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On April 30 2011 16:21 jellyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 16:15 GolemMadness wrote:
I didn't really watch MVP as a Brood War player, but looking at his stats, his overall record was 39%... How is this good in any way? If you transplanted Boxer et al in their primes to modern bw, they'd do worse than 39%. The point being, bw has evolved so much from when the past legends earned their legacy that the absolute skill level is much higher. The old legends (except for the hypothetical case of an inspired Nada, maybe) can't and couldn't keep up with the newer generations of players.
That's ridiculous. Yeah, if you suddenly put them 8 years in the future and they tried to play exactly the same they wouldn't do too well, but they were the best at their time for a reason. Boxer couldn't keep up because he was 30 years old and was in the military for 2 years, so he was far past his prime.
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On April 30 2011 16:28 Loodah wrote:
I'm sorry to anyone I offend -
There have already been some amazing broodwar players to come to sc2. July, Nada, and Boxer have already proven that BW pros can transition.
HOWEVER, this is a different game. If Flash decided to switch, I don't think he would have nearly the same level of success at this point. It's just too different of a game, and the players that are the best right now have proven to be the best consistently in SC2. The game is a bit volatile, and the metagame is changing drastically, but the top players always seem to stay ahead with respect to build orders and strategies.
man, how many times do we have to repeat that july nada boxer were only amazing during their respective times.
players in BW have gotten so much better over the years. comparing Flash to July/Nada/Boxer at the time they left BW for SC2, they'd probably have a hard time taking even a game off Flash. the difference would be farrr greater than the difference between MC and some random code A player.
one thing to note, is it's not simply that july/nada/boxer were really good then their skills dropped. it's more that other ppl just kept getting better and better and they couldn't keep up.
what's truly hacks about Flash isn't just his mechanics, but moreso his game sense. he sometimes plays like he has maphacks on. this is why Flash would do so well in sc2 compared to someone like Baby who's famous for his multitasking.
and ppl saying BW is all figured out should stop spewing random shit out of their asses b/c clearly they don't watch BW.
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On April 30 2011 16:32 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 16:21 jellyfish wrote:On April 30 2011 16:15 GolemMadness wrote:
I didn't really watch MVP as a Brood War player, but looking at his stats, his overall record was 39%... How is this good in any way? If you transplanted Boxer et al in their primes to modern bw, they'd do worse than 39%. The point being, bw has evolved so much from when the past legends earned their legacy that the absolute skill level is much higher. The old legends (except for the hypothetical case of an inspired Nada, maybe) can't and couldn't keep up with the newer generations of players. That's ridiculous. Yeah, if you suddenly put them 8 years in the future and they tried to play exactly the same they wouldn't do too well, but they were the best at their time for a reason. Boxer couldn't keep up because he was 30 years old and was in the military for 2 years, so he was far past his prime.
It's not ridiculous to think that the overall skill level of players has increased drastically as BW developed. 90% of the progamers now are just better players than the progamers from the pre-2005 era.
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On April 30 2011 16:32 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 16:21 jellyfish wrote:On April 30 2011 16:15 GolemMadness wrote:
I didn't really watch MVP as a Brood War player, but looking at his stats, his overall record was 39%... How is this good in any way? If you transplanted Boxer et al in their primes to modern bw, they'd do worse than 39%. The point being, bw has evolved so much from when the past legends earned their legacy that the absolute skill level is much higher. The old legends (except for the hypothetical case of an inspired Nada, maybe) can't and couldn't keep up with the newer generations of players. That's ridiculous. Yeah, if you suddenly put them 8 years in the future and they tried to play exactly the same they wouldn't do too well, but they were the best at their time for a reason. Boxer couldn't keep up because he was 30 years old and was in the military for 2 years, so he was far past his prime.
Just watch a SC game at like 2002 and compare the current BW games. The skill level is much higher.Boxer at his very best will still never beat TBLS.
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On April 30 2011 16:32 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 16:21 jellyfish wrote:On April 30 2011 16:15 GolemMadness wrote:
I didn't really watch MVP as a Brood War player, but looking at his stats, his overall record was 39%... How is this good in any way? If you transplanted Boxer et al in their primes to modern bw, they'd do worse than 39%. The point being, bw has evolved so much from when the past legends earned their legacy that the absolute skill level is much higher. The old legends (except for the hypothetical case of an inspired Nada, maybe) can't and couldn't keep up with the newer generations of players. That's ridiculous. Yeah, if you suddenly put them 8 years in the future and they tried to play exactly the same they wouldn't do too well, but they were the best at their time for a reason. Boxer couldn't keep up because he was 30 years old and was in the military for 2 years, so he was far past his prime.
I was replying to that comment and this one:
On April 30 2011 16:07 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 11:17 infinity2k9 wrote:Yeah seriously from a BW perspective MC is a bit of a joke. Any A-team and probably half of the B-team members could play at his SC2 level. I have to say i cringed a bit when he said he'd like people to call him 'god protoss'. I mean seriously what? And yes MVP was definitely the best player to switch. But IrOn wasn't THAT far behind.. MVP got played a lot because of being the only half-decent T on his team, while MC/IrOn was not first choice at all. On April 30 2011 11:12 Tazerenix wrote:
Depends on what you mean by best. Is it the best player when they switched or the most accomplished player?
As a basketball analogy, think of Boxer and Nada as Shaq and Duncan while MVP is Zach Randolph. Is Zach Randolph close to being one of the best players in the NBA? No, he isn't. But he's a whole lot better than those two right now. This isn't quite correct though, the thing is MVP was better than Nada or Boxer at their peaks as well. That's just how much skill has progressed over the years. ......MVP was better than Boxer and Nada at their peaks? Do you even know what Starcraft is?
Anyway, they were the best in their time because they found certain innovations before anyone else, and happened to have the technical/strategic ability to continue the innovation for however long. Boxer, July, Nada etc were past their primes because they couldn't keep up mentally and physically. Even if they tried to apply themselves 100% to bw again, they don't have the same favorable confluence of factors for success. Their innovations have long become textbook, or even outdated. Not that I'm trying to blackmouth them at all, but I don't think it's realistic to think they'd become very competitive if only they applied themselves.
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On April 30 2011 16:29 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 16:17 Belegurth wrote:On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong. Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way. Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even. ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing. what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas... Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech. this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, since he is jaedong he has done it properly. Bisu is 8-2 in his last 10 and his only losses were against Flash. That's slumping?
4+ years of bw career and you show me last 10 games as an indicator? I am talking about last 1.5 year... time and slump margins are longer in bw compared to sc2 right now, if you didn't know
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intervewer needs to fix the damn tone of his voice. Does he has any control over it at all?
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On April 30 2011 16:50 Belegurth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 16:29 GolemMadness wrote:On April 30 2011 16:17 Belegurth wrote:On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong. Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way. Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even. ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing. what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas... Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech. this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, since he is jaedong he has done it properly. Bisu is 8-2 in his last 10 and his only losses were against Flash. That's slumping? 4+ years of bw career and you show me last 10 games as an indicator? I am talking about last 1.5 year...
You haven't been following BW at all then. In the past half year he has definitely resurged. 75% winrate in the just-ended Winner's League, 90.91% in PL, 80.6% overall in team leagues. Sure, he got knocked out of the MSL recently but he was in the sickest group of death of all time with JD, Flash, and Sea. He's broken his PvZ Elo peak and basically has the same winrate as Flash. How can you say he's barely out of his slump?
In response to your previous post, ZvZ has been going to Hive tech with basically every single unit used in the past few months. Queen tech is not one of the most known ways to beat mech.. Jaedong wasn't even the first to use it. He tried to use it against bio a while back but said it took too much APM. It was the Woongjin zergs who really started it (Soulkey, Zero, Crazy-Hydra). If it was so well known, why have zergs been having so much trouble with the TvZ bio->mech transition that was revolutionized just 1.5 years ago?
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I have a feeling that when BW dies Flash will not switch.. He'll probably go to college and study...
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On April 30 2011 10:53 zyzq wrote:
Flash is not human.
ban him from human tournaments
he rarely shows his human side when he plays, so solid and so strong
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On April 30 2011 16:50 Belegurth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 16:29 GolemMadness wrote:On April 30 2011 16:17 Belegurth wrote:On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong. Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way. Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even. ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing. what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas... Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech. this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, since he is jaedong he has done it properly. Bisu is 8-2 in his last 10 and his only losses were against Flash. That's slumping? 4+ years of bw career and you show me last 10 games as an indicator? I am talking about last 1.5 year... time and slump margins are longer in bw compared to sc2 right now, if you didn't know
I wasn't following the BW scene back in Bisu's heyday so I can't compare his current strength to his prime, but Bisu has been absolutely worthy of carrying the TBLS mantle ever since the start of the 10-11 proleague season (60W - 20L=75% win rate over the last 6 months). I don't know if that's long enough by your standards, but for me personally I feel like the slump is a thing of the past.
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Great interview by SK, really nice but WOW, theyre media player really sucks balls. I had to restart it atleast 15 times until i was able to watch the whole interview.
And that its Subbed and not Dubbed is a big plus in any korean interview! When its dubbed you dont get to hear his real voice which is kinda a letdown.
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On April 30 2011 16:50 Belegurth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 16:29 GolemMadness wrote:On April 30 2011 16:17 Belegurth wrote:On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong. Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way. Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even. ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing. what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas... Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech. this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, since he is jaedong he has done it properly. Bisu is 8-2 in his last 10 and his only losses were against Flash. That's slumping? 4+ years of bw career and you show me last 10 games as an indicator? I am talking about last 1.5 year... time and slump margins are longer in bw compared to sc2 right now, if you didn't know
between 2010/4/25 and 2011/4/25
Record: 85 wins - 39 losses (68.55%)
between 2009/10/1 and 2011/4/25
Record: 118 wins - 61 losses (65.92%)
those percentages are no slouch and hardly indicate a slump
hes been out of his slump for some time
edit:
i am in no way a bisu fanboy btw.
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On April 30 2011 16:55 Musou wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 16:50 Belegurth wrote:On April 30 2011 16:29 GolemMadness wrote:On April 30 2011 16:17 Belegurth wrote:On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong. Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way. Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even. ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing. what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas... Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech. this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, since he is jaedong he has done it properly. Bisu is 8-2 in his last 10 and his only losses were against Flash. That's slumping? 4+ years of bw career and you show me last 10 games as an indicator? I am talking about last 1.5 year... You haven't been following BW at all then. In the past half year he has definitely resurged. 75% winrate in the just-ended Winner's League, 90.91% in PL, 80.6% overall in team leagues. Sure, he got knocked out of the MSL recently but he was in the sickest group of death of all time with JD, Flash, and Sea. He's broken his PvZ Elo peak and basically has the same winrate as Flash. How can you say he's barely out of his slump? In response to your previous post, ZvZ has been going to Hive tech with basically every single unit used in the past few months. Queen tech is not one of the most known ways to beat mech.. Jaedong wasn't even the first to use it. He tried to use it against bio a while back but said it took too much APM. It was the Woongjin zergs who really started it (Soulkey, Zero, Crazy-Hydra). If it was so well known, why have zergs been having so much trouble with the TvZ bio->mech transition that was revolutionized just 1.5 years ago?
I can testify for the stats he listed above. Bisu's accomplishment in Proleague is beyond Jaedong's reach and ahead of Flash. Recently Bisu won the Winner League playoff for SKT by defeating both Jaedong and Flash in the decisive sets. The only reason he is out of MSL is because he was forced to play against Flash twice while SKT refused to give Bisu any time to practice due to schedule conflict with the proleague.
As one who followed both BW and SC2 closely, I can state that the true top players in BW are at a completely different level from the current SC2 players. It's not just inhuman mechanics, but also map hacking like decision making, quick adaptability to metagame shifts, creativity and god like reaction speed, combined with their own distinctive playing style that make the top level BW players so different.
I have no doubt whatsoever. NONE, that if one of Flash/Jaedong/Bisu/Stork/Fantasy transit, that individual will dominate GSL.
The reason they are not doing that is because they receive more money and greater recognition by staying with their BW team. They are already sitting at the top with trophies, huge contracts and legions of fangirls. What the hell does SC2 have that can attract them even slightly?
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Ofc Flash would be best in SC2. The only question is how much better would he be than everyone else?
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On April 30 2011 17:06 Alpina wrote:
Ofc Flash would be best in SC2. The only question is how much better would he be than everyone else?
Given that his strenght is not a big APM and its just solid mechanics and map hacking decision making I'd guess he would do awesomely good. I wonder if he would stick to Terran or if he would switch races hmmm...
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Come on, people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants
The only was to appropriately judge who is better would be to build a time machine, go back and get Boxer and Flash before they had ever played StarCraft and then drop them off back in 1998 and see who becomes better.
The entire endeavor is completely pointless and no objective statements can possibly be made. At best, you get informed conjecture, but much more likely you will get nothing more than the mindless bleating of slobbering fanboys.
That being said, my money is on time-traveling Boxer. That guy's brain just doesn't work like a regular person's. Flash might be better mechanically, but in a fresh, unexplored game setting, I think Boxer's innovation, creativity and friggin' magical mojo would come out on top.
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On April 30 2011 16:50 Belegurth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2011 16:29 GolemMadness wrote:On April 30 2011 16:17 Belegurth wrote:On April 30 2011 15:40 vek wrote:ZvZ and ZvT are undergoing major changes right now.
No it's not, zergs are still trying to rush hive tech if they don't plan to finish the game with mutalisk or hydra bust, and drops- if siege line is too strong. Protoss is also seeing a huge resurgence with Bisu and Stork leading the way. Bisu and Stork are not leading protoss like 1 and a half year now, pls. Bisu is barely out of his slump, may be not even. ZvZ, normally boring as hell, has had some really exciting matches this year because the matchup is still changing. what is changing exactly? if both won't go muta, one of them defenses with spores and try to kill with zergling count, or goes econ and make mutas... Also, just 2 days ago Jaedong made 20 Queens and won ZvT Mech. this is one of the most known ways to defeat mech. it's not new. but it's hard to pull off, since he is jaedong he has done it properly. Bisu is 8-2 in his last 10 and his only losses were against Flash. That's slumping? 4+ years of bw career and you show me last 10 games as an indicator? I am talking about last 1.5 year... time and slump margins are longer in bw compared to sc2 right now, if you didn't know
lol...you clearly don't watch BW at all. Bisu's been on top of his game for a while now
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On April 30 2011 17:13 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Come on, people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giantsThe only was to appropriately judge who is better would be to build a time machine, go back and get Boxer and Flash before they had ever played StarCraft and then drop them off back in 1998 and see who becomes better. The entire endeavor is completely pointless and no objective statements can possibly be made. At best, you get informed conjecture, but much more likely you will get nothing more than the mindless bleating of slobbering fanboys. That being said, my money is on time-traveling Boxer. That guy's brain just doesn't work like a regular person's. Flash might be better mechanically, but in a fresh, unexplored game setting, I think Boxer's innovation, creativity and friggin' magical mojo would come out on top.
SC2 is new, unfortunately Boxer is not on top.
In a dual interview with both Boxer and Savior, both stated that their game capabilities actually increased after their slump. It's just that they are unable to catch up to the new generation of Brood War players that they failed to restore their past glory.
- If you can go back to your prime do you think you can win?
▲ Boxer: That is just a thought. Its more of an excuse if I say stuff like that (laughs). If 2 players play extremely well the game can be the best game ever. However, era when I was prime and the era when Savior was prime is different in skill level. However if that does happen, I think it can be a very big issue and fun.
▲ Savior: When I lose, I'm not the type that says to myself "If I was at my prime he would've lost." I never thought anything like that. I don't like imagining stuff like "if this was 1 year ago." Its just pointless thinking.
- Still though, if this can happen what do you think will be the result?
▲ Boxer: I cant say, because I think the me right now is alot better than when I was at my prime long ago. Thats how much the skill average increased. Even though if I was at my prime I would lose.
▲ Savior: I believe the same. I think I'm better now than I was at my prime (LOL ANTI-SAVIOR FANBOYS ARE RIGHT). These days everyone is so good, they don't get shaken up mentally either. Aftergame interviews of winners all sound like they were mentally fine. Thats how much better players got.
Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=86325
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What? Now Bisu is top? No longer Flash? Or just top of his game...
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EPT
