EPTThe interesting thing to note is how big the changes are patch after patch, and the its somewhat balancing out though. Of course, there a lot of things elsewhere to consider. Nice job OP!
Very neato-burrito to look at and think about.
Race balance last 6 months. - Page 19
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Zhou
United States832 Posts
The interesting thing to note is how big the changes are patch after patch, and the its somewhat balancing out though. Of course, there a lot of things elsewhere to consider. Nice job OP! Very neato-burrito to look at and think about. | ||
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Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
On May 05 2011 22:11 magha wrote: Haypro won that TL tourney over TLO and Nony. He lives and trains in Korea. Dont for a moment think Haypro isnt one of the best Zergs in the world. It's hard to believe one of the best Zergs in the world would forget drones in gas and stockpile 2k minerals in the midgame, like in NASL week 1. Nearly every game I watch of Hapro he just seems to stockpile extra minerals everywhere. He always seems to cripple himself in some way. Granted, I haven't watched many of his games, but at least half of the dozen games I've seen have had him do facepalm worthy novice mistakes, over and over. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 23:09 hifriend wrote: I think regardless of whether z or p has the advantage in that matchup, it's pretty poorly designed and not that enjoyable right now from a spectator point of view. Zergs tend to have to find a way to end the games at an early stage, and don't have the tools to compete in late game scenarios. Even if the matchup is at a perfect 50% win rate right now, I still wouldn't mind blizzard making some pretty large adjustments. It's heavily in flux at the moment. If it settles down into something unenjoyable ala PvP, that would be the time to change it. | ||
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MuazizTremere
Netherlands67 Posts
It's heavily in flux at the moment. If it settles down into something unenjoyable ala PvP, that would be the time to change it. Really? I find PvZ probably the most unenjoyable matchup to watch at the moment. When watching it live, it's without exception extremely 1-sided. If Protoss forge fast-expands, Zerg takes 3 bases and powers 70 drones freely and wins with a-move. If Protoss 3 warpgate expands, Zerg rolls them over with this new ling/roach bust unless they blindly make 4 cannons in which case freely powers 70 drones and wins. With a-move. If Protoss does some sort of 1-base all-in there's actually some enjoyable micro to watch and then it usually ends with Zerg holding it with emergency spines and winning. If Zerg somehow fuck up during the first 15 minutes and let Protoss start the deathball and take a third, Protoss a-moves the ball all over whatever Zerg has. How is that a fun matchup to watch? I take 4-gate micro over that any day. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 05 2011 23:55 MuazizTremere wrote: Really? Yes? There's very little stable play in the MU at the moment. Protoss and Zerg are both doing either greedy or allinish plays and ending it early. If Protoss forge fast-expands, Zerg takes 3 bases and powers 70 drones freely and wins with a-move. FFE doesn't really fall behind on workers but OK. You must know something other Zergs don't. If Protoss 3 warpgate expands, Zerg rolls them over with this new ling/roach bust unless they blindly make 4 cannons in which case freely powers 70 drones and wins. With a-move. 1 cannon holds it. Greedy tosses haven't even been making that, so they die. How is that a fun matchup to watch? I take 4-gate micro over that any day. I said it was in flux, not that it was a fun matchup. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
On May 05 2011 23:55 MuazizTremere wrote: Really? I find PvZ probably the most unenjoyable matchup to watch at the moment. When watching it live, it's without exception extremely 1-sided. If Protoss forge fast-expands, Zerg takes 3 bases and powers 70 drones freely and wins with a-move. You don't usually hatch first vs FFE because cannons rushes can be so powerful, and with pool first you fall behind economically. Just because you've seen Sheth mass expand and not get punished for it that doesn't mean that the matchup usually plays out that way, On May 05 2011 23:55 MuazizTremere wrote: If Protoss 3 warpgate expands, Zerg rolls them over with this new ling/roach bust unless they blindly make 4 cannons in which case freely powers 70 drones and wins. With a-move. Or they do a 2-base Warp Gate timing, or they turtle properly and get to 3-base and roll the Zerg over. You're just being silly. | ||
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l3iRdMaN
United States72 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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War Horse
United States247 Posts
On May 02 2011 23:46 Ctuchik wrote: Alright, so here are some charts I made on race winrates. All data is from TLPD, so this is ONLY pro games from tournaments and leagues. NO ladder games. Mirror matchups are completely excluded from the data set since they would skew the results towards 50%. MLG dallas is not included in April since they haven't released all their replays yet. First one is from the international scene: ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/dA8rr.png) And here is the korean version. NOTE THAT THE KOREAN VERSION HAS A MUCH LOWER SAMPLE SIZE! The number of players and tournaments in Korea is much lower, so therefore these numbers are more volatile. ![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/Z2rbu.png) More stuff on my twitter here and on reddit here. Can you combine the data so we get a global vision? | ||
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War Horse
United States247 Posts
On May 06 2011 00:47 l3iRdMaN wrote: lol sample size 8000 games is a pretty good sample size bro User was warned for this post | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On May 05 2011 23:55 MuazizTremere wrote: Really? I find PvZ probably the most unenjoyable matchup to watch at the moment. When watching it live, it's without exception extremely 1-sided. If Protoss forge fast-expands, Zerg takes 3 bases and powers 70 drones freely and wins with a-move. If Protoss 3 warpgate expands, Zerg rolls them over with this new ling/roach bust unless they blindly make 4 cannons in which case freely powers 70 drones and wins. With a-move. If Protoss does some sort of 1-base all-in there's actually some enjoyable micro to watch and then it usually ends with Zerg holding it with emergency spines and winning. If Zerg somehow fuck up during the first 15 minutes and let Protoss start the deathball and take a third, Protoss a-moves the ball all over whatever Zerg has. How is that a fun matchup to watch? I take 4-gate micro over that any day. Lol what games have you been watching? User was warned for this post | ||
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War Horse
United States247 Posts
On May 03 2011 00:17 dismiss wrote: The problem with these statistics is that they take neither the different maps nor the the difference in playskill into account, which, at least in my opinion, is much bigger in the foreign scene than in the GSL. So a matchup might look "more balanced" than it actually is due to a few top players beating worse players over and over. Over 8000+ games this will balance out. Also its including data from good players beating other good players There's no way for it to control by "player skill", how would you even quantify that? | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
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natehhggh
United States33 Posts
it's a small sample size for something like balance | ||
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sAfuRos
United States743 Posts
On May 06 2011 07:19 natehhggh wrote: it's a small sample size for something like balance Not really Take stats before you make comments like this | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On May 06 2011 07:31 sAfuRos wrote: Not really Take stats before you make comments like this Well, technically the number of games since the last patch is much less, and that's only what truly matters. Still gives a very good view though. | ||
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awesomoecalypse
United States2235 Posts
On May 06 2011 07:19 natehhggh wrote: it's a small sample size for something like balance and yet people constantly use anecdotal evidence of a couple games to declare "imbalance" | ||
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Stiluz
Norway688 Posts
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Eppa!
Sweden4641 Posts
On May 05 2011 23:55 MuazizTremere wrote: Really? I find PvZ probably the most unenjoyable matchup to watch at the moment. When watching it live, it's without exception extremely 1-sided. If Protoss forge fast-expands, Zerg takes 3 bases and powers 70 drones freely and wins with a-move. If Protoss 3 warpgate expands, Zerg rolls them over with this new ling/roach bust unless they blindly make 4 cannons in which case freely powers 70 drones and wins. With a-move. If Protoss does some sort of 1-base all-in there's actually some enjoyable micro to watch and then it usually ends with Zerg holding it with emergency spines and winning. If Zerg somehow fuck up during the first 15 minutes and let Protoss start the deathball and take a third, Protoss a-moves the ball all over whatever Zerg has. How is that a fun matchup to watch? I take 4-gate micro over that any day. PvZ is currently the most volatile MU atm which is why Toss and Zerg both have roll over wins. I think the MU has bigger potential than TvP where it is basically lesser drop play and ball vs ball moving around because the defender advantage is crazy for Toss and good for terran(which have the more mobile army). FFE is ahead of a pool hatch build in terms of worker + cb. 3 wg is 100% safe if you build a forge next to Nexus and have 1-3 cannons depending on maps. | ||
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Tiegrr
United States607 Posts
Glad I'm not the only one getting stomped by everything Zerg.. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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