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On September 28 2011 11:21 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:46 Micket wrote:
Usually I like Incontrol but today I just didn't agree with him. We all know Idra likes to whine and has very standard excuses for everything that doesn't fit his views. Protoss winning? Protoss imba. Zerg winning? Protoss do dumb shit. Good Protoss beat bad Zerg? Protoss op. Good Zerg beat bad Protoss? No one on Protoss is on level of Losira and Nestea.
Today, Incontrol made basically the exact same comments but in a less direct aggressive way, which made him the exact thing he criticised Greg for. Protoss winning? Look at the Zergs they were playing. Protoss losing? Protoss is absolutely terrible and cannot beat Zerg. You take your 3rd and 50 roaches arrive and you can do nothing about it. He ignored JYP, Sage and Oz and focussed on Hero, saying he is 'the best Protoss in the world', and then saying he lost vs Zerg therefore P is UP. Hero has lost a Bo1 IPLTA game online, lost 2-1 to Yugioh through cheese (watch those games, seriously), and lost 2-0 to Losira for not scouting a Nydus and going DTs which did no damage. Idra talked about Hero perfectly, mentioning his weak midgame which Sage and others didn't have.
Incontrol also said 'what about Code S a lot' to counter Protoss success in Code A. In Code S, Protoss have lost 2 PvZs and won 1. The 2 were Hongun vs July and Hongun vs Losira. Judging these games as a metric of balance is ludicrous, and to say Hongun's play was better than JYP or Sage just because he was in Code S is wrong. Incontrol tried to use statistics, but clearly the sample size is too small and anything post patch is clearly ridiculous to use. He talked about how there were only 5 Protosses in code S, but there are only 7 zergs also. Ro16 is probably gonna have 0 Protoss, but this is clearly due to Terran rather than Zerg. Only 1 Protoss has lost due to Zerg and the other 3 have lost due to Terran. Zergs that have made it through have made by being able to defeat Terran, not Protoss (except Losira). Zerg may be able to defeat Terran whilst Protoss can't (this I definitely agree with) but to use these 'stats' to judge PvZ is silly. Definitely agree with everything you said. I usually don't listen to any of Idra's bias but today Incontrol was definitely being way too biased. Code S' sample size is way too small and Hongun and Genius are not the best Protoss. Protoss can beat Zerg, we have seen it in Code A. That's not to say that Zerg doesn't have any advantage over Protoss right now in the current metagame. But Incontrol just seemed like he pulled an Idra and said Protoss isn't supposed to beat Zerg.
I felt both sides were biased and emotionally driven in their arguments, with IdrA resorting to name calling and inc sticking TOO tightly to his statistic argument. But both sides had some great points as well but I felt like Incontrols closing statement was perfect.. summed up everything very logically and concisely. And he did it calmly, which helps his cause.
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is there a vod of todays episode ? i missed it
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On September 28 2011 11:06 shinyA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 10:46 Micket wrote:
Usually I like Incontrol but today I just didn't agree with him. We all know Idra likes to whine and has very standard excuses for everything that doesn't fit his views. Protoss winning? Protoss imba. Zerg winning? Protoss do dumb shit. Good Protoss beat bad Zerg? Protoss op. Good Zerg beat bad Protoss? No one on Protoss is on level of Losira and Nestea.
Today, Incontrol made basically the exact same comments but in a less direct aggressive way, which made him the exact thing he criticised Greg for. Protoss winning? Look at the Zergs they were playing. Protoss losing? Protoss is absolutely terrible and cannot beat Zerg. You take your 3rd and 50 roaches arrive and you can do nothing about it. He ignored JYP, Sage and Oz and focussed on Hero, saying he is 'the best Protoss in the world', and then saying he lost vs Zerg therefore P is UP. Hero has lost a Bo1 IPLTA game online, lost 2-1 to Yugioh through cheese (watch those games, seriously), and lost 2-0 to Losira for not scouting a Nydus and going DTs which did no damage. Idra talked about Hero perfectly, mentioning his weak midgame which Sage and others didn't have.
Incontrol also said 'what about Code S a lot' to counter Protoss success in Code A. In Code S, Protoss have lost 2 PvZs and won 1. The 2 were Hongun vs July and Hongun vs Losira. Judging these games as a metric of balance is ludicrous, and to say Hongun's play was better than JYP or Sage just because he was in Code S is wrong. Incontrol tried to use statistics, but clearly the sample size is too small and anything post patch is clearly ridiculous to use. He talked about how there were only 5 Protosses in code S, but there are only 7 zergs also. Ro16 is probably gonna have 0 Protoss, but this is clearly due to Terran rather than Zerg. Only 1 Protoss has lost due to Zerg and the other 3 have lost due to Terran. Zergs that have made it through have made by being able to defeat Terran, not Protoss (except Losira). Zerg may be able to defeat Terran whilst Protoss can't (this I definitely agree with) but to use these 'stats' to judge PvZ is silly. Except that he wasn't only taking into account the Hongun games but the entire Code S. iNcontroL is saying to look at how bad Protoss in Code S have done, referring to not just recently but for the past 3 seasons in which I don't think there's been but one Protoss in the top 8. Then IdrA, of course, comes back with the "Yea well the Code S Protoss suck" in which the argument shifted to talking about Hongun and Genius. It wasn't iNcontrol who even started talking about the skill of the Code S protoss, he was talking about the Code S in general and the Protoss performance in it. IdrA was the one who had to go to the "Protoss who lose suck, Zerg who lose only lose because of imbalance, Protoss who win are abusing and overpowered" argument. If IdrA was correct there would be a trend of new Protoss coming into Code S and doing well over the past few seasons, but that hasn't happened therefore his argument has no evidence to support it. Since it has no evidence the only thing to do is look at the league with the highest skill level, Code S. That's what iNcontrol is trying to do but it's impossible to argue with someone like IdrA. Did you listen to the argument?
Honestly, I think most will agree that due to the complete lack of zvps in recent history its really hard to tell. And no, if IdrA was correct that wouldn't necessarily give a trend of new Protoss into Code S as there is a third race, Terran, which is dominating right now.
However, IdrA actually referred to the games where HongUn lost and explained pretty simply why he lost and made incontrol's argument make zero sense. That's not to say idra is correct, just that I think incontrol wasn't.
Personally, I think zvp is a pretty interesting matchup right now. If Stalker/Immortal becomes more viable then that might open up opportunity for interesting muta timings and other developments.
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I'm halfway through the first episode and I love it already. I should have watched it when it first started. DJ Wheat is awesome. He loves the game sincerely. Idra, Painuser and Jeff (geoff?) are all good picks to have. And of course the whole idea of the show is awesome. I need to get over my ladder anxiety.. I'm platinum and I know I could have been diamond by now if it weren't for it. Just gotta play for the love of the game and nothing else, that's all.
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On September 28 2011 11:40 jinixxx123 wrote:
is there a vod of todays episode ? i missed it
I guess this is it. The second part is in a separate vod (if I saw it right just now), just look down where the other videos are displayed. 
IMaLink
Edit: Btw. the beginning is epic just the music and all the guys just chillin' out and waiting with this bad ass music in the background.... :D
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lol it seems like almost everything is always too good vs zerg to idra
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On September 28 2011 11:53 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 11:06 shinyA wrote:On September 28 2011 10:46 Micket wrote:
Usually I like Incontrol but today I just didn't agree with him. We all know Idra likes to whine and has very standard excuses for everything that doesn't fit his views. Protoss winning? Protoss imba. Zerg winning? Protoss do dumb shit. Good Protoss beat bad Zerg? Protoss op. Good Zerg beat bad Protoss? No one on Protoss is on level of Losira and Nestea.
Today, Incontrol made basically the exact same comments but in a less direct aggressive way, which made him the exact thing he criticised Greg for. Protoss winning? Look at the Zergs they were playing. Protoss losing? Protoss is absolutely terrible and cannot beat Zerg. You take your 3rd and 50 roaches arrive and you can do nothing about it. He ignored JYP, Sage and Oz and focussed on Hero, saying he is 'the best Protoss in the world', and then saying he lost vs Zerg therefore P is UP. Hero has lost a Bo1 IPLTA game online, lost 2-1 to Yugioh through cheese (watch those games, seriously), and lost 2-0 to Losira for not scouting a Nydus and going DTs which did no damage. Idra talked about Hero perfectly, mentioning his weak midgame which Sage and others didn't have.
Incontrol also said 'what about Code S a lot' to counter Protoss success in Code A. In Code S, Protoss have lost 2 PvZs and won 1. The 2 were Hongun vs July and Hongun vs Losira. Judging these games as a metric of balance is ludicrous, and to say Hongun's play was better than JYP or Sage just because he was in Code S is wrong. Incontrol tried to use statistics, but clearly the sample size is too small and anything post patch is clearly ridiculous to use. He talked about how there were only 5 Protosses in code S, but there are only 7 zergs also. Ro16 is probably gonna have 0 Protoss, but this is clearly due to Terran rather than Zerg. Only 1 Protoss has lost due to Zerg and the other 3 have lost due to Terran. Zergs that have made it through have made by being able to defeat Terran, not Protoss (except Losira). Zerg may be able to defeat Terran whilst Protoss can't (this I definitely agree with) but to use these 'stats' to judge PvZ is silly. Except that he wasn't only taking into account the Hongun games but the entire Code S. iNcontroL is saying to look at how bad Protoss in Code S have done, referring to not just recently but for the past 3 seasons in which I don't think there's been but one Protoss in the top 8. Then IdrA, of course, comes back with the "Yea well the Code S Protoss suck" in which the argument shifted to talking about Hongun and Genius. It wasn't iNcontrol who even started talking about the skill of the Code S protoss, he was talking about the Code S in general and the Protoss performance in it. IdrA was the one who had to go to the "Protoss who lose suck, Zerg who lose only lose because of imbalance, Protoss who win are abusing and overpowered" argument. If IdrA was correct there would be a trend of new Protoss coming into Code S and doing well over the past few seasons, but that hasn't happened therefore his argument has no evidence to support it. Since it has no evidence the only thing to do is look at the league with the highest skill level, Code S. That's what iNcontrol is trying to do but it's impossible to argue with someone like IdrA. Did you listen to the argument? Honestly, I think most will agree that due to the complete lack of zvps in recent history its really hard to tell. And no, if IdrA was correct that wouldn't necessarily give a trend of new Protoss into Code S as there is a third race, Terran, which is dominating right now. However, IdrA actually referred to the games where HongUn lost and explained pretty simply why he lost and made incontrol's argument make zero sense. That's not to say idra is correct, just that I think incontrol wasn't. Personally, I think zvp is a pretty interesting matchup right now. If Stalker/Immortal becomes more viable then that might open up opportunity for interesting muta timings and other developments.
mmhmm I can agree with this. There isn't enough statistical data in GSL to really make a case on zerg vs protoss. There really isn't most of the time either race seems to lose to terran since there are so many more.
I do wish there were more zvp's as I am very curious how korean zergs play it (I mean I have seen a few but would like to see more games and more situations where I can watch zvt and see like everything it seems all sorts of cheeses, macro games, etc where as zvp is a couple macro games, a couple cheese, etc).
Really wish there was a bigger sample size of zvp but hard to do when terran is so damn strong in korea >>.
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On September 28 2011 14:06 Iron Reflex wrote:
I'm halfway through the first episode and I love it already. I should have watched it when it first started. DJ Wheat is awesome. He loves the game sincerely. Idra, Painuser and Jeff (geoff?) are all good picks to have. And of course the whole idea of the show is awesome. I need to get over my ladder anxiety.. I'm platinum and I know I could have been diamond by now if it weren't for it. Just gotta play for the love of the game and nothing else, that's all.
There IS a fine balance to it though. You've got to want to play. Knocking down a beer or two and just laddering or 1v1ing with some friends is entirely different from logging on your computer and laddering for an hour. It's not ALL ladder anxiety, is basically my point. It's just that it's almost an expectation in the sc2 community that every individual really wants to practise until they get to masters.
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You also have to consider the effect patch 1.4 had; not just from a balance point of view, but from a psychological point of view. It seemed to really shake the Code A Zergs, as immediately after the patch hit they started to all-in nearly every game. I'm not confident that Protosses would've won those recent PvZs if the Zergs had played straight-up. I suspect this will calm down over the next couple of weeks though, and we'll be able to see what effect the patch actually had.
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On September 28 2011 11:27 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 11:21 K3Nyy wrote:
That's not to say that Zerg doesn't have any advantage over Protoss right now in the current metagame. But Incontrol just seemed like he pulled an Idra and said Protoss isn't supposed to beat Zerg. I felt both sides were biased and emotionally driven in their arguments, with IdrA resorting to name calling and inc sticking TOO tightly to his statistic argument. But both sides had some great points as well but I felt like Incontrols closing statement was perfect.. summed up everything very logically and concisely. And he did it calmly, which helps his cause.
Historically, though, Incontrol have basically been making fun of Idra for saying Z is underpowered even when they clearly was, which doesn't help his argument now - because when it was extremely clear to everyone that Z was underpowered, he didn't think it was an issue.
I don't know why ZvP is discussed anywhere though, because the simple fact is Terran is the race owning pretty much everyone in Korea, where they are played properly (extremely micro intensive battle management and or harass while keeping up on macro).
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Is there any way I can get this on MP3? Long busride incoming...
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On September 28 2011 18:25 Slikk wrote:
Is there any way I can get this on MP3? Long busride incoming...
Just google "how to convert" and then the file types; like "how to convert video to mp3" or something.
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On September 28 2011 09:36 illsick wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 28 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:
IdrA has convinced me. Protoss players are fucking trash. I mean, they lose, so they must be right?
Edit: And they make DTs, those fools. too an extent i agree with him as I have been far more impressed with the play of JYP, Oz and Sage than the Code S protoss players this seasons. only in that regard though. the rest of what he was saying... even if they are more impressive, if those protoss were in code S; they wouldn't be as successful as they are in code A. We have seen Oz play for awhile, he may have improved but I'm doubtful his play is dominating now. JYP and Sage are good but I doubt they would make a splash in code S. Performance in code A does not equal how they will fare in code S.
I agree to an extent, but it's not that simple imo.
Code A protoss are just playing well. They don't miss a forcefield, they defend lings runby like a boss, they don't make stupid sentry push that get cleaned by a round of lings, they don't open 1 DT or 1 void ray hoping there won't be spores to greet them, dooming their mid game by using stupid builds.
I mean look at MC, he lost to Monster, making noob mistakes. Sage, JYP, Hero or Oz would have crushed Monster.
So yeah, they're playing against weaker opposition (but it's not like code A is weak). but when we're watching them playing, they're impressive. they're clutch, they don't make mistakes.
Which is hard to say for code S protoss who always have facepalming moments.
What I want to say is, the actual content of their game is something to be impressed by. The actual content of current code S protoss is mostly terrible, sometimes not too bad, but very rarely great.
Every single game played in code A by Sage, JYP, Hero or Oz has multiple "wow, how did he do that ?" moments. The kind of moments that MC or Puzzle had 6 and 3 months ago, and that are now replaced by "wow, why did he do that ?" moments.
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On September 28 2011 22:00 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:36 illsick wrote:On September 28 2011 09:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 28 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:
IdrA has convinced me. Protoss players are fucking trash. I mean, they lose, so they must be right?
Edit: And they make DTs, those fools. too an extent i agree with him as I have been far more impressed with the play of JYP, Oz and Sage than the Code S protoss players this seasons. only in that regard though. the rest of what he was saying... even if they are more impressive, if those protoss were in code S; they wouldn't be as successful as they are in code A. We have seen Oz play for awhile, he may have improved but I'm doubtful his play is dominating now. JYP and Sage are good but I doubt they would make a splash in code S. Performance in code A does not equal how they will fare in code S. I agree to an extent, but it's not that simple imo. Code A protoss are just playing well. They don't miss a forcefield, they defend lings runby like a boss, they don't make stupid sentry push that get cleaned by a round of lings, they don't open 1 DT or 1 void ray hoping there won't be spores to greet them, dooming their mid game by using stupid builds. I mean look at MC, he lost to Monster, making noob mistakes. Sage, JYP, Hero or Oz would have crushed Monster. So yeah, they're playing against weaker opposition (but it's not like code A is weak). but when we're watching them playing, they're impressive. they're clutch, they don't make mistakes. Which is hard to say for code S protoss who always have facepalming moments. What I want to say is, the actual content of their game is something to be impressed by. The actual content of current code S protoss is mostly terrible, sometimes not too bad, but very rarely great. Every single game played in code A by Sage, JYP, Hero or Oz has multiple "wow, how did he do that ?" moments. The kind of moments that MC or Puzzle had 6 and 3 months ago, and that are now replaced by "wow, why did he do that ?" moments.
I would agree that Sage and JYP look extremely promising, I really hope they can keep up their form in Code-S. And their overall style of play seems more solid and more fun to play than the standard protoss styles that have been failing. Oz hasn't impressed me as much, I was pretty sad that he had to knock JYP in a pvp.
But they are still fairly untested at the moment. We don't know if they would look any better than the current crop of protoss in the stupid bo1 group play in code-s.
And Monster is actually a really good player and has sick zvp. MC might not have been at his best against him but he didn't lose to a bad player.
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Idra making valid points, giving examples and backing up his arguments. Incontrol ad hominem attacks Idra. If you can't make a decent counter argument Incontrol, don't resort to personal attacks.
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On September 28 2011 22:00 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 09:36 illsick wrote:On September 28 2011 09:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 28 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:
IdrA has convinced me. Protoss players are fucking trash. I mean, they lose, so they must be right?
Edit: And they make DTs, those fools. too an extent i agree with him as I have been far more impressed with the play of JYP, Oz and Sage than the Code S protoss players this seasons. only in that regard though. the rest of what he was saying... even if they are more impressive, if those protoss were in code S; they wouldn't be as successful as they are in code A. We have seen Oz play for awhile, he may have improved but I'm doubtful his play is dominating now. JYP and Sage are good but I doubt they would make a splash in code S. Performance in code A does not equal how they will fare in code S. I agree to an extent, but it's not that simple imo. Code A protoss are just playing well. They don't miss a forcefield, they defend lings runby like a boss, they don't make stupid sentry push that get cleaned by a round of lings, they don't open 1 DT or 1 void ray hoping there won't be spores to greet them, dooming their mid game by using stupid builds. I mean look at MC, he lost to Monster, making noob mistakes. Sage, JYP, Hero or Oz would have crushed Monster. So yeah, they're playing against weaker opposition (but it's not like code A is weak). but when we're watching them playing, they're impressive. they're clutch, they don't make mistakes. Which is hard to say for code S protoss who always have facepalming moments. What I want to say is, the actual content of their game is something to be impressed by. The actual content of current code S protoss is mostly terrible, sometimes not too bad, but very rarely great. Every single game played in code A by Sage, JYP, Hero or Oz has multiple "wow, how did he do that ?" moments. The kind of moments that MC or Puzzle had 6 and 3 months ago, and that are now replaced by "wow, why did he do that ?" moments.
Actually Sage and Hero use dt's and voidrays hoping spores won't be there to greet them all the time. I've seen like 5 games recently of having a failed DT opening from hero. Vs Thorzain, vs Idra, vs some Slayers zerg in IPL team arena, etc. So I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
When these Protoss that are "playing so well" meet Losira, or Coca, or Bomber, or MVP, they will get raped just as bad as the Code S protoss. Actually watch Hero vs Losira in MLG global inv. and you can see it already.
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On September 28 2011 23:26 Lumin wrote:
Idra making valid points, giving examples and backing up his arguments. Incontrol ad hominem attacks Idra. If you can't make a decent counter argument Incontrol, don't resort to personal attacks.
i think youre mixing up the names, idra fanboy.
incontrol says what he things is overpowered (in fact, he only said protoss is not), and prooves it with numbers and specific games.
idra on the other hand comes with "protoss players are stupid" "whoever uses results doesnt understand the gameplay" and uses once specific game a protoss player in kroea finally won vs an average zergplayer. then he goes with "look and hongun", as if all protoss players would be as bad as him.
And why all that? cause he himself is bad in ZvP oO
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On September 28 2011 23:34 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 22:00 MrCon wrote:On September 28 2011 09:36 illsick wrote:On September 28 2011 09:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 28 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:
IdrA has convinced me. Protoss players are fucking trash. I mean, they lose, so they must be right?
Edit: And they make DTs, those fools. too an extent i agree with him as I have been far more impressed with the play of JYP, Oz and Sage than the Code S protoss players this seasons. only in that regard though. the rest of what he was saying... even if they are more impressive, if those protoss were in code S; they wouldn't be as successful as they are in code A. We have seen Oz play for awhile, he may have improved but I'm doubtful his play is dominating now. JYP and Sage are good but I doubt they would make a splash in code S. Performance in code A does not equal how they will fare in code S. I agree to an extent, but it's not that simple imo. Code A protoss are just playing well. They don't miss a forcefield, they defend lings runby like a boss, they don't make stupid sentry push that get cleaned by a round of lings, they don't open 1 DT or 1 void ray hoping there won't be spores to greet them, dooming their mid game by using stupid builds. I mean look at MC, he lost to Monster, making noob mistakes. Sage, JYP, Hero or Oz would have crushed Monster. So yeah, they're playing against weaker opposition (but it's not like code A is weak). but when we're watching them playing, they're impressive. they're clutch, they don't make mistakes. Which is hard to say for code S protoss who always have facepalming moments. What I want to say is, the actual content of their game is something to be impressed by. The actual content of current code S protoss is mostly terrible, sometimes not too bad, but very rarely great. Every single game played in code A by Sage, JYP, Hero or Oz has multiple "wow, how did he do that ?" moments. The kind of moments that MC or Puzzle had 6 and 3 months ago, and that are now replaced by "wow, why did he do that ?" moments. Actually Sage and Hero use dt's and voidrays hoping spores won't be there to greet them all the time. I've seen like 5 games recently of having a failed DT opening from hero. Vs Thorzain, vs Idra, vs some Slayers zerg in IPL team arena, etc. So I don't know what the hell you're talking about. When these Protoss that are "playing so well" meet Losira, or Coca, or Bomber, or MVP, they will get raped just as bad as the Code S protoss. Actually watch Hero vs Losira in MLG global inv. and you can see it already.
Yeah, they use DT and stargate openings too, but they commit to them and don't make it a dead end tech. They dual stargate, forcing the zerg to commit to a lot of defense in every single expansion, or single stargate with more than one single useless void ray.
They DT too, but with 4 DT in a warp prism, warping 4 more if they find an opening and kill the whole zerg main.
That's vastly different than what was (is) the standard. Perhaps it's only working because the timings are different than standard play, but it's the point. The more diverse pressure timings exist, the less stable zerg's openings will be.
The problem is, the "standard" is failing game after game after game, and code S protoss are still doing it.
Yeah, Nestea and Losira will rape them, Bomber and MVP will rape them too. But those 4 players are raping everyone, so it's a little unfair to say "See ? Losira won vs Hero, so he's not better than Genius or whatever code S toss".
Perhaps it's my optimistic nature that is talking, but at least I like what I see in that code A protoss games. And it has been months without me liking what I've seen in any (korean) protoss game.
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On September 29 2011 00:26 MrCon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 23:34 Olinim wrote:On September 28 2011 22:00 MrCon wrote:On September 28 2011 09:36 illsick wrote:On September 28 2011 09:15 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 28 2011 09:10 ZenithM wrote:
IdrA has convinced me. Protoss players are fucking trash. I mean, they lose, so they must be right?
Edit: And they make DTs, those fools. too an extent i agree with him as I have been far more impressed with the play of JYP, Oz and Sage than the Code S protoss players this seasons. only in that regard though. the rest of what he was saying... even if they are more impressive, if those protoss were in code S; they wouldn't be as successful as they are in code A. We have seen Oz play for awhile, he may have improved but I'm doubtful his play is dominating now. JYP and Sage are good but I doubt they would make a splash in code S. Performance in code A does not equal how they will fare in code S. I agree to an extent, but it's not that simple imo. Code A protoss are just playing well. They don't miss a forcefield, they defend lings runby like a boss, they don't make stupid sentry push that get cleaned by a round of lings, they don't open 1 DT or 1 void ray hoping there won't be spores to greet them, dooming their mid game by using stupid builds. I mean look at MC, he lost to Monster, making noob mistakes. Sage, JYP, Hero or Oz would have crushed Monster. So yeah, they're playing against weaker opposition (but it's not like code A is weak). but when we're watching them playing, they're impressive. they're clutch, they don't make mistakes. Which is hard to say for code S protoss who always have facepalming moments. What I want to say is, the actual content of their game is something to be impressed by. The actual content of current code S protoss is mostly terrible, sometimes not too bad, but very rarely great. Every single game played in code A by Sage, JYP, Hero or Oz has multiple "wow, how did he do that ?" moments. The kind of moments that MC or Puzzle had 6 and 3 months ago, and that are now replaced by "wow, why did he do that ?" moments. Actually Sage and Hero use dt's and voidrays hoping spores won't be there to greet them all the time. I've seen like 5 games recently of having a failed DT opening from hero. Vs Thorzain, vs Idra, vs some Slayers zerg in IPL team arena, etc. So I don't know what the hell you're talking about. When these Protoss that are "playing so well" meet Losira, or Coca, or Bomber, or MVP, they will get raped just as bad as the Code S protoss. Actually watch Hero vs Losira in MLG global inv. and you can see it already. Yeah, they use DT and stargate openings too, but they commit to them and don't make it a dead end tech. They dual stargate, forcing the zerg to commit to a lot of defense in every single expansion, or single stargate with more than one single useless void ray. They DT too, but with 4 DT in a warp prism, warping 4 more if they find an opening and kill the whole zerg main.
That's bullshit.
Watch Sage:
How do you see an opening with Dts when committing to the tech? When do you know you can shuttle them with a Prism inside knowing the Zerg is out of position without any map awarness / overlord spread?
It's just gimmicky bullshit hoping for success. If it got shut down he would look like
the biggest fucking noob on earth and getting bashed everywhere as a cheesy Protoss scum.
Now it worked, and everyone saying "THIS IS THE WAY PROTOSS SHOULD BE PLAYED LOOK AT HIM".
You're just pointing shit out that looks good WHEN IT WORKS, but there are dozen of games where it doesn't work. Are you telling me the correct way to approach ZvP is to come up with ridiculously gimmicky play every game hoping it works?
Like proxying a Robo, during a period zerg should have complete mapcontrol, catching everything that moves around the map?
These Protoss players are good, Heros late game is exceptional.
Still, they can't circumvent the current Protoss weakness during the midgame without doing
extremely risky, coinflippy, gimmicky builds.
It's just a testament that you can't play straight up against Zerg, and that you lack good harassment tools to establish a good economy behind and go toe-to-toe with Zerg.
You lack hellions, quick Marine Medivac Drops, effective small pushs like Marine Tank and so on.
It's just a glaring huge hole in the midgame for Protoss, where Zerg can flex their muscles and do what their macro mechanic can do best, pump a shit ton of drones uncontested and then swarm the shit out of you.
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EPT
