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On May 03 2011 02:03 Alejandrisha wrote:
Zergs could have 80% winrates in every matchup (including zvz) and they'd still find something to whine about. It's just the way the game works. Have you ever beaten a zerg who actually thought they deserved to lose? It is just the way Zerg play has developed; apparently being beaten into the ground by 5rax reaper for so long didn't sit well with them and they've grouped any loss they've suffered with a similar abuse. It is sad, really. A lot of zergs I know are losing because of their mindset rather than their play; they are beating themselves.
Zergs will always lose to players worse than them. It's just the nature of the race and the larva mechanic which forces you to choose between drones and attacking units in the early game. The race is more susceptible to all ins and cheeses than the other races, so its only natural you're gonna hear more Zerg players bitching about undeserved wins than you will Terran and Protoss.
Like that fucking 3 gate expand --> cancel nexus --> 5 gate is so ridiculously hard to scout and a lot of the time ur fucked even if you see the nexus cancelled.
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Hahaha, suddenly these results show that if anything protoss are weak and suddenly "all korean protoss are shit". For the record i wont ever complain about balance unless i make it to GM, and neither should any of you. Terran dominate KR and EU (the two highest standard servers), anyone who follows these scenes will know this. Is it because terran is OP? No. Is it because terran players are better than protoss and zerg players? No. I hope this would end protoss hate, but it wont.
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On May 03 2011 03:11 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:51 xbankx wrote:
Personally, people should just stop complaining about imbalance and just play to improve. Let the designer of the game do the game tweeking.
Also, people got to stop thinking higher apm=playing better. I just hate it whenever I hear someone say "I played better but I still lost". No, you lost because you played worse than your opponent saying the prior is merely trying to justify your loss through balance/imbalance discussion.
Some player in a few post said a lot of zerg whiners. It is mainly because pro zerg like Idra, and artosis (before he switched) tend to whine a lot more and the other zerg just follow. Protoss players have pros like Tyler and Incontrol. When protoss were dying left and right to terran/zerg in GSL1,2, and 3 they never said imba. They just said the protoss were playing bad.
Lets all remember the show Imbalance with Idra/artosis that said supposedly the "2base void ray colossus zealot build" was supposed to be unstoppable. How many PvZ pro games have people seen where toss went that. So many issues with the logic in this post... I'll start with your comparison of pro Zergs vs pro Protoss. Zerg has been buffed repeatedly since release and is only now coming to equal win ratios vs other races. Protoss has been nerfed and now they're doing better than ever. When Tyler and Incontrol said Protoss were just playing bad, that's true. When IdrA, Artosis, and every korean pro said Zerg was less capable, that was also true. Then you move on to talk about 2 base Void Ray/Colossus implying that it isn't imbalanced when the infestor was specifically buffed by Blizzard to deal with this unit composition and even AFTER that, Zergs are STILL having trouble with it. When they made that episode so many months back, it definitely WAS imbalanced and had to be addressed by the creators of the game... *sigh* why bother...
I just never seen Pro toss just don't complain no matter how bad it looks. When you remember the period with medivac with freaken high movement speed where terran can snipe your builds then stalkers can't even catch up or when zerg was dominated with 2 base mutas into 3 base mutaling toss players like Tyler and Incontrol just said toss can always play better. They don't look at the game negatively and jump straight to imba like Idra/Artosis. Zerg being UP is a mere opinion just because pro players say it doesn't mean it is true because pro player will always want their race to be buffed until they can win every tourney.
Now look at the date when the episode imbalance was posted and then look at when the infestor buff came out. Then go find as many as game in between that time when a pro toss went that strat and tell me how many you can find. I followed the scene very well during that time and even after that episode other than random ladder games I played versus nub toss. All pro games from semi big to big tourney(not counting random round of 64 of a craft cup) that I had watch, I had never seen the the strat deployed other than the first time in GSTL. How could you say it is imbalanced after the patch? It is litterally never used in the pro scene except 1 game. If it was as strong as 5 rax reaper, I expected to see more than 1 game of it.
If however you are saying zergs are having trouble with it in diamond/masters, then yea it might be true. I had a hard time stopping it myself but you should never look at balance at that low of a level.
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from that, i'm seeing toss winning more % games than zerg, the korean graph must really be volatile
man the pro scene never adapted to 6 rax 6 refinery 6 reaper cheese back before supply depots were needed for rax, worked best vs P
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On May 03 2011 03:47 Cyber_Cheese wrote:from that, i'm seeing toss winning more % games than zerg, the korean graph must really be volatile man the pro scene never adapted to 6 rax 6 refinery 6 reaper cheese back before supply depots were needed for rax, worked best vs P
Yeah P are winning the boX but have 44% in individual maps.
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This is awesome! Thanks for the visual. It's very interesting...
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On May 03 2011 03:19 loveeholicce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:03 Alejandrisha wrote:
Zergs could have 80% winrates in every matchup (including zvz) and they'd still find something to whine about. It's just the way the game works. Have you ever beaten a zerg who actually thought they deserved to lose? It is just the way Zerg play has developed; apparently being beaten into the ground by 5rax reaper for so long didn't sit well with them and they've grouped any loss they've suffered with a similar abuse. It is sad, really. A lot of zergs I know are losing because of their mindset rather than their play; they are beating themselves. Zergs will always lose to players worse than them. It's just the nature of the race and the larva mechanic which forces you to choose between drones and attacking units in the early game. The race is more susceptible to all ins and cheeses than the other races, so its only natural you're gonna hear more Zerg players bitching about undeserved wins than you will Terran and Protoss. Like that fucking 3 gate expand --> cancel nexus --> 5 gate is so ridiculously hard to scout and a lot of the time ur fucked even if you see the nexus cancelled.
This is a bunch of crap though because it implies that zergs dont have the tools necessary to stop these builds. There's no foundation for your argument. Like... I understand what you're getting at, but its very narrow to imply that other races don't have to go to extremes to scout these difficult all-ins. From the protoss perspective you have to somehow get the information if they stop droning for a roach/ling all-in, which is extremely common, at least in master's. There are ways to do this, but they arent without sacrifice. Hallucinate is becoming the new standard scout for sentry expands and ya the fake phoenix is a strong count, but getting and using hallucinate is not without sacrifice. You have speedlings and early map control via overlords and speedseers are solid midgame choices for information. I just don't buy this whole scouting problem from zerg players as I feel they have just as many tools, if not more, than the other races to get the information they need.
I really don't think its a design issue with zerg, but rather a culture issue. The other races don't have these "boo hoo" figureheads like idra, morrow, and nestea who beat the living hell out of opponent after opponent and still find a way to call zerg weak or underpowered. Can you name the equivalent whiners in other races? Don't worry, I'll wait.
They've given every bad zerg player an excuse to be hard-headed and stagnant. The thing about it when it comes to laddering is, they match you with people around your skill level... with people you are likely to be 50/50 on. If you win OR lose you can't walk away from the game saying well I lost to a much worse player. The system is pretty good in finding people around your level as you work your way up. Its this constant reinforcement of negativity that makes a zerg who played poorly still feel like they are superior players, when really 95% of the time when you lose its because you were outplayed in some way that led to your ultimate end. It might just be one big mistake, or one clutch play by the other player, but thats how the cracker crumbles in starcraft so don't make that mistake the next time and you're one step closer to becoming a bonjwa!
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United States13896 Posts
The Korean version of this should really be taken with a major grain of salt. The international database has nearly 2000 games for every month since release. The Korean database has just over 2000 games in total or about 250 games for every month. The difference when it comes to sample sizes is so large that I almost wish the second graph would have been left out or the stats would have just been added to the international stats for some kind of composite.
The fact that the international graph is trending very closely to 50% for all races means a lot more to me than seeing the Korean graph go the opposite direction.
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On May 03 2011 03:19 loveeholicce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 02:03 Alejandrisha wrote:
Zergs could have 80% winrates in every matchup (including zvz) and they'd still find something to whine about. It's just the way the game works. Have you ever beaten a zerg who actually thought they deserved to lose? It is just the way Zerg play has developed; apparently being beaten into the ground by 5rax reaper for so long didn't sit well with them and they've grouped any loss they've suffered with a similar abuse. It is sad, really. A lot of zergs I know are losing because of their mindset rather than their play; they are beating themselves. Zergs will always lose to players worse than them. It's just the nature of the race and the larva mechanic which forces you to choose between drones and attacking units in the early game. The race is more susceptible to all ins and cheeses than the other races, so its only natural you're gonna hear more Zerg players bitching about undeserved wins than you will Terran and Protoss. Like that fucking 3 gate expand --> cancel nexus --> 5 gate is so ridiculously hard to scout and a lot of the time ur fucked even if you see the nexus cancelled.
I'd say the first step to success in SC2 is picking the right race, why would you be whining if you know you play the wrong race ? That's like saying it hurts when you are hitting yourself.
So I don't think the amount of whining is justified at all no matter how bad players you lose to.
The stats look interesting but I doubt the current trend will continue very long in the foreign scene, maybe around HotS Blizzard can put the nerf hammer to rest at earliest.
Also the sample pool of the korean graph is way too small to be useful.
I'd go as far and say that you need a way longer timeline than one month in the international graph too.
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Why is this thread named "race balance last 6 months"? Name it what it is, these are just win %. Name it "win rates last 6 months".These winrates say nothing about balance.
Spoiler alert
+ Show Spoiler +Take Idra's wins vs Socke, kiwikaki and mana. You can't see the state of ZvP with just winrates. He did a series of allins vs both socke and kiwikaki and he just was way better then mana. This doesn't prove zerg is overpowered or anything. And no, I don't think Zerg is UP, I am just pointing out that win rates prove nothing.
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PvT and ZvP have pretty sweet spirals/swings for Korea
Great work, thanks OP
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Whoa, look at the impact patch 1.3 had in the Korean chart. After it Protoss' winrates just sank. Is it the impact of poor balance changes or just Toss players not being prepared for it and adjusting accordingly?
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But Protoss is so overpowered? How come they are getting crushed in the most imba matchup in the game!
I don't think Zerg is OP, I don't think this really proves anything. But imagine if these stats were reversed, every Zerg and their bitchy cousin would be whining about how imbalanced the game is.
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On May 03 2011 04:00 HwangjaeTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2011 03:19 loveeholicce wrote:On May 03 2011 02:03 Alejandrisha wrote:
Zergs could have 80% winrates in every matchup (including zvz) and they'd still find something to whine about. It's just the way the game works. Have you ever beaten a zerg who actually thought they deserved to lose? It is just the way Zerg play has developed; apparently being beaten into the ground by 5rax reaper for so long didn't sit well with them and they've grouped any loss they've suffered with a similar abuse. It is sad, really. A lot of zergs I know are losing because of their mindset rather than their play; they are beating themselves. Zergs will always lose to players worse than them. It's just the nature of the race and the larva mechanic which forces you to choose between drones and attacking units in the early game. The race is more susceptible to all ins and cheeses than the other races, so its only natural you're gonna hear more Zerg players bitching about undeserved wins than you will Terran and Protoss. Like that fucking 3 gate expand --> cancel nexus --> 5 gate is so ridiculously hard to scout and a lot of the time ur fucked even if you see the nexus cancelled. I'd say the first step to success in SC2 is picking the right race, why would you be whining if you know you play the wrong race ? That's like saying it hurts when you are hitting yourself. So I don't think the amount of whining is justified at all no matter how bad players you lose to. The stats look interesting but I doubt the current trend will continue very long in the foreign scene, maybe around HotS Blizzard can put the nerf hammer to rest at earliest.
The logic that a race is worse, therefore don't pick it or don't whine is absolutely moronic. Would you prefer that pros only play terran or protoss and the game remain unpatched?
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I don't think we can draw any kind of conclusion from these data at all. The maps are not taken into account and as everyone should know, maps play an enormous role in determining if a match up is "balanced". If we wanted to make any kind of imbalance conclusion, we would have to say X race is overpowered on Y map against Z race. Simply saying X is overpowered is almost never appropriate unless, across all maps, the results are skewed.
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On May 02 2011 23:54 Let it Raine wrote:
I wonder. Is it fair to say that korean protosses are generally terrible? That's the feeling I get from watching them but maybe I'm trying too hard to say zerg up.
Just when I watch a top 8 code s player like anypro pylon his nexus first, pull half his probes to kill it and then push out with only gateway units vs burrow roaches, I kind of have to wonder. (of course, he still won that series with 2 very skill less builds, the first of which he won even though he had 0 micro on the void ray, which was the focus of the entire build.)
It's certainly interesting to see regardless, and I'm surprised at terrans overall success.
god you should be banned, typical fucking zerg troll... korean protosses are generally terrible? r u kidding me? and anypros void rays were to confuse julyzerg into thinking that he was doing a fast expand build and to kill off overlords which they did perfectly.... god you sound fucking stupid
User was temp banned for this post.
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I would love to see IdrA try to argue with this math. Hopefully this is put down some of the unrest regarding balance of Protoss, I am personally extremely tired of beating a zerg on ladder and instead of a GG I get a IMBA or Toss is so OP. The Korean results show very little, the sample size is too small as stated, but the international results are quite astounding.
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EPT
