oGs MC, the world's best StarCraft 2 player and a two time GSL champion, sits down in the interview chair as the next subject for SK Gaming's 1on1 series. In part one (of three) MC looks back on the game he came from: Brood War.
Some of the topics discussed: -MC's appearance on 'Hyungjoon Becomes A Progamer' as a comic relief rapping and singing -Whether MC's BW career would have taken off like his SC2 career did. -Does the lack of success of the elite four in SC2 (MC, NesTea, MVP, MarineKing) during their BW careers mean Flash, Jaedong, Stork and Bisu would dominate SC2 if they switched? -Protoss players MC looked up to BW. -When MC knew he would win the GSL.
Part one of this interview can be watched at SK Gaming.
On April 30 2011 10:55 Onlinejaguar wrote: Saying that Flash would do well in SC2 is kind of an obvious statement.
Would have to agree with this. Anybody who has seen a FPVOD of Jaedong or Flash can see they are on a different level than even players like MVP (best bw player to come to sc2).
I don't understand why the interview wasn't just given in text, though. It's translated from a different language and just takes longer to watch than to read. It is literally a waste of time.
On April 30 2011 10:55 Onlinejaguar wrote: Saying that Flash would do well in SC2 is kind of an obvious statement.
Would have to agree with this. Anybody who has seen a FPVOD of Jaedong or Flash can see they are on a different level than even players like MVP (best bw player to come to sc2).
Nada/July?
But yeah its a real no brainer if you had to pick someone from BW to do well in SC2 it would be Flash or JD.
Flash would definitely do well in any games really. This guy is not a human being. I mean, can you imagine such a godly player using marines, marauders, hellions, banshees? He could break the game for months. until blizzard decide to nerf terran. But anyway thanks for sharing this interview. I love MC.
On April 30 2011 10:55 Onlinejaguar wrote: Saying that Flash would do well in SC2 is kind of an obvious statement.
Would have to agree with this. Anybody who has seen a FPVOD of Jaedong or Flash can see they are on a different level than even players like MVP (best bw player to come to sc2).
Nada/July?
But yeah its a real no brainer if you had to pick someone from BW to do well in SC2 it would be Flash or JD.
Nada and July are legends, but past their prime and would have gotten smashed by MVP.
On April 30 2011 10:55 Onlinejaguar wrote: Saying that Flash would do well in SC2 is kind of an obvious statement.
Would have to agree with this. Anybody who has seen a FPVOD of Jaedong or Flash can see they are on a different level than even players like MVP (best bw player to come to sc2).
Nada/July?
But yeah its a real no brainer if you had to pick someone from BW to do well in SC2 it would be Flash or JD.
I meant at the time they came over.
Yes Nada/July have much better achievements, but to say they were better at BW than MVP when SC2 came out is flat out wrong.
@Darthxx exactly what someone who didn't watch sc1 would say. Nada and July are legends in terms of accomplishments. But like any other game, the skill level increases as the game is out longer. Mvp is so far the strongest sc1 player to switch over, and his results/play in sc2 prove what sc1 skill will do for you in sc2.
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: oGs MC the world's best StarCraft 2 player
quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset
(1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1)
He has smashed euro and korean tournaments recently and it doesn't look like he is stopping anytime soon. How can you not call him the best player when he globally has the most achievements?
On April 30 2011 10:55 Onlinejaguar wrote: Saying that Flash would do well in SC2 is kind of an obvious statement.
Would have to agree with this. Anybody who has seen a FPVOD of Jaedong or Flash can see they are on a different level than even players like MVP (best bw player to come to sc2).
I'm just going to make a wild guess and say that JUST PERHAPS Boxer and Nada are the best bw players to come to sc2.
(Unless you mean the most successful bw players coming to sc2, which would make more sense)
On April 30 2011 10:55 Onlinejaguar wrote: Saying that Flash would do well in SC2 is kind of an obvious statement.
Would have to agree with this. Anybody who has seen a FPVOD of Jaedong or Flash can see they are on a different level than even players like MVP (best bw player to come to sc2).
I'm just going to make a wild guess and say that JUST PERHAPS Boxer and Nada are the best bw players to come to sc2.
(Unless you mean the most successful bw players coming to sc2, which would make more sense)
Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
On April 30 2011 10:55 Onlinejaguar wrote: Saying that Flash would do well in SC2 is kind of an obvious statement.
Would have to agree with this. Anybody who has seen a FPVOD of Jaedong or Flash can see they are on a different level than even players like MVP (best bw player to come to sc2).
I'm just going to make a wild guess and say that JUST PERHAPS Boxer and Nada are the best bw players to come to sc2.
(Unless you mean the most successful bw players coming to sc2, which would make more sense)
You have it backwards, Boxer and Nada are more successful, Mvp is more skilled in sc1 than either of them. In fact he's the best sc1 player to have switched so far (in terms of raw skill)
I always wondered what the top SC2 players thought about themselves now compared to when they were mediocre in BW. hearing MC say that "I am definitely certain that I can do as well as they do" when refering to TBLS made my eyes roll a bit. I hope there's a little bit of a translation error, because if MC doesn't recognize them as vastly superior players, I....dunno what to say. Yes MC is great at SC2, but don't put yourself on the same level as them, just don't.
Before people spew their uneducated nonsense, NADA, JULY, AND BOXER WERE FUCKING AWFUL AT BW WHEN THEY SWITCHED OVER TO SC2, mvp was the most skilled at that point.
On April 30 2011 11:13 Tachion wrote: I always wondered what the top SC2 players thought about themselves now compared to when they were mediocre in BW. hearing MC say that "I am definitely certain that I can do as well as they do" when refering to TBLS made my eyes roll a bit. I hope there's a little bit of a translation error, because if MC doesn't recognize them as vastly superior players, I....dunno what to say. Yes MC is great at SC2, but don't put yourself on the same level as them, just don't.
It's better to say that in an interview rather than "they would smash me if they switched to SC2".
-Does the lack of success of the elite four in SC2 ((P)MC, (Z)NesTea, (T)MVP, (T)MarineKing) during their BW careers mean (T)Flash, (Z)Jaedong, (P)Stork and (P)Bisu would dominate SC2 if they switched?
I think they would, but not because of BW mechanics and experience. In fact, I think the BW mechanics and experience can only get you so far. Just look at the pro's play from beta. Even Tyler was playing completely terrible by today's SC2 standards.
Flash/Jaedong/Stork/Bisu would become great at SC2, because they are dedicated to what they do. They could probably become world-class professional poker players if they wanted to. It's all about the mental aspect and passion for their job. If they ever switch, they'll start off just as terrible as anyone else does, but they'll quickly become elite players.
Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
-Does the lack of success of the elite four in SC2 ((P)MC, (Z)NesTea, (T)MVP, (T)MarineKing) during their BW careers mean (T)Flash, (Z)Jaedong, (P)Stork and (P)Bisu would dominate SC2 if they switched?
I think they would, but not because of BW mechanics and experience. In fact, I think the BW mechanics and experience can only get you so far. Just look at the pro's play from beta. Even Tyler was playing completely terrible by today's SC2 standards.
Flash/Jaedong/Stork/Bisu would become great at SC2, because they are dedicated to what they do. They could probably become world-class professional poker players if they wanted to. It's all about the mental aspect and passion for their job. If they ever switch, they'll start off just as terrible as anyone else does, but they'll quickly become elite players.
Moreso, I think that these players would be successful mainly because they are master strategists. Their decision making, as well as their unit control when it comes to tactics & positioning, may be their bests strenghts in my opinion.
I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
On April 30 2011 10:55 Onlinejaguar wrote: Saying that Flash would do well in SC2 is kind of an obvious statement.
Would have to agree with this. Anybody who has seen a FPVOD of Jaedong or Flash can see they are on a different level than even players like MVP (best bw player to come to sc2).
Nada/July?
But yeah its a real no brainer if you had to pick someone from BW to do well in SC2 it would be Flash or JD.
flash and jaedong are on top now
nada and july haven't been for years
flash would dominate SC2 and that's guranteed (idle worker icon and bind...the guy has no idle workers in BW even)
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
this is perhaps the most arrogant sounding thing i've read in this entire thread, and thats saying something.
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
this is perhaps the most arrogant sounding thing i've read in this entire thread, and thats saying something.
it's true though, some less than obvious answer would've been better ^_^
It seems a lot of people don't understand what the difference between best in terms of skill and best in terms of achievement means. Let me try my hand at an analogy. Babe Ruth is considered one of the best baseball players of all time. He is easily one of the most accomplished (3rd for most homeruns in history). But back then, there were only what? 1-2 pitches? Fastball and...fastball. We have no way of knowing how good Babe Ruth's swing would fare against today's major league pitchers (who's arsenal range from fastballs to curveballs/sliders/knuckleballs, etc.) I would daresay Albert Pujols has better mechanics than Babe Ruth did if he were still alive today. Even though Pujols isn't as decorated achievement wise as Ruth. Boxer, Nada, July are mainly known for their achievements. Their skill compared to today's players is not as impressive. People like Mvp today, though not very accomplished, are better than those legends in raw skill.
I think Flash would destroy this game if he ever switches. Mvp is proof that sc1 skills carry over into sc2 amazingly well.
i dont think its really a question whether or not the jaedong bisu flash trifecta would do well is sc2, thus far the best sc2 players all came from bw so as the best players ever how could they not be great as sc2 its just a question of how much would they dominate
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
No way lol MVP was not good. He was probably higher ranked because of a decent MSL showing but Nada was still an active, winning player in pro league in 2010, July was slumping in 2010 but completely revitalized his career from a similar slump not so long ago to win another OSL.
Never in a million years could MVP be considered the better player. If they all focused 100% on SC2 MVP is trash compared to July or Nada
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
this is perhaps the most arrogant sounding thing i've read in this entire thread, and thats saying something.
What's arrogant about it. His statement just consists of facts.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
No way lol MVP was not good. He was probably higher ranked because of a decent MSL showing but Nada was still an active, winning player in pro league in 2010, July was slumping in 2010 but completely revitalized his career from a similar slump not so long ago to win another OSL.
Never in a million years could MVP be considered the better player. If they all focused 100% on SC2 MVP is trash compared to July or Nada
I dunno how you can say this. MVP is the technically better player because he would definitely beat the others head to head even if those players were at their peaks. So skillwise alone yes he is the better player.
On April 30 2011 10:55 Onlinejaguar wrote: Saying that Flash would do well in SC2 is kind of an obvious statement.
Would have to agree with this. Anybody who has seen a FPVOD of Jaedong or Flash can see they are on a different level than even players like MVP (best bw player to come to sc2).
Nada/July?
But yeah its a real no brainer if you had to pick someone from BW to do well in SC2 it would be Flash or JD.
Now that I think about it, wasn't Tester also doing pretty good when he switched over? Wasn't he in the ro16 in one of the SLs not long ago?
It isn't a suprise the "best" players are ex-pros (not just BW.. look at the TSL). This isn't because they are inherently better but just because they are used to the routine and are willing to put in the work.
Why the hell is the title of this interview "Flash would defiantly do well in sc2"... Is anyone sitting around thinking, "you know what theres no way flash could succeed in sc2, his eyes wouldnt be able to adjust to the fancy graphics and it would throw him off his game, he would for sure be a failure as a sc2 player"... Its obvious that he would do well...
The interview was cool and all, but trying to sell the interview by making that title is pretty silly... We all know flash would do well in sc2, we dont need mc to re-iterate that. Nor was the point a central aspect of the interview...
On April 30 2011 11:16 Megaliskuu wrote: Before people spew their uneducated nonsense, NADA, JULY, AND BOXER WERE FUCKING AWFUL AT BW WHEN THEY SWITCHED OVER TO SC2, mvp was the most skilled at that point.
*Puts on fanboy earphones*
Sorry, what was that? I had this weirdest day dream that someone was dissing 3 seperate BW legends directly all in the same sentence.
On April 30 2011 11:16 Megaliskuu wrote: Before people spew their uneducated nonsense, NADA, JULY, AND BOXER WERE FUCKING AWFUL AT BW WHEN THEY SWITCHED OVER TO SC2, mvp was the most skilled at that point.
*Puts on fanboy earphones*
Sorry, what was that? I had this weirdest day dream that someone was dissing 3 seperate BW legends directly all in the same sentence.
Yeah you tell him off guy who joined in 2010. He's basically correct except for NaDa who was still half-decent.
i think these 1st gen sc2 players are making the most of what they can as fast as possible. if more prominent bw players transfer to sc2, their status would be quickly overshadowed. their timing window for success is closing ever so gradually on a daily basis. they know this in the back of their minds, and as each day passes, they grow that much more fearful. DUN DUN DUN.
On April 30 2011 11:16 Megaliskuu wrote: Before people spew their uneducated nonsense, NADA, JULY, AND BOXER WERE FUCKING AWFUL AT BW WHEN THEY SWITCHED OVER TO SC2, mvp was the most skilled at that point.
*Puts on fanboy earphones*
Sorry, what was that? I had this weirdest day dream that someone was dissing 3 seperate BW legends directly all in the same sentence.
On April 30 2011 11:45 intoyourrainbOW wrote: i think these 1st gen sc2 players are making the most of what they can as fast as possible. if more prominent bw players transfer to sc2, their status would be quickly overshadowed. their timing window for success is closing ever so gradually on a daily basis. they know this in the back of their minds, and as each day passes, they grow that much more fearful. DUN DUN DUN.
Prominent players are not going to switch, so it doesn't matter. They are in a fine position... i'd be more worried about the many dedicated youngsters who are willing to put in far more time than the older players.
They would definitely dominate. They're just on another level in terms of mechanics and game sense.
Though it might actually be years before they switch.. I remember reading an interview saying they wanted to continue playing sc1 and don't plan to switch over for a long time.
On April 30 2011 11:16 Megaliskuu wrote: Before people spew their uneducated nonsense, NADA, JULY, AND BOXER WERE FUCKING AWFUL AT BW WHEN THEY SWITCHED OVER TO SC2, mvp was the most skilled at that point.
Lol... awful at BW? Maybe a bit lacking in the pro scene, but by no means are they awful. They're still very good at the game, just not good enough to compete with the new generation.
Flash in SC2 would be devastating. No one would even stand the slightest chance. I hope I don't see it for a while though. Need to keep all the good players in BW And I would be so sad if JD ever moved..
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: oGs MC the world's best StarCraft 2 player
quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset
(1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1)
Beeing the best doesnt mean beeing perfect.. does it ?
well when being claimed as the "best" you have to be a well rounded player mechanically physically mentally
if you are lacking in one of those catagories you will make mistakes(as we see MC do) and not be able to reach the "best" spot
but games to volatile still to have the "best"
theres def atleast 5-6 people in the running for that position
No you don't. You just have to be better than the people you're competing against. While MC may not be the undisputed "best", I really wouldn't go so far as to say that there are 5-6 people at this point in contention for the title. Seriously, which 5-6 people do you see at this level right now?
Also, to suggest that "the best" player would not make mistakes is just dumb. Everyone makes mistakes. Being the best just means making less mistakes than most others and I think MC easily fits into this category.
On April 30 2011 11:57 Existential wrote: Flash in SC2 would be devastating. No one would even stand the slightest chance. I hope I don't see it for a while though. Need to keep all the good players in BW And I would be so sad if JD ever moved..
Seriously, talk about wasted potential if he did...
On April 30 2011 11:57 Existential wrote: Flash in SC2 would be devastating. No one would even stand the slightest chance. I hope I don't see it for a while though. Need to keep all the good players in BW And I would be so sad if JD ever moved..
Seriously, talk about wasted potential if he did...
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: oGs MC the world's best StarCraft 2 player
quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset
(1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1)
I would say no one has passed him yet. MVP is in Code A so yeah...
MVP falling to code A was a long time ago during his slump... since then he's won the WC and he's cruising through code A while MC's achievements have been both up and down. Won copenhagen, but also got knocked out of code S by polt, and got knocked out of TSL 3, lost to Ret in NASL. He definitely isn't as clear cut since his 2nd GSL championship when everyone else around seemed to be doing bad.
I think its pretty tough to dispute MC being the best SC2 player right now. Say what you want about his playstyle, it gets him consistent results. 2 GSL championships, dreamhack invitational champion, copenhagen champion, TSL3 RO8 contender. He's the only person in the world who has dominated both Korean and Western tournaments. Sure MVP has a GSL championship and the world GSL championship (really a mostly korean tournament) but thats it. Nestea is undisputable the best Zerg in the world, however he only has one GSL championship. MarineKing has great consistency in GSL but hasn't done anything other than that.
Foreigners that might come close would be WhiteRa, Dimaga, Naniwa, and Idra, but lets be honest victories in the korean scene are more prestigous than those in the west (at least for now).
That being said despite MC being the best SC2 player in the world, he's by no means invincible. He's suffered several defeats in the GSL, TSL, and NASL. I think SC2 is too young for bonjwas, but MC is the closest we've got.
SC2 is like the old folk's home of RTS games. It's where Broodwar players go when they get old/retire. So hopefully we won't see any of TBLS switching over for years to come.
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: oGs MC the world's best StarCraft 2 player
quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset
(1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1)
I would say no one has passed him yet. MVP is in Code A so yeah...
MVP falling to code A was a long time ago during his slump... since then he's won the WC and he's cruising through code A while MC's achievements have been both up and down. Won copenhagen, but also got knocked out of code S by polt, and got knocked out of TSL 3, lost to Ret in NASL. He definitely isn't as clear cut since his 2nd GSL championship when everyone else around seemed to be doing bad.
MVP also got knocked out of TSL 3 (earlier than MC, I might add), so I don't know how you thought that would be a fair point to make.
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: oGs MC the world's best StarCraft 2 player
quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset
(1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1)
I would say no one has passed him yet. MVP is in Code A so yeah...
MVP falling to code A was a long time ago during his slump... since then he's won the WC and he's cruising through code A while MC's achievements have been both up and down. Won copenhagen, but also got knocked out of code S by polt, and got knocked out of TSL 3, lost to Ret in NASL. He definitely isn't as clear cut since his 2nd GSL championship when everyone else around seemed to be doing bad.
MVP also got knocked out of TSL 3 (earlier than MC, I might add), so I don't know how you thought that would be a fair point to make.
because again that was a long time ago? thought this was obvious... All the losses MVP incurred were during the same period of around 2 weeks where he was in the slump and since then he's looking to be like his old self
still too early for bonjwa status though , back when MVP was in his prime it looked like no one could even take a game off him considering he only dropped 1 game in his GSL run and 1 game in his long gainward tournament run, but now it seems like anyone is capable of taking at least a game off him in a boX
same with MC when he won his 4th GSL albeit he didn't really beat the best players in that tournament considering there were so many upsets in the ro32
I'm sure flash would do well eventually if he switched over.
But I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't dominate. At least definitely not for a few months when he first starts.
SC2 isn't a game you can just pick up and play and beat everyone based on your BW instincts, as some other legends have shown. People like Nada and July have basically had to relearn the game from scratch, because it is a new game. It took a lot of work for them to even get to the same level as most of the other pros.
I can see Flash getting there a bit faster though.
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: oGs MC the world's best StarCraft 2 player
quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset
(1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1)
I would say no one has passed him yet. MVP is in Code A so yeah...
MVP falling to code A was a long time ago during his slump... since then he's won the WC and he's cruising through code A while MC's achievements have been both up and down. Won copenhagen, but also got knocked out of code S by polt, and got knocked out of TSL 3, lost to Ret in NASL. He definitely isn't as clear cut since his 2nd GSL championship when everyone else around seemed to be doing bad.
MVP also got knocked out of TSL 3 (earlier than MC, I might add), so I don't know how you thought that would be a fair point to make.
because again that was a long time ago? thought this was obvious... All the losses MVP occurred were during the same period of around 2 weeks where he was in the slump and since then he's looking to be like his old self
So, you're basically saying that getting knocked out of a tournament earlier than a different player somehow works in the favor of the player that got knocked out earlier when you compare their skill levels? What?
Oh, and okay, sure - MVP was in a slump then, just as MC could be in a slump now. Still don't see your point - they're both slumping, just at different times. As it stands now, MC and MVP both have two GSL wins (though the WC win I would argue is slightly less laudable than a normal GSL win since it was a shorter tournament), while MC has also had more international success than MVP (though, to be fair, MVP isn't as popular as MC overseas so he doesn't get invited to stuff that MC does).
On April 30 2011 13:17 Itsmedudeman wrote: still too early for bonjwa status though , back when MVP was in his prime it looked like no one could even take a game off him considering he only dropped 1 game in his GSL run and 1 game in his long gainward tournament run, but now it seems like anyone is capable of taking at least a game off him in a boX
same with MC when he won his 4th GSL albeit he didn't really beat the best players in that tournament considering there were so many upsets in the ro32
No one is talking about bonjwas. Don't know where that statement came from.
I was saying that MC was considered the best player back then, but that was relatively a long time ago where a lot of stuff has happened since then
anyways, it's highly debated who is the best right now because even though MC has had more success,because he's been in more tournaments, he certainly isn't looking to be the "superior player" over MVP currently. Just because you take more shots and convert on 40% of them doesn't mean you're as good as the player who shoots less shots but makes 50%
realize that MVP hasn't lost a BoX since entering the GSL WCs, and he did relatively well in the GSTL, eventually losing to MMA but getting a 3 kill and 2 kills prior to that
On April 30 2011 13:23 TedJustice wrote: I'm sure flash would do well eventually if he switched over.
But I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't dominate. At least definitely not for a few months when he first starts.
SC2 isn't a game you can just pick up and play and beat everyone based on your BW instincts, as some other legends have shown. People like Nada and July have basically had to relearn the game from scratch, because it is a new game. It took a lot of work for them to even get to the same level as most of the other pros.
I can see Flash getting there a bit faster though.
Tbh,Flash is like 10000x better than boxer/nada/july when they switched to sc2, whether be it macro/gamesense. Though he would lose here and there due to BO losses and such.
On April 30 2011 13:23 TedJustice wrote: I'm sure flash would do well eventually if he switched over.
But I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't dominate. At least definitely not for a few months when he first starts.
SC2 isn't a game you can just pick up and play and beat everyone based on your BW instincts, as some other legends have shown. People like Nada and July have basically had to relearn the game from scratch, because it is a new game. It took a lot of work for them to even get to the same level as most of the other pros.
I can see Flash getting there a bit faster though.
Tbh,Flash is like 10000x better than boxer/nada/july when they switched to sc2, whether be it macro/gamesense.
That may be true, but it's still a different game and they'd need to learn a lot more than most people think.
At the very least I'd say it would take him a month.
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: -Does the lack of success of NesTea, MVP, during their BW careers mean Flash, Jaedong, Stork and Bisu would dominate SC2 if they switched?
MVP was very successful in BW, was in the Top 20 players when he switched. And NesTea wasn't that bad, much, much better than Iron and Clare though
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
this is perhaps the most arrogant sounding thing i've read in this entire thread, and thats saying something.
What's arrogant about it. His statement just consists of facts.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
No way lol MVP was not good. He was probably higher ranked because of a decent MSL showing but Nada was still an active, winning player in pro league in 2010, July was slumping in 2010 but completely revitalized his career from a similar slump not so long ago to win another OSL.
Never in a million years could MVP be considered the better player. If they all focused 100% on SC2 MVP is trash compared to July or Nada
I dunno how you can say this. MVP is the technically better player because he would definitely beat the others head to head even if those players were at their peaks. So skillwise alone yes he is the better player.
MVP played NaDa in broodwar In october of 2008, in a proleague match and lost. That alone discredits the statement your making that he would "definitely beat the others head to head"
On April 30 2011 13:32 Itsmedudeman wrote: different paragraph, different tangent..?
I was saying that MC was considered the best player back then, but that was relatively a long time ago where a lot of stuff has happened since then
anyways, it's highly debated who is the best right now because even though MC has had more success,because he's been in more tournaments, he certainly isn't looking to be the "superior player" over MVP currently. Just because you take more shots and convert on 40% of them doesn't mean you're as good as the player who shoots less shots but makes 50%
Your last paragraph makes a good point with the shots analogy, but I argue that more shots shows a clearer picture. MC has also had plenty of success in international tournaments (getting knocked out by Thorzain's ridiculous TvP isn't something to be ashamed of), especially the LAN tournaments where he has an almost perfect (if not perfect) record, if I recall correctly (I speak of the Dreamhack invitational and Copenhagen, to be specific). It's not like MC is just going to every international tournament around and performing crappy in most of them - he's consistently doing very well, if not winning outright. I don't really count his loss in the NASL because top Koreans overall don't seem to be doing as well in the NASL for some reason, so it wouldn't be fair to single out MC (this could be due to how they have to play matches at 4am, lag issues, or whatever - I've observed a trend of Koreans simply doing worse in international online tournaments than they seem to do at LANs, but that's a discussion for a different topic).
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
this is perhaps the most arrogant sounding thing i've read in this entire thread, and thats saying something.
What's arrogant about it. His statement just consists of facts.
On April 30 2011 11:31 floor exercise wrote:
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
No way lol MVP was not good. He was probably higher ranked because of a decent MSL showing but Nada was still an active, winning player in pro league in 2010, July was slumping in 2010 but completely revitalized his career from a similar slump not so long ago to win another OSL.
Never in a million years could MVP be considered the better player. If they all focused 100% on SC2 MVP is trash compared to July or Nada
I dunno how you can say this. MVP is the technically better player because he would definitely beat the others head to head even if those players were at their peaks. So skillwise alone yes he is the better player.
MVP played NaDa in broodwar In october of 2008, in a proleague match and lost. That alone discredits the statement your making that he would "definitely beat the others head to head"
As there are fewer differentiators of skill in SC2 I can see Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork losing games or even matches to weaker players often. I don't think it's possible to become dominant in the same way considering the nature of the game.
Imagine the following scenario: Flash is invited to TSL4. Lag is not an issue at this point. Could he be upset and knocked out early by a player generally considered worse? I could definitely see it happening, and it wasn't a possibility at WCG for any of them. The differences between players are just too thin.
If you are a champion, you need to maintain self-esteem. Of course MC can't admit to others or himself that if Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork switched, the current SC2 lineup would be obliterated within three months.
On April 30 2011 13:46 dukethegold wrote: If you are a champion, you need to maintain self-esteem. Of course MC can't admit to others or himself that if Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork switched, the current SC2 lineup would be obliterated within three months.
It wouldn't, it took the current players a hilariously long time to learn and master all the timings as well as they have, and the game keeps shifting. The differences is, Brood War is basically as figured out as it's going to get, so it's just a question of who has the best mechanics and experience/training with it, SC2 is a long way from getting there, and thus is volatile. So... doesn't matter how good you are, nobody is completely dominating the scene. MC is the closest there is, and he got 2-0'd by Polt in the GSL and got knocked to the up and down matches.
On April 30 2011 13:46 dukethegold wrote: If you are a champion, you need to maintain self-esteem. Of course MC can't admit to others or himself that if Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork switched, the current SC2 lineup would be obliterated within three months.
It wouldn't, it took the current players a hilariously long time to learn and master all the timings as well as they have, and the game keeps shifting. The differences is, Brood War is basically as figured out as it's going to get, so it's just a question of who has the best mechanics and experience/training with it, SC2 is a long way from getting there, and thus is volatile. So... doesn't matter how good you are, nobody is completely dominating the scene. MC is the closest there is, and he got 2-0'd by Polt in the GSL and got knocked to the up and down matches.
Maybe 6 months, maybe not at all.
Metagame in BW is still changing lol, Just look at Neo.G_Soulkey + Zero ZvT. And Shines crazy build that he used on Reality in MSL. TBLS are super hardworking, and masters of RTS, they'd destroy everyone pretty fast, maybe a month.
On April 30 2011 13:46 dukethegold wrote: If you are a champion, you need to maintain self-esteem. Of course MC can't admit to others or himself that if Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork switched, the current SC2 lineup would be obliterated within three months.
It wouldn't, it took the current players a hilariously long time to learn and master all the timings as well as they have, and the game keeps shifting. The differences is, Brood War is basically as figured out as it's going to get, so it's just a question of who has the best mechanics and experience/training with it, SC2 is a long way from getting there, and thus is volatile. So... doesn't matter how good you are, nobody is completely dominating the scene. MC is the closest there is, and he got 2-0'd by Polt in the GSL and got knocked to the up and down matches.
Maybe 6 months, maybe not at all.
Brood War is figured out? Do you even watch BW? Every time someone makes a statement like that, the matchups get revolutionized again. In the past year alone there have been multiple metagame shifts, with the most recent one being heavy queen play against mech ZvT in the past few weeks.
On April 30 2011 13:46 dukethegold wrote: If you are a champion, you need to maintain self-esteem. Of course MC can't admit to others or himself that if Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork switched, the current SC2 lineup would be obliterated within three months.
It wouldn't, it took the current players a hilariously long time to learn and master all the timings as well as they have, and the game keeps shifting. The differences is, Brood War is basically as figured out as it's going to get, so it's just a question of who has the best mechanics and experience/training with it, SC2 is a long way from getting there, and thus is volatile. So... doesn't matter how good you are, nobody is completely dominating the scene. MC is the closest there is, and he got 2-0'd by Polt in the GSL and got knocked to the up and down matches.
Maybe 6 months, maybe not at all.
Brood War is figured out? Do you even watch BW? Every time someone makes a statement like that, the matchups get revolutionized again. In the past year alone there have been multiple metagame shifts, with the most recent one being heavy queen play against mech ZvT in the past few weeks.
You misunderstood: I didn't say that it is completely figured out, nothing to learn, just that by now, it's about as figured out as it is going to get. There will be new developments, but it's not so much a question of "woah, new shit, this'll take months to figure out how to deal with it" as it is "Okay, this is unusual and unexpected, not really normal, but I've got some good ideas." Sure, there's always a little bit more to learn, but these developments aren't HUGE glaring shifts that massively change everything, people aren't suddenly discovering super effective new cheeses that kill better players really early on, etc., and SC2 is still being patched.
There's no question that Flash would be an excellent player of SC2, and definitely has the potential to be one of the best period, but I'm not certain that he'd show up, and in 3 months be winning everything left and right.
On April 30 2011 13:46 dukethegold wrote: If you are a champion, you need to maintain self-esteem. Of course MC can't admit to others or himself that if Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork switched, the current SC2 lineup would be obliterated within three months.
It wouldn't, it took the current players a hilariously long time to learn and master all the timings as well as they have, and the game keeps shifting. The differences is, Brood War is basically as figured out as it's going to get, so it's just a question of who has the best mechanics and experience/training with it, SC2 is a long way from getting there, and thus is volatile. So... doesn't matter how good you are, nobody is completely dominating the scene. MC is the closest there is, and he got 2-0'd by Polt in the GSL and got knocked to the up and down matches.
Maybe 6 months, maybe not at all.
Brood War is figured out? Do you even watch BW? Every time someone makes a statement like that, the matchups get revolutionized again. In the past year alone there have been multiple metagame shifts, with the most recent one being heavy queen play against mech ZvT in the past few weeks.
You misunderstood: I didn't say that it is completely figured out, nothing to learn, just that by now, it's about as figured out as it is going to get. There will be new developments, but it's not so much a question of "woah, new shit, this'll take months to figure out how to deal with it" as it is "Okay, this is unusual and unexpected, not really normal, but I've got some good ideas." Sure, there's always a little bit more to learn, but these developments aren't HUGE glaring shifts that massively change everything, people aren't suddenly discovering super effective new cheeses that kill better players really early on, etc., and SC2 is still being patched.
There's no question that Flash would be an excellent player of SC2, and definitely has the potential to be one of the best period, but I'm not certain that he'd show up, and in 3 months be winning everything left and right.
LOL please stop talking out of your ass if you don't keep up with BW. BW metagame has changed more than SC2 in the past 4 months
it seems like the BW pros don't have a huge edge due to the fact playing the game and doing simple macro things is so much easier, I think flash, jaedong, bisu etc..... will do great if they switch but won't have a huge edge
Flash is seriously a war crime (game crime?) when used in any SC-related game. Like, I think that his mechanics would give him just such a sizable advantage whatever race he played that he'd be fine in SC2.
On April 30 2011 13:45 rift wrote: As there are fewer differentiators of skill in SC2 I can see Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork losing games or even matches to weaker players often. I don't think it's possible to become dominant in the same way considering the nature of the game.
Imagine the following scenario: Flash is invited to TSL4. Lag is not an issue at this point. Could he be upset and knocked out early by a player generally considered worse? I could definitely see it happening, and it wasn't a possibility at WCG for any of them. The differences between players are just too thin.
Don't be ridiculous, Flash knocked out of a tournament early by a no-name player? That would never happen! You're more likely to find a ssak of pianos on the street!
Flash's decision making ability in BW is borderline hacking. In SC2, he will overwhelm everything....With the improved mechanics system, I have little doubt Flash can perform the perfect macro and micro that can only be theoretically accomplished by bots.
On April 30 2011 14:42 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I hope Flash would go SC2 during his peak, not delay so much further...
This is my hope aha. But maybe it won't happen?
Are you sure you want a Flash in peak form to be in SC2?
On April 30 2011 13:46 dukethegold wrote: If you are a champion, you need to maintain self-esteem. Of course MC can't admit to others or himself that if Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork switched, the current SC2 lineup would be obliterated within three months.
It wouldn't, it took the current players a hilariously long time to learn and master all the timings as well as they have, and the game keeps shifting. The differences is, Brood War is basically as figured out as it's going to get, so it's just a question of who has the best mechanics and experience/training with it, SC2 is a long way from getting there, and thus is volatile. So... doesn't matter how good you are, nobody is completely dominating the scene. MC is the closest there is, and he got 2-0'd by Polt in the GSL and got knocked to the up and down matches.
Maybe 6 months, maybe not at all.
I disagree about EVERYTHING you just said. Brood War players adapt to constant shifts in metagame on monthly basis. OSL/MSL/PL host their own unique map pool, preventing stagnation of metagame shifts. Transition from BW to SC2 is fairly simple, as Nada once said in his interview. 6 months? Don't even joke. That's an eternity in BW.
On April 30 2011 14:42 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I hope Flash would go SC2 during his peak, not delay so much further...
This is my hope aha. But maybe it won't happen?
Wat I remember you always being a big BW fan ;; why u want Flash to switch over hes too good for sc2.
I am BoxeR fan, Flash fan. BW...no aha. Because that time SC2 is not out. I went watch SC2 at GSL season 2 when I am lucky to find out BoxeR playing in season 2. The 1st SC2 game I have watched is Full set BoxeR vs NesTea where Nestea win 4:0 or 3:0. Anyway BoxeR is 0 . Ah..
Now I totally watch SC2, because better graphic? New game? I wan Flash to be part of it too, so I can support him. If he play SC2 I will not support other players anymore. Only pure Flash keke.
On April 30 2011 14:42 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I hope Flash would go SC2 during his peak, not delay so much further...
This is my hope aha. But maybe it won't happen?
Wat I remember you always being a big BW fan ;; why u want Flash to switch over hes too good for sc2.
I am BoxeR fan, Flash fan. BW...no aha. Because that time SC2 is not out. I went watch SC2 at GSL season 2 when I am lucky to find out BoxeR playing in season 2. The 1st SC2 game I have watched is Full set BoxeR vs NesTea where Nestea win 4:0 or 3:0. Anyway BoxeR is 0 . Ah..
Now I totally watch SC2, because better graphic? New game? I wan Flash to be part of it too, so I can support him. If he play SC2 I will not support other players anymore. Only pure Flash keke.
There is no incentive for him to go for SC2. Flash makes ~300-400k a year in BW. SC2 is tiny/peanuts in Korea, whereas BW is major(Beyond E-famous). And really, it would be such a waste if Flash were to play SC2.
Either way thanks for the interview, it is interesting though that half of the replies here about the article stating that MC is the best, who cares?Just read the contents lol.
On April 30 2011 14:42 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I hope Flash would go SC2 during his peak, not delay so much further...
This is my hope aha. But maybe it won't happen?
Wat I remember you always being a big BW fan ;; why u want Flash to switch over hes too good for sc2.
I am BoxeR fan, Flash fan. BW...no aha. Because that time SC2 is not out. I went watch SC2 at GSL season 2 when I am lucky to find out BoxeR playing in season 2. The 1st SC2 game I have watched is Full set BoxeR vs NesTea where Nestea win 4:0 or 3:0. Anyway BoxeR is 0 . Ah..
Now I totally watch SC2, because better graphic? New game? I wan Flash to be part of it too, so I can support him. If he play SC2 I will not support other players anymore. Only pure Flash keke.
There is no incentive for him to go for SC2. Flash makes ~300-400k a year in BW. SC2 is tiny/peanuts in Korea, whereas BW is major(Beyond E-famous). And really, it would be such a waste if Flash were to play SC2.
Either way thanks for the interview, it is interesting though that half of the replies here about the article stating that MC is the best, who cares?Just read the contents lol.
Aw, meaning Flash will nv switch to SC2? Oh dear... Big upset for me. I might watch back BW scene to see Flash play again
On April 30 2011 15:11 Megaliskuu wrote: Kekek xiao maybe in a few years ^^
Few years? That time I am already old. What happened to Megalisk???
On April 30 2011 14:42 XiaoJoyce- wrote: I hope Flash would go SC2 during his peak, not delay so much further...
This is my hope aha. But maybe it won't happen?
Wat I remember you always being a big BW fan ;; why u want Flash to switch over hes too good for sc2.
I am BoxeR fan, Flash fan. BW...no aha. Because that time SC2 is not out. I went watch SC2 at GSL season 2 when I am lucky to find out BoxeR playing in season 2. The 1st SC2 game I have watched is Full set BoxeR vs NesTea where Nestea win 4:0 or 3:0. Anyway BoxeR is 0 . Ah..
Now I totally watch SC2, because better graphic? New game? I wan Flash to be part of it too, so I can support him. If he play SC2 I will not support other players anymore. Only pure Flash keke.
There is no incentive for him to go for SC2. Flash makes ~300-400k a year in BW. SC2 is tiny/peanuts in Korea, whereas BW is major(Beyond E-famous). And really, it would be such a waste if Flash were to play SC2.
Either way thanks for the interview, it is interesting though that half of the replies here about the article stating that MC is the best, who cares?Just read the contents lol.
Aw, meaning Flash will nv switch to SC2? Oh dear... Big upset for me. I might watch back BW scene to see Flash play again
I wonder if the skill ceiling is enough for a player like Flash in sc2? Only time will tell. I'd love to see some old wached up pros that are still capable of amazing games in sc2: Best, Jangbi.
You can't possibly understand how good Flash is if you haven't followed Brood war. For example, Idra played as a pro a couple of years for Estro and then for CJ and I don't think he would have taken a game against Flash even if he got to try 50 times, literally.
On April 30 2011 10:55 Onlinejaguar wrote: Saying that Flash would do well in SC2 is kind of an obvious statement.
Would have to agree with this. Anybody who has seen a FPVOD of Jaedong or Flash can see they are on a different level than even players like MVP (best bw player to come to sc2).
Nada/July?
But yeah its a real no brainer if you had to pick someone from BW to do well in SC2 it would be Flash or JD.
Nada and July are legends, but past their prime and would have gotten smashed by MVP.
Maybe July, but July coulda beaten him when he was still practicing anyday. Nada smashed Hyvaa in his last BW game iirc.
July suffered frm lack of practice ( and partly switching from SC2) Nada was honestly sick of playing BW.
I think Flash loves Brood War too much to even consider switching. I mean, in his interview last year he said that even when he isn't in front of a computer he plays games with himself inside his head. He just loves the game.
He's also making more money on salary alone than he could get from SC2, even if he won every single tournament.
On April 30 2011 13:48 Whitewing wrote:Brood War is basically as figured out as it's going to get
This is just so wrong... ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now. Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way. ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing.
On April 30 2011 11:16 Headshot wrote: Wait, MC actually lost to Hyungjoon? o.O I guess I need to finish that. It was just so 'meh' compred to Nal_rA's Oldboy.
No... i am sure MKP+??? lost to Hyungjoon+shark in a showmatch 2v2, lol was funny
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
......MVP was better than Boxer and Nada at their peaks? Do you even know what Starcraft is?
On April 30 2011 13:46 dukethegold wrote: If you are a champion, you need to maintain self-esteem. Of course MC can't admit to others or himself that if Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork switched, the current SC2 lineup would be obliterated within three months.
It wouldn't, it took the current players a hilariously long time to learn and master all the timings as well as they have, and the game keeps shifting. The differences is, Brood War is basically as figured out as it's going to get, so it's just a question of who has the best mechanics and experience/training with it, SC2 is a long way from getting there, and thus is volatile. So... doesn't matter how good you are, nobody is completely dominating the scene. MC is the closest there is, and he got 2-0'd by Polt in the GSL and got knocked to the up and down matches.
Maybe 6 months, maybe not at all.
Brood War is figured out? Do you even watch BW? Every time someone makes a statement like that, the matchups get revolutionized again. In the past year alone there have been multiple metagame shifts, with the most recent one being heavy queen play against mech ZvT in the past few weeks.
You misunderstood: I didn't say that it is completely figured out, nothing to learn, just that by now, it's about as figured out as it is going to get. There will be new developments, but it's not so much a question of "woah, new shit, this'll take months to figure out how to deal with it" as it is "Okay, this is unusual and unexpected, not really normal, but I've got some good ideas." Sure, there's always a little bit more to learn, but these developments aren't HUGE glaring shifts that massively change everything, people aren't suddenly discovering super effective new cheeses that kill better players really early on, etc., and SC2 is still being patched.
There's no question that Flash would be an excellent player of SC2, and definitely has the potential to be one of the best period, but I'm not certain that he'd show up, and in 3 months be winning everything left and right.
You need to go watch some BW. It's probably developing at the same rate SC2 is, maybe even faster. Mech just got owned in the face by queens and terrans are trying to figure out a way to deal. Mech revolution happened a mere 2 years ago, that's like 10 years since BW was made and it's still changing. The list of builds and changes in strategy could probably stretch at least half a page so to say "there's nothing to learn" is clearly being stated by someone who has no idea what's going on in BW. I'd say Flash can roflstomp most (90%) players in the first week and completely dominate everyone by week two just based on pure mechanics. Every chrono boost used, never building up,, never missing a larve inject, mules coming down 100% on time, that's what you should be expecting from the man they call "God".
On April 30 2011 11:45 intoyourrainbOW wrote: i think these 1st gen sc2 players are making the most of what they can as fast as possible. if more prominent bw players transfer to sc2, their status would be quickly overshadowed. their timing window for success is closing ever so gradually on a daily basis. they know this in the back of their minds, and as each day passes, they grow that much more fearful. DUN DUN DUN.
Prominent players are not going to switch, so it doesn't matter. They are in a fine position... i'd be more worried about the many dedicated youngsters who are willing to put in far more time than the older players.
Eventually, they will switch. It's only a matter of time. Although it won't happen in any longer than 2-3 years imo, and most likely 5 years or so.
The question of they will switch or not also depends on other factors, such as SC2 surviving long enough as an e-sports to get the attention of them and them having the reason for switch...Perhaps going out of form too much, or just getting bored with the game, or just trying out new things..For now as I said I do not think it will happen for a looong time.
On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong.
Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way.
Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even.
ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing.
what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas...
Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech.
this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, so less players dare to do it, since he is jaedong he has done it properly.
On April 30 2011 16:15 GolemMadness wrote: I didn't really watch MVP as a Brood War player, but looking at his stats, his overall record was 39%... How is this good in any way?
If you transplanted Boxer et al in their primes to modern bw, they'd do worse than 39%. The point being, bw has evolved so much from when the past legends earned their legacy that the absolute skill level is much higher. The old legends (except for the hypothetical case of an inspired Nada, maybe) can't and couldn't keep up with the newer generations of players.
On April 30 2011 16:15 GolemMadness wrote: I didn't really watch MVP as a Brood War player, but looking at his stats, his overall record was 39%... How is this good in any way?
If you transplanted Boxer et al in their primes to modern bw, they'd do worse than 39%. The point being, bw has evolved so much from when the past legends earned their legacy that the absolute skill level is much higher. The old legends (except for the hypothetical case of an inspired Nada, maybe) can't and couldn't keep up with the newer generations of players.
i feel like that's an impossible thing to say. If you took the exact way boxer played in his prime, and dropped him into the modern scene, maybe.
if you took boxer as a person and dropped him in, who's to say he wouldn't work hard enough or have the brilliant insight he needed to be the best there is?
There have already been some amazing broodwar players to come to sc2. July, Nada, and Boxer have already proven that BW pros can transition.
HOWEVER, this is a different game. If Flash decided to switch, I don't think he would have nearly the same level of success at this point. It's just too different of a game, and the players that are the best right now have proven to be the best consistently in SC2. The game is a bit volatile, and the metagame is changing drastically, but the top players always seem to stay ahead with respect to build orders and strategies.
On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote: I think Flash loves Brood War too much to even consider switching. I mean, in his interview last year he said that even when he isn't in front of a computer he plays games with himself inside his head. He just loves the game.
He's also making more money on salary alone than he could get from SC2, even if he won every single tournament.
On April 30 2011 13:48 Whitewing wrote:Brood War is basically as figured out as it's going to get
This is just so wrong... ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now. Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way. ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing.
Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech.
Brood War is still evolving and there is no sign of it stopping.
No, really, those matchups haven't noticably changed, people are still basically doing the same things with minor tweaks. That queen build isn't new either, just rare.
On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong.
On April 30 2011 16:15 GolemMadness wrote: I didn't really watch MVP as a Brood War player, but looking at his stats, his overall record was 39%... How is this good in any way?
If you transplanted Boxer et al in their primes to modern bw, they'd do worse than 39%. The point being, bw has evolved so much from when the past legends earned their legacy that the absolute skill level is much higher. The old legends (except for the hypothetical case of an inspired Nada, maybe) can't and couldn't keep up with the newer generations of players.
That's ridiculous. Yeah, if you suddenly put them 8 years in the future and they tried to play exactly the same they wouldn't do too well, but they were the best at their time for a reason. Boxer couldn't keep up because he was 30 years old and was in the military for 2 years, so he was far past his prime.
On April 30 2011 16:28 Loodah wrote: I'm sorry to anyone I offend -
There have already been some amazing broodwar players to come to sc2. July, Nada, and Boxer have already proven that BW pros can transition.
HOWEVER, this is a different game. If Flash decided to switch, I don't think he would have nearly the same level of success at this point. It's just too different of a game, and the players that are the best right now have proven to be the best consistently in SC2. The game is a bit volatile, and the metagame is changing drastically, but the top players always seem to stay ahead with respect to build orders and strategies.
man, how many times do we have to repeat that july nada boxer were only amazing during their respective times.
players in BW have gotten so much better over the years. comparing Flash to July/Nada/Boxer at the time they left BW for SC2, they'd probably have a hard time taking even a game off Flash. the difference would be farrr greater than the difference between MC and some random code A player.
one thing to note, is it's not simply that july/nada/boxer were really good then their skills dropped. it's more that other ppl just kept getting better and better and they couldn't keep up.
what's truly hacks about Flash isn't just his mechanics, but moreso his game sense. he sometimes plays like he has maphacks on. this is why Flash would do so well in sc2 compared to someone like Baby who's famous for his multitasking.
and ppl saying BW is all figured out should stop spewing random shit out of their asses b/c clearly they don't watch BW.
On April 30 2011 16:15 GolemMadness wrote: I didn't really watch MVP as a Brood War player, but looking at his stats, his overall record was 39%... How is this good in any way?
If you transplanted Boxer et al in their primes to modern bw, they'd do worse than 39%. The point being, bw has evolved so much from when the past legends earned their legacy that the absolute skill level is much higher. The old legends (except for the hypothetical case of an inspired Nada, maybe) can't and couldn't keep up with the newer generations of players.
That's ridiculous. Yeah, if you suddenly put them 8 years in the future and they tried to play exactly the same they wouldn't do too well, but they were the best at their time for a reason. Boxer couldn't keep up because he was 30 years old and was in the military for 2 years, so he was far past his prime.
It's not ridiculous to think that the overall skill level of players has increased drastically as BW developed. 90% of the progamers now are just better players than the progamers from the pre-2005 era.
On April 30 2011 16:15 GolemMadness wrote: I didn't really watch MVP as a Brood War player, but looking at his stats, his overall record was 39%... How is this good in any way?
If you transplanted Boxer et al in their primes to modern bw, they'd do worse than 39%. The point being, bw has evolved so much from when the past legends earned their legacy that the absolute skill level is much higher. The old legends (except for the hypothetical case of an inspired Nada, maybe) can't and couldn't keep up with the newer generations of players.
That's ridiculous. Yeah, if you suddenly put them 8 years in the future and they tried to play exactly the same they wouldn't do too well, but they were the best at their time for a reason. Boxer couldn't keep up because he was 30 years old and was in the military for 2 years, so he was far past his prime.
Just watch a SC game at like 2002 and compare the current BW games. The skill level is much higher.Boxer at his very best will still never beat TBLS.
On April 30 2011 16:15 GolemMadness wrote: I didn't really watch MVP as a Brood War player, but looking at his stats, his overall record was 39%... How is this good in any way?
If you transplanted Boxer et al in their primes to modern bw, they'd do worse than 39%. The point being, bw has evolved so much from when the past legends earned their legacy that the absolute skill level is much higher. The old legends (except for the hypothetical case of an inspired Nada, maybe) can't and couldn't keep up with the newer generations of players.
That's ridiculous. Yeah, if you suddenly put them 8 years in the future and they tried to play exactly the same they wouldn't do too well, but they were the best at their time for a reason. Boxer couldn't keep up because he was 30 years old and was in the military for 2 years, so he was far past his prime.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
......MVP was better than Boxer and Nada at their peaks? Do you even know what Starcraft is?
Anyway, they were the best in their time because they found certain innovations before anyone else, and happened to have the technical/strategic ability to continue the innovation for however long. Boxer, July, Nada etc were past their primes because they couldn't keep up mentally and physically. Even if they tried to apply themselves 100% to bw again, they don't have the same favorable confluence of factors for success. Their innovations have long become textbook, or even outdated. Not that I'm trying to blackmouth them at all, but I don't think it's realistic to think they'd become very competitive if only they applied themselves.
On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong.
Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way.
Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even.
ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing.
what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas...
Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech.
this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, since he is jaedong he has done it properly.
Bisu is 8-2 in his last 10 and his only losses were against Flash. That's slumping?
4+ years of bw career and you show me last 10 games as an indicator? I am talking about last 1.5 year... time and slump margins are longer in bw compared to sc2 right now, if you didn't know
On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong.
Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way.
Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even.
ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing.
what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas...
Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech.
this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, since he is jaedong he has done it properly.
Bisu is 8-2 in his last 10 and his only losses were against Flash. That's slumping?
4+ years of bw career and you show me last 10 games as an indicator? I am talking about last 1.5 year...
You haven't been following BW at all then. In the past half year he has definitely resurged. 75% winrate in the just-ended Winner's League, 90.91% in PL, 80.6% overall in team leagues. Sure, he got knocked out of the MSL recently but he was in the sickest group of death of all time with JD, Flash, and Sea. He's broken his PvZ Elo peak and basically has the same winrate as Flash. How can you say he's barely out of his slump?
In response to your previous post, ZvZ has been going to Hive tech with basically every single unit used in the past few months. Queen tech is not one of the most known ways to beat mech.. Jaedong wasn't even the first to use it. He tried to use it against bio a while back but said it took too much APM. It was the Woongjin zergs who really started it (Soulkey, Zero, Crazy-Hydra). If it was so well known, why have zergs been having so much trouble with the TvZ bio->mech transition that was revolutionized just 1.5 years ago?
On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong.
Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way.
Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even.
ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing.
what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas...
Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech.
this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, since he is jaedong he has done it properly.
Bisu is 8-2 in his last 10 and his only losses were against Flash. That's slumping?
4+ years of bw career and you show me last 10 games as an indicator? I am talking about last 1.5 year... time and slump margins are longer in bw compared to sc2 right now, if you didn't know
I wasn't following the BW scene back in Bisu's heyday so I can't compare his current strength to his prime, but Bisu has been absolutely worthy of carrying the TBLS mantle ever since the start of the 10-11 proleague season (60W - 20L=75% win rate over the last 6 months). I don't know if that's long enough by your standards, but for me personally I feel like the slump is a thing of the past.
Great interview by SK, really nice but WOW, theyre media player really sucks balls. I had to restart it atleast 15 times until i was able to watch the whole interview.
And that its Subbed and not Dubbed is a big plus in any korean interview! When its dubbed you dont get to hear his real voice which is kinda a letdown.
On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong.
Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way.
Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even.
ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing.
what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas...
Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech.
this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, since he is jaedong he has done it properly.
Bisu is 8-2 in his last 10 and his only losses were against Flash. That's slumping?
4+ years of bw career and you show me last 10 games as an indicator? I am talking about last 1.5 year... time and slump margins are longer in bw compared to sc2 right now, if you didn't know
between 2010/4/25 and 2011/4/25 Record: 85 wins - 39 losses (68.55%)
between 2009/10/1 and 2011/4/25 Record: 118 wins - 61 losses (65.92%)
those percentages are no slouch and hardly indicate a slump hes been out of his slump for some time
On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong.
Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way.
Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even.
ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing.
what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas...
Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech.
this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, since he is jaedong he has done it properly.
Bisu is 8-2 in his last 10 and his only losses were against Flash. That's slumping?
4+ years of bw career and you show me last 10 games as an indicator? I am talking about last 1.5 year...
You haven't been following BW at all then. In the past half year he has definitely resurged. 75% winrate in the just-ended Winner's League, 90.91% in PL, 80.6% overall in team leagues. Sure, he got knocked out of the MSL recently but he was in the sickest group of death of all time with JD, Flash, and Sea. He's broken his PvZ Elo peak and basically has the same winrate as Flash. How can you say he's barely out of his slump?
In response to your previous post, ZvZ has been going to Hive tech with basically every single unit used in the past few months. Queen tech is not one of the most known ways to beat mech.. Jaedong wasn't even the first to use it. He tried to use it against bio a while back but said it took too much APM. It was the Woongjin zergs who really started it (Soulkey, Zero, Crazy-Hydra). If it was so well known, why have zergs been having so much trouble with the TvZ bio->mech transition that was revolutionized just 1.5 years ago?
I can testify for the stats he listed above. Bisu's accomplishment in Proleague is beyond Jaedong's reach and ahead of Flash. Recently Bisu won the Winner League playoff for SKT by defeating both Jaedong and Flash in the decisive sets. The only reason he is out of MSL is because he was forced to play against Flash twice while SKT refused to give Bisu any time to practice due to schedule conflict with the proleague.
As one who followed both BW and SC2 closely, I can state that the true top players in BW are at a completely different level from the current SC2 players. It's not just inhuman mechanics, but also map hacking like decision making, quick adaptability to metagame shifts, creativity and god like reaction speed, combined with their own distinctive playing style that make the top level BW players so different.
I have no doubt whatsoever. NONE, that if one of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork/Fantasy transit, that individual will dominate GSL.
The reason they are not doing that is because they receive more money and greater recognition by staying with their BW team. They are already sitting at the top with trophies, huge contracts and legions of fangirls. What the hell does SC2 have that can attract them even slightly?
On April 30 2011 17:06 Alpina wrote: Ofc Flash would be best in SC2. The only question is how much better would he be than everyone else?
Given that his strenght is not a big APM and its just solid mechanics and map hacking decision making I'd guess he would do awesomely good. I wonder if he would stick to Terran or if he would switch races hmmm...
The only was to appropriately judge who is better would be to build a time machine, go back and get Boxer and Flash before they had ever played StarCraft and then drop them off back in 1998 and see who becomes better.
The entire endeavor is completely pointless and no objective statements can possibly be made. At best, you get informed conjecture, but much more likely you will get nothing more than the mindless bleating of slobbering fanboys.
That being said, my money is on time-traveling Boxer. That guy's brain just doesn't work like a regular person's. Flash might be better mechanically, but in a fresh, unexplored game setting, I think Boxer's innovation, creativity and friggin' magical mojo would come out on top.
On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong.
Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way.
Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even.
ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing.
what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas...
Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech.
this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, since he is jaedong he has done it properly.
Bisu is 8-2 in his last 10 and his only losses were against Flash. That's slumping?
4+ years of bw career and you show me last 10 games as an indicator? I am talking about last 1.5 year... time and slump margins are longer in bw compared to sc2 right now, if you didn't know
lol...you clearly don't watch BW at all. Bisu's been on top of his game for a while now
The only was to appropriately judge who is better would be to build a time machine, go back and get Boxer and Flash before they had ever played StarCraft and then drop them off back in 1998 and see who becomes better.
The entire endeavor is completely pointless and no objective statements can possibly be made. At best, you get informed conjecture, but much more likely you will get nothing more than the mindless bleating of slobbering fanboys.
That being said, my money is on time-traveling Boxer. That guy's brain just doesn't work like a regular person's. Flash might be better mechanically, but in a fresh, unexplored game setting, I think Boxer's innovation, creativity and friggin' magical mojo would come out on top.
SC2 is new, unfortunately Boxer is not on top.
In a dual interview with both Boxer and Savior, both stated that their game capabilities actually increased after their slump. It's just that they are unable to catch up to the new generation of Brood War players that they failed to restore their past glory.
- If you can go back to your prime do you think you can win? ▲ Boxer: That is just a thought. Its more of an excuse if I say stuff like that (laughs). If 2 players play extremely well the game can be the best game ever. However, era when I was prime and the era when Savior was prime is different in skill level. However if that does happen, I think it can be a very big issue and fun. ▲ Savior: When I lose, I'm not the type that says to myself "If I was at my prime he would've lost." I never thought anything like that. I don't like imagining stuff like "if this was 1 year ago." Its just pointless thinking.
- Still though, if this can happen what do you think will be the result? ▲ Boxer: I cant say, because I think the me right now is alot better than when I was at my prime long ago. Thats how much the skill average increased. Even though if I was at my prime I would lose. ▲ Savior: I believe the same. I think I'm better now than I was at my prime (LOL ANTI-SAVIOR FANBOYS ARE RIGHT). These days everyone is so good, they don't get shaken up mentally either. Aftergame interviews of winners all sound like they were mentally fine. Thats how much better players got.
On April 30 2011 17:19 XiaoJoyce- wrote: What? Now Bisu is top? No longer Flash? Or just top of his game...
The number of wins: Bisu. Win rate: Bisu and Flash are head to head. But in term of gameplay, it's still Flash. Flash's game sense is not human. But even Flash is not invincible. He just got defeated by Best (again) couple days ago in a long drawn out game.
The only was to appropriately judge who is better would be to build a time machine, go back and get Boxer and Flash before they had ever played StarCraft and then drop them off back in 1998 and see who becomes better.
The entire endeavor is completely pointless and no objective statements can possibly be made. At best, you get informed conjecture, but much more likely you will get nothing more than the mindless bleating of slobbering fanboys.
That being said, my money is on time-traveling Boxer. That guy's brain just doesn't work like a regular person's. Flash might be better mechanically, but in a fresh, unexplored game setting, I think Boxer's innovation, creativity and friggin' magical mojo would come out on top.
While I do agree that Flash's success is built upon the innovations made by Boxer, Nada, oov and others, I disagree that Flash is only better mechanically. He has by far the best game sense of any pro. So much so that people often mention how it seems like he is maphacking because he never misses anything. He nearly always scans in the right place at the right time, intercepts drops, and spots tech. He's also no slouch when it comes to innovation himself. I mean, he even has a build named after him in PvT (Flash build - double armory anti-carrier), as well as being the leading force for terrans in the past few years. While other terrans struggle to adapt to new strategies, Flash comes up with new builds and tactics that other terrans copy to win games. While his innovations in other matchups haven't been as revolutionary as PvT, if you watch the games from the recent MSLs or OSLs where he took gold, you'll see some new strategies that weren't really used before him.
On April 30 2011 17:19 XiaoJoyce- wrote: What? Now Bisu is top? No longer Flash? Or just top of his game...
The number of wins: Bisu. Win rate: Bisu and Flash are head to head. But in term of gameplay, it's still Flash. Flash's game sense is not human. But even Flash is not invincible. He just got defeated by Best (again) couple days ago in a long drawn out game.
Agreed. It seems like Best's style is strong against Flash when Flash decides to be lazy and not harass, though. He's the only protoss player I can think of who has an even(or close to even) record with Flash aside from Stork.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it.
MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Which is pretty badass from the people he beat to get that far in that tournament. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself.
Flash is a robot; he is good at all games obviously. Seriously though, it's obvious the skills transfer over. July, Nada, MVP, etc all are tier 1 players and Flash/JD/Bisu would all do amazingly well if and when they decide to switch.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it.
MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself.
Not really sure why you are using a game from when MVP had only recently become a pro when people are talking about the time SC2 came out. FYI MVP played his first televised game on Apr 13 of 2008. Yes, Nada is more accomplished. However, when SC2 came out, he was barely even active for WMF. If you look at the year before he switched over, he was 50%, with his only notable win being over Hiya. Now if you look at MVP's record the year before he switched over, he had only a 39% winrate, but the quality of his opponents was much higher. Flash, Fantasy and Skyhigh were basically the top 3 TvTers at the time. Light and Sea weren't slouches either. Stork, Best, Snow and Kal are basically the top PvTers. Taking games off Flash, Stork, Best, and Effort show how much better MVP was than Nada in the year before they switched to SC2.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it.
MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Which is pretty badass from the people he beat to get that far in that tournament. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself.
Looking at your post history, it seems you didn't watch or follow bw much, but its ok. The point being made here, is AT THE TIME THAT THEY SWITCHED OVER, not 2008 before Nada entered his eternal slump, MVP was better, I don't deny that Nada had a far more successful career, and even showed signs of life in 2010 with wins against illustrious players such as Hiya, Turn, and Hyvaa, but past accomplishments don't mean anything now, July's golden mouse didn't help him in the last 2 years of his bw career. Also poor MVP was a woongjin Terran, its not his fault he had it rough.
On April 30 2011 17:42 Doodsmack wrote: Lol this thread brought all the BW elitists into the SC2 forum. Don't tread on their turf, guys.
I'm getting sick of people using "bw elitists" just to parrot a buzzword. In this case, I don't think it's a bad thing for the sc2 generation to be informed in their opinions. The argument that "great bw legends converted and aren't doing well, therefore bw skills don't mean much" simply doesn't hold water. The reason the great bw legends and certain A-team pros switched over is because they didn't have a future in bw, at least relative to sc2.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it.
MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself.
Not really sure why you are using a game from when MVP had only recently become a pro when people are talking about the time SC2 came out. FYI MVP played his first televised game on Apr 13 of 2008. Yes, Nada is more accomplished. However, when SC2 came out, he was barely even active for WMF. If you look at the year before he switched over, he was 50%, with his only notable win being over Hiya. Now if you look at MVP's record the year before he switched over, he had only a 39% winrate, but the quality of his opponents was much higher. Flash, Fantasy and Skyhigh were basically the top 3 TvTers at the time. Light and Sea weren't slouches either. Stork, Best, Snow and Kal are basically the top PvTers. Taking games off Flash, Stork, Best, and Effort show how much better MVP was than Nada in the year before they switched to SC2.
What are you smoking? Can I have some? Taking games off people in 1 tournament or two doesn't suddenly make you better than a legend. At least Nada won the last game he played. In wins alone Nada still has more games than MVP in his entire career. Nada won the last game he played in broodwar. MVP hasn't won 6 championships (yet). In a few years talk to me again about this. MVP showcased the potential Woojin saw and you see. That's it.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it.
MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Which is pretty badass from the people he beat to get that far in that tournament. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself.
You linked one game that happened an eternity ago when Nada was still decent and MVP was a rookie. You sure proved everyone wrong.
Might as well pull up that video of Boxer nuking Killer a year ago to make the claim that Boxer > modern A teamers.
MVP was the buttcrack joke of BW for almost his entire career. He was the soul of the infamous "Woongjin Terran". Impressively, right before he switched to SC2, he managed to pull a Hyuk and got to MSL round of 8, even taking a game off Flash before being completely eradicated in the next two games.
I give credit where it is due. But let's be honest here. MVP's BW accomplishment is even less than Hyuk. Many many random players of variable reputation had achievements comparable or better than MVP.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it.
MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Which is pretty badass from the people he beat to get that far in that tournament. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself.
that's 2008. JANGBI was good in 2008 and look at how fucking terrible he is now. MVP was a woongjin terran, but he was still a PL regular, just had terrible tvt, which also makes up over half his games.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it.
MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Which is pretty badass from the people he beat to get that far in that tournament. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself.
Looking at your post history, it seems you didn't watch or follow bw much, but its ok. The point being made here, is AT THE TIME THAT THEY SWITCHED OVER, not 2008 before Nada entered his eternal slump, MVP was better, I don't deny that Nada had a far more successful career, and even showed signs of life in 2010 with wins against illustrious players such as Hiya, Turn, and Hyvaa, but past accomplishments don't mean anything now, July's golden mouse didn't help him in the last 2 years of his bw career. Also poor MVP was a woongjin Terran, its not his fault he had it rough.
No I didn't post on this board before the new game was released. You got me with your expert detective skills. MVP showed his potential. Give this a rest.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it.
MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Which is pretty badass from the people he beat to get that far in that tournament. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself.
You linked one game that happened an eternity ago when Nada was still decent and MVP was a rookie. You sure proved everyone wrong.
Might as well pull up that video of Boxer nuking Killer a year ago to make the claim that Boxer > modern A teamers.
So far the MVP fan club has one round of 8 finish to it's credit and after that it's excuses.
It's silly for people to make assumptions like these.
I've followed Broodwar for 7 years.
When or IF flash moves to sc2, we will see if he has success. I don't think he will transition though. Those who say things like, "Have you seen him play?!?!" or "He has maphack game sense!!" - Yes I have seen him play, and game sense in SC1 is different from that of sc2. I'm not going to make outlandish statements like ZOMG FLASH WOULD DOMINATE GSL! No... that actually makes your opinion and argument completely irrelevant.
Also, speaking to the SC1 elitism, you can obviously see it. Saying things like zomg ____(Insert top sc1 player) would obviously dominate gsl is basically you saying that SC1 players are just better at a game they don't play.
This is a different game folks. Are there similarities? Yes. There are similarities between SC2 and any other economic RTS in existence. If you can't accept that it's a different game, and you can't learn to separate SC1 high level play from SC2 high level play, then you are making completely irrelevant statements.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it.
MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself.
Not really sure why you are using a game from when MVP had only recently become a pro when people are talking about the time SC2 came out. FYI MVP played his first televised game on Apr 13 of 2008. Yes, Nada is more accomplished. However, when SC2 came out, he was barely even active for WMF. If you look at the year before he switched over, he was 50%, with his only notable win being over Hiya. Now if you look at MVP's record the year before he switched over, he had only a 39% winrate, but the quality of his opponents was much higher. Flash, Fantasy and Skyhigh were basically the top 3 TvTers at the time. Light and Sea weren't slouches either. Stork, Best, Snow and Kal are basically the top PvTers. Taking games off Flash, Stork, Best, and Effort show how much better MVP was than Nada in the year before they switched to SC2.
What are you smoking? Can I have some? Taking games off people in 1 tournament or two doesn't suddenly make you better than a legend. At least Nada won the last game he played. In wins alone Nada still has more games than MVP in his entire career. Nada won the last game he played in broodwar. MVP hasn't won 6 championships (yet). In a few years talk to me again about this. MVP showcased the potential Woojin saw and you see. That's it.
You're confusing things. Is(Was) Nada more accomplished than MVP in BW? Absolutely. Was he better? At certain periods of time, yes. Was he better at the period right before they switched over? No. You can't say that because Nada had more wins in his lifetime career that he was a better player than MVP before they switched. You have to look at the period in which they got their accomplishments. I'm of the opinion that Nada at his peak was better than MVP ever was in SC2. However, in the year before SC2 came out. MVP was clearly the superior player.
On April 30 2011 17:57 dukethegold wrote: MVP was the buttcrack joke of BW for almost his entire career. He was the soul of the infamous "Woongjin Terran". Impressively, right before he switched to SC2, he managed to pull a Hyuk and got to MSL round of 8, even taking a game off Flash before being completely eradicated in the next two games.
I give credit where it is due. But let's be honest here. MVP's BW accomplishment is even less than Hyuk. Many many random players of variable reputation had achievements comparable or better than MVP.
Agreed. MVP was pretty much a joke in BW. He has no accomplishments to speak of. However, skillwise he was good enough to be sent out on a regular basis, and as I said in my previous post, he took games off nearly all of the top vTers in the scene at the time. The only player I'd say was missing from his roster is JD.
On April 30 2011 18:03 Loodah wrote: Also, speaking to the SC1 elitism, you can obviously see it. Saying things like zomg ____(Insert top sc1 player) would obviously dominate gsl is basically you saying that SC1 players are just better at a game they don't play.
This is a different game folks. Are there similarities? Yes. There are similarities between SC2 and any other economic RTS in existence. If you can't accept that it's a different game, and you can't learn to separate SC1 high level play from SC2 high level play, then you are making completely irrelevant statements.
They're not better at the game they don't play, but they would be better IF they played it.
The accusation of elitism is really just a cheap defensive mechanism to discredit people who make a statement based on evidence and common sense. By evidence, I mean the skill and background of people who dominate SC2 currently and the reason they dominate.
On April 30 2011 18:03 Loodah wrote: Also, speaking to the SC1 elitism, you can obviously see it. Saying things like zomg ____(Insert top sc1 player) would obviously dominate gsl is basically you saying that SC1 players are just better at a game they don't play.
This is a different game folks. Are there similarities? Yes. There are similarities between SC2 and any other economic RTS in existence. If you can't accept that it's a different game, and you can't learn to separate SC1 high level play from SC2 high level play, then you are making completely irrelevant statements.
They're not better at the game they don't play, but they would be better IF they played it.
The accusation of elitism is really just a cheap defensive mechanism to discredit people who make a statement based on evidence and common sense. By evidence, I mean the skill and background of people who dominate SC2 currently and the reason they dominate.
There's no "evidence" behind your statements. Players who have proven to be top sc1 players of all time have transitioned and found a measured level of success. No, the accusation of elitism is not a defense mechanism. It's like saying a tennis player would dominate racquetball "if they tried." Then you would be an elitist thinking your sport is just better or the athletes in the sport are just superior. It's such a ridiculous argument with so many logical fallacies that it's even difficult to respond to with one post.
If they transitioned, I'm sure players like Flash and Jaedong would be fantastic players. This is because their understanding of economic RTS is almost unmatched. However, to say they would dominate is a statement that basically invalidates any factual argument because it's based on the fact that you're a fanboy, an elitist, etc. - It's an opinion - To claim that it's backed by "evidence" is actually absurd and beyond idiotic.
The only true evidence would be for Flash to transfer over and do really well. This probably isn't going to happen, so stop claiming that your opinions are based on evidence or are factual statements, because they aren't.
I don't get how people are criticizing MC for being too obvious here. They asked if top BW players if switched could do well in SC2 and he said they definitely could. Blame the interviewer if this kind of thing is too obvious.
On April 30 2011 18:03 Loodah wrote: There's no "evidence" behind your statements. Players who have proven to be top sc1 players of all time have transitioned and found a measured level of success.
And yet people forget how old the legends really are. Like many people have said, MVP was clearly better than Nada at BW when they switched to SC2, because clearly athletes go past their prime (Boxer, etc.). There is evidence to support the fact that the most of the in-shape, younger ex BW pros have done well in SC2 - yes, even Nada, and to some extent Boxer.
I wouldn't discount MC/MVP etc. as being bad at BW - that is a lie. Clearly they were good enough to be professionals.
As for common sense, well it is common sense really. If someone has near perfect muta/mnm control/macro in BW, it also goes without saying that mechanically, SC2 will be a piece of cake. The skills involved are exactly the same, except of course the UI has made it far easier.
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: oGs MC the world's best StarCraft 2 player
quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset
(1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1)
... His achievements says the opposite. Stop doubting.
Yup, it's not even about beliefs. The term world's best player should not be subjective. It should be solely based on results and nothing else.
And MC has had the most results especially in LAN settings where he has to perform on stage with a live audience. If there is a player who is undefeated in online tourneys and another player who is undefeated on stage, I would still consider the stage player to be the better player.
On April 30 2011 18:03 Loodah wrote: Also, speaking to the SC1 elitism, you can obviously see it. Saying things like zomg ____(Insert top sc1 player) would obviously dominate gsl is basically you saying that SC1 players are just better at a game they don't play.
This is a different game folks. Are there similarities? Yes. There are similarities between SC2 and any other economic RTS in existence. If you can't accept that it's a different game, and you can't learn to separate SC1 high level play from SC2 high level play, then you are making completely irrelevant statements.
They're not better at the game they don't play, but they would be better IF they played it.
The accusation of elitism is really just a cheap defensive mechanism to discredit people who make a statement based on evidence and common sense. By evidence, I mean the skill and background of people who dominate SC2 currently and the reason they dominate.
There's no "evidence" behind your statements. Players who have proven to be top sc1 players of all time have transitioned and found a measured level of success.
"Of all time" is an irrelevant category, as many others have argued in this thread in the whole Nada vs MVP debate. The fact that Nada, who is ancient in BW, a university student and lives at home can still give most of the new kids a run for their money and is one of the most consistent Code S performers only indicates that the skill level carries over almost completely from BW.
Only one mediocre BW player, one coach and a couple of solid fringe A/B teamers transitioned into SC2 and are now absolutely dominating the game (just to be clear, I'm talking about MVP, NesTea, MC and MKP).
They didn't suddenly become top RTS players when they switched to SC2 nor did they discover some hidden talent they were never aware they had. Which is why they would get dominated by any of the current S/A Class BW progamers.
I say bw elites wouldn't 100% magically become the best. Especially not because star2 is an easier game. They would have an edge however because they already proved that they are the best at practice, builds, mental ability.
Why is it that the ex-warcraft players are very good in Europe? Because it was the most active rts game in EU before star2. Those players transferred their skill.
On April 30 2011 10:56 MadCatZ wrote: But in regards of the video i give it 2/5 Bad lighting and shaky camera
All fixed by 1) tripod 2) Lights
lol
completely agree. another thing that starts to annoy me about sc2 interviews that noone really manages to take the awkwardness away. never do you see an interview where a player actually relaxes and says more then pre produced answers.
Seriously, why would you like to "transition" to a worse game? Yes, SC2 has a lot of players, but SC:BW is elite. No one of those who watch both games closely has said that SC2 is better... Instead, they were going "ZOMG how intense, holy shit!!1" when switching from watching SC2 to BW once in a while.
I'm getting angry at those talks sometimes, as they are proclaiming something that's not worth it at all. Ok, in 10 years SC2 can become better than broodwar, but why just give away those years. And especially because SC:BW evolution doesn't stop too...
I think the best way these games could co-exist is that BW would be considered elite and SC2 like a good way to start with RTS... Because this is the true sportive spirit, to aim always higher (not for just more money, but also for higher skill). BroodWar is more challenging, and will likely remain such. And holy shit it mustn't be forgotten (which I'm sometimes afraid of, as I see all screen filled with only SC2 events in the TL main :D ), because it's probably the best game in the fucking world. Really, too many people could whole-heartedly call it so.
So, to sum it up... well, I hope Flash and so on won't go to SC2. It's senseless.
I didn't follow BW, but I want to see if I'm understanding this correctly. You guys are basically saying that if the BW pro scene ended tomorrow, then in 6 months to a year, all the best SC2 players in the world would be Koreans? Unless I'm missing out on some godly foreign RTS pro scene that hasn't transitioned to SC2 yet, that's basically what you guys are saying right? Like I mean pretty much the top 20 SC2 players wouldn't have any foreigners in it?
On April 30 2011 20:10 Spicy Pepper wrote: I didn't follow BW, but I want to see if I'm understanding this correctly. You guys are basically saying that if the BW pro scene ended tomorrow, then in 6 months to a year, all the best SC2 players in the world would be Koreans? Unless I'm missing out on some godly foreign RTS pro scene that hasn't transitioned to SC2 yet, that's basically what you guys are saying right? Like I mean pretty much the top 20 SC2 players wouldn't have any foreigners in it?
It's already the case, with maybe few exceptions...
the only thing people have when they switch from sc1 to sc2 is:
- similar RTS model/game style. - mechanics (to an extent - because again, not clone model, new keys).
game sense does not switch over because its different for different games. the TYPE of game sense required and type of practice required, knowledge and understanding of these things, does switch over.
Anyone who understands rts and plays as much as flash would become one of the better players imo. Most A-Teamers would probably be incredibly good if they wanted to play it.
Was Iron good at BW? I know he was a B-Teamer so he was better than any foreigner but I only remember seeing a few replays of him and they weren't that amazing by progamer standards.
Of course Flash would be at the top if he switched, but he wouldnt be as successfull as he was in BW imo (which is a good reason not to switch), because sc2 doesnt reward the better player as much as BW does (you can die to a LOT of things really quickly, because the game isn't figured out as much).
On April 30 2011 20:10 Spicy Pepper wrote: I didn't follow BW, but I want to see if I'm understanding this correctly. You guys are basically saying that if the BW pro scene ended tomorrow, then in 6 months to a year, all the best SC2 players in the world would be Koreans? Unless I'm missing out on some godly foreign RTS pro scene that hasn't transitioned to SC2 yet, that's basically what you guys are saying right? Like I mean pretty much the top 20 SC2 players wouldn't have any foreigners in it?
top 20 SC2 players might consist of at most 1/4 foreigners even now. being generous with 1/2 (10 of them), it would not be surprising if enough bw pros switched over such that these theoretical 10 slots could be filled, but keep in mind not all of these bw pros that could switch over will become top players
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
if top bw pros switched to sc2, it would probably be in 3 years after all of the sc2 expos are allready out and they could start learning the game from a finalized perspective.
as far as translating skill flash and jaedong would be good at absolutely anything that involves a mouse. im positive with their mechanics, game sence and training experience they could be top counterstrike2 pros, dota2 pros or any other esport with a high skillcap. learning how to train to be the best is hugely important and easily transferable to another game if they could give it 100% of their time. plus their still young enough no one would consider their performance negatively impacted by age.
i dont even really watch bw much anymore but the current top bw players are the top esport players who have ever lived.
Flash would dominate pretty quickly. This guy is incredibly talented, his abilities to make the best decision on the spot, his work ethic, his abilities to innovate, his strategical and tactical thinking, his winner mentality are almost unparalled. And I'm pretty sure those qualities would transfer to any RTS.
To give you guys some context, Flash parents opposed him becoming a programmer. He told them, let me try one month this summer, if I don't manage, I will give up. To do that he had to win courage, which is an extremely hard single elimination tournament. Jaedong had to try 10 times. And he did it first time. In a month. This is talent.
Well, there might be some obstacle. I think one of the reason he is that good is that he really loves the game, he has stated that a few times. I'm not sure it would be the same for sc2. Another thing is that sc2 skill-ceiling might be too low, so his win rate might not be as sick. But all this discussion is pointless, as he's not going to switch =)
On April 30 2011 20:37 bashalisk wrote: Flash would take months to reach the state SC2 players are now. I doubt he'll magically become equally good or successful as he is in BW.
Oh my, you have no idea how talented Flash is. He got his progaming license in a month - that's one Courage League. It took Jaedong, the second best player to grace BW, like ten attempts at Courage to get one.
He has the talent (imo the most talented RTS player ever), work ethic, motivation, the right environment to practice. I really doubt it'd take him more than a month to start dominating SC2 as hard as the game itself allows for.
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
just wrong, the best was boxer
The most charismatic? yes... the best? not by a long shot.
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
just wrong, the best was boxer
The most charismatic? yes... the best? not by a long shot.
hes not the best in terms of skill,but he is the most notable/influential.
On April 30 2011 13:23 TedJustice wrote: I'm sure flash would do well eventually if he switched over.
But I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't dominate. At least definitely not for a few months when he first starts.
SC2 isn't a game you can just pick up and play and beat everyone based on your BW instincts, as some other legends have shown. People like Nada and July have basically had to relearn the game from scratch, because it is a new game. It took a lot of work for them to even get to the same level as most of the other pros.
I can see Flash getting there a bit faster though.
As I recall, Nada and Boxer in particular made a pretty deep run in GSL not long after they had switched.
On April 30 2011 13:23 TedJustice wrote: I'm sure flash would do well eventually if he switched over.
But I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't dominate. At least definitely not for a few months when he first starts.
SC2 isn't a game you can just pick up and play and beat everyone based on your BW instincts, as some other legends have shown. People like Nada and July have basically had to relearn the game from scratch, because it is a new game. It took a lot of work for them to even get to the same level as most of the other pros.
I can see Flash getting there a bit faster though.
As I recall, Nada and Boxer in particular made a pretty deep run in GSL not long after they had switched.
Im quite sure GSL2 was their 1st tourney, where they reached r08 and r04 respectively.
On April 30 2011 20:10 Spicy Pepper wrote: I didn't follow BW, but I want to see if I'm understanding this correctly. You guys are basically saying that if the BW pro scene ended tomorrow, then in 6 months to a year, all the best SC2 players in the world would be Koreans? Unless I'm missing out on some godly foreign RTS pro scene that hasn't transitioned to SC2 yet, that's basically what you guys are saying right? Like I mean pretty much the top 20 SC2 players wouldn't have any foreigners in it?
it is already (almost) the case now, i think lol
people who didnt watch scbw probably have a different understanding of 'pro'.
cant wait to see the 'real pros' switch over perfect execution of every strat/response down to split seconds. esport = SEX!!!!
just imagine idra's mechanics would be the average standard of pros. ya, got that?
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
just wrong, the best was boxer
The most charismatic? yes... the best? not by a long shot.
i think if boxer is still 18-20 years old, he could beat flash, or match head to head with him easily
On April 30 2011 13:23 TedJustice wrote: I'm sure flash would do well eventually if he switched over.
But I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't dominate. At least definitely not for a few months when he first starts.
SC2 isn't a game you can just pick up and play and beat everyone based on your BW instincts, as some other legends have shown. People like Nada and July have basically had to relearn the game from scratch, because it is a new game. It took a lot of work for them to even get to the same level as most of the other pros.
I can see Flash getting there a bit faster though.
As I recall, Nada and Boxer in particular made a pretty deep run in GSL not long after they had switched.
GSL back then still wasn't really developed to the point it is today (iirc no Code A) and was probably much easier to break into.
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
just wrong, the best was boxer
The most charismatic? yes... the best? not by a long shot.
i think if boxer is still 18-20 years old, he could beat flash, or match head to head with him easily
In a standard game, flash could pretty much outmacro boxer(at his prime) easily. Dont know about micro though.Though an interesting fact,Boxer beat a very young flash in their only(i think) match.
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
just wrong, the best was boxer
The most charismatic? yes... the best? not by a long shot.
i think if boxer is still 18-20 years old, he could beat flash, or match head to head with him easily
Flash is 18 right now, and and already has more accomplishments than Boxer did in his entire career. As far as skill is concerned, Flash is way ahead of Boxer in every aspect of the game except for creativity. Prime boxer would take at most 2 games out of 10 from Flash.
has more accomplishments because tthese are other times, with more perhaps type of tournament, dunno now, but i think if boxer nada or july were still 18 eyars old, they could match him without problem
One thing I realized when SC2 people talk about Flash...
They think Flash has good mechanics
Well, it's good but not that great. JD and Bisu has the top mechanical skill. In game sense though, Flash is .. GOD. Seriously, those who talk about flash wont make it with the 'greats' of SC2 is just either a blind fanboy or just clueless as to what Flash is.
The only problem with flash and sc2 though is that, he knew BW was his thing. That's why he excelled in it. He knew it was his calling. He was destined to be GREAT.
On April 30 2011 21:33 Garmer wrote: has more accomplishments because tthese are other times, with more perhaps type of tournament, dunno now, but i think if boxer nada or july were still 18 eyars old, they could match him without problem
the age play a fundamental role here...
No it doesn't play a fundamental role the players from now are just a lot better than the players 10 years ago. Just look at Jaedong he is nearing retirement age ( 24 I think? ) but still tearing it up.
On April 30 2011 21:33 Garmer wrote: has more accomplishments because tthese are other times, with more perhaps type of tournament, dunno now, but i think if boxer nada or july were still 18 eyars old, they could match him without problem
the age play a fundamental role here...
They can match him without problems? There is no one that can match, maybe JD can. ANd JD is much better than all three of them.
On April 30 2011 13:23 TedJustice wrote: I'm sure flash would do well eventually if he switched over.
But I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't dominate. At least definitely not for a few months when he first starts.
SC2 isn't a game you can just pick up and play and beat everyone based on your BW instincts, as some other legends have shown. People like Nada and July have basically had to relearn the game from scratch, because it is a new game. It took a lot of work for them to even get to the same level as most of the other pros.
I can see Flash getting there a bit faster though.
flash will get there *a lot* faster.
tvt isn't really much different
how is marine-tank based tvz that much different than bw other than timings due to new units/lack of bw units
On April 30 2011 21:38 aimaimaim wrote: One thing I realized when SC2 people talk about Flash...
They think Flash has good mechanics
Well, it's good but not that great. JD and Bisu has the top mechanical skill. In game sense though, Flash is .. GOD. Seriously, those who talk about flash wont make it with the 'greats' of SC2 is just either a blind fanboy or just clueless as to what Flash is.
The only problem with flash and sc2 though is that, he knew BW was his thing. That's why he excelled in it. He knew it was his calling. He was destined to be GREAT.
And this is coming from a Anti-Flash Fanboy.
Well, we were talking about his mechanics relative to Old BW players and sc2 players, which is still extremely good.
On April 30 2011 13:23 TedJustice wrote: I'm sure flash would do well eventually if he switched over.
But I'm willing to bet that he wouldn't dominate. At least definitely not for a few months when he first starts.
SC2 isn't a game you can just pick up and play and beat everyone based on your BW instincts, as some other legends have shown. People like Nada and July have basically had to relearn the game from scratch, because it is a new game. It took a lot of work for them to even get to the same level as most of the other pros.
I can see Flash getting there a bit faster though.
flash will get there *a lot* faster.
tvt isn't really much different
how is marine-tank based tvz that much different than bw other than timings due to new units/lack of bw units
tvp is probably what he has to learn
lol all of the mu are significantly different then their bw counterparts. However, Flash would still dominate (after a short period of time) if he ever switched over (pray to god he doesnt) just because his work ethic and genius level understanding of rts would put him at a supreme advantage.
I highly doubt Flash would do well in SC2, they would be on top no doubt about that but not nearly as good as the top 10-15 players right now imo. First they all played terran in bw and agree or not terran held more then 50% of all tournaments win in bw + more then half of the most important titles ( golden mouse,Bonjwa.. etc ).In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced and terran is argueably not the best race in all match-ups atm. Other then that SC2 focused way less on micro and having 500 + apm and much more on macro and having inovateive ways of handling things.
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: oGs MC the world's best StarCraft 2 player
quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset
(1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1)
Beeing the best doesnt mean beeing perfect.. does it ?
well when being claimed as the "best" you have to be a well rounded player mechanically physically mentally
if you are lacking in one of those catagories you will make mistakes(as we see MC do) and not be able to reach the "best" spot
but games to volatile still to have the "best"
theres def atleast 5-6 people in the running for that position
Even considering your horrible justification, best simply means better than all others. So even without perfection, best still exists. Im neither saying mc is the best or that he's not. Merely your intelligence is limited.
On April 30 2011 21:58 Aterons_toss wrote: I highly doubt Flash or JD would do well in SC2, they would be on top no doubt about that but not nearly as good as the top 10-15 players right now imo. First they all played terran in bw and agree or not terran held more then 50% of all tournaments win in bw + more then half of the most important titles ( golden mouse,Bonjwa.. etc ).In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced and terran is argueably not the best race in all match-ups atm. Other then that SC2 focused way less on micro and having 500 + apm and much more on macro and having inovateive ways of handling things.
On April 30 2011 21:58 Aterons_toss wrote: I highly doubt Flash or JD would do well in SC2, they would be on top no doubt about that but not nearly as good as the top 10-15 players right now imo. First they all played terran in bw and agree or not terran held more then 50% of all tournaments win in bw + more then half of the most important titles ( golden mouse,Bonjwa.. etc ).In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced and terran is argueably not the best race in all match-ups atm. Other then that SC2 focused way less on micro and having 500 + apm and much more on macro and having inovateive ways of handling things.
They can switch race
Idra played Terran and now he plays zerg. Morrow played Terran and now he plays z too Cloud P -> T Goody P -> T Rainbow P -> T Incontrol Z -> P etc...
JD would still play Z imo. Flash would be either T or Z. Anyway they will still play bw for a long time i think :p
On April 30 2011 21:58 Aterons_toss wrote: I highly doubt Flash or JD would do well in SC2, they would be on top no doubt about that but not nearly as good as the top 10-15 players right now imo. First they all played terran in bw and agree or not terran held more then 50% of all tournaments win in bw + more then half of the most important titles ( golden mouse,Bonjwa.. etc ).In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced and terran is argueably not the best race in all match-ups atm. Other then that SC2 focused way less on micro and having 500 + apm and much more on macro and having inovateive ways of handling things.
They can switch race
Idra played Terran and now he plays zerg. Morrow played Terran and now he plays z too Cloud P -> T Goody P -> T Rainbow P -> T Incontrol Z -> P etc...
JD would still play Z imo. Flash would be either T or Z.
On April 30 2011 21:58 Aterons_toss wrote: I highly doubt Flash or JD would do well in SC2, they would be on top no doubt about that but not nearly as good as the top 10-15 players right now imo. First they all played terran in bw and agree or not terran held more then 50% of all tournaments win in bw + more then half of the most important titles ( golden mouse,Bonjwa.. etc ).In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced and terran is argueably not the best race in all match-ups atm. Other then that SC2 focused way less on micro and having 500 + apm and much more on macro and having inovateive ways of handling things.
They can switch race
Idra played Terran and now he plays zerg. Morrow played Terran and now he plays z too Cloud P -> T Goody P -> T Rainbow P -> T Incontrol Z -> P etc...
JD would still play Z imo. Flash would be either T or Z.
On April 30 2011 21:58 Aterons_toss wrote: I highly doubt Flash or JD would do well in SC2, they would be on top no doubt about that but not nearly as good as the top 10-15 players right now imo. First they all played terran in bw and agree or not terran held more then 50% of all tournaments win in bw + more then half of the most important titles ( golden mouse,Bonjwa.. etc ).In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced and terran is argueably not the best race in all match-ups atm. Other then that SC2 focused way less on micro and having 500 + apm and much more on macro and having inovateive ways of handling things.
They can switch race
Idra played Terran and now he plays zerg. Morrow played Terran and now he plays z too Cloud P -> T Goody P -> T Rainbow P -> T Incontrol Z -> P etc...
JD would still play Z imo. Flash would be either T or Z.
What if Flash played Protoss?
I don't think it is suited to his style. Protoss in Sc2 is really weird, completly different of Bw imo.
On April 30 2011 21:58 Aterons_toss wrote: I highly doubt Flash or JD would do well in SC2, they would be on top no doubt about that but not nearly as good as the top 10-15 players right now imo. First they all played terran in bw and agree or not terran held more then 50% of all tournaments win in bw + more then half of the most important titles ( golden mouse,Bonjwa.. etc ).In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced and terran is argueably not the best race in all match-ups atm. Other then that SC2 focused way less on micro and having 500 + apm and much more on macro and having inovateive ways of handling things.
Couldn't you have at least done some basic research before posting this?
Why do people not understand such basic points? Let me lay it out.
Nada/July/Boxer are EXTREMELY OLD and FAR past their primes. They cannot even get onto the A-team of any progaming team, with the exception of Nada, who was on the borderline.
MVP was a solid A-teamer when SC2 came out. At that moment in time, MVP could have beaten Nada/July/Boxer around the block with a fraction of his skills.
Thus, when everyone transitioned into SC2, when looking at current skill level alone, Nada/July/Boxer do NOT qualify as good BW players. People who DID qualify include MVP, MC (well not really but okay), Nestea (err kinda), etc.
As for those discrediting the BW experience... let's put it this way. No, you don't have to be a BW pro to do well in SC2 (e.g. Moon, Lyn, etc).
However, everyone who has done well has a very solid BW experience. Usually with a positive correlation on their BW skill level when starting SC2.
On that note, Flash/Bisu/Jaedong would destroy. Obviously not at first, because they are incredibly honed and sharp tools at BW, but their multitasking, gamesense, internal timing clocks, micro, macro, etc. do indeed transition. That's why only ex-pro RTS gamers are successful in BW.
On April 30 2011 21:58 Aterons_toss wrote: I highly doubt Flash or JD would do well in SC2, they would be on top no doubt about that but not nearly as good as the top 10-15 players right now imo. First they all played terran in bw and agree or not terran held more then 50% of all tournaments win in bw + more then half of the most important titles ( golden mouse,Bonjwa.. etc ).In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced and terran is argueably not the best race in all match-ups atm. Other then that SC2 focused way less on micro and having 500 + apm and much more on macro and having inovateive ways of handling things.
Couldn't you have at least done some basic research before posting this?
I remember an interview with JD where he talked that he used to play Terran but was not very successful against Zerg so he switched then. So that's probably what red4ce thought (?).
On April 30 2011 21:58 Aterons_toss wrote: I highly doubt Flash or JD would do well in SC2, they would be on top no doubt about that but not nearly as good as the top 10-15 players right now imo. First they all played terran in bw and agree or not terran held more then 50% of all tournaments win in bw + more then half of the most important titles ( golden mouse,Bonjwa.. etc ).In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced and terran is argueably not the best race in all match-ups atm. Other then that SC2 focused way less on micro and having 500 + apm and much more on macro and having inovateive ways of handling things.
They can switch race
Idra played Terran and now he plays zerg. Morrow played Terran and now he plays z too Cloud P -> T Goody P -> T Rainbow P -> T Incontrol Z -> P etc...
JD would still play Z imo. Flash would be either T or Z.
What if Flash played Protoss?
protoss skill ceiling is too low
Starcraft 2 is a new game and is still developing, when other races start figuring out different playstyles and approaches to the current matchups we're gonna see protoss have to try different styles. There's no skill ceiling.
On April 30 2011 21:58 Aterons_toss wrote: I highly doubt Flash or JD would do well in SC2, they would be on top no doubt about that but not nearly as good as the top 10-15 players right now imo. First they all played terran in bw and agree or not terran held more then 50% of all tournaments win in bw + more then half of the most important titles ( golden mouse,Bonjwa.. etc ).In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced and terran is argueably not the best race in all match-ups atm. Other then that SC2 focused way less on micro and having 500 + apm and much more on macro and having inovateive ways of handling things.
OMG, that posts like these still exist in TL... 1. JD plays Z 2. BW is called THE most balanced RTS ever. It's much much more balanced than SC2 3. Innovative play? And what do you think of the recent metagame shifts, in ZvT (Queens), and ZvZ (Hive) ? There are still many innovative tactics around in BW, because Flash and the like are capable to find new ways. 4. The races don't feel the same. Or does Zerg in SC2 feel like BW-Zerg? Is Weak-warpgate-units-Protoss similar to Reaver-Storm-Stasis-Protoss?
On April 30 2011 22:55 Aristodemus wrote: Is it more lucrative to be successful in BW? If these guys (MC, Nestea) were so "mediocre" as people claim why dont more top BW pro's switch?
the top brood war players earn high salaries + their tournament winnings, sponsorships etc
On April 30 2011 22:55 Aristodemus wrote: Is it more lucrative to be successful in BW? If these guys (MC, Nestea) were so "mediocre" as people claim why dont more top BW pro's switch?
Ill quote myself somewhat from the post I made earlier in this thread:
There is no incentive for him to go for SC2. Flash makes ~300-400k a year in BW. SC2 is tiny/peanuts in Korea, whereas BW is major(Beyond E-famous). And really, it would be such a waste if Flash were to play SC2.
Basically SC2 is nothing and BW is everything. The only incentive to go SC2 is to become famous because they simply can not compete with the best in BW. SC2 players in Korea are struggling as it, it is much more comfertable to be paid a salary.
On April 30 2011 22:55 Aristodemus wrote: Is it more lucrative to be successful in BW? If these guys (MC, Nestea) were so "mediocre" as people claim why dont more top BW pro's switch?
yeah it more lucrative. You get money without having to win a tournement, because the heart of BW pro are the Teams.
On April 30 2011 22:55 Aristodemus wrote: Is it more lucrative to be successful in BW? If these guys (MC, Nestea) were so "mediocre" as people claim why dont more top BW pro's switch?
the top brood war players earn high salaries + their tournament winnings, sponsorships etc
The teams have big company's sponsoring them and the games are on actual tv it's much more lucrative atm.
On April 30 2011 22:55 Aristodemus wrote: Is it more lucrative to be successful in BW? If these guys (MC, Nestea) were so "mediocre" as people claim why dont more top BW pro's switch?
BW OSL and MSL is still more prestigious than GSL in Korea.They get paid as well.
On April 30 2011 21:58 Aterons_toss wrote: In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced [...]. Other then that SC2 focused [...] more on macro [...].
Ignorance is bliss. No seriously most obvious troll ever.
the only thing people have when they switch from sc1 to sc2 is:
- similar RTS model/game style. - mechanics (to an extent - because again, not clone model, new keys).
game sense does not switch over because its different for different games. the TYPE of game sense required and type of practice required, knowledge and understanding of these things, does switch over.
but thats all.
This is provably wrong. Skilled rts players continue their success in other games which is evident from just looking at who the best players in the world are.
On April 30 2011 22:55 Aristodemus wrote: Is it more lucrative to be successful in BW? If these guys (MC, Nestea) were so "mediocre" as people claim why dont more top BW pro's switch?
Because they are interested in BW, why would you give up what you like?
It is very interesting to follow BW scene and recognize that some, admittedly mediocre players, can be such a "key" to some innovations in game. Such as Crazy-Hydra for example, he seemed to be so mediocre, but all of a sudden other Woongjin zergs confirm that he developed the Queen builds for Zerg vs. Terran playing mech units. Or Horang2 who is extremely mediocre in other match-ups but has omfg good PvP.
i think other players have their "features" too. even if you are generally mediocre you can have your "star hour"
bw pros get paid craploads salary wise and being good at bw is FAR more reputable than being good in sc2. i could not see any pro-bw player switching for a long time.
whoever thinks flash would give up a 6 figure salary just so he can MAYBE win a GSL for what, 30k? is kidding themselves.
I see no evidence that Flash or Jaedong would dominate Starcraft 2 if they switched. Sure they are the most likely to quickly reach the TOP, but affirming to know without a shadow of doubts that they would be heads and shoulders above every single other Starcraft 2 players for years is beyond ridiculous.
BW and Starcraft II are extremly different. In War3 too, the best BW pro who switched were far from being the best players.
but does anyone feel that with MBS and the general easier state of macro, that it would more level the playing field for people playing against people who are so incredibly good as flash & JD?
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
just wrong, the best was boxer
The most charismatic? yes... the best? not by a long shot.
i think if boxer is still 18-20 years old, he could beat flash, or match head to head with him easily
In a standard game, flash could pretty much outmacro boxer(at his prime) easily. Dont know about micro though.Though an interesting fact,Boxer beat a very young flash in their only(i think) match. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7ptEQZrDj4
i think a good example is mae jae yoon (savior), who was most succesful during his late teens, which is when he was the best in the world. however, newer players with better skills came along and replaced him. afterwards, he admitted that his skill had increased passed what it was in his prime, but it was a simple case of better players getting better faster
On April 30 2011 22:55 Aristodemus wrote: Is it more lucrative to be successful in BW? If these guys (MC, Nestea) were so "mediocre" as people claim why dont more top BW pro's switch?
Because they are interested in BW, why would you give up what you like?
It is very interesting to follow BW scene and recognize that some, admittedly mediocre players, can be such a "key" to some innovations in game. Such as Crazy-Hydra for example, he seemed to be so mediocre, but all of a sudden other Woongjin zergs confirm that he developed the Queen builds for Zerg vs. Terran playing mech units. Or Horang2 who is extremely mediocre in other match-ups but has omfg good PvP.
i think other players have their "features" too. even if you are generally mediocre you can have your "star hour"
Im not sure about this but I think MVP with his resurrection of mines double expand (while he played BW) contributed to the decline of 12 nex as an opening among pros. You almost never see 12 nex at pro level now
On May 01 2011 00:25 reneg wrote: but does anyone feel that with MBS and the general easier state of macro, that it would more level the playing field for people playing against people who are so incredibly good as flash & JD?
Even with such things, the current batch of players still miss production rounds,mules etc. Imagine if one of TBLS, with much better macro played.
On April 30 2011 22:55 Aristodemus wrote: Is it more lucrative to be successful in BW? If these guys (MC, Nestea) were so "mediocre" as people claim why dont more top BW pro's switch?
BW is so much more lucrative than SC2 in Korea.
BW dominates two cable channels with top ratings, BW has the $300k salaries, BW has the hundred thousand member fan clubs, BW draws six figure live crowds . . . SC2 is probably less than one tenth as popular as BW in Korea.
Flash is 18 right now, and and already has more accomplishments than Boxer did in his entire career.
woah, let's not get carried away now you can't really say Flash revolutionised e-sports in Korea..
but as far as BW pros moving to SC2, there's no doubt that they would definately do very well. if one of the TBLS were to compete in SC2 I wouldn't expect them to rip through their first GSL tournament, but they'd show impressive results.
On April 30 2011 22:55 Aristodemus wrote: Is it more lucrative to be successful in BW? If these guys (MC, Nestea) were so "mediocre" as people claim why dont more top BW pro's switch?
BW is so much more lucrative than SC2 in Korea.
BW dominates two cable channels with top ratings, BW has the $300k salaries, BW has the hundred thousand member fan clubs, BW draws six figure live crowds . . . SC2 is probably less than one tenth as popular as BW in Korea.
And according to some koreans, SC2 doesn't grow particularly fast, if at all (professionally). I'm not sure any of the top BW pros would ever pick up SC2 in it's current state (no lan, failnet2.0, GOM monopoly etc)
Oh man, MC on Hyungjoon becomes a progamer was so funny when i first saw it. Still have to rewatch it once every few months and i still giggle so hard. Im happy MC chose SC2 as a career and not dancing
OT: i doubt we'd see flash soon though, he still has to go into the military, and hes just so high on the BW ranking that he'd lose a lot of money going to SC2 and practice for that.
On April 30 2011 22:59 G3CKO wrote: lol @ bw is dead
bw is still evolving and it's not going to stop
I think a much more sensible statement to make would be that BW is dead outside of Korea... and a subforum on TL. >_>
The western scene has basically vanished/completely transferred over to SC2. SC2 exposure is at an all time high right now and shows no sign of slowing down anytime soon. Just take a look at the streams going on at any one time on TL. Over 60 streams open - 55 are SC2 (with ~9000 viewers total), 5 are BW (with ~60 viewers total) - and this is the headquarters of BW outside of Korea.
But obviously, it's understandable from the BW players' kind of view. Why give up your job and your livelihood when you don't even know whether you will make it to the top in SC2? It's a risk that not many are willing to take - and understandably so.
Flash is 18 right now, and and already has more accomplishments than Boxer did in his entire career.
woah, let's not get carried away now you can't really say Flash revolutionised e-sports in Korea..
but as far as BW pros moving to SC2, there's no doubt that they would definately do very well. if one of the TBLS were to compete in SC2 I wouldn't expect them to rip through their first GSL tournament, but they'd show impressive results.
If we are talking about actual accomplishments in terms of winning yes he has.
Anyways, I don`t see any BW pro switching over for a long time since they are making more than they would in SC2 and you get more recognition playing BW. Makes no sense for top BW players to switch to a more volatile game where the playing field is more level because of the simplified mechanics and different game design.
That is probably the most unimpressive statement I've heard all day - more unimpressive than stuff like "Yes", "No", "Good morning". If you don't think Flash would dominate SC2 if he switched and spent more than 2 weeks on it then you're a huge fool. Flash would add 6 more dimensions to the metagame, he would create his own race more powerful than the hybrids or the Xel'Naga, he would not miss a single second of production in a 30 minute macro game, he might even out-micro the Automaton Bot. Jeez, if Flash switched to SC2, Blizzard would find it impossible to balance the races AND Flash at the same time. No joke.
Seriously, if TBLS switched to SC2, I'd imagine 90% of the sponsors and viewers of BW would switch with them. Watching BW matches between Failtasy, Clam, Hyuk, Jaehoon & co would be positively depressing after seeing the magnificence of Flash and his minibosses.
On April 30 2011 22:59 G3CKO wrote: lol @ bw is dead
bw is still evolving and it's not going to stop
I think a much more sensible statement to make would be that BW is dead outside of Korea... and a subforum on TL. >_>
The western scene has basically vanished/completely transferred over to SC2. SC2 exposure is at an all time high right now and shows no sign of slowing down anytime soon. Just take a look at the streams going on at any one time on TL. Over 60 streams open - 55 are SC2 (with ~9000 viewers total), 5 are BW (with ~60 viewers total) - and this is the headquarters of BW outside of Korea.
But obviously, it's understandable from the BW players' kind of view. Why give up your job and your livelihood when you don't even know whether you will make it to the top in SC2? It's a risk that not many are willing to take - and understandably so.
This is the headquarters of BW in the Western world, but not outside of Korea.
In China, BW still gets a lot more attention than SC2.
On May 01 2011 01:48 tyCe wrote: That is probably the most unimpressive statement I've heard all day - more unimpressive than stuff like "Yes", "No", "Good morning". If you don't think Flash would dominate SC2 if he switched and spent more than 2 weeks on it then you're a huge fool. Flash would add 6 more dimensions to the metagame, he would create his own race more powerful than the hybrids or the Xel'Naga, he would not miss a single second of production in a 30 minute macro game, he might even out-micro the Automaton Bot. Jeez, if Flash switched to SC2, Blizzard would find it impossible to balance the races AND Flash at the same time. No joke.
Seriously, if TBLS switched to SC2, I'd imagine 90% of the sponsors and viewers of BW would switch with them. Watching BW matches between Failtasy, Clam, Hyuk, Jaehoon & co would be positively depressing after seeing the magnificence of Flash and his minibosses.
One half of me would love to see Flash come over to see him owning up the scene and pushing the understanding of the game and its matchups. The other half would love to see him come over and be just one of many good players because I feel people are slighting the SC2 scene by putting BW pros on a pedestal already.
So basically whatever the outcome, I 100% want him (and the other top BW players) to come over. :lol :lol
On April 30 2011 22:59 G3CKO wrote: lol @ bw is dead
bw is still evolving and it's not going to stop
I think a much more sensible statement to make would be that BW is dead outside of Korea... and a subforum on TL. >_>
The western scene has basically vanished/completely transferred over to SC2. SC2 exposure is at an all time high right now and shows no sign of slowing down anytime soon. Just take a look at the streams going on at any one time on TL. Over 60 streams open - 55 are SC2 (with ~9000 viewers total), 5 are BW (with ~60 viewers total) - and this is the headquarters of BW outside of Korea.
But obviously, it's understandable from the BW players' kind of view. Why give up your job and your livelihood when you don't even know whether you will make it to the top in SC2? It's a risk that not many are willing to take - and understandably so.
This is the headquarters of BW in the Western world, but not outside of Korea.
In China, BW still gets a lot more attention than SC2.
And Warcraft III more than both of them combined.
But point taken, I actually only thought of the western scene and forgot the rest of Asia in my previous post.
On May 01 2011 01:55 Griffith` wrote: imo BW wouldn't be worth watching w/o FlaSh.
=/ there are many great broodwar players outside of flash that produce exciting games and innovative tactics. sure, having flash leave brood war would be a blow, but there is still a sea of players i love to watch
How can you just assume if Flash switched over he would show Terrans how to actually play? Have you considered that Starcraft 2 has already reached its limit?
On April 30 2011 22:59 G3CKO wrote: lol @ bw is dead
bw is still evolving and it's not going to stop
I think a much more sensible statement to make would be that BW is dead outside of Korea... and a subforum on TL. >_>
The western scene has basically vanished/completely transferred over to SC2. SC2 exposure is at an all time high right now and shows no sign of slowing down anytime soon. Just take a look at the streams going on at any one time on TL. Over 60 streams open - 55 are SC2 (with ~9000 viewers total), 5 are BW (with ~60 viewers total) - and this is the headquarters of BW outside of Korea.
But obviously, it's understandable from the BW players' kind of view. Why give up your job and your livelihood when you don't even know whether you will make it to the top in SC2? It's a risk that not many are willing to take - and understandably so.
Here's the thing. You said yourself that TL is pretty much the headquarters for SC2 outside. So if you add up all the viewers on TL which should be pretty close to all the viewers in the world outside of Korea, it's still only like 10,000 for a nice event, maybe 50,000 for something awesome like TSL3. Korea alone has more viewers for BW than that. So if you look at absolute popularity of BW vs SC2 in the entire world, I think BW is still more popular, as an eSport.
Obviously if you included all the people who played SC2 but didn't watch pro games, SC2 would be more popular though.
On May 01 2011 02:02 doihy wrote: How can you just assume if Flash switched over he would show Terrans how to actually play? Have you considered that Starcraft 2 has already reached its limit?
That's be pretty sad for SC2 if it has already reached its limit...
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: oGs MC the world's best StarCraft 2 player
quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset
(1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1)
Being the best doesn't mean he is perfect. He is the closest thing to perfect in sc2 right now, making him the best. I'm pretty sure that this point is not even debatable at this time.
If TBLS switched, BW would probably die. Slowly but certainly. I read somewhere that Flash and JD would like to stick to BW for at least 5 more years, so I think it's very unlikely that they switch. If they DO switch, they should at least do a favor to the BW scene and leave behind people worthy of their legacy. Otherwise BW would die
On May 01 2011 02:02 doihy wrote: How can you just assume if Flash switched over he would show Terrans how to actually play? Have you considered that Starcraft 2 has already reached its limit?
That's be pretty sad for SC2 if it has already reached its limit...
First off, what makes you think that he would stick with terran? Maybe he would like the zerg play style more. Secondly, the game has definitely not reached its limit... It has only been out for a year, BW is still changing and it's a 12 year old game.
On April 30 2011 22:20 Keone wrote: MVP was a solid A-teamer when SC2 came out. At that moment in time, MVP could have beaten Nada/July/Boxer around the block with a fraction of his skills.
Just wanted to add something: He was a woongjin terran. If he stayed on bw, with really and light on their line up, he would probably be an a-teamer on the house chores squad.
On May 01 2011 02:02 doihy wrote: How can you just assume if Flash switched over he would show Terrans how to actually play? Have you considered that Starcraft 2 has already reached its limit?
That's be pretty sad for SC2 if it has already reached its limit...
First off, what makes you think that he would stick with terran? Maybe he would like the zerg play style more. Secondly, the game has definitely not reached its limit... It has only been out for a year, BW is still changing and it's a 12 year old game.
Of course not, but BW and SC2 are entirely different games. People going into SC2 already had the accumlated knowledge of BW and SC2 undoubtedly has a lower skill ceiling.
Yeah, we haven't seen every strategy yet, but it won't take anywhere near 12 years before the game is figured out.
On May 01 2011 02:02 doihy wrote: How can you just assume if Flash switched over he would show Terrans how to actually play? Have you considered that Starcraft 2 has already reached its limit?
That's be pretty sad for SC2 if it has already reached its limit...
First off, what makes you think that he would stick with terran? Maybe he would like the zerg play style more. Secondly, the game has definitely not reached its limit... It has only been out for a year, BW is still changing and it's a 12 year old game.
Of course not, but BW and SC2 are entirely different games. People going into SC2 already had the accumlated knowledge of BW and SC2 undoubtedly has a lower skill ceiling.
Yeah, we haven't seen every strategy yet, but it won't take anywhere near 12 years before the game is figured out.
Starcraft 1 had a lower skill ceiling than warcraft, so warcraft must have been the superior game.
On April 30 2011 22:20 Keone wrote: MVP was a solid A-teamer when SC2 came out. At that moment in time, MVP could have beaten Nada/July/Boxer around the block with a fraction of his skills.
Just wanted to add something: He was a woongjin terran. If he stayed on bw, with really and light on their line up, he would probably be an a-teamer on the house chores squad.
LOL that's totally true. MVP was a woongjin Terran. The only thing worse than a woongjin Terran is an SKT Zerg - oh... wait
Nvm, woongjin Terrans are the worst stigma in the whole of BW. And MVP wouldn't even be their first-choice Terran if he was still playing BW. No disrespect to him as a great SC2 player, but this should just bring a little perspective.
At least MVP was still a lot better at BW than MC, aka emotioneless Flounder fish who had one official win ever in his entire BW career.
On May 01 2011 02:02 doihy wrote: How can you just assume if Flash switched over he would show Terrans how to actually play? Have you considered that Starcraft 2 has already reached its limit?
That's be pretty sad for SC2 if it has already reached its limit...
First off, what makes you think that he would stick with terran? Maybe he would like the zerg play style more. Secondly, the game has definitely not reached its limit... It has only been out for a year, BW is still changing and it's a 12 year old game.
Of course not, but BW and SC2 are entirely different games. People going into SC2 already had the accumlated knowledge of BW and SC2 undoubtedly has a lower skill ceiling.
Yeah, we haven't seen every strategy yet, but it won't take anywhere near 12 years before the game is figured out.
The metagame only needs to last until the next expansion pack. With tons of potential patches and stuff being added in the expansions, Blizzard has plenty of options to shake up the metagame if it ever stagnates.
I don't think the clock for figuring out the SC2 metagame will start until the last big balance patch of the last expansion is released. Until then, it's hard to fully figure out the game when anything can change in the next patch or expansion.
The general consensus of BW followers is that if the top tier of BW switches, the current top tier of SC2 would be barbecued alive.
The mixed reaction from non-BW followers or those who do not follow closely are somewhere between hesitated acceptance to "MVP was bonjwa in BW, he took a single game off Flash in a BO5 and reached MSL RO8 in his career. Your assumptions are unfounded".
The truth is that the current top tier of Korean SC2 is almost exclusively composed by ex-BW B-teamers who were not even good enough to qualify for Proleague lineup such as MKP and MC, ex-BW players who once graced the Proleague lineup in the ancient past with very little success under their name such as Sangho and NesTea, famous players who can no longer stay competitive in BW (Boxer, Nada and July), and MVP. MVP is the only BW player who switched when he was still considered as an A-teamer, despite his reputation in BW as an infamous "Woongjin Terran" - the weakest Terran lineup in history. If MVP still stayed in Woongjin, he would not even be on the lineup today as Woongjin has acquired Really and Light.
I once again bring this interview to your attention:
- If you can go back to your prime do you think you can win? ▲ Boxer: That is just a thought. Its more of an excuse if I say stuff like that (laughs). If 2 players play extremely well the game can be the best game ever. However, era when I was prime and the era when Savior was prime is different in skill level. However if that does happen, I think it can be a very big issue and fun. ▲ Savior: When I lose, I'm not the type that says to myself "If I was at my prime he would've lost." I never thought anything like that. I don't like imagining stuff like "if this was 1 year ago." Its just pointless thinking.
- Still though, if this can happen what do you think will be the result? ▲ Boxer: I cant say, because I think the me right now is alot better than when I was at my prime long ago. Thats how much the skill average increased. Even though if I was at my prime I would lose. ▲ Savior: I believe the same. I think I'm better now than I was at my prime (LOL ANTI-SAVIOR FANBOYS ARE RIGHT). These days everyone is so good, they don't get shaken up mentally either. Aftergame interviews of winners all sound like they were mentally fine. Thats how much better players got.
Consensus... yeah. But no one think about that, why would Flash or Jaedong ever have the motivation to go to that game? If you go somewhere just because you think it's "necessary" you won't be motivated. You are motivated when you truly wish something. Why would Flash / JD go to SC2? It's senseless. Current SC:BW is pretty entertaining and challenging rivalries (JD-Flash, Stork-Bisu and in other combinations too... as well as some newly developing rivalries such as SoulKey vs. Fantasy or Great vs. Zero) and constant strategy development. Why leave it all to a game where there is arguable balance, arguable entertaining ability and strategic depth?... Not that they just must be discovered... but it is doubted by many professional players that there even is some of this (depth and entertaining ability).
So I think that this is simply irrelevant and somewhat provocational question. "How would they do IF they switched?" But they really, have no reasons to DO this. If it's a provocation to make people talk about it... (intentional or not) so, I just said here my opinion, and as it's already turned into a trolololol topic (though I very much hope that it'll stop being this), and not gonna post here more...
On May 01 2011 02:02 doihy wrote: How can you just assume if Flash switched over he would show Terrans how to actually play? Have you considered that Starcraft 2 has already reached its limit?
This is one sad game if it's already reached it's limit.
On May 01 2011 02:02 doihy wrote: How can you just assume if Flash switched over he would show Terrans how to actually play? Have you considered that Starcraft 2 has already reached its limit?
This is one sad game if it's already reached it's limit.
With dustin browder behind the wheel the depth may have been compromised for the sake of accessibility.
On May 01 2011 02:02 doihy wrote: How can you just assume if Flash switched over he would show Terrans how to actually play? Have you considered that Starcraft 2 has already reached its limit?
This is one sad game if it's already reached it's limit.
With dustin browder behind the wheel the depth may have been compromised for the sake of accessibility.
Honestly, I look at that as a good thing. It'll never go mainstream and open up to wider, more casual audiences otherwise.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
MVP couldn't beat Nada in bw. Want proof? Pretty awesome if you watch it.
MVP big accomplishment is making ro8 in msl. Which is pretty badass from the people he beat to get that far in that tournament. Nada has far more accomplishments than that. Jaedong just very recently passed Nada in all time wins in bw. Get your facts straight before you go fanboy someone and embarass yourself.
Who am i a Fanboy of exactly, MVP who's an average T? Anyone who regularly watched BW around that time would have agreed with me that MVP when he was playing well was better than Nada. If anything you are making the fanboy statement by jumping to Nada's defence for some reason. I'm well aware of Nada's achievements in the game, but it's irrelevant to actual skill when his achievements were all many years ago. Not sure how i'm embarrassing myself by stating blatant facts.
MVP was playing very well for a period and had some good wins against players like Stork, and this was well after 2008. Nada was never bad like some people suggested but MVP was becoming an A-team regular while Nada wasn't even getting games.
I don't get why a guy who joined in 2010 is popping up to try and tell me shit about BW. The relative skill has gone up so high over the years that even a sub-50% winrate a-teamer was much better than Nada. Sorry if that somehow offends you, it's not taking anything away from his previous titles.
I think the top BW pros could definitely get to a dominant level of sc2, given time to adjust. It would really come down to the amount of time put in, as both games continue to evolve. Success from a variety of RTS background have transitioned well into SC2, as the highest pros in sc2 are former high level players of other games.
Players like Moon and Grubby, as the former top of their game, are surging strongly and continuing to improve, but didn't jump immediately to the top (though that may be more similar to say boxer/nada than flash/jd/bisu).
More than anything, I'd love for it to somehow happen. I think it would just be a matter of developing the new game sense and timings for sc2 and they'd be amazing.
Edit: Would also be interested to see if they stayed with the same race. Flash as a zerg, or JD as a protoss or something would be both amazing and somewhat disappointing at the same time. Not even sure how I'd feel about it, heh.
EDIT: well thinking about it a lil bit more, i guess if they switch over sc2, even if they get really good at the game, they may not be as dominant as they were in sc1 (jd /flash) cause the "luck factor" in sc2 is lilttle bit higher than it is in bw...
On May 01 2011 09:40 lynx.oblige wrote: Starcraft reach its limit? lol? Why would Flash even be guaranteed to play Terran anyhow. Somehow I feel like he would like Zerg.
God I hope not. Flash playing anything but Terran will upset me. Same with JD and Bisu.
On May 01 2011 09:40 lynx.oblige wrote: Starcraft reach its limit? lol? Why would Flash even be guaranteed to play Terran anyhow. Somehow I feel like he would like Zerg.
God I hope not. Flash playing anything but Terran will upset me. Same with JD and Bisu.
Flash's Carrier micro isn't too bad, and apparently he played a bit of Zerg before becoming fully Terran and going pro.
Jaedong's Terran is also pretty good, especially his bio play in ZvT. Also, I heard that he started out playing Terran before switching over to Zerg and going pro.
On May 01 2011 09:40 lynx.oblige wrote: Starcraft reach its limit? lol? Why would Flash even be guaranteed to play Terran anyhow. Somehow I feel like he would like Zerg.
God I hope not. Flash playing anything but Terran will upset me. Same with JD and Bisu.
Flash's Carrier micro isn't too bad, and apparently he played a bit of Zerg before becoming fully Terran and going pro.
Jaedong's Terran is also pretty good, especially his bio play in ZvT. Also, I heard that he started out playing Terran before switching over to Zerg and going pro.
I'm not saying they're bad. I bet their off races are amazing. But it'd upset me knowing they aren't sticking to their roots.
On April 30 2011 11:20 Stoids wrote: I'm surprised that a mediocre B team Brood War player like MC thinks that Flash, the greatest Brood War player of all time, would be a good player. Really good comment from the "best Starcraft 2 player" in the world.
just wrong, the best was boxer
The most charismatic? yes... the best? not by a long shot.
i think if boxer is still 18-20 years old, he could beat flash, or match head to head with him easily
lol you are delusional... 73% all time winning percentage against players like jaedong -- who himself is 69% -- bisu and stork is something that has never ever been seen in BW history and probably will never be seen again.
On May 01 2011 09:40 lynx.oblige wrote: Starcraft reach its limit? lol? Why would Flash even be guaranteed to play Terran anyhow. Somehow I feel like he would like Zerg.
God I hope not. Flash playing anything but Terran will upset me. Same with JD and Bisu.
Flash's Carrier micro isn't too bad, and apparently he played a bit of Zerg before becoming fully Terran and going pro.
Jaedong's Terran is also pretty good, especially his bio play in ZvT. Also, I heard that he started out playing Terran before switching over to Zerg and going pro.
I'm not saying they're bad. I bet their off races are amazing. But it'd upset me knowing they aren't sticking to their roots.
People seem to be overestimating MvP's abilities in BW. Stars Terrans have always been butt of joke probably even more so than T1 zergs.
I would say Nada and MvP are about on equal level.
And I think I agree with people saying Flash wouldn't show us anything really new. He'd just execute what we have got going much better than everyone else.
On May 01 2011 12:40 Nayl wrote: People seem to be overestimating MvP's abilities in BW. Stars Terrans have always been butt of joke probably even more so than T1 zergs.
I would say Nada and MvP are about on equal level.
And I think I agree with people saying Flash wouldn't show us anything really new. He'd just execute what we have got going much better than everyone else.
what does it matter if he was a woongjin terran? he still racked up some decent wins, and no one was calling him a top level brood war player, but simply a solid A teamer while nada wasn't, I don't think anyone can disagree with this
On May 01 2011 15:28 rysecake wrote: How many people here just watched Flash's game against Movie and can say with a straight face that he wouldn't own up sc2...lol
man, Flash is so freakin huge and influential right now. A decision to move to SC2 could literally mean thousands of new fans switching over from BW to either watch their favourite terran, or realise that the top players in the world are finally moving to SC2. I personally hope he switches, as i would much rather see SC2 bloom and prosper even more brightly than SC1 did!
On May 01 2011 12:40 Nayl wrote: People seem to be overestimating MvP's abilities in BW. Stars Terrans have always been butt of joke probably even more so than T1 zergs.
I would say Nada and MvP are about on equal level.
And I think I agree with people saying Flash wouldn't show us anything really new. He'd just execute what we have got going much better than everyone else.
this. it's just a mechanics advantage and RTS familiarity that you'd have transferring over.
On May 01 2011 12:40 Nayl wrote: People seem to be overestimating MvP's abilities in BW. Stars Terrans have always been butt of joke probably even more so than T1 zergs.
I would say Nada and MvP are about on equal level.
And I think I agree with people saying Flash wouldn't show us anything really new. He'd just execute what we have got going much better than everyone else.
this. it's just a mechanics advantage and RTS familiarity that you'd have transferring over.
not innate SC2 skills -_-
seriously lol ppeople dont think at all...
?????? So, if you actually stop to think about it, "rts familiarity" is kind of a big deal...as has been pointed out many times in this thread, Flash's dominance isn't because he "clicks much faster than everyone else," to borrow sc2 bandwagoner lingo...he actually has an astoundingly deep strategic understanding of starcraft, and rts's as a genre.
There was an old interview where Yellow said something like he had never seen someone with an innate understanding of games like Flash does, that he always seems to spend all his resources yet always have enough to expand, and always come out ahead somehow. And if you watch any of his dominating facerape games, or his holy-shit-comeback games, you have to admit that the kid seems to have some rts computer for a brain. Take last night's proleague match, for example. There is no way Flash actually planned to go ridiculous mass wraith into mass expand into dicking around with BC/tank. Yet he was in control the entire game, both in terms of military/economy and game flow. He just has an instinct.
If Flash were to convert to sc2, it would only be a matter of time before he "got" the game, and his rts sense will enable him to do very well.
On May 01 2011 12:40 Nayl wrote: People seem to be overestimating MvP's abilities in BW. Stars Terrans have always been butt of joke probably even more so than T1 zergs.
I would say Nada and MvP are about on equal level.
And I think I agree with people saying Flash wouldn't show us anything really new. He'd just execute what we have got going much better than everyone else.
this. it's just a mechanics advantage and RTS familiarity that you'd have transferring over.
not innate SC2 skills -_-
seriously lol ppeople dont think at all...
Heh, so the most talented RTS player would not show anything innovative while some comparatively subpar players do that quite frequently in SC2? ;p
On May 01 2011 12:40 Nayl wrote: People seem to be overestimating MvP's abilities in BW. Stars Terrans have always been butt of joke probably even more so than T1 zergs.
I would say Nada and MvP are about on equal level.
And I think I agree with people saying Flash wouldn't show us anything really new. He'd just execute what we have got going much better than everyone else.
this. it's just a mechanics advantage and RTS familiarity that you'd have transferring over.
not innate SC2 skills -_-
seriously lol ppeople dont think at all...
According to bonjwas Nayl and mytent, all the secrets of starcraft 2 have already been discovered! Innate starcraft skills don't exist, which is why counterstrike progamers have been doing so well in GSL.
i think they should ask when will players like jaedong or flash finally move over to sc2 I want to know what they think about sc2 Also where can i watch part 2 and 3 of this?
On May 01 2011 16:59 DreamRaider wrote: i think they should ask when will players like jaedong or flash finally move over to sc2 I want to know what they think about sc2 Also where can i watch part 2 and 3 of this?
Realistically, they will switch over when SC2 overtakes BW in Korea.
On May 01 2011 15:28 rysecake wrote: How many people here just watched Flash's game against Movie and can say with a straight face that he wouldn't own up sc2...lol
man, Flash is so freakin huge and influential right now. A decision to move to SC2 could literally mean thousands of new fans switching over from BW to either watch their favourite terran, or realise that the top players in the world are finally moving to SC2. I personally hope he switches, as i would much rather see SC2 bloom and prosper even more brightly than SC1 did!
It will not be impressive to see his magic instant army anymore.
You know, when the commentator follows Flash's dropships/vultures/MM group around the map for a while, then they tragically die, zooms back into his base and suddenly the US Army has been created and is good to go.
On April 30 2011 21:33 Garmer wrote: has more accomplishments because tthese are other times, with more perhaps type of tournament, dunno now, but i think if boxer nada or july were still 18 eyars old, they could match him without problem
the age play a fundamental role here...
No it doesn't play a fundamental role the players from now are just a lot better than the players 10 years ago. Just look at Jaedong he is nearing retirement age ( 24 I think? ) but still tearing it up.
no jaedong have 20 now, so i'm right, the age play a fundamental role in broodwar
when you are 18-20 years old it's easy to being good, i want to see jeadong and flash when they reach 25-30 years, what they can do....
go watch the awesome micro of boxer when he was 20, or the perfect nada macro when he was 20, or july muta micro...your underestimate these legend, by saying that flash could crush them easily if they still had 18-20 years
On April 30 2011 21:33 Garmer wrote: has more accomplishments because tthese are other times, with more perhaps type of tournament, dunno now, but i think if boxer nada or july were still 18 eyars old, they could match him without problem
the age play a fundamental role here...
No it doesn't play a fundamental role the players from now are just a lot better than the players 10 years ago. Just look at Jaedong he is nearing retirement age ( 24 I think? ) but still tearing it up.
no jaedong have 20 now, so i'm right, the age play a fundamental role in broodwar
when you are 18-20 years old it's easy to being good, i want to see jeadong and flash when they reach 25-30 years, what they can do....
go watch the awesome micro of boxer when he was 20, or the perfect nada macro when he was 20, or july muta micro...your underestimate these legend, by saying that flash could crush them easily if they still had 18-20 years
i've been watching pro broodwar since 2003, and i have to say that i've never seen someone as dominant as flash... not even savior, not even Nada or boxer himself...
boxer was known for his strategyc plays and micro... but geez... FlaSh's strategys are just, on a whole new level... i mean ...perfect whraith harrass into BC's...
Jaedong How do you see the future of StarCraft: BroodWar and will you change to StarCraft 2? - I will definitely change to StarCraft II as I feel that StarCraft 2 is having a higher status then StarCraft: Broodwar. We will see more international tournaments in SC2 compared to StarCraft: Broodwar and this will make the change natural for me. I want to build my reputation abroad and reach out to the international audience but when I decide to change game I can not say, it can be today, it can be tomorrow it can be in a couple of years. Flash "There is much talk in Europe that this may be the last final between you and Jaedong because of Starcraft 2’s strong advance. How does it feel to hear such a thing? - There are plenty of opportunities to see us in Korea and it is definitely not the last chance to see us play against each other since we will continue to play Starcraft: BW for at least five more years. After WCG it's quiet for about a month so I will try to have some vacation."
On May 01 2011 18:02 Legatus Lanius wrote: its 100% certain that flash at age 18 is better than nada/boxer/july at any age
lol no, you cant' be 100% sure, If they were born 18 years ago, how can you be sure that they will lose 100% to flash?...this is stupid
Because some of us have actually seen these guys play and not only heard the stories. Boxer is God and Nada is the greatest ever but Flash now is much, much better than they ever were and if you don't understand this, it only shows that you haven't followed BW much.
On May 01 2011 18:21 LwReisen wrote: So many people here are stating that Flash, JD, etc. would automatically be "elite" if they switched to sc2.
That belief is sorely misplaced.
I'd post why, but it'd just get me a warning and possibly a tempban.
In other words, you'd post something stupid because that is how you get warnings and tempbans. Well played.
On May 01 2011 18:21 LwReisen wrote: So many people here are stating that Flash, JD, etc. would automatically be "elite" if they switched to sc2. That belief is sorely misplaced.
I'd post why, but it'd just get me a warning and possibly a tempban.
Idra, Jinro, july, nada, huk, boxer, mc, fruitdealer, and many more, were not even close to be at flash's and jd's level of play, but they are top at sc2...
On May 01 2011 18:02 Legatus Lanius wrote: its 100% certain that flash at age 18 is better than nada/boxer/july at any age
lol no, you cant' be 100% sure, If they were born 18 years ago, how can you be sure that they will lose 100% to flash?...this is stupid
Because some of us have actually seen these guys play and not only heard the stories. Boxer is God and Nada is the greatest ever but Flash now is much, much better than they ever were and if you don't understand this, it only shows that you haven't followed BW much.
nuff said btw, FlaSh is god... boxer is the Emperor >.<...
On May 01 2011 18:21 LwReisen wrote: So many people here are stating that Flash, JD, etc. would automatically be "elite" if they switched to sc2. That belief is sorely misplaced.
I'd post why, but it'd just get me a warning and possibly a tempban.
Idra, Jinro, july, nada, huk, boxer, mc, fruitdealer, and many more, were not even close to be at flash's and jd's level of play, but they are top at sc2...
not misplaced at all
I wouldn't call any of the bolded ones "elite"...
Honestly. Idra has fallen well short of the expectations the community has placed on him, which by definition means he's nowhere near elite - he's not even the best Zerg in his own country (arguably)
Jinro and HuK are rated highly because they're Code S. Both tend to struggle in foreigner tournaments. HuK won a MLG that had 32 players in an overall talent pool that would be lucky to be a fifth as good as what was in the most recent MLG - so you can essentially throw that out; at least Jinro's MLG win had 128 players.
Jinro is much, much closer to elite status than HuK.
People rate BoxeR and NaDa highly because of their BW achievements, not because of their SC2 achievements; they're in the same bracket as Idra.
MC = best player in the world. Undeniable. Even if he does seem to be slumping right now. July is an excellent zerg and him coming over has made a huge impact. FruitDealer won the first GSL, and since then I don't know a great deal about him so I'll give you this one.
On May 01 2011 18:37 Garmer wrote: sry but i do believe that flash isn't much better than these legends
and no, i'm not only heard the stories, i have watch all of them
i'm done with this.
Why do you keep posting?
Boxer in his prime was microing a drop ship with 2 tanks in it while floating on 2k minerals. It was fucking amazing for its time, but that's not the point.
I think Broodwar skill really matters tremendously.
In Europe and the US, we see former BW players pretty much on par with former WC3 and other RTS players (even top class WC3 players such as Lyn, Grubby, Moon don't exceed that level). But in Korea where the BW players were so much ahead of the rest of the world, we see former not-really-top BW players (I mean cmon, Boxer and NaDa and others had their best days behind them already, they were not top class anymore) dominating and probably beeing stronger than the rest of the world, again: MC, July, MVP.
Those players who were best in BW when SC2 came out didn't even switch, but some of the players on the level right after them. And those are ahead in SC2 now. I think that makes it extremely likely that if the elite of broodwar would switch, they would be absurdly good in SC2, too.
Longest and worst digression of a thread ever. It is poorly named, but the point of the thread is MC's perspective. Seriously though, I can't even watch the interview because of the shaking. They need to use a tripod and not put him in front of a window.
MC didn't just point out Flash, he basically said any of the top bw progamers should be able to do well because they know how to be professionals in games and used Flash and JD as examples.
It's really still too early to talk about anything with certainty in SC2 without it being slightly proven or shown in games/results. SC2 is so volatile as a game still. Timings and new builds are too strong. It's incredible enough that players like MC and MVP have even more than one gsl win. Skill wise, I'd put other players up there with them, but they haven't gotten as lucky and haven't been able to adjust as well with the changes in the game.
Boxer and the others in their "prime" were worse at SC1 than when they retired and switched to sc2, that's just a fact
The game constantly evolved so much since then that it's not even close to being a valid argument and they just weren't able to keep up with the newer generation
that Garmer guy was just saying that if Boxer had grown up in Flash's generation to play modern sc, he'd be at least on the same level as Flash. Or, alternatively, that if Flash had grown up in Boxer's generation to play early 2000s sc, he wouldn't dominate Boxer.
It's an indefensible and unassailable claim because its completely hypothetical, and a rather irrelevant tangent besides. Ignore him, please.
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
On May 01 2011 19:08 Hinanawi wrote: I feel like Flash's talent would be wasted on SC2. Maybe it'll be a different story when HotS and LotV are out.
I feel you worded this badly. What you were meant to say is: "Why would Flash change to sc2 and risk not being able to win when he can continue to earn a living playing BW"
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
What? Maybe in the foreign scene, but in the Korean scene, every single top player is from BW, not WC3. MC, MVP, MKP, Nada, July, Nestea, FD, Losira are what I think most people would consider the top players currently and they are all from BW. If you look at all the former WC3 players - Check, Ensnare, Maka, Lyn, Moon, etc.. none of them are even close to as good as the BW players. Even the current second tier and rising stars are mostly from BW - Tester, Killer, Bomber, MMA, Leenock, sC, and so on... WC3 players just aren't on the same level as BW players and you are delusional if you actually believe they are.
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: oGs MC the world's best StarCraft 2 player
quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset
(1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1)
You need to see his skill in a relative perspective, compare him to others. His achievements are untouched by anyone else and he is winning more than anyone else, that is all that matters. What you think of him as a player is irrelevant.
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
What? Maybe in the foreign scene, but in the Korean scene, every single top player is from BW, not WC3. MC, MVP, MKP, Nada, July, Nestea, FD, Losira are what I think most people would consider the top players currently and they are all from BW. If you look at all the former WC3 players - Check, Ensnare, Maka, Lyn, Moon, etc.. none of them are even close to as good as the BW players. Even the current second tier and rising stars are mostly from BW - Tester, Killer, Bomber, MMA, Leenock, sC, and so on... WC3 players just aren't on the same level as BW players and you are delusional if you actually believe they are.
it's got nothing to do with war3 or bw players being inherently better than each other. in the foreign scene, war3 was much larger than bw and you could actually be "pro." all the foreign bw players were amateur. now look at korea; their bw scene is magnitudes larger than the war3 scene, so it makes sense that there will be a lot more good bw pros than war3 pros just because there's a much deeper talent pool.
On May 01 2011 18:02 Legatus Lanius wrote: its 100% certain that flash at age 18 is better than nada/boxer/july at any age
lol no, you cant' be 100% sure, If they were born 18 years ago, how can you be sure that they will lose 100% to flash?...this is stupid
so what you are saying is that if flash was born in the same period as boxer, boxer would be better?
not better, but equal at least
On May 01 2011 19:05 jellyfish wrote: that Garmer guy was just saying that if Boxer had grown up in Flash's generation to play modern sc, he'd be at least on the same level as Flash. Or, alternatively, that if Flash had grown up in Boxer's generation to play early 2000s sc, he wouldn't dominate Boxer.
It's an indefensible and unassailable claim because its completely hypothetical, and a rather irrelevant tangent besides. Ignore him, please.
exactly this
and the point in the end, is that you(general) can't compare them, they come from two different generation
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
What? Maybe in the foreign scene, but in the Korean scene, every single top player is from BW, not WC3. MC, MVP, MKP, Nada, July, Nestea, FD, Losira are what I think most people would consider the top players currently and they are all from BW. If you look at all the former WC3 players - Check, Ensnare, Maka, Lyn, Moon, etc.. none of them are even close to as good as the BW players. Even the current second tier and rising stars are mostly from BW - Tester, Killer, Bomber, MMA, Leenock, sC, and so on... WC3 players just aren't on the same level as BW players and you are delusional if you actually believe they are.
it's got nothing to do with war3 or bw players being inherently better than each other. in the foreign scene, war3 was much larger than bw and you could actually be "pro." all the foreign bw players were amateur. now look at korea; their bw scene is magnitudes larger than the war3 scene, so it makes sense that there will be a lot more good bw pros than war3 pros just because there's a much deeper talent pool.
Explain why the top Chinese players are all former BW players as well, then. WC3 is and was much bigger in China than BW ever was, yet all the current top Chinese players are from BW (LoveTT, XiaoT, Super, Loner, F91, etc)
On May 01 2011 19:05 jellyfish wrote: that Garmer guy was just saying that if Boxer had grown up in Flash's generation to play modern sc, he'd be at least on the same level as Flash. Or, alternatively, that if Flash had grown up in Boxer's generation to play early 2000s sc, he wouldn't dominate Boxer.
It's an indefensible and unassailable claim because its completely hypothetical, and a rather irrelevant tangent besides. Ignore him, please.
There's no way of speculating how well Flash would do if he grew up in Boxer's era, but there is absolutely no chance Boxer even in his prime would succeed in the current brood war scene. Modern brood war requires strong macro mechanics (although macro and speed alone isn't enough to be great), which Boxer simply never had.
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
Would also be made up of mostly (Korean)ex- brood war players (MVP, Nestea, MKP, etc). Let me set something straight for you. NONE of the non-Korean brood war veterans currently playing SC2 were anything compared to the highest level players. Idra, Dimaga, Sen, White-ra, ret, tyler, etc. none of them were any better than your typical Korean brood war B teamer. Surely you can see the flaw in comparing world class WC3 players against mediocre (by professional standards) brood war players.
you r also forgetting that sc2 come out when bw was amost dead in EU/NA and only handful of active bw "pros" switched to sc2 (last bw wcg was a joke), there are alot of great players missing, majority of bw scene grew up, now have jobs and no time to play sc2 on a cempetetive level. still when they do they usually are great players without much practice (look on mondragon, i even remember draco playing in beta in few zotacs his play was sick good too even without any game experience)
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
What? Maybe in the foreign scene, but in the Korean scene, every single top player is from BW, not WC3. MC, MVP, MKP, Nada, July, Nestea, FD, Losira are what I think most people would consider the top players currently and they are all from BW. If you look at all the former WC3 players - Check, Ensnare, Maka, Lyn, Moon, etc.. none of them are even close to as good as the BW players. Even the current second tier and rising stars are mostly from BW - Tester, Killer, Bomber, MMA, Leenock, sC, and so on... WC3 players just aren't on the same level as BW players and you are delusional if you actually believe they are.
it's got nothing to do with war3 or bw players being inherently better than each other. in the foreign scene, war3 was much larger than bw and you could actually be "pro." all the foreign bw players were amateur. now look at korea; their bw scene is magnitudes larger than the war3 scene, so it makes sense that there will be a lot more good bw pros than war3 pros just because there's a much deeper talent pool.
Explain why the top Chinese players are all former BW players as well, then. WC3 is and was much bigger in China than BW ever was, yet all the current top Chinese players are from BW (LoveTT, XiaoT, Super, Loner, F91, etc)
WC3 is still alive in China so none of the top players have switched over, unlike BW.
XiaoT is from WC3, though (he retired a few years ago).
It'd be neat if KeSPA and Blizzard teamed up (sadly it won't happen... unless all the lawsuits are a way to hide some epic collaboration >.>) and allowed BW players to play in SC2 tournaments (KeSPA doesn't allow this currently I think).
Though of course even if that happened, some players would want to focus on one game instead of trying to play two. (Some WC3 players play SC2 and WC3 though).
Am I the only one who find this discussion somewhat funny since the statement that Flash would be good in SC2 is in my opinion one of the least controversial statements you can actually make.
People who say that Flash wont do extremely well needs to know this is Flash,with macro,AMAZING gamesense, and micro that far surpasses any current sc2 player that is playing. Those who isnt too familiar with Flash, or JD,bisu for that matter, need to watch their BW games to know what i and other BW watchers are talking about.
On May 01 2011 19:05 jellyfish wrote: that Garmer guy was just saying that if Boxer had grown up in Flash's generation to play modern sc, he'd be at least on the same level as Flash. Or, alternatively, that if Flash had grown up in Boxer's generation to play early 2000s sc, he wouldn't dominate Boxer.
It's an indefensible and unassailable claim because its completely hypothetical, and a rather irrelevant tangent besides. Ignore him, please.
There's no way of speculating how well Flash would do if he grew up in Boxer's era, but there is absolutely no chance Boxer even in his prime would succeed in the current brood war scene. Modern brood war requires strong macro mechanics (although macro and speed alone isn't enough to be great), which Boxer simply never had.
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
Would also be made up of mostly (Korean)ex- brood war players (MVP, Nestea, MKP, etc). Let me set something straight for you. NONE of the non-Korean brood war veterans currently playing SC2 were anything compared to the highest level players. Idra, Dimaga, Sen, White-ra, ret, tyler, etc. none of them were any better than your typical Korean brood war B teamer. Surely you can see the flaw in comparing world class WC3 players against mediocre (by professional standards) brood war players.
QFT, well said dude.
On May 01 2011 20:14 LastMan wrote: you r also forgetting that sc2 come out when bw was amost dead in EU/NA and only handful of active bw "pros" switched to sc2 (last bw wcg was a joke), there are alot of great players missing, majority of bw scene grew up, now have jobs and no time to play sc2 on a cempetetive level. still when they do they usually are great players without much practice (look on mondragon, i even remember draco playing in beta in few zotacs his play was sick good too even without any game experience)
there was no "bw pros" outside of korea.
the only foreigner BW pro was IdrA, and "a handul of active bw pros" is wrong, cause sen, tyler, dimaga, ret, white-ra were not PRO in bw, just really good amateurs...
nor ret or tyler got their progamer licence. even if they were living at a pro house, didn't get to be official pro gamers.
On May 01 2011 20:42 XenOsky- wrote:the only foreigner BW pro was IdrA, and "a handul of active bw pros" is wrong, cause sen, tyler, dimaga, ret, white-ra were not PRO in bw, just really good amateurs...
nor ret or tyler got their progamer licence. even if they were living at a pro house, didn't get to be official pro gamers.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Legionnaire be considered 'pro' since he participated in the 2004 Proleague?
On May 01 2011 20:42 XenOsky- wrote:the only foreigner BW pro was IdrA, and "a handul of active bw pros" is wrong, cause sen, tyler, dimaga, ret, white-ra were not PRO in bw, just really good amateurs...
nor ret or tyler got their progamer licence. even if they were living at a pro house, didn't get to be official pro gamers.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Legionnaire be considered 'pro' since he participated in the 2004 Proleague?
Yea and Elky, Grrrr and Assem too ( if i remember correctly ) but they are all retired for a very long time whereas White-Ra, Tyler, Dimaga etc... are still active.
On April 30 2011 10:55 Onlinejaguar wrote: Saying that Flash would do well in SC2 is kind of an obvious statement.
Would have to agree with this. Anybody who has seen a FPVOD of Jaedong or Flash can see they are on a different level than even players like MVP (best bw player to come to sc2).
Nada/July?
But yeah its a real no brainer if you had to pick someone from BW to do well in SC2 it would be Flash or JD.
Well I guess he meant at the time of switching. Neither NaDa or July was in shape when SC2 came out.
On May 01 2011 20:42 XenOsky- wrote: there was no "bw pros" outside of korea.
the only foreigner BW pro was IdrA, and "a handul of active bw pros" is wrong, cause sen, tyler, dimaga, ret, white-ra were not PRO in bw, just really good amateurs...
nor ret or tyler got their progamer licence. even if they were living at a pro house, didn't get to be official pro gamers.
And Idra was the worst progamer in Korea. The immensity of the skill gaps between different kinds of players(high level korean amateurs versus b-team progamers, b-teamers versus a-teamers, normal a-teamers versus s-class, different time periods etc) makes it so hard to judge anything like whether WC3 players are outperforming SC2 players. I think the argument is pretty pointless though. Get a guy who's good at RTS games, stick him in SC2, he'll probably do well. He may need more or less adjustment depending on how similar the game he's coming from is to SC2, but it's not like microing a Blademaster curses you to never consistently produce workers in all your life. If you have talent and you spend time and effort to become a good SC2 player, why wouldn't you become one, regardless of where you come from?
And since it's still coming up: Even July and Nada in their primes were not objectively as skilled as a modern high level BW pro. Everyone is so good now, it's crazy.
Absolutely, It's obvious true that SC1 and SC2 are different game. But it doesn't mean there isn't any connection between them. Anyway, Switch to SC2 gonna be inevitable choice for Big4 (Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu) including every BW players if they want more life as progamer, Because SC2 needs less physical movement than BW. So, if they'll have passion for game until they take switch, we can watch how BW player's talent (strategy, tactics, control, insight for opponent's mind state and so on...) gonna work on SC2.
I'm not really too familiar with the BW scene, but do people in general think that the "big4" will eventually switch over to SC2? Have the players themselves said anything on the subject? It'd be huge if they did, but isn't BW still alive and kicking in SK?
On May 02 2011 03:23 darthfoley wrote: I'm not really too familiar with the BW scene, but do people in general think that the "big4" will eventually switch over to SC2? Have the players themselves said anything on the subject? It'd be huge if they did, but isn't BW still alive and kicking in SK?
Seems like most people think that if it does happen(which is up in the air, maybe even kind of unlikely) it won't be really soon. Jaedong said back in like October that he thinks he'll switch one day, when the time is right, and that part of the reason for that was wanting to participate in a more international community. Who knows if he's ever going to, though. He said it could be tomorrow, or it could be years, and it's not like anyone can hold him to it.
Fucking Kespa should just allow their players to choose instead of making adhesion contracts. >=(
Jaedong is obviously eager to come over.
On May 01 2011 20:25 Popss wrote: Am I the only one who find this discussion somewhat funny since the statement that Flash would be good in SC2 is in my opinion one of the least controversial statements you can actually make.
And if you had actually read the thread, you won't find anyone disagreeing with said statement.
The discussion revolves around the question how good he'd be. And opinions range from dominating the scene (mostly stalwart BW fans looking to put down SC2), to among the top tier of players after a couple months of training (compromising fans) to good, but not great, ultimately forgettable (mostly SC2 fans looking to put down BW).
On May 02 2011 03:09 Pizza_man wrote: Absolutely, It's obvious true that SC1 and SC2 are different game. But it doesn't mean there isn't any connection between them. Anyway, Switch to SC2 gonna be inevitable choice for Big4 (Flash, Jaedong, Stork, Bisu) including every BW players if they want more life as progamer, Because SC2 needs less physical movement than BW. So, if they'll have passion for game until they take switch, we can watch how BW player's talent (strategy, tactics, control, insight for opponent's mind state and so on...) gonna work on SC2.
You're talking as if switching to SC2 was some kind of a necessity. BW is way better established in Korea than SC2.
SC2 players should stop talking about BW progamers switching to SC2. It's getting really annoying.
On May 02 2011 03:33 Bobster wrote: Fucking Kespa should just allow their players to choose instead of making adhesion contracts. >=(
On May 01 2011 20:25 Popss wrote: Am I the only one who find this discussion somewhat funny since the statement that Flash would be good in SC2 is in my opinion one of the least controversial statements you can actually make.
And if you had actually read the thread, you won't find anyone disagreeing with said statement.
The discussion revolves around the question how good he'd be. And opinions range from dominating the scene (mostly stalwart BW fans looking to put down SC2), to among the top tier of players after a couple months of training (compromising fans) to good, but not great, ultimately forgettable (mostly SC2 fans looking to put down BW).
:p
How does KeSPA not allow progamers choose? Are you saying contracted BW players should be allowed to play SC2 instead because they might want to? For your infornation, the players who wanted to switch to SC2 already did that. ;;
On May 01 2011 20:42 XenOsky- wrote:the only foreigner BW pro was IdrA, and "a handul of active bw pros" is wrong, cause sen, tyler, dimaga, ret, white-ra were not PRO in bw, just really good amateurs...
nor ret or tyler got their progamer licence. even if they were living at a pro house, didn't get to be official pro gamers.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't Legionnaire be considered 'pro' since he participated in the 2004 Proleague?
Legionnaire, GiYom, Assem, IdrA & Rekrul are the only foreign progamers... the ones before them i consider amateurs, cause there was no real pro-gaming scene.
On May 01 2011 09:40 lynx.oblige wrote: Starcraft reach its limit? lol? Why would Flash even be guaranteed to play Terran anyhow. Somehow I feel like he would like Zerg.
God I hope not. Flash playing anything but Terran will upset me. Same with JD and Bisu.
Flash's Carrier micro isn't too bad, and apparently he played a bit of Zerg before becoming fully Terran and going pro.
Jaedong's Terran is also pretty good, especially his bio play in ZvT. Also, I heard that he started out playing Terran before switching over to Zerg and going pro.
I'm not saying they're bad. I bet their off races are amazing. But it'd upset me knowing they aren't sticking to their roots.
I wonder if Savior still mains zerg in SCII?
Savior plays BW still. People were not happy about it though.
Also i doubt JD is eager to go over at all, he just gave a friendly answer to a question. Otherwise he just would switch wouldn't he. Saying it's somehow KeSPA's fault is retarded. Damn his team for giving him a 6 figure contract!
On May 01 2011 19:08 Hinanawi wrote: I feel like Flash's talent would be wasted on SC2. Maybe it'll be a different story when HotS and LotV are out.
I feel you worded this badly. What you were meant to say is: "Why would Flash change to sc2 and risk not being able to win when he can continue to earn a living playing BW"
Which is a completely valid point btw.
MVP, Nestea, Marineking, Supernova, Losira, July, TOP, Nada were all WC3 players weren't they?
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
On May 01 2011 19:08 Hinanawi wrote: I feel like Flash's talent would be wasted on SC2. Maybe it'll be a different story when HotS and LotV are out.
I feel you worded this badly. What you were meant to say is: "Why would Flash change to sc2 and risk not being able to win when he can continue to earn a living playing BW"
Which is a completely valid point btw.
MVP, Nestea, Marineking, Supernova, Losira, July, TOP, Nada were all WC3 players weren't they?
Yeah, but clearly Thorzain, Kas, Hasuobs and Naniwa are better. Because, you know, TSL! (I also think that people like Bomber, Ryung and MMA are probably better than some of the names you listed.)
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
What? Maybe in the foreign scene, but in the Korean scene, every single top player is from BW, not WC3. MC, MVP, MKP, Nada, July, Nestea, FD, Losira are what I think most people would consider the top players currently and they are all from BW. If you look at all the former WC3 players - Check, Ensnare, Maka, Lyn, Moon, etc.. none of them are even close to as good as the BW players. Even the current second tier and rising stars are mostly from BW - Tester, Killer, Bomber, MMA, Leenock, sC, and so on... WC3 players just aren't on the same level as BW players and you are delusional if you actually believe they are.
it's got nothing to do with war3 or bw players being inherently better than each other. in the foreign scene, war3 was much larger than bw and you could actually be "pro." all the foreign bw players were amateur. now look at korea; their bw scene is magnitudes larger than the war3 scene, so it makes sense that there will be a lot more good bw pros than war3 pros just because there's a much deeper talent pool.
Yes, of course, however, the fact is that when we look at the overall (lately this hasn't been the case) tournament results, even in the foreigner scene, BW players have been more succesful. Feel free to prove me wrong on this.
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
On May 01 2011 19:08 Hinanawi wrote: I feel like Flash's talent would be wasted on SC2. Maybe it'll be a different story when HotS and LotV are out.
I feel you worded this badly. What you were meant to say is: "Why would Flash change to sc2 and risk not being able to win when he can continue to earn a living playing BW"
Which is a completely valid point btw.
MVP, Nestea, Marineking, Supernova, Losira, July, TOP, Nada were all WC3 players weren't they?
For me, Mvp alone is proof enough that sc1's top tier would destroy this game if they came over.
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
On May 01 2011 19:08 Hinanawi wrote: I feel like Flash's talent would be wasted on SC2. Maybe it'll be a different story when HotS and LotV are out.
I feel you worded this badly. What you were meant to say is: "Why would Flash change to sc2 and Risk not being able to win when he can continue to earn a living playing BW"
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
On May 01 2011 19:08 Hinanawi wrote: I feel like Flash's talent would be wasted on SC2. Maybe it'll be a different story when HotS and LotV are out.
I feel you worded this badly. What you were meant to say is: "Why would Flash change to sc2 and Risk not being able to win when he can continue to earn a living playing BW"
On May 02 2011 03:33 Bobster wrote: Fucking Kespa should just allow their players to choose instead of making adhesion contracts. >=(
Jaedong is obviously eager to come over.
On May 01 2011 20:25 Popss wrote: Am I the only one who find this discussion somewhat funny since the statement that Flash would be good in SC2 is in my opinion one of the least controversial statements you can actually make.
And if you had actually read the thread, you won't find anyone disagreeing with said statement.
The discussion revolves around the question how good he'd be. And opinions range from dominating the scene (mostly stalwart BW fans looking to put down SC2), to among the top tier of players after a couple months of training (compromising fans) to good, but not great, ultimately forgettable (mostly SC2 fans looking to put down BW).
:p
How does KeSPA not allow progamers choose? Are you saying contracted BW players should be allowed to play SC2 instead because they might want to? For your infornation, the players who wanted to switch to SC2 already did that. ;;
The players who switched over to SC2 were disallowed by Kespa to play BW, that's what I meant.
Kespa is continuing to do its darndest to try and stem SC2's popularity. Scaring their players into staying with them or they'll get their license taken away for even trying their hand at SC2 is just one of those tactics.
The wc3 players are outperforming the bw players at sc2 overall.
<--- WARNING: this may be percieved as a troll
Yes, MC is the best player in the world, but most of the rest of the top <insert arbitrary number here> ......
On May 01 2011 19:08 Hinanawi wrote: I feel like Flash's talent would be wasted on SC2. Maybe it'll be a different story when HotS and LotV are out.
I feel you worded this badly. What you were meant to say is: "Why would Flash change to sc2 and risk not being able to win when he can continue to earn a living playing BW"
Which is a completely valid point btw.
MVP, Nestea, Marineking, Supernova, Losira, July, TOP, Nada were all WC3 players weren't they?
Yeah, but clearly Thorzain, Kas, Hasuobs and Naniwa are better. Because, you know, TSL! (I also think that people like Bomber, Ryung and MMA are probably better than some of the names you listed.)
On May 02 2011 03:33 Bobster wrote: Fucking Kespa should just allow their players to choose instead of making adhesion contracts. >=(
Jaedong is obviously eager to come over.
On May 01 2011 20:25 Popss wrote: Am I the only one who find this discussion somewhat funny since the statement that Flash would be good in SC2 is in my opinion one of the least controversial statements you can actually make.
And if you had actually read the thread, you won't find anyone disagreeing with said statement.
The discussion revolves around the question how good he'd be. And opinions range from dominating the scene (mostly stalwart BW fans looking to put down SC2), to among the top tier of players after a couple months of training (compromising fans) to good, but not great, ultimately forgettable (mostly SC2 fans looking to put down BW).
:p
How does KeSPA not allow progamers choose? Are you saying contracted BW players should be allowed to play SC2 instead because they might want to? For your infornation, the players who wanted to switch to SC2 already did that. ;;
The players who switched over to SC2 were disallowed by Kespa to play BW, that's what I meant.
Kespa is continuing to do its darndest to try and stem SC2's popularity. Scaring their players into staying with them or they'll get their license taking away for even trying their hand at SC2 is just one of those tactics.
Guemchi switched to SC2, then went back to BW. explain how Guemchi was able to avoid Kespa's wrath or are you just making stuff up?
On May 02 2011 04:13 Bobster wrote:The players who switched over to SC2 were disallowed by Kespa to play BW, that's what I meant.
lol, they were not disallowed to play BW. Get a clue.
You do not re-sign your contract/depart from your team > you lose your progaming license (because only players on KeSPA teams can have one, others have a semi-progaming license) > you're not allowed to play in events that require a progaming license (PL, WL, OSL, MSL, etc.). Simple as that. ;;
Kespa is continuing to do its darndest to try and stem SC2's popularity. Scaring their players into staying with them or they'll get their license taken away for even trying their hand at SC2 is just one of those tactics.
On May 02 2011 03:33 Bobster wrote: Fucking Kespa should just allow their players to choose instead of making adhesion contracts. >=(
Jaedong is obviously eager to come over.
On May 01 2011 20:25 Popss wrote: Am I the only one who find this discussion somewhat funny since the statement that Flash would be good in SC2 is in my opinion one of the least controversial statements you can actually make.
And if you had actually read the thread, you won't find anyone disagreeing with said statement.
The discussion revolves around the question how good he'd be. And opinions range from dominating the scene (mostly stalwart BW fans looking to put down SC2), to among the top tier of players after a couple months of training (compromising fans) to good, but not great, ultimately forgettable (mostly SC2 fans looking to put down BW).
:p
How does KeSPA not allow progamers choose? Are you saying contracted BW players should be allowed to play SC2 instead because they might want to? For your infornation, the players who wanted to switch to SC2 already did that. ;;
The players who switched over to SC2 were disallowed by Kespa to play BW, that's what I meant.
Kespa is continuing to do its darndest to try and stem SC2's popularity. Scaring their players into staying with them or they'll get their license taking away for even trying their hand at SC2 is just one of those tactics.
Guemchi switched to SC2, then went back to BW. explain how Guemchi was able to avoid Kespa's wrath or are you just making stuff up?
I have no idea about Guemchi's case, I'm not aware of the technical details surrounding his BW -> SC2 -> BW switches.
Last I heard is that you get your Korean progamer license taken away by Kespa (i.e. have to hand it in beforehand) if you plan to play SC2. I think this is correct, yes?
What other reason would Kespa have for doing this other than creating another barrier for their BW players to switch? Seems very much in line with their previous tactics and considering the [legal] dispute between Kespa and Blizzard surrounding the SC2 launch.
But if there is another explanation for that, I'd love to hear it and be educated about it.
On May 02 2011 04:13 Bobster wrote:The players who switched over to SC2 were disallowed by Kespa to play BW, that's what I meant.
lol, they were not disallowed to play BW. Get a clue.
You do not re-sign your contract/depart from your team > you lose your progaming license (because only players on KeSPA teams can have one, others have a semi-progaming license) > you're not allowed to play in events that require a progaming license (PL, WL, OSL, MSL, etc.). Simple as that. ;;
So are you saying anyone can keep their progaming license while competing in SC2?
On May 01 2011 18:21 rift wrote: Actual interview quotes from WCG 2010:
Jaedong How do you see the future of StarCraft: BroodWar and will you change to StarCraft 2? - I will definitely change to StarCraft II as I feel that StarCraft 2 is having a higher status then StarCraft: Broodwar. We will see more international tournaments in SC2 compared to StarCraft: Broodwar and this will make the change natural for me. I want to build my reputation abroad and reach out to the international audience but when I decide to change game I can not say, it can be today, it can be tomorrow it can be in a couple of years. Flash "There is much talk in Europe that this may be the last final between you and Jaedong because of Starcraft 2’s strong advance. How does it feel to hear such a thing? - There are plenty of opportunities to see us in Korea and it is definitely not the last chance to see us play against each other since we will continue to play Starcraft: BW for at least five more years. After WCG it's quiet for about a month so I will try to have some vacation."
But this was back in 2010, before sc2 came out. How about now? And why would flash say at least 5 more years? So we wont see flash or jaedong play until 2015? really?
Guys, gogo just watch some BroodWar. It is amazing.
If you just all argue-lovers follow BW scene and try at least a little to understand whats going on there, you'll understand why no one here needs to "switch" anywhere.
On May 01 2011 18:21 rift wrote: Actual interview quotes from WCG 2010:
Jaedong How do you see the future of StarCraft: BroodWar and will you change to StarCraft 2? - I will definitely change to StarCraft II as I feel that StarCraft 2 is having a higher status then StarCraft: Broodwar. We will see more international tournaments in SC2 compared to StarCraft: Broodwar and this will make the change natural for me. I want to build my reputation abroad and reach out to the international audience but when I decide to change game I can not say, it can be today, it can be tomorrow it can be in a couple of years. Flash "There is much talk in Europe that this may be the last final between you and Jaedong because of Starcraft 2’s strong advance. How does it feel to hear such a thing? - There are plenty of opportunities to see us in Korea and it is definitely not the last chance to see us play against each other since we will continue to play Starcraft: BW for at least five more years. After WCG it's quiet for about a month so I will try to have some vacation."
But this was back in 2010, before sc2 came out. How about now? And why would flash say at least 5 more years? So we wont see flash or jaedong play until 2015? really?
lol? WCG happened after sc2 came out.If say,sc2 surpassed BW after 5 years,JD and flash will still need to go for military etc, so we wont see them playing sc2 for quite a long time.
On May 01 2011 18:21 rift wrote: Actual interview quotes from WCG 2010:
Jaedong How do you see the future of StarCraft: BroodWar and will you change to StarCraft 2? - I will definitely change to StarCraft II as I feel that StarCraft 2 is having a higher status then StarCraft: Broodwar. We will see more international tournaments in SC2 compared to StarCraft: Broodwar and this will make the change natural for me. I want to build my reputation abroad and reach out to the international audience but when I decide to change game I can not say, it can be today, it can be tomorrow it can be in a couple of years. Flash "There is much talk in Europe that this may be the last final between you and Jaedong because of Starcraft 2’s strong advance. How does it feel to hear such a thing? - There are plenty of opportunities to see us in Korea and it is definitely not the last chance to see us play against each other since we will continue to play Starcraft: BW for at least five more years. After WCG it's quiet for about a month so I will try to have some vacation."
But this was back in 2010, before sc2 came out. How about now? And why would flash say at least 5 more years? So we wont see flash or jaedong play until 2015? really?
Probably because his current contract runs that long. At least that's the only explanation I can come up with for that statement.
I think Flash would switch to SC2 if he can play a special Quad starcraft game when u play 4 game of starcraft 2 vs another quad user at once, instead he will be bored ^^
On May 02 2011 04:13 Bobster wrote:The players who switched over to SC2 were disallowed by Kespa to play BW, that's what I meant.
lol, they were not disallowed to play BW. Get a clue.
You do not re-sign your contract/depart from your team > you lose your progaming license (because only players on KeSPA teams can have one, others have a semi-progaming license) > you're not allowed to play in events that require a progaming license (PL, WL, OSL, MSL, etc.). Simple as that. ;;
So are you saying anyone can keep their progaming license while competing in SC2?
It's up to the team. WeMade FOX has two (three? does Soccer play SC2?) former WC3 progamers competing in SC2.
On May 02 2011 04:46 Bobster wrote:Probably because his current contract runs that long. At least that's the only explanation I can come up with for that statement.
Or how about: BW is currently the better spectator sport, is way more competitive (and progamers love competition by default), is more challenging than SC2, gives more real life fame and is way more profitable, especially when you're as good as Flash?
Nevertheless, I think it would be interesting to see one or two show matches from the TBLS. Let them practice up during an off week, then play against a well-known SC2 player. No need to commit to SC2, especially for just one show match. The curious SC2 fans get to see how the current BW gods fare in a new game, and the BW fans won't fear anyone completely switching over to the "inferior" game.
Nada looked quite beastly in his showmatch against TLO back during IEM Cologne, even though he only played SC2 for a week or two and was then still on WeMade Fox's BW team. If the Blizzard vs Kespa bullshit wasn't happening, perhaps we might see some similar show matches.
On May 02 2011 04:46 Bobster wrote:Probably because his current contract runs that long. At least that's the only explanation I can come up with for that statement.
Or how about: BW is currently the better spectator sport, is way more competitive (and progamers love competition by default), is more challenging than SC2, gives more real life fame and is way more profitable, especially when you're as good as Flash?
Makes more sense to me. ;;
agreed. the only thing BW pros are jealous of is SC2's foreigner scene (international fans). but they said the same thing about WC3 and never switched.
On May 01 2011 16:59 DreamRaider wrote: i think they should ask when will players like jaedong or flash finally move over to sc2 I want to know what they think about sc2 Also where can i watch part 2 and 3 of this?
Is this what the sc2 subforum has come to? sitting around waiting for BW players to switch over?
On May 02 2011 04:57 eviltomahawk wrote: Nevertheless, I think it would be interesting to see one or two show matches from the TBLS. Let them practice up during an off week, then play against a well-known SC2 player. No need to commit to SC2, especially for just one show match. The curious SC2 fans get to see how the current BW gods fare in a new game, and the BW fans won't fear anyone completely switching over to the "inferior" game.
Nada looked quite beastly in his showmatch against TLO back during IEM Cologne, even though he only played SC2 for a week or two and was then still on WeMade Fox's BW team. If the Blizzard vs Kespa bullshit wasn't happening, perhaps we might see some similar show matches.
Of course, we don't live in such a utopia...
Remember what Kespa did when NaDa played a showmatch at Gamescom while still a BW player?
On May 02 2011 04:13 Bobster wrote:The players who switched over to SC2 were disallowed by Kespa to play BW, that's what I meant.
lol, they were not disallowed to play BW. Get a clue.
You do not re-sign your contract/depart from your team > you lose your progaming license (because only players on KeSPA teams can have one, others have a semi-progaming license) > you're not allowed to play in events that require a progaming license (PL, WL, OSL, MSL, etc.). Simple as that. ;;
So are you saying anyone can keep their progaming license while competing in SC2?
It's up to the team. WeMade FOX has two (three? does Soccer play SC2?) former WC3 progamers competing in SC2.
Soccer made an application video for NASL, so it's pretty safe to say that he plays SC2.
None of the BW teams have SC2 teams, so I guess it is a problem with Kespa and the teams as well. Want to play SC2? You have to leave your team. Want to leave your team? You have to hand in your progaming license.
On May 02 2011 04:57 eviltomahawk wrote: Nevertheless, I think it would be interesting to see one or two show matches from the TBLS. Let them practice up during an off week, then play against a well-known SC2 player. No need to commit to SC2, especially for just one show match. The curious SC2 fans get to see how the current BW gods fare in a new game, and the BW fans won't fear anyone completely switching over to the "inferior" game.
Nada looked quite beastly in his showmatch against TLO back during IEM Cologne, even though he only played SC2 for a week or two and was then still on WeMade Fox's BW team. If the Blizzard vs Kespa bullshit wasn't happening, perhaps we might see some similar show matches.
Of course, we don't live in such a utopia...
Remember what Kespa did when NaDa played a showmatch at Gamescom while still a BW player?
On May 01 2011 16:59 DreamRaider wrote: i think they should ask when will players like jaedong or flash finally move over to sc2 I want to know what they think about sc2 Also where can i watch part 2 and 3 of this?
Is this what the sc2 subforum has come to? sitting around waiting for BW players to switch over?
Obvious troll bait is obvious. There's really no need for such antagonism and unfair generalization. We're all fans of StarCraft here.
On May 02 2011 04:13 Bobster wrote:The players who switched over to SC2 were disallowed by Kespa to play BW, that's what I meant.
lol, they were not disallowed to play BW. Get a clue.
You do not re-sign your contract/depart from your team > you lose your progaming license (because only players on KeSPA teams can have one, others have a semi-progaming license) > you're not allowed to play in events that require a progaming license (PL, WL, OSL, MSL, etc.). Simple as that. ;;
So are you saying anyone can keep their progaming license while competing in SC2?
It's up to the team. WeMade FOX has two (three? does Soccer play SC2?) former WC3 progamers competing in SC2.
Soccer made an application video for NASL, so it's pretty safe to say that he plays SC2.
On May 02 2011 04:57 eviltomahawk wrote: Nevertheless, I think it would be interesting to see one or two show matches from the TBLS. Let them practice up during an off week, then play against a well-known SC2 player. No need to commit to SC2, especially for just one show match. The curious SC2 fans get to see how the current BW gods fare in a new game, and the BW fans won't fear anyone completely switching over to the "inferior" game.
Nada looked quite beastly in his showmatch against TLO back during IEM Cologne, even though he only played SC2 for a week or two and was then still on WeMade Fox's BW team. If the Blizzard vs Kespa bullshit wasn't happening, perhaps we might see some similar show matches.
Of course, we don't live in such a utopia...
Remember what Kespa did when NaDa played a showmatch at Gamescom while still a BW player?
On May 01 2011 16:59 DreamRaider wrote: i think they should ask when will players like jaedong or flash finally move over to sc2 I want to know what they think about sc2 Also where can i watch part 2 and 3 of this?
Is this what the sc2 subforum has come to? sitting around waiting for BW players to switch over?
Obvious troll bait is obvious. There's really no need for such antagonism and unfair generalization here.
NaDa was playing the 3rd and final game vs TLO, and KesPa stopped him from playing any further.The match was cut short.
Just how the hell does kespa keep players in their grasp anyway? It's just a game thats not made by them, how can they be in a position to tell anyone they cant play it competitively? Someone should sue them
On May 02 2011 04:57 eviltomahawk wrote: Nevertheless, I think it would be interesting to see one or two show matches from the TBLS. Let them practice up during an off week, then play against a well-known SC2 player. No need to commit to SC2, especially for just one show match. The curious SC2 fans get to see how the current BW gods fare in a new game, and the BW fans won't fear anyone completely switching over to the "inferior" game.
Nada looked quite beastly in his showmatch against TLO back during IEM Cologne, even though he only played SC2 for a week or two and was then still on WeMade Fox's BW team. If the Blizzard vs Kespa bullshit wasn't happening, perhaps we might see some similar show matches.
Of course, we don't live in such a utopia...
Remember what Kespa did when NaDa played a showmatch at Gamescom while still a BW player?
What happened?
Kespa called someone at Gamescom in Germany and demanded NaDa stop playing. i think they said it was because someone in Korea was re-streaming it illegally.
On May 02 2011 04:46 Bobster wrote:Probably because his current contract runs that long. At least that's the only explanation I can come up with for that statement.
Or how about: BW is currently the better spectator sport, is way more competitive (and progamers love competition by default), is more challenging than SC2, gives more real life fame and is way more profitable, especially when you're as good as Flash?
Makes more sense to me. ;;
agreed. the only thing BW pros are jealous of is SC2's foreigner scene (international fans). but they said the same thing about WC3 and never switched.
Difference is everyone knew WC3 was going to die at some point (and it is almost dead right now). On the other hand, SC2 is going to have momentum for a very long time to come.
At some point Flash/Jaedong etc. will switch over to SC2. It could be that BW dies. It may just be because they aren't the best anymore and some new 17 year old kid is dominating. But at some point they will definately start playing sc2.
IMO they will dominate this game. Not as much as they dominate BW because the skill ceiling here is much lower. But they will both be awesome SC2 players.
On April 30 2011 10:55 Onlinejaguar wrote: Saying that Flash would do well in SC2 is kind of an obvious statement.
Would have to agree with this. Anybody who has seen a FPVOD of Jaedong or Flash can see they are on a different level than even players like MVP (best bw player to come to sc2).
And here I thought July was the best from BW. If BW does die off, then Please taekbangleesang go dominate SC2.
On May 02 2011 05:12 Niruz wrote: Just how the hell does kespa keep players in their grasp anyway? It's just a game thats not made by them, how can they be in a position to tell anyone they cant play it competitively? Someone should sue them
It's not just some random dudes in suits, it's the organizational body which authorizes events, players, and teams as "official", and it's ruled by the huge corporate sponsors which maintain the progaming teams. Anyone who leaves kespa will probably just lose their sponsor and they won't have the ability to participate in proleague or either individual league. The power works basically the same way your employer's power works. He writes your check. You do what he says.
Flash absolutely has the potential to do well in SC2. With some training he could get diamond after a week and maybe even masters after a month with hard training.
DoomsVille wrote: Not as much as they dominate BW because the skill ceiling here is much lower. But they will both be awesome SC2 players.
Really presumptious statement. The skill required to be number one in BW a year in was exponentially lower than the skill possessed by Jaedong/Flash now. Why would you presume the same won't happen in SC2? There's no player in the world right now with flawless macro or even close, as the players practice more and more eventually people will get closer to that level of perfection and the skill cap rises.
For me every single current Code S player (yes even Rain) would easilly win the GSL Open 1 which Fruitdealer won, the standard has already improved massively, and we've only had one year, let's see where the standard is in five years.
On May 02 2011 05:06 Bobster wrote:Soccer made an application video for NASL, so it's pretty safe to say that he plays SC2.
None of the BW teams have SC2 teams, so I guess it is a problem with Kespa and the teams as well. Want to play SC2? You have to leave your team. Want to leave your team? You have to hand in your progaming license.
Pretty clever, actually.
WeMade FOX is a BW team and it does have an SC2 line-up. No offence, but do you even think before you post? I just told you a BW team has SC2 players and you tell me none do. ;/
As for handing in your progaming license - it has always been like that or at least for several years. Stop attributing everything to your shiny SC2, not everything revolves around it, especially not the BW scene in Korea. You are not given a progaming license unless you're drafted by a progaming team. If you leave your team, you're left with a semi-progaming license. Nothing has changed since the announcement of SC2.
Do you honestly expect KeSPA to allow their players to waste their time competing in SC2, while Blizzard is actively trying to kill the BW scene in Korea? "Yay, let's support our enemy!" Sounds like a plan to me...
What happened?
ESL made a deal with WeMade FOX that there's not gonna be any restreams in Korea (due to the KeSPA-Blizzard issue) and they couldn't keep their part of the agreement. WeMade made NaDa leave the game.
It is kind of interesting that WeMade is allowed to have an SC2 team, and it still shares the same name as their BW squad. Wasn't there some drama when a Kespa member/subsidiary tried to sponsor a GSL, and Kespa wouldn't let them do it? And yet here's WeMade FOX in SC2, and I think Gom is even owned by CJ Media or something. I feel like I don't fully understand the politics of the situation.
I guess it's possible that the sponsorship rumors weren't true. People were talking about it as a past event when there was talk of KT sponsoring GSL and the World Championship.
nobody is the world's best player. just because you take risks doesn't make you good. remember how he lost to one banshee? hahahahahaha MC isn't good, he's lucky when his risks pay off and now he's in the up and down matches because people are figuring out he's actually easy to beat
DoomsVille wrote: Not as much as they dominate BW because the skill ceiling here is much lower. But they will both be awesome SC2 players.
Really presumptious statement. The skill required to be number one in BW a year in was exponentially lower than the skill possessed by Jaedong/Flash now. Why would you presume the same won't happen in SC2? There's no player in the world right now with flawless macro or even close, as the players practice more and more eventually people will get closer to that level of perfection and the skill cap rises.
For me every single current Code S player (yes even Rain) would easilly win the GSL Open 1 which Fruitdealer won, the standard has already improved massively, and we've only had one year, let's see where the standard is in five years.
because SC2 was developed specifically to lower the skill ceiling and encourage 1-base play. it'll take a drastic shift in developer philosophy with the expansions to change this.
On May 02 2011 05:19 starsucks wrote: Flash absolutely has the potential to do well in SC2. With some training he could get diamond after a week and maybe even masters after a month with hard training.
wtf? is this a troll post? i got to masters after 3 weeks of playing not to hard man... flash can get masters in 5 hours
On May 02 2011 05:06 Bobster wrote:Soccer made an application video for NASL, so it's pretty safe to say that he plays SC2.
None of the BW teams have SC2 teams, so I guess it is a problem with Kespa and the teams as well. Want to play SC2? You have to leave your team. Want to leave your team? You have to hand in your progaming license.
Pretty clever, actually.
WeMade FOX is a BW team and it does have an SC2 line-up. No offence, but do you even think before you post? I just told you a BW team has SC2 players and you tell me none do. ;/
As for handing in your progaming license - it has always been like that or at least for several years. Stop attributing everything to your shiny SC2, not everything revolves around it, especially not the BW scene in Korea. You are not given a progaming license unless you're drafted by a progaming team. If you leave your team, you're left with a semi-progaming license. Nothing has changed since the announcement of SC2.
Do you honestly expect KeSPA to allow their players to waste their time competing in SC2, while Blizzard is actively trying to kill the BW scene in Korea? "Yay, let's support our enemy!" Sounds like a plan to me...
I worded that badly, I meant that none of the BW players on WeMade FOX are the ones who switched to SC2. Their SC2 team is made up entirely of WC3 players. Even then, they seem to be the singular exception, not the rule. I honestly have to say that I do not completely understand the situation and the politics behind it.
And well, if you say nothing's changed and the rules have always been this way, and not in response to SC2 - that just means that there was something wrong with the rules all along, in my opinion. Things should have changed, and things should be different now that SC2 is there. I always think that the players and their needs should be prioritised, but I don't get that impression from Kespa's prohibitive and restricting system.
But it probably is as you say - Kespa really does think of Blizzard as their enemy, and that does explain about their stance on SC2 and preventing players from switching.
edit:
On May 02 2011 05:29 Turgid wrote: It is kind of interesting that WeMade is allowed to have an SC2 team, and it still shares the same name as their BW squad. Wasn't there some drama when a Kespa member/subsidiary tried to sponsor a GSL, and Kespa wouldn't let them do it? And yet here's WeMade FOX in SC2, and I think Gom is even owned by CJ Media or something. I feel like I don't fully understand the politics of the situation.
DoomsVille wrote: Because SC2 was developed specifically to lower the skill ceiling and encourage 1-base play. it'll take a drastic shift in developer philosophy with the expansions to change this.
Pure speculation. There's been loads of great macro games recently and it seems to me like there's less and less one base games now than six months ago. Blizzard removing maps like Steppes from the pool and adding Taldarim suggests they're encouraging longer and macro based games.
On May 02 2011 05:19 starsucks wrote: Flash absolutely has the potential to do well in SC2. With some training he could get diamond after a week and maybe even masters after a month with hard training.
wtf? is this a troll post? i got to masters after 3 weeks of playing not to hard man... flash can get masters in 5 hours
it better be, would perhaps be realistic if you forced him to play feet only.
On May 02 2011 05:19 starsucks wrote: Flash absolutely has the potential to do well in SC2. With some training he could get diamond after a week and maybe even masters after a month with hard training.
wtf? is this a troll post? i got to masters after 3 weeks of playing not to hard man... flash can get masters in 5 hours
DoomsVille wrote: Because SC2 was developed specifically to lower the skill ceiling and encourage 1-base play. it'll take a drastic shift in developer philosophy with the expansions to change this.
Pure speculation. There's been loads of great macro games recently and it seems to me like there's less and less one base games now than six months ago. Blizzard removing maps like Steppes from the pool and adding Taldarim suggests they're encouraging longer and macro based games.
Well, it seems that the game was designed to be "faster". I think there were interviews about that and you can see some aspects of the game design encourage shorter games(for instance expansions aren't as good in many situations because of the way mineral saturation works). The community kinda rebelled against it and the map changes were made as a result of that, but it's hard to say how far they're willing to go.
DoomsVille wrote: Not as much as they dominate BW because the skill ceiling here is much lower. But they will both be awesome SC2 players.
Really presumptious statement. The skill required to be number one in BW a year in was exponentially lower than the skill possessed by Jaedong/Flash now. Why would you presume the same won't happen in SC2? There's no player in the world right now with flawless macro or even close, as the players practice more and more eventually people will get closer to that level of perfection and the skill cap rises.
For me every single current Code S player (yes even Rain) would easilly win the GSL Open 1 which Fruitdealer won, the standard has already improved massively, and we've only had one year, let's see where the standard is in five years.
because SC2 was developed specifically to lower the skill ceiling and encourage 1-base play. it'll take a drastic shift in developer philosophy with the expansions to change this.
And SC1 was developed to encourage Korean progamers to play it 12 hours a day and provide macro matches with insane amounts of multitasking? (Hint: No.)
On May 02 2011 05:19 starsucks wrote: Flash absolutely has the potential to do well in SC2. With some training he could get diamond after a week and maybe even masters after a month with hard training.
wtf? is this a troll post? i got to masters after 3 weeks of playing not to hard man... flash can get masters in 5 hours
On May 02 2011 05:29 Turgid wrote: It is kind of interesting that WeMade is allowed to have an SC2 team, and it still shares the same name as their BW squad. Wasn't there some drama when a Kespa member/subsidiary tried to sponsor a GSL, and Kespa wouldn't let them do it? And yet here's WeMade FOX in SC2, and I think Gom is even owned by CJ Media or something. I feel like I don't fully understand the politics of the situation.
I guess it's possible that the sponsorship rumors weren't true. People were talking about it as a past event when there was talk of KT sponsoring GSL and the World Championship.
Technically, WeMade Fox's SC2 team is completely comprised of WC3 players, who aren't really bound to KeSPA as much as the BW players are since Blizzard has a much legal greater control over the WC3 scene. Since there aren't really any major KeSPA-sanctioned WC3 competitions, the WC3 players are pretty much free to do anything without any fear of being booted out of a major Korean tournament or team league, which are pretty much nonexistent right now since OGN/MBC no longer have a WC3 league and GOM is focusing entirely on SC2.
Also, I think there have been at least 2 instances of Korean companies backing out of GSL sponsorship deals due to pressure from their KeSPA-affiliated parent companies. I think subsidiaries of SKT and KT were rumored to have attempted sponsorship deals but backed out before anything really solidified.
The fact that WeMade is a kespa member and that kespa apparently does not want its members involved in SC2 at all is what concerns me there more than any kespa-sanctioned WC3 competitions. I just find it inconsistent that they let WeMade have an SC2 team but they supposedly(key word) wouldn't let SKT sponsor a GSL.
DoomsVille wrote: Because SC2 was developed specifically to lower the skill ceiling and encourage 1-base play. it'll take a drastic shift in developer philosophy with the expansions to change this.
Pure speculation. There's been loads of great macro games recently and it seems to me like there's less and less one base games now than six months ago. Blizzard removing maps like Steppes from the pool and adding Taldarim suggests they're encouraging longer and macro based games.
Well, it seems that the game was designed to be "faster". I think there were interviews about that and you can see some aspects of the game design encourage shorter games(for instance expansions aren't as good in many situations because of the way mineral saturation works). The community kinda rebelled against it and the map changes were made as a result of that, but it's hard to say how far they're willing to go.
Funny how they also design 1 of the three races being crippled in those small maps. And most of the map pool is still medium-small and not large. And finally another race is also weak but in larger maps so what a fail design lol...
On May 02 2011 05:19 starsucks wrote: Flash absolutely has the potential to do well in SC2. With some training he could get diamond after a week and maybe even masters after a month with hard training.
lol that's the cutest comment I've seen in a while.
On May 02 2011 05:19 starsucks wrote: Flash absolutely has the potential to do well in SC2. With some training he could get diamond after a week and maybe even masters after a month with hard training.
lol that's the cutest comment I've seen in a while.
I smell troll? He'd be owning the top 5 sc2 players within 1 monthXD
DoomsVille wrote: Not as much as they dominate BW because the skill ceiling here is much lower. But they will both be awesome SC2 players.
Really presumptious statement. The skill required to be number one in BW a year in was exponentially lower than the skill possessed by Jaedong/Flash now. Why would you presume the same won't happen in SC2? There's no player in the world right now with flawless macro or even close, as the players practice more and more eventually people will get closer to that level of perfection and the skill cap rises.
For me every single current Code S player (yes even Rain) would easilly win the GSL Open 1 which Fruitdealer won, the standard has already improved massively, and we've only had one year, let's see where the standard is in five years.
because SC2 was developed specifically to lower the skill ceiling and encourage 1-base play. it'll take a drastic shift in developer philosophy with the expansions to change this.
1-base play may have been encouraged in GSL season 1 beacuse everyone was bad, but any 1basing player as of now is completely reliant on a cheese timing push to win, and most if not all can be held easily
On May 02 2011 05:12 Niruz wrote: Just how the hell does kespa keep players in their grasp anyway? It's just a game thats not made by them, how can they be in a position to tell anyone they cant play it competitively? Someone should sue them
What the fuck are some of you even talking about. KeSPA is the progaming teams organization and they pay the players, for playing BW. SC2 is nothing to do with them. Players can do whatever they like, but obviously they are not going to keep their original contracts when they don't even play the game.
Flash/Jaedong would dominate sc2 of course, but not because their sc1 skills would carryover so well they'd instantly dominate. The reason they would do so well is work ethic. That's probably the reason they succeeded for so long in sc2; just crazy persistence and discipline. Practicing 12+ hours/day for several months to become a champion is an accomplishment, but its something many people are probably capable of if the motivation is there. Doing it for years, ignoring distractions, and avoiding slump-inducing activities is what takes absolutely amazing dedication and separates Flash/JD from the Nada/ooV/Savior/Chojja types.
I dont think well see flash or jd playing sc2 anytime soon. Hopefully HoS does for sc2 what bw did for sc and the scene can continue long enough to see S class players transfer over. Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max. Like someone said it took flash like 1 month to get his BW pro license lol....he wouldnt dominate like in bw just because sc2 is much more volatile and not 100% based on skill. But hed compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Is anyone else really anticipating the news of a current S-class BW pro switching over? I can't wait to see who the first will be ^^ it makes me so excited thinking about it!
On May 02 2011 06:21 Lumbridge wrote: Is anyone else really anticipating the news of a current S-class BW pro switching over? I can't wait to see who the first will be ^^ it makes me so excited thinking about it!
On May 02 2011 05:35 Bobster wrote:I worded that badly, I meant that none of the BW players on WeMade FOX are the ones who switched to SC2. Their SC2 team is made up entirely of WC3 players. Even then, they seem to be the singular exception, not the rule. I honestly have to say that I do not completely understand the situation and the politics behind it.
And it makes perfect sense! From business perspective it'd be a suicide if they actually helped sc2 flourish, considering blizzard wants to put KeSPA out of the equation...
And well, if you say nothing's changed and the rules have always been this way, and not in response to SC2 - that just means that there was something wrong with the rules all along, in my opinion. Things should have changed, and things should be different now that SC2 is there. I always think that the players and their needs should be prioritised, but I don't get that impression from Kespa's prohibitive and restricting system.
What exactly is wrong with the rules? The fact that players can't break a formal contract they've signed with their team? This is how it works for every single reputable sport, ffs. Do you see Cristiano Ronaldo going like "Hey, Jose, I'm gonna play for Barca this weekend, is that okay with you? No? Well, I'm gonna play regardless, even if it's against my contract." T_____T
The reason why BW is so established in Korea is because the corporate sponsors can be certain that their players won't do whatever the fuck they want.
Also why would anything change after the release of sc2? How is sc2 relevant in any way here?
And what do you mean by "players needs should be prioritized"? It's their fucking job. If they want to quit, they can quit, nobody forces them to do anything. ;; This is ridiculous. Are you seriously saying contracted players should be able to choose to play whatever game they want to play? That's as if Real bought Ronaldo and he then was like "I'm switching to basketball, guys." See how insane that is?
But it probably is as you say - Kespa really does think of Blizzard as their enemy, and that does explain about their stance on SC2 and preventing players from switching.
They have every reason to. Like I said, blizzard started it all and they want to kill BW in Korea to make room for sc2. So why would they not consider blizzard their enemy?
If it wasn't blizzard's stupid politics sc2 in Korea would've been ten times as big, with corporate sponsors allover the place, cable TV broadcasters and so on.
I mean he doesn't play competitively anymore as he.....you know...got banned. He didn't?? I saw many games of him in earlier times and now you tell me these were all fakes. Oo Wow, did not realize that. Search on yt for savior sc2. Quite some stuff. Wow this is awkward...
this isn't a bold statement at all :S It's pretty obvious that if you dominate at SC1 you will do even better in SC2 considering SC2 is much easier to play than SC1 (mechanically at least).
When beta started he was still a progamer, during the period beta was running is when he was caught and had to appear in court multiple times. So i get the feeling he probably wasn't playing any SC2 during this time.
Yeah, I think there were some well known Savior smurfs on the ladder. I remember people talking a little bit about the Savior on the Korean ladder before GSL3; of course they knew it wasn't The Savior, but it did turn out to be ST_Monster who had some real potential(at least IMO, and I remember seeing an almost favorable critique of him from Idra). But The Savior won't be in SC2 because GomTV is continuing the Kespa ban on matchfixers, or at least on Savior himself since I'm not sure of all the details, and in fact Xeris said NASL won't let him in either. So if Savior wants to play he'd have to just do it as an amateur like he is in BW.
On May 02 2011 05:19 starsucks wrote: Flash absolutely has the potential to do well in SC2. With some training he could get diamond after a week and maybe even masters after a month with hard training.
a week? you kidding me? dude masters isnt rly hard to get and especially not for a player like flash which is a fucking god. Roflcopter getting top grandmasters will not be rly hard for a player like flash.
i play starcraft 2 and still play bw left and here. Some comments here of people who never played bw are so redicilous. To those people you have no clue what you are talking about.
On May 02 2011 06:15 Drowsy wrote: Flash/Jaedong would dominate sc2 of course, but not because their sc1 skills would carryover so well they'd instantly dominate. The reason they would do so well is work ethic. That's probably the reason they succeeded for so long in sc2; just crazy persistence and discipline. Practicing 12+ hours/day for several months to become a champion is an accomplishment, but its something many people are probably capable of if the motivation is there. Doing it for years, ignoring distractions, and avoiding slump-inducing activities is what takes absolutely amazing dedication and separates Flash/JD from the Nada/ooV/Savior/Chojja types.
yeah sure because boxer had not dedication , rotfl he play for like ten years, flash only for 5...
On May 02 2011 07:30 skinnyrl wrote: i play starcraft 2 and still play bw left and here. Some comments here of people who never played bw are so redicilous. To those people you have no clue what you are talking about.
i have played bw more then you(i played it until end of 2007(from 2000)) and i have reached b-.
DoomsVille wrote: Not as much as they dominate BW because the skill ceiling here is much lower. But they will both be awesome SC2 players.
Really presumptious statement. The skill required to be number one in BW a year in was exponentially lower than the skill possessed by Jaedong/Flash now. Why would you presume the same won't happen in SC2? There's no player in the world right now with flawless macro or even close, as the players practice more and more eventually people will get closer to that level of perfection and the skill cap rises.
For me every single current Code S player (yes even Rain) would easilly win the GSL Open 1 which Fruitdealer won, the standard has already improved massively, and we've only had one year, let's see where the standard is in five years.
because SC2 was developed specifically to lower the skill ceiling and encourage 1-base play. it'll take a drastic shift in developer philosophy with the expansions to change this.
And SC1 was developed to encourage Korean progamers to play it 12 hours a day and provide macro matches with insane amounts of multitasking? (Hint: No.)
Can't believe some people argue against the fact that SC2 was made for easier play.
For one thing, among many things, is decreased difficulty to macro. Worker auto-mining, scv auto-repair, ability to select multiple production buildings for production/WP setting, etc. in BW, to play at top level, one must be able to have high enough apm to do proper macro, as well as microing and making proper game decisions.
In SC2, any normal Joe can macro properly with ease.
There's no doubt there's decreased skill ceiling and gap between top players and avg players. In BW, u wouldn't expect to see Flash losing to an average progamer. Maybe he would lose one game out of a hundred. If he's to transfer to SC2, I would expect Flash to lose to average players from time to time, just cause the game isn't as competitive in nature as BW.
Flash or JD switching over to sc2 would be such a huge waste of talent imo. SCII is a great game in many ways but so often games just come down to bo coin flips and taking the right risks at the right time. I don't think anyone could dominate sc2 for a long period of time like flash has in broodwar, the game is just a lot more random and mechanical skills alone won't differentiate players in a game where macro is so incredibly easy.
On April 30 2011 10:50 amarillo wrote: oGs MC the world's best StarCraft 2 player
quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset
(1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1)
Beeing the best doesnt mean beeing perfect.. does it ?
He isn't the best though... I'm interested to see how the Patch 1.33 changes will effect MC's play as a lot of his attacks are 1/2 base timing attacks such as the 6 gate or variations of the 4 gate. Also, it's so early in StarCraft 2 that it's hard to say definitively that there is a best player.
However, I think you can say it for match-ups.
For example, Mvp has the best TvT, Nestea has the best ZvZ, you could argue that MC has the best PvP (PvP is a joke of a match-up at the moment. Then you could say the best TvZ is players like Mvp again and the best PvZ is players like san or MC. But I mean both Mvp and MC (the two best players in the world in my opinion) both have weak match-ups (TvP and PvT respectively).
Flash will obviously rape if he switches over... the real question is... will Flash change races when going to SCII?
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
I don't think that's a very good comparison. The fundamentals of SCII are the same as BW... not so with soccer and basketball.
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
Michael Jordan is a funny example cause he actually played pro baseball for a while after Basketball. But it's a stupid comparison to make either way. More like saying Michael Jordan switching to netball.
On May 02 2011 06:15 Drowsy wrote: Flash/Jaedong would dominate sc2 of course, but not because their sc1 skills would carryover so well they'd instantly dominate. The reason they would do so well is work ethic. That's probably the reason they succeeded for so long in sc2; just crazy persistence and discipline. Practicing 12+ hours/day for several months to become a champion is an accomplishment, but its something many people are probably capable of if the motivation is there. Doing it for years, ignoring distractions, and avoiding slump-inducing activities is what takes absolutely amazing dedication and separates Flash/JD from the Nada/ooV/Savior/Chojja types.
yeah sure because boxer had not dedication , rotfl he play for like ten years, flash only for 5...
On May 02 2011 07:30 skinnyrl wrote: i play starcraft 2 and still play bw left and here. Some comments here of people who never played bw are so redicilous. To those people you have no clue what you are talking about.
i have played bw more then you(i played it until end of 2007(from 2000)) and i have reached b-.
Boxer was only consistent for 2-3 of those years, and in his prime, the competition was relatively worse. The game just wasn't played at as high of a level as it is now, Flash's dominance is far more impressive, and I guarantee he puts in more hours now than Boxer put in during his reign.
what a stupid title, obviously he would do good but no one knows how good because of the easier mechanics. This like all other bw topics in the sc2 forum where it ends up where people just spew out how terrible sc2 is and how much better bw is.
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
He tried playing baseball after his basketball career right? And was terrible at it?
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea:
1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time.
2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs.
3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games.
4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year.
If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh.
Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene.
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea:
1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time.
2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs.
3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games.
4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year.
If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh.
Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene.
I agree with most but saying Flash is the best BW player of all time ^_^. too be fair though I do think it would take Jaedong/Flash more then 2 weeks too get at "top" level. Its a whole new game with a lot of different shit, I could see it taking a month about too be able to play at high level.
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
Lemme guess.
You've never played BW, or just played Fastest possible or UMS in BW
You obviously haven't explored TLPD enough, because I'm pretty sure watching any of the VODS of Flash, Jaedong, Bisu and Stork in the last 2 years, will have shown you how INCREDIBLE they are
FYI, MVP is like a borderline A teamer, who had a sub-par winning ratio in BW. People give him a lot of credit because he IS the best to switch over so far, and he took a game off Flash (the 48 minute EPIC T v T). So yea - if a borderline A teamer can rip up SCII, then I don't know what the current "gods" of BW are going to do if they switch over. Grandmasters in 1 month is a conservative estimate. GSL Code A in 1-2 qualifiers is expected. However, the game is still young and all the timings / strategies haven't been explored, which makes some games a coin-flick at times unfortunately.
That said, S-classers lile Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Stork; even A-teamers like calm, zero, shine (zerg), stats, best, (protoss) and Fantasy, Mind, Leta, Light, Baby (Terran) would hit the top of SCII in no time.
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
Statements like these make me laugh. Kids who don't understand BW shouldn't pretend to be able to understand the past.
Just in case you didn't understand that (I somehow doubt it): past data shows SC2 is dominated by ex-BW pros, and the most skilled ex-BW pros at the time of SC2 release (e.g. MC, MVP etc.) have shown a positive correlation between BW skill with SC2 success. Thus, we use past data to try and predict the future. Which is miles better than NOT using past data and predicting the future, which is what a ton of SC2-only noobs are trying to do.
There's that kid who was on the Root Team for only a month or so... and having only played SC2 for like a month or so amount of time before he switched to another team... but his mechanics alone already allowed him to do great and he's now on some team with Artosis and he's near the top of NA GM already It doesn't take too long to learn the game and the strategies... he already has one half the requires already developed from prior experiences from BW...
They also already have a pretty good mindset in practices and can play many hours a day to be prepared.
Idra was one of those more mechanically superior players and also understands strategies and why they're used... he switched over to SC2 and is doing quite well...
that match with Nada vs TLO some time in 2010? he barely played the game and ended up beating TLO on steppes of war with tank lines/turrets/vikings/floating raxes... quite convincingly...
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea:
1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time.
2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs.
3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games.
4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year.
If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh.
Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene.
I agree with most but saying Flash is the best BW player of all time ^_^. too be fair though I do think it would take Jaedong/Flash more then 2 weeks too get at "top" level. Its a whole new game with a lot of different shit, I could see it taking a month about too be able to play at high level.
Hmm, I dunno about a month. Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, NaDa has played SC2 for 1-2 weeks (i.e. not practiced, but just played it) and was able to take a game from TLO (who was one of the best European players at the time IIRC), and Flash is on a whole different level than other RTS players (he cut his practice hours and practiced the lategame in his head because he said it was more efficient O_o). As far as I'm concerned, getting a progaming licence after a month of training as a rookie is WAY harder than becoming a top player at a game, which is similar to a game you're already godly at.
Depends on what you mean by "the best." I don't think you can argue that Flash is not the best player skill wise. He was in every single StarLeague final last year, carried his team to the WL finals and won the WCG. He made Jaedong look like a scrub in finals (and I'm a hardcore Jaedong fan).
As for talent, personally I think becoming a progamer in a month beats anything. ^_____^
On May 02 2011 17:43 maybenexttime wrote: Hmm, I dunno about a month. Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, NaDa has played SC2 for 1-2 weeks (i.e. not practiced, but just played it) and was able to take a game from TLO (who was one of the best European players at the time IIRC), and Flash is on a whole different level than other RTS players (he cut his practice hours and practiced the lategame in his head because he said it was more efficient O_o). As far as I'm concerned, getting a progaming licence after a month of training as a rookie is WAY harder than becoming a top player at a game, which is similar to a game you're already godly at.
Depends on what you mean by "the best." I don't think you can argue that Flash is not the best player skill wise. He was in every single StarLeague final last year, carried his team to the WL finals and won the WCG. He made Jaedong look like a scrub in finals (and I'm a hardcore Jaedong fan).
As for talent, personally I think becoming a progamer in a month beats anything. ^_____^
At this point in time it's going to take more than a month for players to transfer and be good. Thinking otherwise is ridiculous. SC2 maybe of the same vein but no matter how good you are you're not going to be able to get the experience that you'd need to understand every situation in so short a time. The game has developed a long way since a few weeks from release. Just having good macro and micro isn't enough to make you a pro maybe at release, but not today.
Heh, practicing lategame in his head makes sense. I've always wondered why pro's don't use savegames of certain situations and then play from there each time (at least in shows i've watched it never seemed like they did, only full games). So in a TvZ you could skip the start and go straight to dealing with muta harass. Or skip forward like 20 minutes and have 2 players practice their carrier vs goliath micro over and over to prepare a snipe. There's probably loads of other examples too, but surely it would help train players at particular things that are bad at, or training for specific games.
nalgene the kid you're talking about is Gosi[Terran] who was an a-/a ranked BW player. Along with Kolll and MorroW he was definitely a young player you could easily point out as having natural skill. I believe he was infact near the top of the ladder within a week, despite not even knowing what all the units even did. Which flies in the face of all the SC2 nuts claiming that it's a totally different game and somehow the skills don't translate.
On May 02 2011 17:43 maybenexttime wrote: Hmm, I dunno about a month. Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, NaDa has played SC2 for 1-2 weeks (i.e. not practiced, but just played it) and was able to take a game from TLO (who was one of the best European players at the time IIRC), and Flash is on a whole different level than other RTS players (he cut his practice hours and practiced the lategame in his head because he said it was more efficient O_o). As far as I'm concerned, getting a progaming licence after a month of training as a rookie is WAY harder than becoming a top player at a game, which is similar to a game you're already godly at.
Depends on what you mean by "the best." I don't think you can argue that Flash is not the best player skill wise. He was in every single StarLeague final last year, carried his team to the WL finals and won the WCG. He made Jaedong look like a scrub in finals (and I'm a hardcore Jaedong fan).
As for talent, personally I think becoming a progamer in a month beats anything. ^_____^
At this point in time it's going to take more than a month for players to transfer and be good. Thinking otherwise is ridiculous. SC2 maybe of the same vein but no matter how good you are you're not going to be able to get the experience that you'd need to understand every situation in so short a time. The game has developed a long way since a few weeks from release. Just having good macro and micro isn't enough to make you a pro maybe at release, but not today.
You'd be surprised how far a player can progress given a month's worth of 12 hour days as practice. Sure there's plenty of nuances to the matchups, but mass-gaming is going to show you a lot, and quickly. Especially for a player like Flash who picks up on things so brilliantly.
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea:
1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time.
2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs.
3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games.
4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year.
If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh.
Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene.
I agree with most but saying Flash is the best BW player of all time ^_^. too be fair though I do think it would take Jaedong/Flash more then 2 weeks too get at "top" level. Its a whole new game with a lot of different shit, I could see it taking a month about too be able to play at high level.
Hmm, I dunno about a month. Maybe, maybe not. Like I said, NaDa has played SC2 for 1-2 weeks (i.e. not practiced, but just played it) and was able to take a game from TLO (who was one of the best European players at the time IIRC), and Flash is on a whole different level than other RTS players (he cut his practice hours and practiced the lategame in his head because he said it was more efficient O_o). As far as I'm concerned, getting a progaming licence after a month of training as a rookie is WAY harder than becoming a top player at a game, which is similar to a game you're already godly at.
Depends on what you mean by "the best." I don't think you can argue that Flash is not the best player skill wise. He was in every single StarLeague final last year, carried his team to the WL finals and won the WCG. He made Jaedong look like a scrub in finals (and I'm a hardcore Jaedong fan).
As for talent, personally I think becoming a progamer in a month beats anything. ^_____^
This becoming a progamer in a month sounds like a japan manga, where the hero is like a genius, becoming stronger and stronger faster than anyone. 8)
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
I don't like this whole "BW is the base game, easier than BW = autoaim blabla". BW has build in game limitations that were removed in SC2. SC2 is obviously easier but to me it feels like BW had artificial added dificulty in pathing, no MBS etc.
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
I don't like this whole "BW is the base game, easier than BW = autoaim blabla". BW has build in game limitations that were removed in SC2. SC2 is obviously easier but to me it feels like BW had artificial added dificulty in pathing, no MBS etc.
It does have "auto aim," as you could just feedback a group of ghosts by clicking the minimap and this is really easier. Second half shows greatly increased speed/accuracy than manual control.
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
I don't like this whole "BW is the base game, easier than BW = autoaim blabla". BW has build in game limitations that were removed in SC2. SC2 is obviously easier but to me it feels like BW had artificial added dificulty in pathing, no MBS etc.
It does have "auto aim," as you could just feedback a group of ghosts by clicking the minimap.
Okay, that was lame. I guess it's true then. Why the hell would they do that? Give ghosts a bigger area around them so they don't clump with marine/marauder instead. That's just way to easy.
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
I don't like this whole "BW is the base game, easier than BW = autoaim blabla". BW has build in game limitations that were removed in SC2. SC2 is obviously easier but to me it feels like BW had artificial added dificulty in pathing, no MBS etc.
It does have "auto aim," as you could just feedback a group of ghosts by clicking the minimap.
Okay, that was lame. I guess it's true then. Why the hell would they do that? Give ghosts a bigger area around them so they don't clump with marine/marauder instead. That's just way to easy.
Seems perfectly legit... they have something called "Smart Cast" in SC2 and this can be done with larva injects...it's just an interface change that makes the game better anyways...?
the pathing in the other game isn't as bad as most people think... and air units could move 360 degrees motion... only ground units had 8-directional movements...
that video was made on april 29, 2011 so you could do it right now if you wanted
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
I don't like this whole "BW is the base game, easier than BW = autoaim blabla". BW has build in game limitations that were removed in SC2. SC2 is obviously easier but to me it feels like BW had artificial added dificulty in pathing, no MBS etc.
It does have "auto aim," as you could just feedback a group of ghosts by clicking the minimap and this is really easier. Second half shows greatly increased speed/accuracy than manual control.
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
I don't like this whole "BW is the base game, easier than BW = autoaim blabla". BW has build in game limitations that were removed in SC2. SC2 is obviously easier but to me it feels like BW had artificial added dificulty in pathing, no MBS etc.
It does have "auto aim," as you could just feedback a group of ghosts by clicking the minimap.
Okay, that was lame. I guess it's true then. Why the hell would they do that? Give ghosts a bigger area around them so they don't clump with marine/marauder instead. That's just way to easy.
Kinda shows that SC2 players are just base-lining mechanical skill from SC2, in the same way as BW players are baselining theirs from BW.
I'm sure in SC3 all the SC2 players will complain how easy it is.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
However, all your examples are from WC3, which is a much more different from BW than SC2. There is not enough crossover between WC3 and SC2 to warrant as much comparison as between BW and SC2.
Plus, Grubby and Moon hadn't been playing SC2 as long and as much as the other players. Check has been in GSL since the Open Seasons, and Naniwa has been winning online tournaments since the Beta. Meanwhile, Grubby and Moon have been playing in WC3 tournaments up until very recently, with Grubby putting serious time into SC2 only a few months ago. Moon had also been competing in some WC3 tournaments around the time he was in GSL.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
However, all your examples are from WC3, which is a much more different from BW than SC2. There is not enough crossover between WC3 and SC2 to warrant as much comparison as between BW and SC2.
Plus, Grubby and Moon hadn't been playing SC2 as long and as much as the other players. Check has been in GSL since the Open Seasons, and Naniwa has been winning online tournaments since the Beta. Meanwhile, Grubby and Moon have been playing in WC3 tournaments up until very recently, with Grubby putting serious time into SC2 only a few months ago. Moon had also been competing in some WC3 tournaments around the time he was in GSL.
So what it shows is that Flash/Jaedong wouldn't switch to Sc2 and within a month or two start crushing nerds left, right and centre because neither did the Wc3 top players and nor do they look like doing so, if anything players like Lyn and Moon are slipping futher away from the top level, as is Check. All three games are pretty different, I don't think BW is super similar to Sc2 and Wc3 hugely different.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
However, all your examples are from WC3, which is a much more different from BW than SC2. There is not enough crossover between WC3 and SC2 to warrant as much comparison as between BW and SC2.
Plus, Grubby and Moon hadn't been playing SC2 as long and as much as the other players. Check has been in GSL since the Open Seasons, and Naniwa has been winning online tournaments since the Beta. Meanwhile, Grubby and Moon have been playing in WC3 tournaments up until very recently, with Grubby putting serious time into SC2 only a few months ago. Moon had also been competing in some WC3 tournaments around the time he was in GSL.
So what it shows is that Flash/Jaedong wouldn't switch to Sc2 and within a month or two start crushing nerds left, right and centre because neither did the Wc3 top players and nor do they look like doing so, if anything players like Lyn and Moon are slipping futher away from the top level, as is Check. All three games are pretty different, I don't think BW is super similar to Sc2 and Wc3 hugely different.
No it doesn't show that because the 2 top players from wc3 you named are splitting time between those games which means they're not fully dedicated to one game.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
However, all your examples are from WC3, which is a much more different from BW than SC2. There is not enough crossover between WC3 and SC2 to warrant as much comparison as between BW and SC2.
Plus, Grubby and Moon hadn't been playing SC2 as long and as much as the other players. Check has been in GSL since the Open Seasons, and Naniwa has been winning online tournaments since the Beta. Meanwhile, Grubby and Moon have been playing in WC3 tournaments up until very recently, with Grubby putting serious time into SC2 only a few months ago. Moon had also been competing in some WC3 tournaments around the time he was in GSL.
So what it shows is that Flash/Jaedong wouldn't switch to Sc2 and within a month or two start crushing nerds left, right and centre because neither did the Wc3 top players and nor do they look like doing so, if anything players like Lyn and Moon are slipping futher away from the top level, as is Check. All three games are pretty different, I don't think BW is super similar to Sc2 and Wc3 hugely different.
No it doesn't show that because the 2 top players from wc3 you named are splitting time between those games which means they're not fully dedicated to one game.
Hence random top level RTS'ers can't just crush these BW B teamers at Sc2 with minimal effort like most here claim and neither would Flash or Jaedong.
The WC3 progamers are not up to BW player standards. I recall one good player switching to BW and not making it out of the B-Team, on Wemade Fox although i forgot his nick.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
However, all your examples are from WC3, which is a much more different from BW than SC2. There is not enough crossover between WC3 and SC2 to warrant as much comparison as between BW and SC2.
Plus, Grubby and Moon hadn't been playing SC2 as long and as much as the other players. Check has been in GSL since the Open Seasons, and Naniwa has been winning online tournaments since the Beta. Meanwhile, Grubby and Moon have been playing in WC3 tournaments up until very recently, with Grubby putting serious time into SC2 only a few months ago. Moon had also been competing in some WC3 tournaments around the time he was in GSL.
So what it shows is that Flash/Jaedong wouldn't switch to Sc2 and within a month or two start crushing nerds left, right and centre because neither did the Wc3 top players and nor do they look like doing so, if anything players like Lyn and Moon are slipping futher away from the top level, as is Check. All three games are pretty different, I don't think BW is super similar to Sc2 and Wc3 hugely different.
No it doesn't show that because the 2 top players from wc3 you named are splitting time between those games which means they're not fully dedicated to one game.
Hence random top level RTS'ers can't just crush these BW B teamers at Sc2 with minimal effort like most here claim and neither would Flash or Jaedong.
Possibly not with minimal effort, but what makes Flash and Jaedong so beastly is also their work ethic in addition to their talent.
It took one month of hard practice for Flash to get a progaming license, which is HUGE deal considering how difficult it is for other players when going from amateur to pro in the Korean BW scene. With that kind of work ethic, Flash would easily become competitive within a short time.
On May 02 2011 07:56 gNs.I-Jasa wrote: its like saying michael jordan would be a great soccer player. of course he would be but it will take some time.
...
From a hand-oriented game to a feet-oriented game.
Besides did you forget the time he played baseball?
The proper analogy would be:
It's like MJ switching to Basketball 2, where the ball dribbles itself and the shots have aimbot. But it's not a stretch to say MJ would do extremely well in Bball 2, because the way he gets to the net, or works the defense, or sets up the passing game, all those skills transfer to Bball 2. It's just much easier now. True, this change might cause a greater focus on strategy, but MJ has quite a lot of that.
It's more like a guy switching from a game where there's loads of limitations, the floor is polished so your prone to falling, the ball has no bounce and goals are tiny. When that guy switches to regular soccer he's probably going to do well, but it'll take some adjustment.
Well, obviously Flash and Jaedong couldn't just sit down and obliterate MC and MVP like nothing. They'd at least need some time to read up on the game and get used to it. I would, however, count on that they'd reach the current top of the SC2 scene faster than anyone else have so far.
Don't see that happening though. Chances are BW will outlive SC2 in Korea, and there'll never be any need for the top players to migrate. SC2 does provide an excellent alternative for those who never saw much success in BW though.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
However, all your examples are from WC3, which is a much more different from BW than SC2. There is not enough crossover between WC3 and SC2 to warrant as much comparison as between BW and SC2.
Plus, Grubby and Moon hadn't been playing SC2 as long and as much as the other players. Check has been in GSL since the Open Seasons, and Naniwa has been winning online tournaments since the Beta. Meanwhile, Grubby and Moon have been playing in WC3 tournaments up until very recently, with Grubby putting serious time into SC2 only a few months ago. Moon had also been competing in some WC3 tournaments around the time he was in GSL.
So what it shows is that Flash/Jaedong wouldn't switch to Sc2 and within a month or two start crushing nerds left, right and centre because neither did the Wc3 top players and nor do they look like doing so, if anything players like Lyn and Moon are slipping futher away from the top level, as is Check. All three games are pretty different, I don't think BW is super similar to Sc2 and Wc3 hugely different.
No it doesn't show that because the 2 top players from wc3 you named are splitting time between those games which means they're not fully dedicated to one game.
Hence random top level RTS'ers can't just crush these BW B teamers at Sc2 with minimal effort like most here claim and neither would Flash or Jaedong.
Those are top-level WC3 players not BW players making your argument void, as was previously stated Flash and Jaedong aren't gods JUST because of their talent, they also practice more than most other players. It's safe to assume they would be top players not long after switching.
On May 02 2011 22:46 infinity2k9 wrote: The WC3 progamers are not up to BW player standards. I recall one good player switching to BW and not making it out of the B-Team, on Wemade Fox although i forgot his nick.
He mixed things up a bit. It was FreeDom (Moon's rival at the time he switched) and he was on Samsung Khan. Moon played in inside tournaments in WeMade FOX and had 20% winrate IIRC, not sure whether it was for both A and B team or just B team, though.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
Lol, you look hilariously stupid. Ever heard the quote 'If I lost an arm, I would play WC3."? I forgot who it's by, but you get what I mean. BW players catch on to strategies very well, and because of their extremely good multi-tasking the mechanics of SC2 are immediately out of the way as a problem. I would even go as far as to say that the top few like TBLS would be able to have perfect macro by maybe 15 min into the SC2 midgame, with timings still down to seconds and miliseconds. Edit: And people need to stop saying that BW and SC2 are perfectly equal in the skill required and skill ceiling. BW failures can go to SC2 and make a name out there relatively easily. Think about how hilarious it would be if an SC2 pro player went: "Damn SC2 ain't cutting it for me, I'll try BW." He wouldn't make the B-team.
I feel it's tough to predict people's performance in a game they don't play based on their performance in another game, or other people's performances across several games.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating. We need to see those players come over to SC2 and have them perform. Everything else is just wild speculation coloured by fanboyism to one of the three games, depending where you came from.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
Lol, you look hilariously stupid. Ever heard the quote 'If I lost an arm, I would play WC3."? I forgot who it's by, but you get what I mean. BW players catch on to strategies very well, and because of their extremely good multi-tasking the mechanics of SC2 are immediately out of the way as a problem. I would even go as far as to say that the top few like TBLS would be able to have perfect macro by maybe 15 min into the SC2 midgame, with timings still down to seconds and miliseconds. Edit: And people need to stop saying that BW and SC2 are perfectly equal in the skill required and skill ceiling. BW failures can go to SC2 and make a name out there relatively easily. Think about how hilarious it would be if an SC2 pro player went: "Damn SC2 ain't cutting it for me, I'll try BW." He wouldn't make the B-team.
One day you will realise arguments are won with evidence (which I have provided, at least as much as there is) rather than just saying you're right over and over and over without a shred of anything but pure speculation.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
Lol, you look hilariously stupid. Ever heard the quote 'If I lost an arm, I would play WC3."? I forgot who it's by, but you get what I mean. BW players catch on to strategies very well, and because of their extremely good multi-tasking the mechanics of SC2 are immediately out of the way as a problem. I would even go as far as to say that the top few like TBLS would be able to have perfect macro by maybe 15 min into the SC2 midgame, with timings still down to seconds and miliseconds. Edit: And people need to stop saying that BW and SC2 are perfectly equal in the skill required and skill ceiling. BW failures can go to SC2 and make a name out there relatively easily. Think about how hilarious it would be if an SC2 pro player went: "Damn SC2 ain't cutting it for me, I'll try BW." He wouldn't make the B-team.
One day you will realise arguments are won with evidence (which I have provided, at least as much as there is) rather than just saying you're right over and over and over without a shred of anything but pure speculation.
at least he is more correct than you. all you said was wc3 players suck, therefore bw players must suck too. i applaud your logic or should i say speculation?
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
Lol, you look hilariously stupid. Ever heard the quote 'If I lost an arm, I would play WC3."? I forgot who it's by, but you get what I mean. BW players catch on to strategies very well, and because of their extremely good multi-tasking the mechanics of SC2 are immediately out of the way as a problem. I would even go as far as to say that the top few like TBLS would be able to have perfect macro by maybe 15 min into the SC2 midgame, with timings still down to seconds and miliseconds. Edit: And people need to stop saying that BW and SC2 are perfectly equal in the skill required and skill ceiling. BW failures can go to SC2 and make a name out there relatively easily. Think about how hilarious it would be if an SC2 pro player went: "Damn SC2 ain't cutting it for me, I'll try BW." He wouldn't make the B-team.
I have to agree with this no way any sc2 pro's can even make it to b team if they switch game because sc bw demands more skills than sc2 does .
On May 02 2011 22:34 RvB wrote: No it doesn't show that because the 2 top players from wc3 you named are splitting time between those games which means they're not fully dedicated to one game.
No, they are not. Both are focusing fully on SC2 with Moon having spend quite a long time already. Unless he gave up. Nada, I believe, switched at around the same time as Moon and he has been much, much better and all that while focusing on school at the same time. Then again Nada is Nada.
On May 02 2011 22:42 Blasphemi wrote: Hence random top level RTS'ers can't just crush these BW B teamers at Sc2 with minimal effort like most here claim and neither would Flash or Jaedong.
Flash and Jaedong are not random top level RTSers. They are THE top level RTSers, the likes which are not found outside of BW. I would say the same with pretty much whole A-level BW.
SC2 fanboyism vs BW fanboyism won't produce well thought arguments. Only time will show if they will switch or not. Possible reasons will include burnout, diminished financial gain, losing the dexterity and the endurance to keep up with the game, the excitement of playing a new game and being part of a much more international community.
It will also depend on whether SC2 can survive and get better as an esports throughout the world.
On May 02 2011 21 25 ppshchik wrote: People don't know how arduous and competitive the Broodwar progaming scene is.
IdrA: One of the best non-Korean SC2 players. Was a B-Teamer for years and never qualified from the 1st / 2nd rounds of the OSL qualifiers.
MVP: One of the top SC2 players who's dominating everyone, got Top 8 in MSL as his biggest BW achievement and was ranked 39-45th in Kespa rankings
Flash is a guy who's ranked #1 in Kespa rankings and won multiple MSL's and OSL's. Do the math here.
Grubby - One of the best WC3 players of all time, mediocre even for a foreigner in Sc2.
Moon - One of the best WC3 players of all time, Code B in Sc2.
Lyn - Very high level WC3 player. Mediocre Code S player. Good chance he'll get knocked out in up/down.
Naniwa - Mediocre WC3 player, but the best of the WC3 players in Sc2.
Check - Mediocre WC3 player, consistantly Code S in Sc2.
There is not at all a direct correlation between being the best in BW and WC3 and being the same in Sc2.
Lol, you look hilariously stupid. Ever heard the quote 'If I lost an arm, I would play WC3."? I forgot who it's by, but you get what I mean. BW players catch on to strategies very well, and because of their extremely good multi-tasking the mechanics of SC2 are immediately out of the way as a problem. I would even go as far as to say that the top few like TBLS would be able to have perfect macro by maybe 15 min into the SC2 midgame, with timings still down to seconds and miliseconds. Edit: And people need to stop saying that BW and SC2 are perfectly equal in the skill required and skill ceiling. BW failures can go to SC2 and make a name out there relatively easily. Think about how hilarious it would be if an SC2 pro player went: "Damn SC2 ain't cutting it for me, I'll try BW." He wouldn't make the B-team.
I have to agree with this no way any sc2 pro's can even make it to b team if they switch game because sc bw demands more skills than sc2 does .
QFT. MC is B team material at best, and he knows it. His public persona just indicates that he is an insecure person in RL.
On April 30 2011 13:46 dukethegold wrote: If you are a champion, you need to maintain self-esteem. Of course MC can't admit to others or himself that if Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork switched, the current SC2 lineup would be obliterated within three months.
It wouldn't, it took the current players a hilariously long time to learn and master all the timings as well as they have, and the game keeps shifting. The differences is, Brood War is basically as figured out as it's going to get, so it's just a question of who has the best mechanics and experience/training with it, SC2 is a long way from getting there, and thus is volatile. So... doesn't matter how good you are, nobody is completely dominating the scene. MC is the closest there is, and he got 2-0'd by Polt in the GSL and got knocked to the up and down matches.
Maybe 6 months, maybe not at all.
Metagame in BW is still changing lol, Just look at Neo.G_Soulkey + Zero ZvT. And Shines crazy build that he used on Reality in MSL. TBLS are super hardworking, and masters of RTS, they'd destroy everyone pretty fast, maybe a month.
The metagame cannot change unless people are doing new stuff like throwing shit at each other to distrct their opponents. The standard strategies are changing and the idea of metagaming your opponent by making assumptions is consistent.
On April 30 2011 16:28 Loodah wrote: The game is a bit volatile, and the metagame is changing drastically, but the top players always seem to stay ahead with respect to build orders and strategies.
The metagame cannot change. The "standard" build orders change, but the idea of gaining an advantage through assumption ("playing the metagame") is standard as always.
On April 30 2011 21:58 Aterons_toss wrote: I highly doubt Flash or JD would do well in SC2, they would be on top no doubt about that but not nearly as good as the top 10-15 players right now imo. First they all played terran in bw and agree or not terran held more then 50% of all tournaments win in bw + more then half of the most important titles ( golden mouse,Bonjwa.. etc ).In starcraft 2 all 3 races got the same 'felling" as BW ( more or less ) but are way better balanced and terran is argueably not the best race in all match-ups atm. Other then that SC2 focused way less on micro and having 500 + apm and much more on macro and having inovateive ways of handling things.
3. Innovative play? And what do you think of the recent metagame shifts, in ZvT (Queens), and ZvZ (Hive) ?
This is a shift in strategy, not a shift in metagame.
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea:
1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time.
2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs.
3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games.
4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year.
If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh.
Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene.
Pretty much....people are acting like its a stretch to predict that Flash would dominate in a month LOL. Look at Mondragon putting up an awesome showing in TSL which was basically his first tourney? He was amazing at BW for a foreigner but still maybe possessed like 1/50th of the skill Flash has. All the big names who transferred over seriously like Nada, Boxer, July pretty much instantly became top players and not even those guys were even close to Flash in skill at the time. But its a stretch to say Flash would dominate in a month? About as big a stretch as saying water is wet lol
On May 01 2011 01:48 tyCe wrote: Flash would add 6 more dimensions to the metagame.
While it's possible that you understand what metagame means and are implying that Flash is bringing girls to distract his opponent and poisoning his opponents' food to gain an advantage, it seems more likely that you don't know what metagame means. It's "playing the game outside the game", not "the standard strategy".
On May 01 2011 02:02 doihy wrote: How can you just assume if Flash switched over he would show Terrans how to actually play? Have you considered that Starcraft 2 has already reached its limit?
That's be pretty sad for SC2 if it has already reached its limit...
First off, what makes you think that he would stick with terran? Maybe he would like the zerg play style more. Secondly, the game has definitely not reached its limit... It has only been out for a year, BW is still changing and it's a 12 year old game.
Of course not, but BW and SC2 are entirely different games. People going into SC2 already had the accumlated knowledge of BW and SC2 undoubtedly has a lower skill ceiling.
Yeah, we haven't seen every strategy yet, but it won't take anywhere near 12 years before the game is figured out.
The metagame only needs to last until the next expansion pack.
It's impossible to patch the metagame, unless Blizzard adds some mechanic that can be abused outside the game, like requiring players to sing while playing. Then you could gain an advantage through the metagame by typing to distract their singing. Until then, the metagame will remain the same throughout patches.
Edit: I suppose I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. You could patch the strength and frequency of strategies and tactics used in playing the metagame. Let's assume that's what you meant.
The metagame I utilized to defeat both chill and kennigit 2vs1 is to make chill think Kennigit has air control by showing kennigit half my mutas. So that Chill will keep making nothing but colossus till he max out. then I crush Kennigit with everything i got and created and scenario where I have overwhelming mutas left over and Kenngit is out of army while Chill has nothing that shoots air.
the key on metagame is playing the player, not just the game.
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea:
1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time.
2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs.
3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games.
4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year.
If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh.
Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene.
Hate to break it to you, but nothing you said indicates to me that you have the power to predict the future. Flash would be the #1 player in SC2 after one month? What's your evidence for saying one month, rather than two or three (or more)? Have you looked at how much playing it took the "former BW progaming scrubs" to come to "dominate" SC2? By the way, it's funny you say they dominate, because I could have sworn one is in code A and the other got knocked out in the round of 32 (read: SC2 is volatile).
It's all well and good to think that Flash and other top BW players would become great in SC2, but you don't know how quickly they might be able to do it because none of them have transferred yet. Until then, you'll just be pretending to be able to predict the future.
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea:
1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time.
2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs.
3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games.
4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year.
If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh.
Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene.
Hate to break it to you, but nothing you said indicates to me that you have the power to predict the future. Flash would be the #1 player in SC2 after one month? What's your evidence for saying one month, rather than two or three (or more)? Have you looked at how much playing it took the "former BW progaming scrubs" to come to "dominate" SC2? By the way, it's funny you say they dominate, because I could have sworn one is in code A and the other got knocked out in the round of 32 (read: SC2 is volatile).
It's all well and good to think that Flash and other top BW players would become great in SC2, but you don't know how quickly they might be able to do it because none of them have transferred yet. Until then, you'll just be pretending to be able to predict the future.
Mine is an educated guess and yours is an educated guess. The difference is, I assume, I have more insight since anyone who has followed BW for some time will agree that Flash would easily become one of the best SC2 players in a short amount of time.
I also never claimed he'd be #1, so don't put words in my mouth, please.
You've mentioned two of the players who switched from BW. Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that roughly the top20 (or at least top10) SC2 players in Korea are former BW progamers or were you simply unaware of this? That's domination in my book.
Like I said, it took Flash one month to become a progamer from a rookie. Currently he's the best RTS player in the world. Thinking it'd take him more than one month to become a top SC2 player with the experience, skill and work ethic he has - in a very similar, albeit objectively easier game - is pretty naive in my opinion. Becoming a progamer in BW is harder than qualifying for Code S, but I guess you won't take my word for it. Whatever.
On May 02 2011 06:15 antelope591 wrote: Any S class player like Flash or JD would be at the top with 1 month of practice max....[He'd] compete with any current top player in 2 weeks max. Anyone thinking otherwise clearly doesnt follow the BW pro scene
Statements like these make me laugh. BW elitists shouldn't pretend to be able to predict the future.
You seriously have no idea how talented and good at RTS Flash is. To give you an idea:
1. NaDa played an even match against TLO after having played the game for 1-2 weeks, and he was a borderline A-team player at that time.
2. SC2 is currently dominated by former BW progaming scrubs.
3. The BW progaming scene is much more competitive than any other RTS game. Qualifying for BW leagues (MSL, OSL) is harder than winning major tournaments in other RTS games.
4. Flash is the best BW player of all time, both skill wise and talent wise. He got his progaming license after a month of training, FFS, on his first attempt. It took the second best player ten tries. Flash has dominated the said scene for years, winning several titles last year.
If you think Flash wouldn't be at the very top of SC2 after merely a couple of weeks of training you're deluding yourself, tbh.
Honestly, what are your reasons for thinking otherwise? Have you ever seen Flash play? Have you ever watched BW games? The games are similar enough that former BW progamers dominate the Korean scene.
Hate to break it to you, but nothing you said indicates to me that you have the power to predict the future. Flash would be the #1 player in SC2 after one month? What's your evidence for saying one month, rather than two or three (or more)? Have you looked at how much playing it took the "former BW progaming scrubs" to come to "dominate" SC2? By the way, it's funny you say they dominate, because I could have sworn one is in code A and the other got knocked out in the round of 32 (read: SC2 is volatile).
It's all well and good to think that Flash and other top BW players would become great in SC2, but you don't know how quickly they might be able to do it because none of them have transferred yet. Until then, you'll just be pretending to be able to predict the future.
Mine is an educated guess and yours is an educated guess. The difference is, I assume, I have more insight since anyone who has followed BW for some time will agree that Flash would easily become one of the best SC2 players in a short amount of time.
I also never claimed he'd be #1, so don't put words in my mouth, please.
You've mentioned two of the players who switched from BW. Are you deliberately ignoring the fact that roughly the top20 (or at least top10) SC2 players in Korea are former BW progamers or were you simply unaware of this? That's domination in my book.
Like I said, it took Flash one month to become a progamer from a rookie. Currently he's the best RTS player in the world. Thinking it'd take him more than one month to become a top SC2 player with the experience, skill and work ethic he has - in a very similar, albeit objectively easier game - is pretty naive in my opinion. Becoming a progamer in BW is harder than qualifying for Code S, but I guess you won't take my word for it. Whatever.
you have it spot on. i am currently writing an article on this, probably will post it in the next week or so.
On May 03 2011 17:14 maybenexttime wrote: Like I said, it took Flash one month to become a progamer from a rookie. Currently he's the best RTS player in the world. Thinking it'd take him more than one month to become a top SC2 player with the experience, skill and work ethic he has - in a very similar, albeit objectively easier game - is pretty naive in my opinion. Becoming a progamer in BW is harder than qualifying for Code S, but I guess you won't take my word for it. Whatever.
I don't know how else to say it, but you just don't know the timing. I appreciate that Flash is an extremely talented player, and that you are knowledgable about BW progaming. SC2 is not BW, though. The winner of one GSL season might get knocked out by baneling busts in the round of 32 in the next season.
Flash isn't human. The way he learns a skill is fundamentally better than other players. He would learn the game faster than anyone has been able to so far. He has played easily 10,000+ hours of broodwar and you still see him with a god-damn ruler measuring the placement of his keyboard before a match.
His ability to be methodical about his play is beyond anyone currently playing SC or SC2.
How is it possible to argue for experience for an 18-year old player, when transitioning to another game in comparison to say NaDa and JulyZerg? Sorry, I am a rookie in the Starcraft world, but this doesn't make much sense to me.
On May 05 2011 14:31 Dracolich70 wrote: How is it possible to argue for experience for an 18-year old player, when transitioning to another game in comparison to say NaDa and JulyZerg? Sorry, I am a rookie in the Starcraft world, but this doesn't make much sense to me.
Can someone help me understand this argument?
Flash is worlds ahead in skill compared to Nada and July. His raw talent in sc1 leads many to believe he will be an unstoppable force when he switches to sc2.
On May 05 2011 15:44 rysecake wrote:Flash is worlds ahead in skill compared to Nada and July. His raw talent in sc1 leads many to believe he will be an unstoppable force when he switches to sc2.
Thanks for your answer. I understand that many Flash fans feel this way, and going by what he has shown in sc1 speak very highly for him in terms of raw skill.
But my main issue was more from this statement "Thinking it'd take him more than one month to become a top SC2 player with the experience, skill and work ethic he has - in a very similar, albeit objectively easier game - is pretty naive in my opinion."
His experience is not greater than those two, nor his experience in handling adversity, which a transition would require, imo. Both NaDa and JulyZerg has shown this in both sc1 and sc2. The claim is that he should surpass those players in a mere month, simply because he is more skilled in BWs. The others have played SC 2 for some time now, and has practiced just as hard as Flash in BW.
It's not a perfect analogy, but to me it seems like saying that a super talented boxer would transition better to a higher division, than say one of more experience, but lesser current raw skill did. I might be a rookie in Starcraft universe, but I know boxing, and it isn't so. Some can do it, others can't - regardless of skill set. This being said, I believe that being a great BW player will help Flash a lot. Starcraft 2 is still a slightly different game, and suits some better than it did BW. Ie Nestea, while others more successful/skilled than he in BW hasn't coped as well as he has in SC 2.
After reading this thread it was pretty much exactly what I expected. Anyone that is remotely knowledgeable of Brood War and RTS in general will completely agree that Flash would destroy everyone in SC2 in a very small amount of time. The people who have never watched Brood War, and typically have under 100 posts are all saying he wouldn't. Does this surprise anyone, lol?
For example, Dracholich... Nestea is having success in SC2 and not Brood War because the people who mopped the floor with him in BW haven't changed over. It's not that Nestea magically rediscovered the RTS genre, he is up against lesser competition, so he is thriving... like the rest of the top 20 Sc2 players. They were mediocre at best (mostly terrible) players at Brood War, but that puts them leaps and bounds ahead of just about everyone in the RTS scene.
On May 05 2011 16:30 Pufftrees wrote: After reading this thread it was pretty much exactly what I expected. Anyone that is remotely knowledgeable of Brood War and RTS in general will completely agree that Flash would destroy everyone in SC2 in a very small amount of time. The people who have never watched Brood War, and typically have under 100 posts are all saying he wouldn't. Does this surprise anyone, lol?
Nor does your reply come as a surprise playing the "Those who agree with me are knowledgable and objective" card. Having seem 1000s of BW games, and posted 100+ doesn't make you enable you with the gift of foresight to the letter on how well or how fast Flash(or any other top BW player for that matter) would transition. There is a chance it even blinds you from objectivity, because you are a big follower of BW and Flash.
Tbh it doesn't sound very experienced to think that a player with a months practice would surpass others who has played for 7+ months nonstop, and has more experience in BW than Flash - like NaDa, just because he is more skilled in BW. Just following in Starcraft 2 scene shows how much better each become each passing month. Him being the currrently best BW player doesn't qualify him as being the best Starcraft 2 player in itself. Nor did I anywhere state that he wouldn't be able to at some point, nor did the other guy, doodsmack,
For example, Dracholich... Nestea is having success in SC2 and not Brood War because the people who mopped the floor with him in BW haven't changed over. It's not that Nestea magically rediscovered the RTS genre, he is up against lesser competition, so he is thriving... like the rest of the top 20 Sc2 players. They were mediocre at best (mostly terrible) players at Brood War, but that puts them leaps and bounds ahead of just about everyone in the RTS scene.
To my knowledge there are people who were more successful in BW than Nestea, who fares worse than he.
Furthermore, I find it a bit narrow minded argument saying that he just looks good because the best current BWs players hasn't made the change yet. There could be just as talented people as Flash starting in SC 2, like when he started BW. We do know that there currently are more accomblished BWs players who fares worse than he, nor surpasses him on that account. Nor is it all who has transitioned equally from Warcraft III to Starcraft 2, ie FoxMoon and FoxLyn, where the latter has been more succesful. But whatever fits your argument. I searched some objective answers, and found a well mannered one, as well as a fanbois condescending response. Thank you none-the-less for taking the time to reply.
On May 05 2011 15:44 rysecake wrote:Flash is worlds ahead in skill compared to Nada and July. His raw talent in sc1 leads many to believe he will be an unstoppable force when he switches to sc2.
This being said, I believe that being a great BW player will help Flash a lot. Starcraft 2 is still a slightly different game, and suits some better than it did BW. Ie Nestea, while others more successful/skilled than he in BW hasn't coped as well as he has in SC 2.
the thing is flash is not really known for mechanics or multitasking (which matter less or are easier in sc2) but in decision making and super sense like detecting cheese or expansions and responding properly. those things seem to matter more in sc2. so not only does he have the practice regimen, he has the talent for specifically sc2.
Not surprised by MCs words, Flash is a genius player and if he used the same dedication on SC2 there is no doubt that he would be very good if not the best.
SC2 is inherently easier in the core mechanics than SC1 so it would be harder to completely dominate SC2 in the way it was done in SC1 because of the smaller skillgap between the pros. SC2 focuses more on crisp decision making, whereas SC1 had huge demands to everything else before decision making became the major factor.
On May 05 2011 17:07 Dracolich70 wrote: Having seem 1000s of BW games, and posted 100+ doesn't make you enable you with the gift of foresight to the letter on how well or how fast Flash(or any other top BW player for that matter) would transition. There is a chance it even blinds you from objectivity, because you are a big follower of BW and Flash.
Hilarious. Reminds me of that critic who when asked what he thought of the book answered "well, I haven't read it because I wanted to stay as objective as possible" =)
This was mentioned before but I'll mention it again - One thing to take note of is Flash has good work ethic.
Flash wasn't good when he started out before he slowly became better and better. So if he worked hard to get good at SC1, it's likely the same with SC2.
Also while the two SCs are different, they're still very similar in the way they're played (that is the way you control units, make structures, etc). If you're good at micro + macro in SC1, those skills carry over to SC2.
Speaking of work ethic, it seems a lot of SC players have good work ethic. A good reason to hire former pro SC players - they're probably not likely to slack off (playing the game 10-15 hours a day can be really tedious)
On May 05 2011 20:10 Goldfish wrote: This was mentioned before but I'll mention it again - One thing to take note of is Flash has good work ethic.
Flash wasn't good when he started out before he slowly became better and better. So if he worked hard to get good at SC1, it's likely the same with SC2.
Also while the two SCs are different, they're still very similar in the way they're played (that is the way you control units, make structures, etc). If you're good at micro + macro in SC1, those skills carry over to SC2.
Speaking of work ethic, it seems a lot of SC players have good work ethic. A good reason to hire former pro SC players - they're probably not likely to slack off (playing the game 10-15 hours a day can be really tedious)
You call THIS better and better? He was top-notch from the start. He's a fucking beast.
On May 05 2011 18:03 corumjhaelen wrote:Hilarious. Reminds me of that critic who when asked what he thought of the book answered "well, I haven't read it because I wanted to stay as objective as possible" =)
Reading comprehension is not your strong suit, going by your analogy,
I know VERY little about BW, but from what I've heard about flash and jaedong I have to assume that if they switched to SC2 they would dominate. Obviously not right off the bat, but once they got some games under their belt they would probably crush the people up top, just like they did in BW. I don't think it takes a genius to figure that out.
If I could get in Diamond (before there was Masters) after being incredibly bad at SC1 (I was young and to afraid to 1v1), and only played 3v3 RT on WC3 seriously, I'm pretty certain Flash could get GM in 2 days of playing.
One of Flash's strength's in Broodwar was just out macroing his opponent.. and I'm just not so sure that same edge exists in Star 2. Nothing would make me happier than if it did.
Very surprising thing to read, feel like the translation was lost a little bit or something, otherwise MC is just mad since of course without a doubt Flash or JD or Bisu or any of those top guys would be sick at SC2, or probably any game for that matter. They got that good by the skill of learning and developing themselves in BW, I would think it would be the same regardless of what it was they were shooting for game wise.
On May 24 2011 17:52 RaLakedaimon wrote: Very surprising thing to read, feel like the translation was lost a little bit or something, otherwise MC is just mad since of course without a doubt Flash or JD or Bisu or any of those top guys would be sick at SC2, or probably any game for that matter. They got that good by the skill of learning and developing themselves in BW, I would think it would be the same regardless of what it was they were shooting for game wise.
...That's what MC said? He was asked a question and responded, what are you talking about?
Such a stupid and hypothetical discussion. Flash would probably do well in SC2 but if anything we've seen that skills in one game doesn't magically transfer over to the next. Tyler was apparently the shit in foreign BW but in Sc2 he's struggling to produce any results, Grubby and Moon would beat Naniwa and Kas with one hand in Wc3 but in Sc2 it's a different story.
Until Flash actually switches all you guys are just coming with a various degree of uneducated guesses.
On May 05 2011 20:10 Goldfish wrote: This was mentioned before but I'll mention it again - One thing to take note of is Flash has good work ethic.
Flash wasn't good when he started out before he slowly became better and better. So if he worked hard to get good at SC1, it's likely the same with SC2.
Also while the two SCs are different, they're still very similar in the way they're played (that is the way you control units, make structures, etc). If you're good at micro + macro in SC1, those skills carry over to SC2.
Speaking of work ethic, it seems a lot of SC players have good work ethic. A good reason to hire former pro SC players - they're probably not likely to slack off (playing the game 10-15 hours a day can be really tedious)
...At the age of 15 he left home to join a practice house and got his progaming license in ONE MONTH. He won his first six televised games, and an OSL less than a year later. I'd say he started out pretty well.
starcraft 2 is more about who has the better counter to the build than who has better micro, macro and strategy, apm and game sense that you see in bw. Flash and JD would have to have quite a few games under their belts before they understood that concept for the early/mid game. But late game no matter what version of sc they played I'm sure they'd do exceedingly well just because they have everything they need from bw.
On May 24 2011 20:28 Longshank wrote: Such a stupid and hypothetical discussion. Flash would probably do well in SC2 but if anything we've seen that skills in one game doesn't magically transfer over to the next. Tyler was apparently the shit in foreign BW but in Sc2 he's struggling to produce any results, Grubby and Moon would beat Naniwa and Kas with one hand in Wc3 but in Sc2 it's a different story.
Until Flash actually switches all you guys are just coming with a various degree of uneducated guesses.
Ignorance is bliss.
If you weren't aware there are many other variables in play as to why NonY/Tyler has been under performing.
There is a correlation between certain aspects of games whether you like it or not.
On May 27 2011 09:13 Mente wrote: starcraft 2 is more about who has the better counter to the build than who has better micro, macro and strategy, apm and game sense that you see in bw. Flash and JD would have to have quite a few games under their belts before they understood that concept for the early/mid game. But late game no matter what version of sc they played I'm sure they'd do exceedingly well just because they have everything they need from bw.
Actually that's why SC2 would be perfect for Flash. -_-
He has perfect expansion timing, perfect attack timing, perfect defense, perfect unit composition. His builds when he 3:0'd Jaedong were all two base timing attacks, where Jaedong seemed to just have no units and Flash would have the exact unit composition to counter whatever Jaedong had. It was like a hard counter composition on top of a hard counter strategy.
Flash would just send a big ball of units and lose almost nothing, but Jaedong would lose all his units and bases in one attack, it happened 3 times in a row. It seriously looked like Flash had god-mode & insta-gib hacks on.
On May 27 2011 09:13 Mente wrote: starcraft 2 is more about who has the better counter to the build than who has better micro, macro and strategy, apm and game sense that you see in bw. Flash and JD would have to have quite a few games under their belts before they understood that concept for the early/mid game. But late game no matter what version of sc they played I'm sure they'd do exceedingly well just because they have everything they need from bw.
Actually that's why SC2 would be perfect for Flash. -_-
His specialty is perfect expansion timing, perfect attack timing, perfect defense, perfect unit composition.
Flash would do well in SC2. BW and SC2 really aren't that much different. BUT, we need to see Flash actually play to say whether or not he will DOMINATE SC2.
On May 27 2011 09:41 Zeiryuu wrote: Flash would do well in SC2. BW and SC2 really aren't that much different. BUT, we need to see Flash actually play to say whether or not he will DOMINATE SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a night, the skin on his wrists were worn off as you could see in his photos, his team mates would force him to stop playing because his fingers would bleed from overuse, and even claimed he had achieved "enlightenment".
Compared to Nestea, he is on a completely different level.
On May 27 2011 09:41 Zeiryuu wrote: Flash would do well in SC2. BW and SC2 really aren't that much different. BUT, we need to see Flash actually play to say whether or not he will DOMINATE SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a night, the skin on his wrists were worn off as you could see in his photos, his team mates would force him to stop playing because his fingers would bleed from overuse, and even claimed he had achieved "enlightenment".
Compared to Nestea, he is on a completely different level.
Please tell me you're exaggerating. That sounds disgusting.
since we have to wait atleast a few years on this I don't think there is need for a discussion, just my opinion. Well you could all put together and pay him a nice salary so he would switch xD. If i would be mean i would probably say something like he would dominate if he would play toss ;P.
On May 27 2011 09:41 Zeiryuu wrote: Flash would do well in SC2. BW and SC2 really aren't that much different. BUT, we need to see Flash actually play to say whether or not he will DOMINATE SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a night, the skin on his wrists were worn off as you could see in his photos, his team mates would force him to stop playing because his fingers would bleed from overuse, and even claimed he had achieved "enlightenment".
Compared to Nestea, he is on a completely different level.
Please tell me you're exaggerating. That sounds disgusting.
On May 27 2011 09:50 FeyFey wrote: since we have to wait atleast a few years on this I don't think there is need for a discussion, just my opinion. Well you could all put together and pay him a nice salary so he would switch xD. If i would be mean i would probably say something like he would dominate if he would play toss ;P.
No one knows if he'll switch or not, because at the moment playing SC1 is more lucrative. There's no doubt in my mind the likes of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu will rise to the top very fast if they make the switch. And I really hope they do because they will raise substantially raise the level of SC2 in the long run, because in order to compete with them you'll need to practice as much as they do.
For those guys who want some evidence, refer to the numbers posted in the recent article that showed players stats in the proleague:
Flash, JD and Bisu were just that much better at SC1 than the current top players in the SC2 scene. They aren't the best only because of their outstanding mechanics, but because of game sense and timing, as well.
On May 27 2011 09:13 Mente wrote: starcraft 2 is more about who has the better counter to the build than who has better micro, macro and strategy, apm and game sense that you see in bw. Flash and JD would have to have quite a few games under their belts before they understood that concept for the early/mid game. But late game no matter what version of sc they played I'm sure they'd do exceedingly well just because they have everything they need from bw.
Actually that's why SC2 would be perfect for Flash. -_-
He has perfect expansion timing, perfect attack timing, perfect defense, perfect unit composition. His builds when he 3:0'd Jaedong were all two base timing attacks, where Jaedong seemed to just have no units and Flash would have the exact unit composition to counter whatever Jaedong had. It was like a hard counter composition on top of a hard counter strategy.
Flash would just send a big ball of units and lose almost nothing, but Jaedong would lose all his units and bases in one attack, it happened 3 times in a row. It seriously looked like Flash had god-mode & insta-gib hacks on.
Sounds a lot like SC2 right?
Yes I do agree: having units is a hard counter to not having units but that's applicable to all games, not just starcraft....
On May 27 2011 09:13 Mente wrote: starcraft 2 is more about who has the better counter to the build than who has better micro, macro and strategy, apm and game sense that you see in bw. Flash and JD would have to have quite a few games under their belts before they understood that concept for the early/mid game. But late game no matter what version of sc they played I'm sure they'd do exceedingly well just because they have everything they need from bw.
Actually that's why SC2 would be perfect for Flash. -_-
He has perfect expansion timing, perfect attack timing, perfect defense, perfect unit composition. His builds when he 3:0'd Jaedong were all two base timing attacks, where Jaedong seemed to just have no units and Flash would have the exact unit composition to counter whatever Jaedong had. It was like a hard counter composition on top of a hard counter strategy.
Flash would just send a big ball of units and lose almost nothing, but Jaedong would lose all his units and bases in one attack, it happened 3 times in a row. It seriously looked like Flash had god-mode & insta-gib hacks on.
Sounds a lot like SC2 right?
Yes I do agree: having units is a hard counter to not having units but that's applicable to all games, not just starcraft....
What series are you even talking about anyway?
Hana Daetoo MSL Grand Final where Flash went 14CC every game and won the first 3 games of a Bo5.
Every single game the game was decided in a single 2 base push, which is what happens in the majority of SC2 games, and which is why so many people don't like Flash . This is obviously much more powerful in SC2, but the irony is that he can do this at the top level in BW.
This one Flash did a marine + medic + valkyrie against muta ling. Valkyrie is a hard counter to muta, and critical mass of bio would just melt the lings and Flash would simply not lose any units (except maybe 2 valkyrie to scourge).
On May 27 2011 09:13 Mente wrote: starcraft 2 is more about who has the better counter to the build than who has better micro, macro and strategy, apm and game sense that you see in bw. Flash and JD would have to have quite a few games under their belts before they understood that concept for the early/mid game. But late game no matter what version of sc they played I'm sure they'd do exceedingly well just because they have everything they need from bw.
I don't think you realize how good JD/Flash actually are. Just for reference...MC/Nestea were shit/unheard of in BW, July/Boxer/Nada were way past their expiration dates before SC2 was even released, and most of these top level SC2 players who came from BW were B-teamers (i.e. probably barely made any money) from BW. There are a couple of War3 players in the Korean scene I believe but the majority of players are from BW.
A couple of people mentioned Nony or other players like Grubby/Moon who aren't doing well. For reference, considering Nony is now married and all that, I know for SURE he isn't playing as much as he did in his BW days. Grubby started SC2 what....4-5 months ago? 7 max? I know he started a bit late. Moon I have no idea about tbh.
Back to the point, Flash/JD literally would stomp these players on a regular basis in BW...considering how MC/Nestea's skills have transferred I would say Flash/JD's skills would transfer even better. Their sense of RTS is so high it's honestly incomprehensible...
On May 27 2011 09:41 Zeiryuu wrote: Flash would do well in SC2. BW and SC2 really aren't that much different. BUT, we need to see Flash actually play to say whether or not he will DOMINATE SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a night, the skin on his wrists were worn off as you could see in his photos, his team mates would force him to stop playing because his fingers would bleed from overuse, and even claimed he had achieved "enlightenment".
Compared to Nestea, he is on a completely different level.
On May 27 2011 09:13 Mente wrote: starcraft 2 is more about who has the better counter to the build than who has better micro, macro and strategy, apm and game sense that you see in bw. Flash and JD would have to have quite a few games under their belts before they understood that concept for the early/mid game. But late game no matter what version of sc they played I'm sure they'd do exceedingly well just because they have everything they need from bw.
Actually that's why SC2 would be perfect for Flash. -_-
He has perfect expansion timing, perfect attack timing, perfect defense, perfect unit composition. His builds when he 3:0'd Jaedong were all two base timing attacks, where Jaedong seemed to just have no units and Flash would have the exact unit composition to counter whatever Jaedong had. It was like a hard counter composition on top of a hard counter strategy.
Flash would just send a big ball of units and lose almost nothing, but Jaedong would lose all his units and bases in one attack, it happened 3 times in a row. It seriously looked like Flash had god-mode & insta-gib hacks on.
Sounds a lot like SC2 right?
Yes I do agree: having units is a hard counter to not having units but that's applicable to all games, not just starcraft....
What series are you even talking about anyway?
Hana Daetoo MSL Grand Final where Flash went 14CC every game and won the first 3 games of a Bo5.
Every single game the game was decided in a single 2 base push, which is what happens in the majority of SC2 games, and which is why so many people don't like Flash . This is obviously much more powerful in SC2, but the irony is that he can do this at the top level in BW.
This one Flash did a marine + medic + valkyrie against muta ling. Valkyrie is a hard counter to muta, and critical mass of bio would just melt the lings and Flash would simply not lose any units (except maybe 2 valkyrie to scourge).
On May 27 2011 09:41 Zeiryuu wrote: Flash would do well in SC2. BW and SC2 really aren't that much different. BUT, we need to see Flash actually play to say whether or not he will DOMINATE SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a night, the skin on his wrists were worn off as you could see in his photos, his team mates would force him to stop playing because his fingers would bleed from overuse, and even claimed he had achieved "enlightenment".
Compared to Nestea, he is on a completely different level.
Please tell me you're exaggerating. That sounds disgusting.
disgusting? it sounds like perfect passion
In the west, it would sound like an extreme addiction and possibly a mental disorder
On May 27 2011 09:41 Zeiryuu wrote: Flash would do well in SC2. BW and SC2 really aren't that much different. BUT, we need to see Flash actually play to say whether or not he will DOMINATE SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a night, the skin on his wrists were worn off as you could see in his photos, his team mates would force him to stop playing because his fingers would bleed from overuse, and even claimed he had achieved "enlightenment".
Compared to Nestea, he is on a completely different level.
Where do you have this from? It contradicts everything I've heard. I'm not sure about his wrist/skin problems, but they've certainly not necessarily come from playing.
Doubt Flash will ever switch to SC2. He makes 200k-300k usd a year playing BW, and at the same time he is considered one of the all time greats within RTS. He also has an uncurable problem with his wrist. I think he'll most likely ending up on the school bench.
On May 27 2011 09:41 Zeiryuu wrote: Flash would do well in SC2. BW and SC2 really aren't that much different. BUT, we need to see Flash actually play to say whether or not he will DOMINATE SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a night, the skin on his wrists were worn off as you could see in his photos, his team mates would force him to stop playing because his fingers would bleed from overuse, and even claimed he had achieved "enlightenment".
Compared to Nestea, he is on a completely different level.
Where do you have this from? It contradicts everything I've heard. I'm not sure about his wrist/skin problems, but they've certainly not necessarily come from playing.
It's chronic of course, my own mother has the very same thing. It's fine, but very latent if you don't use your wrist, but instead of building up it's strength and durability from use, you're just accelerating it's deterioation.
On June 19 2011 23:47 Demand2k wrote: Doubt Flash will ever switch to SC2. He makes 200k-300k usd a year playing BW, and at the same time he is considered one of the all time greats within RTS. He also has an uncurable problem with his wrist. I think he'll most likely ending up on the school bench.
If he switched to SC2, he could stay teamless and make 600k usd+ off GSL alone.
On June 19 2011 23:47 Demand2k wrote: Doubt Flash will ever switch to SC2. He makes 200k-300k usd a year playing BW, and at the same time he is considered one of the all time greats within RTS. He also has an uncurable problem with his wrist. I think he'll most likely ending up on the school bench.
If he switched to SC2, he could stay teamless and make 600k usd+ off GSL alone.
Or he won't be as good as everyone thinks and be on the level of say Nada eventually? Yes he's a good player but god they're two different games and he's a year behind. If he does switch he won't be "amazing" in a week as some of you assume.
On May 27 2011 09:13 Mente wrote: starcraft 2 is more about who has the better counter to the build than who has better micro, macro and strategy, apm and game sense that you see in bw. Flash and JD would have to have quite a few games under their belts before they understood that concept for the early/mid game. But late game no matter what version of sc they played I'm sure they'd do exceedingly well just because they have everything they need from bw.
I don't think you realize how good JD/Flash actually are. Just for reference...MC/Nestea were shit/unheard of in BW, July/Boxer/Nada were way past their expiration dates before SC2 was even released, and most of these top level SC2 players who came from BW were B-teamers (i.e. probably barely made any money) from BW. There are a couple of War3 players in the Korean scene I believe but the majority of players are from BW.
A couple of people mentioned Nony or other players like Grubby/Moon who aren't doing well. For reference, considering Nony is now married and all that, I know for SURE he isn't playing as much as he did in his BW days. Grubby started SC2 what....4-5 months ago? 7 max? I know he started a bit late. Moon I have no idea about tbh.
Back to the point, Flash/JD literally would stomp these players on a regular basis in BW...considering how MC/Nestea's skills have transferred I would say Flash/JD's skills would transfer even better. Their sense of RTS is so high it's honestly incomprehensible...
Flash and Jaedong aren't "good". They are good, excellent, SC:BW players. Not good players in the absolute, it makes no sense whatsoever.
MC Nestea's skills might have transferred well, but you've not heard about all the other B team players and the old BW players who failed miserably to qualify for GSL code A, precisely because they failed to qualify and show their faces on TV. Being good at BW only increases the likelyhood of being good at SC2, it doesn't make it so. Period.
I think people are getting too far into quantifying Flash's skill and ignoring an unknown that could prevent him from retaining his BW dominance. If Flash started fresh in SC2 today, I have little doubt he would become the best with his work ethic, mechanical skills and analytical thinking. There's no doubt that BW and SC2 share these skill sets.
But he's not starting fresh and it's impossible for the human brain to do that. In this regard comparisons to Nony/IdrA/MC/Nestea are irrelevant because none of these players hold a candle to Flash when it comes to BW knowledge or intuition. There's a certain amount of unlearning and tendency removal he'll need to do and how well he handles that is completely unknown.
I don't know how pertinent the examples of Grubby and Moon are but it's certainly interesting that they've been surpassed by far worse WC3 players. Perhaps their mastery at WC3 holds them back in SC2. Maybe he'll still be fine, I'm just saying don't treat the brain like a workstation.
On April 30 2011 10:50 Thorin wrote: oGs MC, the world's best StarCraft 2 player.....
I was curious whether you'd seen a Korea player by the name of NesTea play Starcraft 2. If not I highly recommend it lol
Not suprised a zerg prefering NesTea but looking at GSL wins AND total tournament wins i'm guessing MC has a way better record.
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that is because NesTea doesn't participate in foreign tournaments. so that can't be used against him.
a good argument can be made that NesTea is the best player in the world, if not on equal footing with MC, since MC has been performing poorly in the past 2 GSL's.
On June 19 2011 23:47 Demand2k wrote: Doubt Flash will ever switch to SC2. He makes 200k-300k usd a year playing BW, and at the same time he is considered one of the all time greats within RTS. He also has an uncurable problem with his wrist. I think he'll most likely ending up on the school bench.
If he switched to SC2, he could stay teamless and make 600k usd+ off GSL alone.
Or he won't be as good as everyone thinks and be on the level of say Nada eventually? Yes he's a good player but god they're two different games and he's a year behind. If he does switch he won't be "amazing" in a week as some of you assume.
The year behind doesn't matter as much as you think. He can skip all the figuring out the metagame part people had to struggle with and just instantly go with what works and learn the kinks and mechanics within a month or two.
I think we could agree that Flash or Jaedong would require a few months to acclimate to Sc2 but once they did they would be at the top of the GSL. Dominating it is too speculative but I strongly think that it is past debate that they would define gosu.
On April 30 2011 10:50 Thorin wrote: oGs MC, the world's best StarCraft 2 player.....
I was curious whether you'd seen a Korea player by the name of NesTea play Starcraft 2. If not I highly recommend it lol
Not suprised a zerg prefering NesTea but looking at GSL wins AND total tournament wins i'm guessing MC has a way better record.
that is because NesTea doesn't participate in foreign tournaments. so that can't be used against him.
a good argument can be made that NesTea is the best player in the world, if not on equal footing with MC, since MC has been performing poorly in the past 2 GSL's.
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One has more tournament wins. If the other doesn't want to travel to the biggest tournaments it's his loss.
He does have the dedication to do very well as he even trained for one month just to get a pro gamer's license in order to become a pro gamer ( he was the best at his school, too, and just decided to become a pro gamer )
One has more tournament wins. If the other doesn't want to travel to the biggest tournaments it's his loss.
i completely agree but it's not the point i'm arguing.
what i'm saying is MC winning tournaments NesTea is not part of, cannot be used to argue MC is a better player than NesTea.
to be honest, i don't think it can be argued who the best player in the world is, since at this moment in time, it can't be quantified because there is no one dominant person.
having said that, the way NesTea is playing Zerg, it is not a ludicrous opinion to have for one to think NesTea is the best player in the world.
BeSt would be the BeSt player to switch :D (sorry I had to). But honestly, one can't look at the control, multitasking, game sense, and dedication that current "S" or even "A" class BW pros have and not think that they would at least do well in SC2, especially when compared to their current SC2 counterparts...
I think it would be best for Flash to wait out until HOTS comes out. By then all players will be forced into a new metagame, making it easier for Flash to transition.
One has more tournament wins. If the other doesn't want to travel to the biggest tournaments it's his loss.
i completely agree but it's not the point i'm arguing.
what i'm saying is MC winning tournaments NesTea is not part of, cannot be used to argue MC is a better player than NesTea.
to be honest, i don't think it can be argued who the best player in the world is, since at this moment in time, it can't be quantified because there is no one dominant person.
having said that, the way NesTea is playing Zerg, it is not a ludicrous opinion to have for one to think NesTea is the best player in the world.
but again, they're all opinions.
MC did win a tournament nestea was apart of , quite recently in fact. Stars war tourney(had many top koreans), and he got much further in TSL. People always say "nestea hasn't done any foreign events" and its bullshit, yes they were online but other korean players have done well in them, its not an excuse.
One has more tournament wins. If the other doesn't want to travel to the biggest tournaments it's his loss.
i completely agree but it's not the point i'm arguing.
what i'm saying is MC winning tournaments NesTea is not part of, cannot be used to argue MC is a better player than NesTea.
to be honest, i don't think it can be argued who the best player in the world is, since at this moment in time, it can't be quantified because there is no one dominant person.
having said that, the way NesTea is playing Zerg, it is not a ludicrous opinion to have for one to think NesTea is the best player in the world.
but again, they're all opinions.
MC did win a tournament nestea was apart of , quite recently in fact. Stars war tourney(had many top koreans), and he got much further in TSL. People always say "nestea hasn't done any foreign events" and its bullshit, yes they were online but other korean players have done well in them, its not an excuse.
I'm pretty sure everyone now accepts cross server lag as an excuse.
But yeah, just owning more white dudes doesn't make MC better than Nestea.
One has more tournament wins. If the other doesn't want to travel to the biggest tournaments it's his loss.
i completely agree but it's not the point i'm arguing.
what i'm saying is MC winning tournaments NesTea is not part of, cannot be used to argue MC is a better player than NesTea.
to be honest, i don't think it can be argued who the best player in the world is, since at this moment in time, it can't be quantified because there is no one dominant person.
having said that, the way NesTea is playing Zerg, it is not a ludicrous opinion to have for one to think NesTea is the best player in the world.
but again, they're all opinions.
MC did win a tournament nestea was apart of , quite recently in fact. Stars war tourney(had many top koreans), and he got much further in TSL. People always say "nestea hasn't done any foreign events" and its bullshit, yes they were online but other korean players have done well in them, its not an excuse.
I'm pretty sure everyone now accepts cross server lag as an excuse.
But yeah, just owning more white dudes doesn't make MC better than Nestea.
If its such a hindrance why did MC win the tournament...? The only thing you can really go by is tournament results and MC has far more, and Nestea wasn't absent from all of them.
One has more tournament wins. If the other doesn't want to travel to the biggest tournaments it's his loss.
i completely agree but it's not the point i'm arguing.
what i'm saying is MC winning tournaments NesTea is not part of, cannot be used to argue MC is a better player than NesTea.
to be honest, i don't think it can be argued who the best player in the world is, since at this moment in time, it can't be quantified because there is no one dominant person.
having said that, the way NesTea is playing Zerg, it is not a ludicrous opinion to have for one to think NesTea is the best player in the world.
but again, they're all opinions.
MC did win a tournament nestea was apart of , quite recently in fact. Stars war tourney(had many top koreans), and he got much further in TSL. People always say "nestea hasn't done any foreign events" and its bullshit, yes they were online but other korean players have done well in them, its not an excuse.
I'm pretty sure everyone now accepts cross server lag as an excuse.
But yeah, just owning more white dudes doesn't make MC better than Nestea.
If its such a hindrance why did MC win the tournament...? The only thing you can really go by is tournament results and MC has far more, and Nestea wasn't absent from all of them.
MC being able to better adjust to cross-server lag does not mean that he's better at SC2 than NesTea, as cross-server lag is not the norm (and I vaguely recall hearing from somewhere that oGs had the least lag of any of the major pro teams because of their ISP? can someone either confirm or deny?).
That being said, MC was the first 2-time champion and has been in the pantheon of "top 3 people playing this game right now, period" since at least GSL 3. I can't recall him being knocked out by any scrubs since he won his first GSL (NesTea, Polt, Bomber) so to say his recent efforts aren't amazing is fair, but keep in mind the quality of the competition that he's losing to. He's arguably the best, but until he wins another GSL, it's just arguable.
Of course, Flash or Jaedong wouldn't dominate right away, but their experience, understanding of the game, awareness,etc... I think would help them greatly get to the top in no time. Just look at the best sc2 players in the world. MC, Nestea, MVP, MKP, Bomber, MMA, Losira, Puma, JulyZerg, Nada, SangHo, aLive, Genius etc............................., and prob just about more than 80% of the gsl players prob came from a BW pro team.
It's kind of a shame that MC and Nestea haven't really played each other. The current record is 2-2 from what I can gather (Nestea beat MC in GSL 2,, MC 2-0ed Nestea on Gissado KTH (http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=178835). But no real recent results.
MC states that PvZ is his best matchup, Nestea's ZvP is pretty frightening. Bah, I hope the MC v Nestea this GSL comes true.
Apparently a rough $200 000 a year via salary/sponsorships, then maybe two solo-league wins brings it up to $300 000. You, Mr. ElusoryX, are wrong as fuuuuuuck. Last I checked, he can win at least six GSL tournies a year. That right there is equivalent to the entire package in BW.
On July 08 2011 14:56 Cedstick wrote: Apparently a rough $200 000 a year via salary/sponsorships, then maybe two solo-league wins brings it up to $300 000. You, Mr. ElusoryX, are wrong as fuuuuuuck. Last I checked, he can win at least six GSL tournies a year. That right there is equivalent to the entire package in BW.
Chances are he wont win enough GSL's especially with this wrist condition. He'd be better off playing broodwar with the salary he has, it's much more safer for him.
As has previously been said, Flash could very likely pick up Sc2 for as little as a week and be taking games off of any current tip top pros, that fact is very true.
Sad part is it probably just isn't going to happen for a long time =(
It is very possible he would not win a single GSL if he switched to SC2. The threshold for having great mechanics is much lower in SC2 so there will be many more players that would be even with him with regards to mechanics. Decision making is also different in SC2 so his decision making skill in BW may not carry over.
If he switch a year from now he will be two years behind the current Pros, it is quite possible he will end up in code A and never go further.
I mean look at Boxer. He was once the best BW player in the world but right now he is only a code B SC2 player. Flash is of course much better then Boxer ever was but I doubt he will dominate SC2.
On July 08 2011 16:50 MockHamill wrote: It is very possible he would not win a single GSL if he switched to SC2. The threshold for having great mechanics is much lower in SC2 so there will be many more players that would be even with him with regards to mechanics. Decision making is also different in SC2 so his decision making skill in BW may not carry over.
If he switch a year from now he will be two years behind the current Pros, it is quite possible he will end up in code A and never go further.
I mean look at Boxer. He was once the best BW player in the world but right now he is only a code B SC2 player. Flash is of course much better then Boxer ever was but I doubt he will dominate SC2.
That's because BoxeR wasn't even A-team material at the time he switched to sc2.
On July 08 2011 14:56 Cedstick wrote: Apparently a rough $200 000 a year via salary/sponsorships, then maybe two solo-league wins brings it up to $300 000. You, Mr. ElusoryX, are wrong as fuuuuuuck. Last I checked, he can win at least six GSL tournies a year. That right there is equivalent to the entire package in BW.
It's not guaranteed that he'll win all the tournies. Flash has slumps too.
Regardless of how much the payout is for GSL, Flash has a stable career and a solid base with BW, and given that his wrist condition is not that good right now, it'll be a very big mistake to switch to SC2 where nothing is certain.
On July 08 2011 16:50 MockHamill wrote: I mean look at Boxer. He was once the best BW player in the world but right now he is only a code B SC2 player. Flash is of course much better then Boxer ever was but I doubt he will dominate SC2.
... but he wasn't when he switched, was he?
I love Boxer, but no one can say he was a top player when he switched.
If Jaedong or Flash switched, they would be so sick good pretty much from the start.
However, I also think that players like fantasy, hydra, calm, sea, stork, etc would own it up. Maybe one of them will switch ... that would be cool.
Saviour is banned for life, and that makes me sad even if it's deserved.
On July 08 2011 16:50 MockHamill wrote: It is very possible he would not win a single GSL if he switched to SC2. The threshold for having great mechanics is much lower in SC2 so there will be many more players that would be even with him with regards to mechanics. Decision making is also different in SC2 so his decision making skill in BW may not carry over.
If he switch a year from now he will be two years behind the current Pros, it is quite possible he will end up in code A and never go further.
I mean look at Boxer. He was once the best BW player in the world but right now he is only a code B SC2 player. Flash is of course much better then Boxer ever was but I doubt he will dominate SC2.
Boxer coaches and manages a team so he doesn't have as much time to practice.
I think Flash won't dominate SC2 but he would do well if he decides to put the time into it, just like NaDa right now who is consistently getting at least top 8 in GSL despite being in school.
On July 08 2011 16:50 MockHamill wrote: It is very possible he would not win a single GSL if he switched to SC2. The threshold for having great mechanics is much lower in SC2 so there will be many more players that would be even with him with regards to mechanics. Decision making is also different in SC2 so his decision making skill in BW may not carry over.
If he switch a year from now he will be two years behind the current Pros, it is quite possible he will end up in code A and never go further.
I mean look at Boxer. He was once the best BW player in the world but right now he is only a code B SC2 player. Flash is of course much better then Boxer ever was but I doubt he will dominate SC2.
Nah Flash would easily be among the best within months of shifting
There is a strong correlation between the top SC2 players and success in BW. What confuses things however is that there are a lot of up and coming players in SC2, and a lot of the SC2 BW pros are young, so they might have been doing well in BW now if they stayed too, its hard to know.
On July 08 2011 14:56 Cedstick wrote: Apparently a rough $200 000 a year via salary/sponsorships, then maybe two solo-league wins brings it up to $300 000. You, Mr. ElusoryX, are wrong as fuuuuuuck. Last I checked, he can win at least six GSL tournies a year. That right there is equivalent to the entire package in BW.
It's not guaranteed that he'll win all the tournies. Flash has slumps too.
Regardless of how much the payout is for GSL, Flash has a stable career and a solid base with BW, and given that his wrist condition is not that good right now, it'll be a very big mistake to switch to SC2 where nothing is certain.
Oh, I wasn't saying this was a reason he should make the switch, I was just saying his remark was wrong.
ignorant bw elitists/fanboys your services are not needed in here. get their dongraegus out of your mouth and go back to bw forums. btw watching the vod in the previous page between Bisu and MC didn't make me thing those two players had huge differences regarding skill or capabilities. I didn't see Bisu ROFLSTOMPING MC, that's apparently something only you see - i saw him win convincingly.
On July 08 2011 18:01 shaman6ix wrote: ignorant bw elitists/fanboys your services are not needed in here. get their dongraegus out of your mouth and go back to bw forums. btw watching the vod in the previous page between Bisu and MC didn't make me thing those two players had huge differences regarding skill or capabilities. I didn't see Bisu ROFLSTOMPING MC, that's apparently something only you see - i saw him win convincingly.
You think there isn't a huge skill difference between BiSu and MC in bw... talk about ignorance...
On July 08 2011 16:40 Xavv wrote: As has previously been said, Flash could very likely pick up Sc2 for as little as a week and be taking games off of any current tip top pros, that fact is very true.
Sad part is it probably just isn't going to happen for a long time =(
This sounds like such fanboyism. BW pros are gods among men but people on these forums hype it up too much sometimes.
Aren't current contracts in BW expiring around August? That plus the possibility of KESPA/Blizzard partnerships may mean a major influx form Brood War players to SC2
Forget the speculation, lets actually see it happen
(Yes, I know that the KESPA meetings are rumoured, but it doesn't change the fact that there is a possibility there)
Flash will rape. People who says otherwise have not watch or followed the bw scene for more than 2-3 years.
Actually, if all the bw players switch right now, the top players currently in sc2 would probably look like top 10-20s. Do not underestimate how good some of these bw pros are.
Flash & co. will probably dominate with their perfect mechanics, but SC2 at the moment has a skill ceiling lower than BW, so i think it will be possible for some pro (like MC or DRG) to take 1 of 2 games in a BoX from them (almost an impossible task in BW)
I'm sure he has the potential to be great SC2 player but I'm with Idra on this, the idea that it's envitable that after a couple of months he'll have left all competition in the dust is ludicrious.
- Flash has never played in an enviornment where the game shifts litterally every couple of months from patchs to expansions. BW was about him perfecting it, SC2 won't be at the stage for a long, long time.
- BW isn't SC2. Some skills transfer. Some don't. Some are completely new. See our current top dog, Nestea (aka zergbong) for further details.
An analogy. Michael Schumacher dominated formula 1 racing for a decade, many believed (and still believe) that he was greastest driver of all time. But his recent 2 year comeback hasn't resulted in a single podium position. The games changed, time passes by and hes gotten older. He's still "great" but it's unlikely he'll ever be able to achieve his total domination he once had.
I think that people just have to realise that the BEST players of every race have also been the highest up in BW of all the players when they left BW,
MC MVP (took a game off flash in tvt.. just no comment at how unreal good u must be to do that.) NESTEA
There is little doubt julyzerg, boxer, nada, Were better players at that "time" in there BW carrier, but that was a long time ago for all of them (In starcraft bw terms 6 months is half a lifetime)
And i recall idra saying "if stork swapped over and played protoss he would litrally never lose a game"
Obviously he is saying protoss is strong but he is also saying that argueably (Although the fact he has won like 10 silverplace medals says so.) the most consistent best protoss swapped to protoss in sc2 he would never lose,
Anyone who watches FLASH or JAEDONG or STORK or BISU in fpvod will know if they ever swap over hell is going to break loose
Just think there were many many top players who started years and years later ..and now are untouchable.
They didn't call jaedong the dragonslayer for nothing.
Edit :
For people who didnt know.. They called him the dragonslayer because when he was "Coming" up in his carrier he just beat the best legends one after another, slaying the dragons of starcraft 1 by 1.
I have yet to see an sc2 Terran progamer never queue units, not have idle scvs, scout every hidden proxy, never get supply blocked, scan random units or drops in the middle of the map for no reason...
On macro alone, Flash is superior already to most progamers. Watch an fpvod of sc1 progamers macroing and stare in awe. They macro without the hotkeys after their army requires around 5 hotkeys. They still don't queue. Flash builds one marine at a time on 3 base as Terran, and has to click on every barracks to macro. Current sc2 progamers are still very much 4aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
It would be so epic if Flash, Jaedong and Bisu switched to StarCraft 2. It feels like this momentous occasion thats being built up to more and more and when it finally happens the world will explode.
But I have doubts about certain things:
A) Whether Flash will keep his race or not. Jaedong and Bisu will stick to their races I think, and I hope Flash does too, but does Terran in SC 2 suit his turtling Brood War playing style as well?
B) Whether they'll dominate as completely as people think. Having the best mechanics is a huge advantage but not enough in SC2, so many of the top BW players seem to lose games because of the differences when it comes to scouting in SC2. They're all used to playing in a reactive away because of BW and I think I've heard some of them comment on how much harder it is to be prepared in SC 2
On July 08 2011 21:38 Fruscainte wrote: I hate to be "that guy", but anyone with Flash's inherent gaming skill that would practice 10-12 hours a day consistently could succeed at this game.
He could succeed at every game and many sports (if he has sufficent genes)
I'm so sick of people just assuming that Flash would crush everyone in his path as soon as he switched to SC2. Of course he's amazing in SC1. He's practically broken the game. The dude is seriously good there's no question. But as we all know SC2 is a different game. There are plenty of SC1 pros that have moved over to SC2 and not completely dominated, at least not at first.
Flash will do doubt do well if he ever does move over to SC2 (and I truly do hope this happens) but to assume that he will just auto win everything when he does is a bit silly. Either way though this discussion is dumb anyways because it's hypothetical until he actually makes the switch. I'm holding my breath waiting for Jaedong to switch over! Him and JulyZerg are literally my favorite Zerg players of all time.
On July 08 2011 20:25 Asymmetric wrote: Don't buy the reasoning.
I'm sure he has the potential to be great SC2 player but I'm with Idra on this, the idea that it's envitable that after a couple of months he'll have left all competition in the dust is ludicrious.
- Flash has never played in an enviornment where the game shifts litterally every couple of months from patchs to expansions. BW was about him perfecting it, SC2 won't be at the stage for a long, long time.
- BW isn't SC2. Some skills transfer. Some don't. Some are completely new. See our current top dog, Nestea (aka zergbong) for further details.
An analogy. Michael Schumacher dominated formula 1 racing for a decade, many believed (and still believe) that he was greastest driver of all time. But his recent 2 year comeback hasn't resulted in a single podium position. The games changed, time passes by and hes gotten older. He's still "great" but it's unlikely he'll ever be able to achieve his total domination he once had.
A formula 1 driver who retired once he was no longer able to win anything and then comes back 4 years later isn't the same thing at all. If anything, you could compare him to someone like Boxer.
Would he be good? Yes, undoubtedly. Code S once he got the mechanics down for sure.
Would he wreck the game in half? ...Probably not. Not right away, anyway.
My reasoning is this: SC2, being a new(ish) game, has a metagame that is evolving stupidly fast. New openings, compositions, and tactics (special or otherwise) show up almost every week. Timings aren't figured out yet completely, as timing pushes keep getting invented. It's still young.
Flash has 13 years of SC1 meta gaming behind him, and he is the best at understanding it and abusing it. BW isn't figured out yet, but it's way closer to that point than SC2 is. His mechanics and control will get him far, his work ethic farther, but it's not like he's some psychic that will come in and be years advanced in the meta game. He'd crush people based on his gameplay, but it'll take much longer before he understands the ebb and flow of people's mindsets and strategies.
I'm sure he'd have new and interesting strategies, but the idea that he'd just sit down in front of SC2 and figure it completely out when other great players are still coming up with new things is laughable.
Flash would do good. If he practiced for 1 month we would dominate. But going to the original OP. If you guys watch the 3rd part of this interview, he states why he acts the way he does(being cocky etc)
On July 08 2011 20:44 UkGracken wrote: I think that people just have to realise that the BEST players of every race have also been the highest up in BW of all the players when they left BW,
MC MVP (took a game off flash in tvt.. just no comment at how unreal good u must be to do that.) NESTEA
There is little doubt julyzerg, boxer, nada, Were better players at that "time" in there BW carrier, but that was a long time ago for all of them (In starcraft bw terms 6 months is half a lifetime)
And i recall idra saying "if stork swapped over and played protoss he would litrally never lose a game"
Obviously he is saying protoss is strong but he is also saying that argueably (Although the fact he has won like 10 silverplace medals says so.) the most consistent best protoss swapped to protoss in sc2 he would never lose,
Anyone who watches FLASH or JAEDONG or STORK or BISU in fpvod will know if they ever swap over hell is going to break loose
Just think there were many many top players who started years and years later ..and now are untouchable.
They didn't call jaedong the dragonslayer for nothing.
Edit :
For people who didnt know.. They called him the dragonslayer because when he was "Coming" up in his carrier he just beat the best legends one after another, slaying the dragons of starcraft 1 by 1.
Quit talking out of your ass bro. MC wasn't that good at Brood War, Nestea mostly played in 2v2 tourneys, and MVP was kind of decent. No way in hell they were "the highest up in BW".
On May 27 2011 09:41 Zeiryuu wrote: Flash would do well in SC2. BW and SC2 really aren't that much different. BUT, we need to see Flash actually play to say whether or not he will DOMINATE SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a night, the skin on his wrists were worn off as you could see in his photos, his team mates would force him to stop playing because his fingers would bleed from overuse, and even claimed he had achieved "enlightenment".
Compared to Nestea, he is on a completely different level.
Where do you have this from? It contradicts everything I've heard. I'm not sure about his wrist/skin problems, but they've certainly not necessarily come from playing.
In one interview he said he was only sleeping 3 hours a night, the rest starcraft.
Look at the HD photos of Flash where you can zoom in on his wrist, there are very visible blisters from grinding his wrist on the mousepad for 20 hours a day.
In another interview I think it was his coach, told a story where Flash got blisters on his hands and then they started bleeding, but he wouldn't stop. His team mates had to force him to stop.
I've read all of Flash's and almost every other progamer interviews, sift through those if you want to find out.
His wrist problem is a different story altogether. That's most likely a case of RSI, knotted muscles from not positioning your wrists and arms ergonomically I assume (its actually quite common with programmers as well). If you look at the way Flash plays he has very bad posture, when I saw him play in his first finals vs Jaedong I was wondering how he didn't have wrist problems.
On July 08 2011 21:36 Spitfire wrote: It would be so epic if Flash, Jaedong and Bisu switched to StarCraft 2. It feels like this momentous occasion thats being built up to more and more and when it finally happens the world will explode.
But I have doubts about certain things:
A) Whether Flash will keep his race or not. Jaedong and Bisu will stick to their races I think, and I hope Flash does too, but does Terran in SC 2 suit his turtling Brood War playing style as well?
B) Whether they'll dominate as completely as people think. Having the best mechanics is a huge advantage but not enough in SC2, so many of the top BW players seem to lose games because of the differences when it comes to scouting in SC2. They're all used to playing in a reactive away because of BW and I think I've heard some of them comment on how much harder it is to be prepared in SC 2
Something a lot of people forget. At first Flash was known for being the best at cheese, and doing it every game. Now not only is Flash the best at cheesing, he is the best at turtling too. Meaning he can leverage his already insane mind-gaming ability to an extreme level.
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
Flash would dominate SC2. He is like a chess player playing against people who play checkers.
I wasn't even a fan of his until i witnessed how he completely dismantled Jaedong and Zero with unbelievable timing pushes. and great defenses of his base. This guy can do everything.
It would be an embarrassment for people to say that people like MC, Nestea and others would have a shot against flash in SC2 if Flash decides to play. If you haven't watched flash play recently, you can't really comment on this thread. please argue with educated rts reponses here.
On July 08 2011 20:44 UkGracken wrote: I think that people just have to realise that the BEST players of every race have also been the highest up in BW of all the players when they left BW,
MC MVP (took a game off flash in tvt.. just no comment at how unreal good u must be to do that.) NESTEA
There is little doubt julyzerg, boxer, nada, Were better players at that "time" in there BW carrier, but that was a long time ago for all of them (In starcraft bw terms 6 months is half a lifetime)
And i recall idra saying "if stork swapped over and played protoss he would litrally never lose a game"
Obviously he is saying protoss is strong but he is also saying that argueably (Although the fact he has won like 10 silverplace medals says so.) the most consistent best protoss swapped to protoss in sc2 he would never lose,
Anyone who watches FLASH or JAEDONG or STORK or BISU in fpvod will know if they ever swap over hell is going to break loose
Just think there were many many top players who started years and years later ..and now are untouchable.
They didn't call jaedong the dragonslayer for nothing.
Edit :
For people who didnt know.. They called him the dragonslayer because when he was "Coming" up in his carrier he just beat the best legends one after another, slaying the dragons of starcraft 1 by 1.
Quit talking out of your ass bro. MC wasn't that good at Brood War, Nestea mostly played in 2v2 tourneys, and MVP was kind of decent. No way in hell they were "the highest up in BW".
He's not saying MC, Nestea, and MVP were good at Broodwar. Instead, he's saying they're the best Broodwar players to actually switch (with the caveat that July, Boxer, and Nada were relatively more dominant, but not absolutely superior to the aforementioned players).
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
On July 16 2011 15:33 Alabasern wrote: He needs to rest after his reign is over in BW and let his body repair itself while studying ScII or coaching in BW.
the only way his reign in BW ends is if the wrist becomes a chronic problem. the guaranteed money of raping OSL season after season is much more appealing than the inconsistencies of sc2.
On July 16 2011 15:33 Alabasern wrote: He needs to rest after his reign is over in BW and let his body repair itself while studying ScII or coaching in BW.
the only way his reign in BW ends is if the wrist becomes a chronic problem. the guaranteed money of raping OSL season after season is much more appealing than the inconsistencies of sc2.
What inconsistencies? On the contrary, there are more big prize tournaments for sc2 than bw. GSL, MLG, NASL, Dreamhack and many many tournies with 1k-5k prizes scattered here and there.
On July 16 2011 15:33 Alabasern wrote: He needs to rest after his reign is over in BW and let his body repair itself while studying ScII or coaching in BW.
the only way his reign in BW ends is if the wrist becomes a chronic problem. the guaranteed money of raping OSL season after season is much more appealing than the inconsistencies of sc2.
What inconsistencies? On the contrary, there are more big prize tournaments for sc2 than bw. GSL, MLG, NASL, Dreamhack and many many tournies with 1k-5k prizes scattered here and there.
Last interview I saw had him at over 250,000USD salary not counting sponsorship bonuses and prize money. Sc2 money to Flash is peanuts.
On July 16 2011 15:33 Alabasern wrote: He needs to rest after his reign is over in BW and let his body repair itself while studying ScII or coaching in BW.
the only way his reign in BW ends is if the wrist becomes a chronic problem. the guaranteed money of raping OSL season after season is much more appealing than the inconsistencies of sc2.
What inconsistencies? On the contrary, there are more big prize tournaments for sc2 than bw. GSL, MLG, NASL, Dreamhack and many many tournies with 1k-5k prizes scattered here and there.
rumors are that flash makes 200k a year, plus his food/home get paid for and that doesn't include prize money... so hes definitely making way more than he would in SC2... even if he won GSL every time... 200k a year is pretty ridiculous
On July 16 2011 15:33 Alabasern wrote: He needs to rest after his reign is over in BW and let his body repair itself while studying ScII or coaching in BW.
the only way his reign in BW ends is if the wrist becomes a chronic problem. the guaranteed money of raping OSL season after season is much more appealing than the inconsistencies of sc2.
What inconsistencies? On the contrary, there are more big prize tournaments for sc2 than bw. GSL, MLG, NASL, Dreamhack and many many tournies with 1k-5k prizes scattered here and there.
rumors are that flash makes 200k a year, plus his food/home get paid for and that doesn't include prize money... so hes definitely making way more than he would in SC2... even if he won GSL every time... 200k a year is pretty ridiculous
On July 16 2011 15:33 Alabasern wrote: He needs to rest after his reign is over in BW and let his body repair itself while studying ScII or coaching in BW.
the only way his reign in BW ends is if the wrist becomes a chronic problem. the guaranteed money of raping OSL season after season is much more appealing than the inconsistencies of sc2.
What inconsistencies? On the contrary, there are more big prize tournaments for sc2 than bw. GSL, MLG, NASL, Dreamhack and many many tournies with 1k-5k prizes scattered here and there.
Last interview I saw had him at over 250,000USD salary not counting sponsorship bonuses and prize money. Sc2 money to Flash is peanuts.
Didn't he say that he made like $480,000 in 2010 counting salary, prize money, bonus, weekly MVP awards, etc. Or am I just crazy.
On July 08 2011 20:44 UkGracken wrote: I think that people just have to realise that the BEST players of every race have also been the highest up in BW of all the players when they left BW,
MC MVP (took a game off flash in tvt.. just no comment at how unreal good u must be to do that.) NESTEA
There is little doubt julyzerg, boxer, nada, Were better players at that "time" in there BW carrier, but that was a long time ago for all of them (In starcraft bw terms 6 months is half a lifetime)
And i recall idra saying "if stork swapped over and played protoss he would litrally never lose a game"
Obviously he is saying protoss is strong but he is also saying that argueably (Although the fact he has won like 10 silverplace medals says so.) the most consistent best protoss swapped to protoss in sc2 he would never lose,
Anyone who watches FLASH or JAEDONG or STORK or BISU in fpvod will know if they ever swap over hell is going to break loose
Just think there were many many top players who started years and years later ..and now are untouchable.
They didn't call jaedong the dragonslayer for nothing.
Edit :
For people who didnt know.. They called him the dragonslayer because when he was "Coming" up in his carrier he just beat the best legends one after another, slaying the dragons of starcraft 1 by 1.
Quit talking out of your ass bro. MC wasn't that good at Brood War, Nestea mostly played in 2v2 tourneys, and MVP was kind of decent. No way in hell they were "the highest up in BW".
He's not saying MC, Nestea, and MVP were good at Broodwar. Instead, he's saying they're the best Broodwar players to actually switch (with the caveat that July, Boxer, and Nada were relatively more dominant, but not absolutely superior to the aforementioned players).
I haven't read the rest of the thread so maybe I'm missing something here, but July was infinitely better in every way imaginable at BW than Nestea. Plus Sangho was definitely more successful than MC. I'm not saying this to suggest BW skill hasn't translated over very well to Sc2 skill, but it's not as clear-cut as people make it out to be.
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
On May 27 2011 09:41 Zeiryuu wrote: Flash would do well in SC2. BW and SC2 really aren't that much different. BUT, we need to see Flash actually play to say whether or not he will DOMINATE SC2.
Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a night, the skin on his wrists were worn off as you could see in his photos, his team mates would force him to stop playing because his fingers would bleed from overuse, and even claimed he had achieved "enlightenment".
Compared to Nestea, he is on a completely different level.
Where do you have this from? It contradicts everything I've heard. I'm not sure about his wrist/skin problems, but they've certainly not necessarily come from playing.
In one interview he said he was only sleeping 3 hours a night, the rest starcraft.
Look at the HD photos of Flash where you can zoom in on his wrist, there are very visible blisters from grinding his wrist on the mousepad for 20 hours a day.
In another interview I think it was his coach, told a story where Flash got blisters on his hands and then they started bleeding, but he wouldn't stop. His team mates had to force him to stop.
I've read all of Flash's and almost every other progamer interviews, sift through those if you want to find out.
His wrist problem is a different story altogether. That's most likely a case of RSI, knotted muscles from not positioning your wrists and arms ergonomically I assume (its actually quite common with programmers as well). If you look at the way Flash plays he has very bad posture, when I saw him play in his first finals vs Jaedong I was wondering how he didn't have wrist problems.
On July 08 2011 21:36 Spitfire wrote: It would be so epic if Flash, Jaedong and Bisu switched to StarCraft 2. It feels like this momentous occasion thats being built up to more and more and when it finally happens the world will explode.
But I have doubts about certain things:
A) Whether Flash will keep his race or not. Jaedong and Bisu will stick to their races I think, and I hope Flash does too, but does Terran in SC 2 suit his turtling Brood War playing style as well?
B) Whether they'll dominate as completely as people think. Having the best mechanics is a huge advantage but not enough in SC2, so many of the top BW players seem to lose games because of the differences when it comes to scouting in SC2. They're all used to playing in a reactive away because of BW and I think I've heard some of them comment on how much harder it is to be prepared in SC 2
Something a lot of people forget. At first Flash was known for being the best at cheese, and doing it every game. Now not only is Flash the best at cheesing, he is the best at turtling too. Meaning he can leverage his already insane mind-gaming ability to an extreme level.
Flash has the "it" factor. He can come up with insane strats that, as you said, his mind games and mechanics carry it through. I hope that he eventually switches to SC2. But for now I love the ass kicking he delivers in the best game ever made.
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
Maybe, I think it's impossible to say for sure thought unless you get a lot of replays and compare them.
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
Maybe, I think it's impossible to say for sure thought unless you get a lot of replays and compare them.
I would have to agree that Flash is more known for his game sense than his mechanics even though his mechanics are amazing. Either way though...I honestly can't imagine TBLS not raping face in SC2 within a month or two of switching should they choose. The fact is, most of the people at the top of the SC2 scene are the mediocre players of BW. They were B team/ fringe A team guys at the time of their switch. The best terrans so far in sc2 have been ex BW terrans. The best protoss so far have been ex BW protoss. The best zergs have so far been...well aside from zergbong, ex BW terrans (yea i know lol). Sure it's not a given but there is an extremely strong correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Even if the A/S class BW powerhouses don't rape face, they will DEFINITELY be amongst the best at their respective races in a fairly short amount of time.
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
Maybe, I think it's impossible to say for sure thought unless you get a lot of replays and compare them.
I would have to agree that Flash is more known for his game sense than his mechanics even though his mechanics are amazing. Either way though...I honestly can't imagine TBLS not raping face in SC2 within a month or two of switching should they choose. The fact is, most of the people at the top of the SC2 scene are the mediocre players of BW. They were B team/ fringe A team guys at the time of their switch. The best terrans so far in sc2 have been ex BW terrans. The best protoss so far have been ex BW protoss. The best zergs have so far been...well aside from zergbong, ex BW terrans (yea i know lol). Sure it's not a given but there is an extremely strong correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Even if the A/S class BW powerhouses don't rape face, they will DEFINITELY be amongst the best at their respective races in a fairly short amount of time.
not two months. Skills are transferable, but it is a different game, it's not just a watered down brood war. It is a serious esport. No one dominates in 2 months
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
Maybe, I think it's impossible to say for sure thought unless you get a lot of replays and compare them.
I would have to agree that Flash is more known for his game sense than his mechanics even though his mechanics are amazing. Either way though...I honestly can't imagine TBLS not raping face in SC2 within a month or two of switching should they choose. The fact is, most of the people at the top of the SC2 scene are the mediocre players of BW. They were B team/ fringe A team guys at the time of their switch. The best terrans so far in sc2 have been ex BW terrans. The best protoss so far have been ex BW protoss. The best zergs have so far been...well aside from zergbong, ex BW terrans (yea i know lol). Sure it's not a given but there is an extremely strong correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Even if the A/S class BW powerhouses don't rape face, they will DEFINITELY be amongst the best at their respective races in a fairly short amount of time.
not two months. Skills are transferable, but it is a different game, it's not just a watered down brood war. It is a serious esport. No one dominates in 2 months
It is a different game, but there is not much difference at all. Its basically the simplified version(mechanics wise) of brood war with different units. If Flash had a coach and good practice buddy telling him what to do at any point in the game he would improve so freaking fast. Trust me on that one
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
Maybe, I think it's impossible to say for sure thought unless you get a lot of replays and compare them.
I would have to agree that Flash is more known for his game sense than his mechanics even though his mechanics are amazing. Either way though...I honestly can't imagine TBLS not raping face in SC2 within a month or two of switching should they choose. The fact is, most of the people at the top of the SC2 scene are the mediocre players of BW. They were B team/ fringe A team guys at the time of their switch. The best terrans so far in sc2 have been ex BW terrans. The best protoss so far have been ex BW protoss. The best zergs have so far been...well aside from zergbong, ex BW terrans (yea i know lol). Sure it's not a given but there is an extremely strong correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Even if the A/S class BW powerhouses don't rape face, they will DEFINITELY be amongst the best at their respective races in a fairly short amount of time.
not two months. Skills are transferable, but it is a different game, it's not just a watered down brood war. It is a serious esport. No one dominates in 2 months
Puma is arguably the best player to transfer over and it only took him a few months to win NASL, obviously relying only on his mechanics and still behind in terms of strategy and game sense.
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
Maybe, I think it's impossible to say for sure thought unless you get a lot of replays and compare them.
I would have to agree that Flash is more known for his game sense than his mechanics even though his mechanics are amazing. Either way though...I honestly can't imagine TBLS not raping face in SC2 within a month or two of switching should they choose. The fact is, most of the people at the top of the SC2 scene are the mediocre players of BW. They were B team/ fringe A team guys at the time of their switch. The best terrans so far in sc2 have been ex BW terrans. The best protoss so far have been ex BW protoss. The best zergs have so far been...well aside from zergbong, ex BW terrans (yea i know lol). Sure it's not a given but there is an extremely strong correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Even if the A/S class BW powerhouses don't rape face, they will DEFINITELY be amongst the best at their respective races in a fairly short amount of time.
not two months. Skills are transferable, but it is a different game, it's not just a watered down brood war. It is a serious esport. No one dominates in 2 months
Puma is arguably the best player to transfer over and it only took him a few months to win NASL, obviously relying only on his mechanics and still behind in terms of strategy and game sense.
A few months? According to the "Puma -> EG" thread he had been with TSL for 10 months(quote in OP by coach Lee) and in the interview with coach Lee translated from playxp he said that they had been together for a year(first question answered, third row).
How is that anything like a high profile bw player just magically mastering the game in a couple of months? He's basically been playing in a professional team practising with professional practice partners full time for almost a year. Coincidentally, the game has been out for about that long so in essence, Puma has been playing SC2 since the very start.
no high profile brood war player has switched yet. so really...no one actually knows how fast they would master the game. it can be assumed though that a high profile brood war player would master the game faster than a much worse brood war player like puma, mvp, zergbong etc.
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
Maybe, I think it's impossible to say for sure thought unless you get a lot of replays and compare them.
I would have to agree that Flash is more known for his game sense than his mechanics even though his mechanics are amazing. Either way though...I honestly can't imagine TBLS not raping face in SC2 within a month or two of switching should they choose. The fact is, most of the people at the top of the SC2 scene are the mediocre players of BW. They were B team/ fringe A team guys at the time of their switch. The best terrans so far in sc2 have been ex BW terrans. The best protoss so far have been ex BW protoss. The best zergs have so far been...well aside from zergbong, ex BW terrans (yea i know lol). Sure it's not a given but there is an extremely strong correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Even if the A/S class BW powerhouses don't rape face, they will DEFINITELY be amongst the best at their respective races in a fairly short amount of time.
not two months. Skills are transferable, but it is a different game, it's not just a watered down brood war. It is a serious esport. No one dominates in 2 months
Look at NaDa. Guy is still in school, barely practices (by progaming standards) and is doing amazingly well. Look at July. Within months of breaking into the scene from his retirement in BW, he was making a huge splash in GSL and later on, NASL. Almost all the top tier sc2 players have a BW background...why is that? Well, it could be coincidence OR it could just be that many of the skills are transferable. Which is precisely why that and work ethic would propel the current BW powerhouses into the SC2 elite within a very short period of time.
On July 23 2011 14:41 Diglett wrote: no high profile brood war player has switched yet. so really...no one actually knows how fast they would master the game. it can be assumed though that a high profile brood war player would master the game faster than a much worse brood war player like puma, mvp, zergbong etc.
Basically this. The current top tier players have showed what solid BW grounding brings to the table. They were all basically fringe A teamers/B teamers at the time of their switch. A current S class BW player might not have the same grasp of SC2 right away, but right off the bat, their micro, multitasking, and game sense would be far better than the current crop of players.
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
Maybe, I think it's impossible to say for sure thought unless you get a lot of replays and compare them.
I would have to agree that Flash is more known for his game sense than his mechanics even though his mechanics are amazing. Either way though...I honestly can't imagine TBLS not raping face in SC2 within a month or two of switching should they choose. The fact is, most of the people at the top of the SC2 scene are the mediocre players of BW. They were B team/ fringe A team guys at the time of their switch. The best terrans so far in sc2 have been ex BW terrans. The best protoss so far have been ex BW protoss. The best zergs have so far been...well aside from zergbong, ex BW terrans (yea i know lol). Sure it's not a given but there is an extremely strong correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Even if the A/S class BW powerhouses don't rape face, they will DEFINITELY be amongst the best at their respective races in a fairly short amount of time.
not two months. Skills are transferable, but it is a different game, it's not just a watered down brood war. It is a serious esport. No one dominates in 2 months
Puma is arguably the best player to transfer over and it only took him a few months to win NASL, obviously relying only on his mechanics and still behind in terms of strategy and game sense.
A few months? According to the "Puma -> EG" thread he had been with TSL for 10 months(quote in OP by coach Lee) and in the interview with coach Lee translated from playxp he said that they had been together for a year(first question answered, third row).
How is that anything like a high profile bw player just magically mastering the game in a couple of months? He's basically been playing in a professional team practising with professional practice partners full time for almost a year. Coincidentally, the game has been out for about that long so in essence, Puma has been playing SC2 since the very start.
That isn't true. Puma was still a part of Hite back in late October of last year, so he has not been playing SC2 "fulltime" nor has he been apart of TSL for a year.
On July 23 2011 14:41 Diglett wrote: no high profile brood war player has switched yet. so really...no one actually knows how fast they would master the game. it can be assumed though that a high profile brood war player would master the game faster than a much worse brood war player like puma, mvp, zergbong etc.
Basically this. The current top tier players have showed what solid BW grounding brings to the table. They were all basically fringe A teamers/B teamers at the time of their switch. A current S class BW player might not have the same grasp of SC2 right away, but right off the bat, their micro, multitasking, and game sense would be far better than the current crop of players.
Yes. Someone else (and others) mentioned earlier but another important thing is worth ethic.
Top BW players typically practice at least 10-12+ hours a day.
That's huge. Not many SC2 players practice that many hours a day.
If the same BW players transfer over and practice that many hours a day, they'll likely improve significantly (with their already existing micro, macro, mechanics, etc).
Top BW players are at the top because of their worth ethic (maybe with a few rare exceptions).
Flash is good but he practices an average of 10+ hours a day I think, even though he's been doing so well (of course unfortunately his wrist is injured >.<) already.
I'm assuming the average person who practices that much (even if they never played an RTS before) will improve significantly faster than those who only practice half that amount.
So yes you can get "Joe never-played-an-RTS before" and you put him in a team house and have him practice. If he practices and studies strategies 10 hours a day, 7 days a week, then he could probably be able to defeat existing top players within maybe half a year or so (assuming the current top players do not practice as much >.>). For existing BW players, a lot of their mechanics transfers over so that time is reduced.
Of course an important thing is who you practice with. All examples are assumed that the practice is in a team house or any competitive environment.
BW vs SC2 - The strategies are different for some things but mechanics are at least half of the game IMO and BW mechanics can easily transfer to SC2.
On July 23 2011 14:41 Diglett wrote: no high profile brood war player has switched yet. so really...no one actually knows how fast they would master the game. it can be assumed though that a high profile brood war player would master the game faster than a much worse brood war player like puma, mvp, zergbong etc.
Basically this. The current top tier players have showed what solid BW grounding brings to the table. They were all basically fringe A teamers/B teamers at the time of their switch. A current S class BW player might not have the same grasp of SC2 right away, but right off the bat, their micro, multitasking, and game sense would be far better than the current crop of players.
forgg is in top10 kr ladder. he was constantly on KT A team when he was in BW.
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
Maybe, I think it's impossible to say for sure thought unless you get a lot of replays and compare them.
I would have to agree that Flash is more known for his game sense than his mechanics even though his mechanics are amazing. Either way though...I honestly can't imagine TBLS not raping face in SC2 within a month or two of switching should they choose. The fact is, most of the people at the top of the SC2 scene are the mediocre players of BW. They were B team/ fringe A team guys at the time of their switch. The best terrans so far in sc2 have been ex BW terrans. The best protoss so far have been ex BW protoss. The best zergs have so far been...well aside from zergbong, ex BW terrans (yea i know lol). Sure it's not a given but there is an extremely strong correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Even if the A/S class BW powerhouses don't rape face, they will DEFINITELY be amongst the best at their respective races in a fairly short amount of time.
not two months. Skills are transferable, but it is a different game, it's not just a watered down brood war. It is a serious esport. No one dominates in 2 months
Look at NaDa. Guy is still in school, barely practices (by progaming standards) and is doing amazingly well. Look at July. Within months of breaking into the scene from his retirement in BW, he was making a huge splash in GSL and later on, NASL. Almost all the top tier sc2 players have a BW background...why is that? Well, it could be coincidence OR it could just be that many of the skills are transferable. Which is precisely why that and work ethic would propel the current BW powerhouses into the SC2 elite within a very short period of time.
like i said, skills are transferable, but i think gaming experience in general just makes it a lot easier. A lot of the warcraft 3 players are doing quite well too. Nada isn't on top and July is extremely inconsistent. Also, nada was in sc2 since practically the beginning, so even though he's only part time, he's been keeping up on the metagame and such.
Stop acting like just because BW experience is transferable that it's stupid to believe it would take longer than 2 months. SC2 4 months ago was much more approachable than it is now. It would take flash longer than 2 months to dominate.
I also wouldn't consider puma in a dominating position. He's won one tourney, granted, against MC, but it may be a while until we see him again. He's also been with TSL for atleast 4 months, since his first appearance was on GSTL march and was probably on the team much longer than that. And like i said before SC2 4 months ago was more approachable.
I think the floodgates will open when the current round of BW contracts expire and the first current A teamers start coming over. Once people are practicing 10+ hours a day and are seriously training to compete it's gonna get really exciting.
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
Maybe, I think it's impossible to say for sure thought unless you get a lot of replays and compare them.
I would have to agree that Flash is more known for his game sense than his mechanics even though his mechanics are amazing. Either way though...I honestly can't imagine TBLS not raping face in SC2 within a month or two of switching should they choose. The fact is, most of the people at the top of the SC2 scene are the mediocre players of BW. They were B team/ fringe A team guys at the time of their switch. The best terrans so far in sc2 have been ex BW terrans. The best protoss so far have been ex BW protoss. The best zergs have so far been...well aside from zergbong, ex BW terrans (yea i know lol). Sure it's not a given but there is an extremely strong correlation between BW success and SC2 success. Even if the A/S class BW powerhouses don't rape face, they will DEFINITELY be amongst the best at their respective races in a fairly short amount of time.
not two months. Skills are transferable, but it is a different game, it's not just a watered down brood war. It is a serious esport. No one dominates in 2 months
Look at NaDa. Guy is still in school, barely practices (by progaming standards) and is doing amazingly well. Look at July. Within months of breaking into the scene from his retirement in BW, he was making a huge splash in GSL and later on, NASL. Almost all the top tier sc2 players have a BW background...why is that? Well, it could be coincidence OR it could just be that many of the skills are transferable. Which is precisely why that and work ethic would propel the current BW powerhouses into the SC2 elite within a very short period of time.
like i said, skills are transferable, but i think gaming experience in general just makes it a lot easier. A lot of the warcraft 3 players are doing quite well too. Nada isn't on top and July is extremely inconsistent. Also, nada was in sc2 since practically the beginning, so even though he's only part time, he's been keeping up on the metagame and such.
Stop acting like just because BW experience is transferable that it's stupid to believe it would take longer than 2 months. SC2 4 months ago was much more approachable than it is now. It would take flash longer than 2 months to dominate.
I also wouldn't consider puma in a dominating position. He's won one tourney, granted, against MC, but it may be a while until we see him again. He's also been with TSL for atleast 4 months, since his first appearance was on GSTL march and was probably on the team much longer than that. And like i said before SC2 4 months ago was more approachable.
NaDa might not be the top but he's one of the most consistently solid Terrans around. 15 out of 18 GSL code S finalists have been ex BW pros. Considering absolutely none of these guys are anywhere near the level of RTS player that the BW S guys are, I don't think its absolutely inconceivable that given a couple of months time, they would start to become a force to be reckoned with in SC2 just by taking the meta builds and play styles and executing them better through their mechanics/multitasking/micro.
On July 25 2011 11:01 lolsixtynine wrote: I think the floodgates will open when the current round of BW contracts expire and the first current A teamers start coming over. Once people are practicing 10+ hours a day and are seriously training to compete it's gonna get really exciting.
Only a handful of SC2 progamers even have salaries. BW progamers are contracted for a reason - they actually get money for the work they do. Don't kid yourself, there isn't gonna be any massive exodus once those contracts expire. The vast majority of BW progamers that wanted to switch already did so (they contracts didn't have to expire from what I recall, although I'm not entirely sure). Compared to BW, SC2 has no infrastructure in Korea, why would those players switch?
On July 23 2011 14:41 Diglett wrote: no high profile brood war player has switched yet. so really...no one actually knows how fast they would master the game. it can be assumed though that a high profile brood war player would master the game faster than a much worse brood war player like puma, mvp, zergbong etc.
Basically this. The current top tier players have showed what solid BW grounding brings to the table. They were all basically fringe A teamers/B teamers at the time of their switch. A current S class BW player might not have the same grasp of SC2 right away, but right off the bat, their micro, multitasking, and game sense would be far better than the current crop of players.
forgg is in top10 kr ladder. he was constantly on KT A team when he was in BW.
ForGG is retired and was hardly S-Class at the time of his retirement. Shows just how even normal A-Class players would do in Sc2, seeing top 10 in kr is huge.
Also, it's not only the mechanics. S-Class BW players are simply brilliant at RTS and strategies/tactics. Once they get used to SC2, they'll probably reform the game and probably create an entirely new way of playing certain things or matchups. It will happen as it happened in BW over time.
On July 23 2011 14:41 Diglett wrote: no high profile brood war player has switched yet. so really...no one actually knows how fast they would master the game. it can be assumed though that a high profile brood war player would master the game faster than a much worse brood war player like puma, mvp, zergbong etc.
Basically this. The current top tier players have showed what solid BW grounding brings to the table. They were all basically fringe A teamers/B teamers at the time of their switch. A current S class BW player might not have the same grasp of SC2 right away, but right off the bat, their micro, multitasking, and game sense would be far better than the current crop of players.
Yes. Someone else (and others) mentioned earlier but another important thing is worth ethic.
Top BW players typically practice at least 10-12+ hours a day.
That's huge. Not many SC2 players practice that many hours a day.
If the same BW players transfer over and practice that many hours a day, they'll likely improve significantly (with their already existing micro, macro, mechanics, etc).
Top BW players are at the top because of their worth ethic (maybe with a few rare exceptions).
Flash is good but he practices an average of 10+ hours a day I think, even though he's been doing so well (of course unfortunately his wrist is injured >.<) already.
I'm assuming the average person who practices that much (even if they never played an RTS before) will improve significantly faster than those who only practice half that amount.
So yes you can get "Joe never-played-an-RTS before" and you put him in a team house and have him practice. If he practices and studies strategies 10 hours a day, 7 days a week, then he could probably be able to defeat existing top players within maybe half a year or so (assuming the current top players do not practice as much >.>). For existing BW players, a lot of their mechanics transfers over so that time is reduced.
Of course an important thing is who you practice with. All examples are assumed that the practice is in a team house or any competitive environment.
BW vs SC2 - The strategies are different for some things but mechanics are at least half of the game IMO and BW mechanics can easily transfer to SC2.
Excepting Stork. Guys too busy playing those hardcore cellphone games to be bothered with something as simple as BW.
Let's stop this pointless arguing and stick with the facts:
15 of 18 GSL finalists had been (B, fringe A team) bs pros.
ALL bw pros that have switched over to sc2 for more than just a few months have done well.
So those who are still trying to argue that sc2 is a different game, where the skills are not totally tranferable and it's not certain bisu/jaedong/flash would dominate the scene are just hopeless bigots who have never watched and been awed by the inhuman speed/precision/decision making/build crafting abilities of actually good be players, the S and A+ ones.
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
Bisu technically has the best mechanics. His multitasking is the best, and that's not even debatable. Still, Jaedong's mechanics are a bit above Flash, but Flash still dominates through his amazing game sense, timings and strategies.
On July 12 2011 14:19 udgnim wrote: Flash would do well in SC2
Flash isn't the best player ever in BW because of his APM nor is it because he does a better job of playing robotically than other players.
he's the best because his game sense & feel for timing is greater than all other BW players. there are plenty of players with APMs greater than Flash, but they don't come close to Flash's skill level because they lack and will never be able to realize the game sense that Flash possesses.
Flash's ability to develop a strong feel for a game will definitely transfer over to what can be considered a more simplified BW-esque game.
He also has the best mechanics and prepares better than anyone else.
I think Jaedong has the best mechanics.. Flash is known for his hacklike decision making.
Bisu technically has the best mechanics. His multitasking is the best, and that's not even debatable. Still, Jaedong's mechanics are a bit above Flash, but Flash still dominates through his amazing game sense, timings and strategies.
Idk...the Dong's multitask is pretty nuts too. Maybe Bisu just seems better because he owns the MU as well as the head to head lately? BvZ imba lol
On April 30 2011 16:15 GolemMadness wrote: I didn't really watch MVP as a Brood War player, but looking at his stats, his overall record was 39%... How is this good in any way?
If you transplanted Boxer et al in their primes to modern bw, they'd do worse than 39%. The point being, bw has evolved so much from when the past legends earned their legacy that the absolute skill level is much higher. The old legends (except for the hypothetical case of an inspired Nada, maybe) can't and couldn't keep up with the newer generations of players.
That's ridiculous. Yeah, if you suddenly put them 8 years in the future and they tried to play exactly the same they wouldn't do too well, but they were the best at their time for a reason. Boxer couldn't keep up because he was 30 years old and was in the military for 2 years, so he was far past his prime.
On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote: Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what?
And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all.
On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote: Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now.
This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years.
......MVP was better than Boxer and Nada at their peaks? Do you even know what Starcraft is?
Anyway, they were the best in their time because they found certain innovations before anyone else, and happened to have the technical/strategic ability to continue the innovation for however long. Boxer, July, Nada etc were past their primes because they couldn't keep up mentally and physically. Even if they tried to apply themselves 100% to bw again, they don't have the same favorable confluence of factors for success. Their innovations have long become textbook, or even outdated. Not that I'm trying to blackmouth them at all, but I don't think it's realistic to think they'd become very competitive if only they applied themselves.
they were bonjwas for a reason..... your posts are silly they weren't just gimmicky wins from them discovering some unknown truth before others, it's because they were truly the best in multiple ways. Did you ever follow the bw scene or are you just trying to piss people off by saying dumb things about some of the greatest sc players of all time?
Yeah there is no doubt that Flash would do great things playing starcraft2. He got the talent/potential for it. It's just a matter of time before he transfer over to starcraft2 and make a living out of it. He will be a good/free agent pretty fast. And the teams will stand in line to recruit him for sure.
EPT
MC, the world's best StarCraft 2 player and a two time GSL champion, sits down in the interview chair as the next subject for SK Gaming's 1on1 series. In part one (of three) MC looks back on the game he came from: Brood War.
NesTea, 
MVP, 
And I would be so sad if JD ever moved..
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/3yqBO.jpg)
