EPTMC: "[Flash] would definitely do well in SC2" - Page 9
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Wolf
Korea (South)3290 Posts
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:45 Megaliskuu wrote: Looking at your post history, it seems you didn't watch or follow bw much, but its ok. The point being made here, is AT THE TIME THAT THEY SWITCHED OVER, not 2008 before Nada entered his eternal slump, MVP was better, I don't deny that Nada had a far more successful career, and even showed signs of life in 2010 with wins against illustrious players such as Hiya, Turn, and Hyvaa, but past accomplishments don't mean anything now, July's golden mouse didn't help him in the last 2 years of his bw career. Also poor MVP was a woongjin Terran, its not his fault he had it rough. No I didn't post on this board before the new game was released. You got me with your expert detective skills.  MVP showed his potential. Give this a rest. | ||
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Baarn
United States2702 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:57 Daozzt wrote: You linked one game that happened an eternity ago when Nada was still decent and MVP was a rookie. You sure proved everyone wrong. Might as well pull up that video of Boxer nuking Killer a year ago to make the claim that Boxer > modern A teamers. So far the MVP fan club has one round of 8 finish to it's credit and after that it's excuses. | ||
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Loodah
335 Posts
I've followed Broodwar for 7 years. When or IF flash moves to sc2, we will see if he has success. I don't think he will transition though. Those who say things like, "Have you seen him play?!?!" or "He has maphack game sense!!" - Yes I have seen him play, and game sense in SC1 is different from that of sc2. I'm not going to make outlandish statements like ZOMG FLASH WOULD DOMINATE GSL! No... that actually makes your opinion and argument completely irrelevant. Also, speaking to the SC1 elitism, you can obviously see it. Saying things like zomg ____(Insert top sc1 player) would obviously dominate gsl is basically you saying that SC1 players are just better at a game they don't play. This is a different game folks. Are there similarities? Yes. There are similarities between SC2 and any other economic RTS in existence. If you can't accept that it's a different game, and you can't learn to separate SC1 high level play from SC2 high level play, then you are making completely irrelevant statements. | ||
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Musou
1375 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:56 Baarn wrote: What are you smoking? Can I have some? Taking games off people in 1 tournament or two doesn't suddenly make you better than a legend. At least Nada won the last game he played. In wins alone Nada still has more games than MVP in his entire career. Nada won the last game he played in broodwar. MVP hasn't won 6 championships (yet). In a few years talk to me again about this. MVP showcased the potential Woojin saw and you see. That's it. You're confusing things. Is(Was) Nada more accomplished than MVP in BW? Absolutely. Was he better? At certain periods of time, yes. Was he better at the period right before they switched over? No. You can't say that because Nada had more wins in his lifetime career that he was a better player than MVP before they switched. You have to look at the period in which they got their accomplishments. I'm of the opinion that Nada at his peak was better than MVP ever was in SC2. However, in the year before SC2 came out. MVP was clearly the superior player. On April 30 2011 17:57 dukethegold wrote: MVP was the buttcrack joke of BW for almost his entire career. He was the soul of the infamous "Woongjin Terran". Impressively, right before he switched to SC2, he managed to pull a Hyuk and got to MSL round of 8, even taking a game off Flash before being completely eradicated in the next two games. I give credit where it is due. But let's be honest here. MVP's BW accomplishment is even less than Hyuk. Many many random players of variable reputation had achievements comparable or better than MVP. Agreed. MVP was pretty much a joke in BW. He has no accomplishments to speak of. However, skillwise he was good enough to be sent out on a regular basis, and as I said in my previous post, he took games off nearly all of the top vTers in the scene at the time. The only player I'd say was missing from his roster is JD. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On April 30 2011 17:20 L3g3nd_ wrote: i agree, i dont see how he can be the greatest after being knocked out of the ro32, he does well at times but has some huge flaws. You can be the best player and still be bad if u know what i mean. Being the best doesnt mean almost anything right now in SC2. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On April 30 2011 18:03 Loodah wrote: Also, speaking to the SC1 elitism, you can obviously see it. Saying things like zomg ____(Insert top sc1 player) would obviously dominate gsl is basically you saying that SC1 players are just better at a game they don't play. This is a different game folks. Are there similarities? Yes. There are similarities between SC2 and any other economic RTS in existence. If you can't accept that it's a different game, and you can't learn to separate SC1 high level play from SC2 high level play, then you are making completely irrelevant statements. They're not better at the game they don't play, but they would be better IF they played it. The accusation of elitism is really just a cheap defensive mechanism to discredit people who make a statement based on evidence and common sense. By evidence, I mean the skill and background of people who dominate SC2 currently and the reason they dominate. | ||
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Loodah
335 Posts
On April 30 2011 18:18 Talin wrote: They're not better at the game they don't play, but they would be better IF they played it. The accusation of elitism is really just a cheap defensive mechanism to discredit people who make a statement based on evidence and common sense. By evidence, I mean the skill and background of people who dominate SC2 currently and the reason they dominate. There's no "evidence" behind your statements. Players who have proven to be top sc1 players of all time have transitioned and found a measured level of success. No, the accusation of elitism is not a defense mechanism. It's like saying a tennis player would dominate racquetball "if they tried." Then you would be an elitist thinking your sport is just better or the athletes in the sport are just superior. It's such a ridiculous argument with so many logical fallacies that it's even difficult to respond to with one post. If they transitioned, I'm sure players like Flash and Jaedong would be fantastic players. This is because their understanding of economic RTS is almost unmatched. However, to say they would dominate is a statement that basically invalidates any factual argument because it's based on the fact that you're a fanboy, an elitist, etc. - It's an opinion - To claim that it's backed by "evidence" is actually absurd and beyond idiotic. The only true evidence would be for Flash to transfer over and do really well. This probably isn't going to happen, so stop claiming that your opinions are based on evidence or are factual statements, because they aren't. | ||
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esaul17
Canada547 Posts
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Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
Jaedong would probably have better macro than Idra does. Flash would also be a complete monster in TvZ. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On April 30 2011 18:45 Cloud9157 wrote: Honestly, I believe that BW pros will be able to transition into this game very well. Jaedong would probably have better macro than Idra does. Flash would also be a complete monster in TvZ. "probably"? okay, you can debate that their game sense would be off, but there is no "probably" when it comes to mechanics also you make it sound like idra has the best macro in sc2 | ||
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cocosoft
Sweden1068 Posts
On April 30 2011 10:51 MadCatZ wrote: quite debatable at this point. he's def great 1)but he has flaws in his gameplay 2)and his mental mindset (1+2 go together, compliments of each other. 2 effects 1) ... His achievements says the opposite. Stop doubting. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
On April 30 2011 18:03 Loodah wrote: There's no "evidence" behind your statements. Players who have proven to be top sc1 players of all time have transitioned and found a measured level of success. And yet people forget how old the legends really are. Like many people have said, MVP was clearly better than Nada at BW when they switched to SC2, because clearly athletes go past their prime (Boxer, etc.). There is evidence to support the fact that the most of the in-shape, younger ex BW pros have done well in SC2 - yes, even Nada, and to some extent Boxer. I wouldn't discount MC/MVP etc. as being bad at BW - that is a lie. Clearly they were good enough to be professionals. As for common sense, well it is common sense really. If someone has near perfect muta/mnm control/macro in BW, it also goes without saying that mechanically, SC2 will be a piece of cake. The skills involved are exactly the same, except of course the UI has made it far easier. | ||
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Bart Hurt
Singapore26 Posts
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
On April 30 2011 18:50 cocosoft wrote: ... His achievements says the opposite. Stop doubting. Yup, it's not even about beliefs. The term world's best player should not be subjective. It should be solely based on results and nothing else. And MC has had the most results especially in LAN settings where he has to perform on stage with a live audience. If there is a player who is undefeated in online tourneys and another player who is undefeated on stage, I would still consider the stage player to be the better player. | ||
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Talin
Montenegro10532 Posts
On April 30 2011 18:35 Loodah wrote: There's no "evidence" behind your statements. Players who have proven to be top sc1 players of all time have transitioned and found a measured level of success. "Of all time" is an irrelevant category, as many others have argued in this thread in the whole Nada vs MVP debate. The fact that Nada, who is ancient in BW, a university student and lives at home can still give most of the new kids a run for their money and is one of the most consistent Code S performers only indicates that the skill level carries over almost completely from BW. Only one mediocre BW player, one coach and a couple of solid fringe A/B teamers transitioned into SC2 and are now absolutely dominating the game (just to be clear, I'm talking about MVP, NesTea, MC and MKP). They didn't suddenly become top RTS players when they switched to SC2 nor did they discover some hidden talent they were never aware they had. Which is why they would get dominated by any of the current S/A Class BW progamers. | ||
GTR
51571 Posts
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dubRa
2165 Posts
Why is it that the ex-warcraft players are very good in Europe? Because it was the most active rts game in EU before star2. Those players transferred their skill. | ||
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
On April 30 2011 10:56 MadCatZ wrote: But in regards of the video i give it 2/5 Bad lighting and shaky camera All fixed by 1) tripod 2) Lights lol completely agree. another thing that starts to annoy me about sc2 interviews that noone really manages to take the awkwardness away. never do you see an interview where a player actually relaxes and says more then pre produced answers. | ||
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4405 Posts
Seriously, why would you like to "transition" to a worse game? Yes, SC2 has a lot of players, but SC:BW is elite. No one of those who watch both games closely has said that SC2 is better... Instead, they were going "ZOMG how intense, holy shit!!1" when switching from watching SC2 to BW once in a while. I'm getting angry at those talks sometimes, as they are proclaiming something that's not worth it at all. Ok, in 10 years SC2 can become better than broodwar, but why just give away those years. And especially because SC:BW evolution doesn't stop too...  I think the best way these games could co-exist is that BW would be considered elite and SC2 like a good way to start with RTS... Because this is the true sportive spirit, to aim always higher (not for just more money, but also for higher skill). BroodWar is more challenging, and will likely remain such. And holy shit it mustn't be forgotten (which I'm sometimes afraid of, as I see all screen filled with only SC2 events in the TL main :D ), because it's probably the best game in the fucking world. Really, too many people could whole-heartedly call it so.  So, to sum it up... well, I hope Flash and so on won't go to SC2. It's senseless. | ||
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