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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On April 30 2011 10:51 MadCatZ wrote: quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset (1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1) i agree, i dont see how he can be the greatest after being knocked out of the ro32, he does well at times but has some huge flaws. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:19 XiaoJoyce- wrote: What? Now Bisu is top? No longer Flash? Or just top of his game... It's whoever posts idol is. All irrelevant. | ||
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:19 XiaoJoyce- wrote: What? Now Bisu is top? No longer Flash? Or just top of his game... The number of wins: Bisu. Win rate: Bisu and Flash are head to head. But in term of gameplay, it's still Flash. Flash's game sense is not human. But even Flash is not invincible. He just got defeated by Best (again) couple days ago in a long drawn out game. | ||
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Musou
1375 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:13 bahl sofs tiil wrote: Come on, people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants The only was to appropriately judge who is better would be to build a time machine, go back and get Boxer and Flash before they had ever played StarCraft and then drop them off back in 1998 and see who becomes better. The entire endeavor is completely pointless and no objective statements can possibly be made. At best, you get informed conjecture, but much more likely you will get nothing more than the mindless bleating of slobbering fanboys. That being said, my money is on time-traveling Boxer. That guy's brain just doesn't work like a regular person's. Flash might be better mechanically, but in a fresh, unexplored game setting, I think Boxer's innovation, creativity and friggin' magical mojo would come out on top. While I do agree that Flash's success is built upon the innovations made by Boxer, Nada, oov and others, I disagree that Flash is only better mechanically. He has by far the best game sense of any pro. So much so that people often mention how it seems like he is maphacking because he never misses anything. He nearly always scans in the right place at the right time, intercepts drops, and spots tech. He's also no slouch when it comes to innovation himself. I mean, he even has a build named after him in PvT (Flash build - double armory anti-carrier), as well as being the leading force for terrans in the past few years. While other terrans struggle to adapt to new strategies, Flash comes up with new builds and tactics that other terrans copy to win games. While his innovations in other matchups haven't been as revolutionary as PvT, if you watch the games from the recent MSLs or OSLs where he took gold, you'll see some new strategies that weren't really used before him. On April 30 2011 17:22 dukethegold wrote: The number of wins: Bisu. Win rate: Bisu and Flash are head to head. But in term of gameplay, it's still Flash. Flash's game sense is not human. But even Flash is not invincible. He just got defeated by Best (again) couple days ago in a long drawn out game. Agreed. It seems like Best's style is strong against Flash when Flash decides to be lazy and not harass, though. He's the only protoss player I can think of who has an even(or close to even) record with Flash aside from Stork. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On April 30 2011 16:07 GolemMadness wrote: MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it. MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Which is pretty badass from the people he beat to get that far in that tournament. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself. | ||
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Trikkur
United States5 Posts
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SC2Phoenix
Canada2814 Posts
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On April 30 2011 15:19 Elroi wrote: I'd love to see some old wached up pros that are still capable of amazing games in sc2: Best, Jangbi. Kind of ironic calling BeSt an old washed up pro in this thread. =P | ||
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Musou
1375 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:27 Baarn wrote: MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MItjMVbB32w MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself. Not really sure why you are using a game from when MVP had only recently become a pro when people are talking about the time SC2 came out. FYI MVP played his first televised game on Apr 13 of 2008. Yes, Nada is more accomplished. However, when SC2 came out, he was barely even active for WMF. If you look at the year before he switched over, he was 50%, with his only notable win being over Hiya. Now if you look at MVP's record the year before he switched over, he had only a 39% winrate, but the quality of his opponents was much higher. Flash, Fantasy and Skyhigh were basically the top 3 TvTers at the time. Light and Sea weren't slouches either. Stork, Best, Snow and Kal are basically the top PvTers. Taking games off Flash, Stork, Best, and Effort show how much better MVP was than Nada in the year before they switched to SC2. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:27 Baarn wrote: MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MItjMVbB32w MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Which is pretty badass from the people he beat to get that far in that tournament. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself. Looking at your post history, it seems you didn't watch or follow bw much, but its ok. The point being made here, is AT THE TIME THAT THEY SWITCHED OVER, not 2008 before Nada entered his eternal slump, MVP was better, I don't deny that Nada had a far more successful career, and even showed signs of life in 2010 with wins against illustrious players such as Hiya, Turn, and Hyvaa, but past accomplishments don't mean anything now, July's golden mouse didn't help him in the last 2 years of his bw career. Also poor MVP was a woongjin Terran, its not his fault he had it rough. | ||
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XiaoJoyce-
China2908 Posts
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thoradycus
Malaysia3262 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:42 Doodsmack wrote: Lol this thread brought all the BW elitists into the SC2 forum. Don't tread on their turf, guys. How is this BW elitism? I am a sc2 player, but i dont deny Flash would dominate the GSL if he switched. Have u watched him play? | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5587 Posts
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Megaliskuu
United States5123 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:42 Doodsmack wrote: Lol this thread brought all the BW elitists into the SC2 forum. Don't tread on their turf, guys. Flash is the most skilled RTS player in the universe, we're just stating the truth yo. On April 30 2011 17:45 XiaoJoyce- wrote: This thread making me wan to watch back BW scene... Flash is playing Really right now  | ||
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jellyfish
United States149 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:42 Doodsmack wrote: Lol this thread brought all the BW elitists into the SC2 forum. Don't tread on their turf, guys. I'm getting sick of people using "bw elitists" just to parrot a buzzword. In this case, I don't think it's a bad thing for the sc2 generation to be informed in their opinions. The argument that "great bw legends converted and aren't doing well, therefore bw skills don't mean much" simply doesn't hold water. The reason the great bw legends and certain A-team pros switched over is because they didn't have a future in bw, at least relative to sc2. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:40 Musou wrote: + Show Spoiler + On April 30 2011 17:27 Baarn wrote: MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MItjMVbB32w MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself. Not really sure why you are using a game from when MVP had only recently become a pro when people are talking about the time SC2 came out. FYI MVP played his first televised game on Apr 13 of 2008. Yes, Nada is more accomplished. However, when SC2 came out, he was barely even active for WMF. If you look at the year before he switched over, he was 50%, with his only notable win being over Hiya. Now if you look at MVP's record the year before he switched over, he had only a 39% winrate, but the quality of his opponents was much higher. Flash, Fantasy and Skyhigh were basically the top 3 TvTers at the time. Light and Sea weren't slouches either. Stork, Best, Snow and Kal are basically the top PvTers. Taking games off Flash, Stork, Best, and Effort show how much better MVP was than Nada in the year before they switched to SC2. What are you smoking? Can I have some? Taking games off people in 1 tournament or two doesn't suddenly make you better than a legend. At least Nada won the last game he played. In wins alone Nada still has more games than MVP in his entire career. Nada won the last game he played in broodwar. MVP hasn't won 6 championships (yet). In a few years talk to me again about this. MVP showcased the potential Woojin saw and you see. That's it. | ||
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Daozzt
United States1263 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:27 Baarn wrote: MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MItjMVbB32w MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Which is pretty badass from the people he beat to get that far in that tournament. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself. You linked one game that happened an eternity ago when Nada was still decent and MVP was a rookie. You sure proved everyone wrong. Might as well pull up that video of Boxer nuking Killer a year ago to make the claim that Boxer > modern A teamers. | ||
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dukethegold
Canada5645 Posts
I give credit where it is due. But let's be honest here. MVP's BW accomplishment is even less than Hyuk. Many many random players of variable reputation had achievements comparable or better than MVP. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:27 Baarn wrote: MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MItjMVbB32w MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Which is pretty badass from the people he beat to get that far in that tournament. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself. that's 2008. JANGBI was good in 2008 and look at how fucking terrible he is now. MVP was a woongjin terran, but he was still a PL regular, just had terrible tvt, which also makes up over half his games. | ||
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