Patch 1.3.3 PTR - Page 220

On May 11 2011 01:41 holynorth wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks Idra and Machine are full of shit when they say the infester speed nerf is a buff?

Pretty much they are saying that since they have limited skill, they are benefited by the slower infesters. Isn't that bad? A perfect player should be able to manage the faster infesters and should want them as fast as possible.

On May 11 2011 01:41 holynorth wrote:
Am I the only one that thinks Idra and Machine are full of shit when they say the infester speed nerf is a buff?

Pretty much they are saying that since they have limited skill, they are benefited by the slower infesters. Isn't that bad? A perfect player should be able to manage the faster infesters and should want them as fast as possible.

On May 11 2011 01:40 understandable wrote:
i'm patched an everything but when i try to log in i get this error:

you are trying to login using a client version not recognized by the battle.net service.

anyone else gettin this?

On May 11 2011 01:51 yamato77 wrote:

Am I the only one that thinks you're full of shit when you say that IdrA and Machine have "limited skill"?

A perfect player doesn't exist. The infestor speed being decreased is a buff because they often ran ahead of units in engagements and died either before using any energy, or shortly thereafter. Having them slower allows the Zerg player more time to micro them back in such situations before they run headlong into deadly tank/colossus fire. Making them faster would just make this problem worse. Until someone comes around that has the APM to babysit every single spellcaster they have with perfect precision and keep them behind their army, it's a good thing that their speed is decreased.

On May 11 2011 01:54 Blasterion wrote:

I remember this from my wow days this means u are patched but blizz isn't u need to wait for bliss servers to patch

On May 11 2011 01:57 holynorth wrote:



Wait.. so you fanboy it up and call me full of shit for saying Idra and Machine have limited skill, then go on to say that there is no perfect skill. Do you even know what you are talking about or are you that blinded about your favorite players?

You missed my point, however. Reducing the game to account for the current level of skill is incredibly stupid. Players are supposed to move to the required skill level, the game should not be dumbed down to their level.

The reason infestors run out ahead and die is because they use one control group and attack-move. If they used two control groups, and shift click the fungal with retreating, they would never die. Look at broodwar, how often did you see Science Vessels (much faster than the terran army) running out ahead and dying? You didn't.

Using "a perfect player doesn't exist" to justify a nerf being a buff is such awful logic that it hurts just to read it. Players like Nestea have already become able to manage their infestors in a separate hotkey. I am sincerely sorry that Idra and Machine do not have the control to do so. But dumbing the game down to their level is quite pointless. Is Blizzard going to increase their speed in a few months when they gain the necessary control?

No, this is a nerf.

On May 11 2011 02:10 yamato77 wrote:

My initial comment wasn't "fanboyism", it was an effort to show you that calling someone "full of shit" just isn't a very nice thing to say. I hold no particular respect for IdrA or Machine, aside from the usual level of respect I have for someone that plays this game at such a high level. Calling me a fanboy doesn't help anything.

IdrA in particular is as close to perfect mechanically as almost any player, Korean or not. The fact that he likes that infestors don't have to be babysat as much anymore says something about how fast they were before. The speed being decreased is good for everyone, even players who already had the necessary control. You don't need infestors to be as fast as speedlings, you just need them relatively close to your army. The speed will never be increased, because it won't help them be any better.

And actually, Science Vessels did die ahead of the army. But that's a completely different situation altogether in that the typical BW Terran army had MnM + Tanks on the ground, with Vessels being the only air. Obviously, Vessels can't get trapped on the front lines like the ground-based infestor can, because there isn't a wall of speedlings/roaches behind them.

Besides, why else would the speed be changed? If infestors were seen as too strong by Blizzard, wouldn't they just tweak Fungal again instead of making them slower? After all, it is that spell that Terran players complain about. I never see comments like, "Damn, I wish that Infestor was .25 slower." No, they don't like how fast their MM dies. However, an observable issue with the infestor that has been commented on many times was that they run ahead of the Zerg army and die, which is now less of an issue.

On May 11 2011 02:16 holynorth wrote:



You ask why would Blizzard nerf their speed instead of fungal, but why would they buff the infesters? People have done nothing but complain about them. There is no reason for a buff.

And your statement about buffing their speed having no effect is wrong. The faster the infester the better. Under some odd circumstance having a faster infester will come in use. Therefore, a faster infester is always better. Never will having a slower infester be better unless your skill is limited.

That is my point. Therefore, this is a nerf. In no way can you look at this as a buff unless are you a flawed player unable to manage the speed.

On May 11 2011 02:36 yamato77 wrote:

So you'd give players more to do in managing their army in engagements just to give someone a hypothetical advantage in areas other than large army clashes, where the infestor is actually designed to be effective? Look at Fungal. It's range 7. Look at Neural. It's range 9. Obviously, the infestor is supposed to be behind the Zerg ground army (One unit with range over 4) and cast spells there. This change helps that become more of a reality. It's a buff.

You argue that a perfect player would want a faster infestor. Why? What situation would it need to be faster than the army, if it is casting from behind? To catch dropships? Obviously Blizzard doesn't care, becuase the Fungal stun duration decrease cut that aspect out. To run away from things? The still-present stun definitely gives the infestor enough time to get away. I see little reason outside of hypothetical situations where being faster is good. However, being slower helps the infestor live.

Also relevant is a discussion of APM. IdrA has ~200 SC2 APM, which is over ~300 actual APM. If he has problems babysitting his infestors in engagements, then it certainly doesn't make too much sense to say that someone has to be limited in skill to like them being slower. I'd say he's one of the fastest foreign players, if not the fastest. Obviously, there is a limit to how much someone can do at a given point in time, and cutting out some of those actions that aren't completely necessary isn't bad.

It's the same argument BW players made against MBS and automine; yes, mechanics can separate players in skill, but lowering ridiculous mechanical demands to make a game more user-friendly is a good thing in general. It lets people actually play the game instead of just clicking and typing. If someone who presses a button more than 5 times a second is allowed to do more than independently control infestors while they are attempting to stage a 2-pronged flank on a marine-tank position, I say it's good. More APM can be devoted into other areas that make or break the engagement instead of worrying about whether the infestors run in too fast and die.

On May 11 2011 02:47 holynorth wrote:



Stop creating an argument that I'm not arguing for. I simply said this was a nerf and explained why. You acknowledged that it was a nerf but went on to say that it was deserved in the same way MBS and automine are. I don't care about that. It is a nerf. I am done. Thank you.

On May 11 2011 02:47 holynorth wrote:



Stop creating an argument that I'm not arguing for. I simply said this was a nerf and explained why. You acknowledged that it was a nerf but went on to say that it was deserved in the same way MBS and automine are. I don't care about that. It is a nerf. I am done. Thank you.

On May 11 2011 02:47 holynorth wrote:



Stop creating an argument that I'm not arguing for. I simply said this was a nerf and explained why. You acknowledged that it was a nerf but went on to say that it was deserved in the same way MBS and automine are. I don't care about that. It is a nerf. I am done. Thank you.