is absolutely terrible and cannot beat Zerg. You take your 3rd and 50 roaches arrive and you can do nothing about it. He ignored JYP, Sage and Oz and focussed on Hero, saying he is 'the best Protoss in the world', and then saying he lost vs Zerg therefore P is UP. Hero has lost a Bo1 IPLTA game online, lost 2-1 to Yugioh through cheese (watch those games, seriously), and lost 2-0 to Losira for not scouting a Nydus and going DTs which did no damage. Idra talked about Hero perfectly, mentioning his weak midgame which Sage and others didn't have.
Incontrol also said 'what about Code S a lot' to counter Protoss success in Code A. In Code S, Protoss have lost 2 PvZs and won 1. The 2 were Hongun vs July and Hongun vs Losira. Judging these games as a metric of balance is ludicrous, and to say Hongun's play was better than JYP or Sage just because he was in Code S is wrong. Incontrol tried to use statistics, but clearly the sample size is too small and anything post patch is clearly ridiculous to use. He talked about how there were only 5 Protosses in code S, but there are only 7 zergs also. Ro16 is probably gonna have 0 Protoss, but this is clearly due to Terran rather than Zerg. Only 1 Protoss has lost due to Zerg and the other 3 have lost due to Terran. Zergs that have made it through have made by being able to defeat Terran, not Protoss (except Losira). Zerg may be able to defeat Terran whilst Protoss can't (this I definitely agree with) but to use these 'stats' to judge PvZ is silly.
Definitely agree with everything you said. I usually don't listen to any of Idra's bias but today Incontrol was definitely being way too biased. Code S' sample size is way too small and Hongun and Genius are not the best Protoss. Protoss can beat Zerg, we have seen it in Code A.
That's not to say that Zerg doesn't have any advantage over Protoss right now in the current metagame. But Incontrol just seemed like he pulled an Idra and said Protoss isn't supposed to beat Zerg.
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EPT
