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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
wow, thors finally started getting use and so blizzard had them declawed at the animal shelter... wtf... i guess the hammer goes back in the trash can now... lets break out the dusty marauders and see if we cant get them to fit into the square TvP hole 
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people think this is a good change? thors will never ever be used in TvP again because they get countered hard by hts now which are on warp gate
I can count the amount of times mech builds have beaten protoss in tournaments on 1 hand, and they were not becoming popular in the least bit
thorzain himself used it only once in a bo5 and if there was no "answer" then I would assume the person who basically pioneered the build in TvP would use it every game
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On May 04 2011 13:19 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:17 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 13:10 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:08 kodas wrote:On May 04 2011 13:06 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:00 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 12:52 travis wrote:
lol i love the incredibly ridiculous complaints about thors
guys, it was massive bullshit that they didn't have energy in the first place. thors had no protoss counter. no counter. do you understand that?
you guys who say that it sucks in tvp don't know anything. just because bio is extremely common doesn't mean it sucks. it was actually insanely powerful, you just had to either be playing mech (which was very rare because it only works on certain maps and everyone already excels at bio style compared to it), or you had to be using a build completely based around it.
ppl don't realize how strong mech play actually is on a lot of maps because bio play was already strong enough to get the job done How do thors have no counter? 1) Mass chargelots > thors 2) Immortals > Thors (though nullified by strike cannons) 3) Void rays > Thors 4) Carriers > Thors this shows how much u know. the only one of those that actually counters thors is carriers, which are incredibly hard to get to and aren't that hard of a counter. void rays might be slightly ahead on cost effectiveness in small numbers vs small numbers, but in larger numbers thors absolutely decimate them. like, horribly. mass chargelots do not beat thors, especially not if there is tank support, (which there should be if you have mass chargelots). stalkers actually do better than chargelots do, but neither unit comes even close to countering thors. the fact that strike cannons nullified what was supposed to be the counter is pretty much the point your post wasn't remotely true. I'm sorry but tanks do really really terrible vs chargelots, the only thing can really counter them on factory tech is bf hellions. tanks behind thors are AMAZING vs chargelots. I play mech almost exclusively in TvP (just like I did in BW at B- level back when flash was popularizing double armory). I even wrote the TvP Art of Mech guide. I don't know how you think void rays are horrid against mech, as people mentioned previously, spread out your VRs. I just tested it in unit tester with even ups. Maybe if it were upgraded thors + ghost vs VRs, then Thors would be "OK" against VRs. If you actually let a terran just sit there and turtle up to mass thors without you getting 15 carriers or 25 void rays, then some thing is horribly wrong with your PvT. Usually Terran has a head start on Thor count along with marines. If you are making VRs, you aren't making col or immortals 
That's "biomech" then, I don't use bio in my TvP. So I wouldn't be able to provide much feedback on that (no pun intended).
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On May 04 2011 13:21 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:19 Antisocialmunky wrote:On May 04 2011 13:17 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 13:10 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:08 kodas wrote:On May 04 2011 13:06 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:00 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 12:52 travis wrote:
lol i love the incredibly ridiculous complaints about thors
guys, it was massive bullshit that they didn't have energy in the first place. thors had no protoss counter. no counter. do you understand that?
you guys who say that it sucks in tvp don't know anything. just because bio is extremely common doesn't mean it sucks. it was actually insanely powerful, you just had to either be playing mech (which was very rare because it only works on certain maps and everyone already excels at bio style compared to it), or you had to be using a build completely based around it.
ppl don't realize how strong mech play actually is on a lot of maps because bio play was already strong enough to get the job done How do thors have no counter? 1) Mass chargelots > thors 2) Immortals > Thors (though nullified by strike cannons) 3) Void rays > Thors 4) Carriers > Thors this shows how much u know. the only one of those that actually counters thors is carriers, which are incredibly hard to get to and aren't that hard of a counter. void rays might be slightly ahead on cost effectiveness in small numbers vs small numbers, but in larger numbers thors absolutely decimate them. like, horribly. mass chargelots do not beat thors, especially not if there is tank support, (which there should be if you have mass chargelots). stalkers actually do better than chargelots do, but neither unit comes even close to countering thors. the fact that strike cannons nullified what was supposed to be the counter is pretty much the point your post wasn't remotely true. I'm sorry but tanks do really really terrible vs chargelots, the only thing can really counter them on factory tech is bf hellions. tanks behind thors are AMAZING vs chargelots. I play mech almost exclusively in TvP (just like I did in BW at B- level back when flash was popularizing double armory). I even wrote the TvP Art of Mech guide. I don't know how you think void rays are horrid against mech, as people mentioned previously, spread out your VRs. I just tested it in unit tester with even ups. Maybe if it were upgraded thors + ghost vs VRs, then Thors would be "OK" against VRs. If you actually let a terran just sit there and turtle up to mass thors without you getting 15 carriers or 25 void rays, then some thing is horribly wrong with your PvT. Usually Terran has a head start on Thor count along with marines. If you are making VRs, you aren't making col or immortals That's "biomech" then, I don't use bio in my TvP. So I wouldn't be able to provide much feedback on that (no pun intended).
I'll EMP my Thors, your feedback is useless :D
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I like the balance changes with the WG nerf going to 20s but in return keeping zealot/sentry gateway time the same. I had a strong feeling they did not want to encourage 2 gateway rushes.
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Woo, massive archon buff. Awesome!
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If the Thor change goes through, can the energy bar be linked to the upgrade so we can not upgrade to not have to deal with Feedback?
Otherwise, it's just the same ridiculous situation with BC's where you have to keep EMP-ing your own units so they don't get instakilled by HT's.
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On May 04 2011 13:02 Telcontar wrote:
Ok, Thors might've been a little powerful without energy but to actually revert to how they were before? That makes them completely useless against P unless it's for rushes. That is preciously why Blizzard buffed them in the first place. At least try something in the middle like lowering the required energy for Strike Cannons to 100 energy.
This just perfectly epitomises how Blizzard's balancing policy revolves around killing off strategies before they've been fully explored because it's perceived to be a little too strong. Way to let the game evolve naturally guys.
its not a little too strong, its way too freaking strong.
if you go mass thors youre sure to have tons of marines, marines demolish carriers, voids, and immortals, three of the supposed counters to thors. the only thing left is mass chargelots and mass chargelots dont even work once you get enough of a ranged ball.
damnit in brood war the only counter to mass mutas for terran was valkyries and that was balanced because they were useless on the ground. now the terran counter for mass mutas does DAMN WELL against anything on ground. not only that but they have an ability to one hit colossus and immortals. the fact is that no energy for feedback makes thors broken as all hell.
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On May 04 2011 13:14 travis wrote:
people who say void rays are a counter to thors do not have real game experience where they try to fight a large amount of thors with void rays
I've actually had some 
Its true that Thors rip through stacked void rays once the numbers get up and the VR clump. But really once you are at that point were its gets difficult to use void rays without clumping (and if you take a little care that requires quite a few) we are definitely talking about a late game scenario in which case a carrier transition really wouldnt be all that difficult. After you get those the thors will auto target the interceptors doing pretty much nothing and giving your void rays time to un-clump.
Only looking at situations with clumped up air units is really a kinda biased few. If you take that as a requirement archos suddenly become the hard-counter to any build involving air units.
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Wow, never go Carriers. Ever. Terrans will have like 10 Vikings by the time you have more than 2 Carriers. Colossi is the counter to everything, including Thors.
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On May 04 2011 13:10 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:08 kodas wrote:On May 04 2011 13:06 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:00 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 12:52 travis wrote:
lol i love the incredibly ridiculous complaints about thors
guys, it was massive bullshit that they didn't have energy in the first place. thors had no protoss counter. no counter. do you understand that?
you guys who say that it sucks in tvp don't know anything. just because bio is extremely common doesn't mean it sucks. it was actually insanely powerful, you just had to either be playing mech (which was very rare because it only works on certain maps and everyone already excels at bio style compared to it), or you had to be using a build completely based around it.
ppl don't realize how strong mech play actually is on a lot of maps because bio play was already strong enough to get the job done How do thors have no counter? 1) Mass chargelots > thors 2) Immortals > Thors (though nullified by strike cannons) 3) Void rays > Thors 4) Carriers > Thors this shows how much u know. the only one of those that actually counters thors is carriers, which are incredibly hard to get to and aren't that hard of a counter. void rays might be slightly ahead on cost effectiveness in small numbers vs small numbers, but in larger numbers thors absolutely decimate them. like, horribly. mass chargelots do not beat thors, especially not if there is tank support, (which there should be if you have mass chargelots). stalkers actually do better than chargelots do, but neither unit comes even close to countering thors. the fact that strike cannons nullified what was supposed to be the counter is pretty much the point your post wasn't remotely true. I'm sorry but tanks do really really terrible vs chargelots, the only thing can really counter them on factory tech is bf hellions. tanks behind thors are AMAZING vs chargelots.
Just was in unit test map and in even supply pure chargelots, and I mean pure chargelots are still cost effective vs a thor tank comp with split tanks and thors in front, no to mention in all these fights I had all tanks sieged in a good position, not saying this is any kind of solid evidence, but it's a little better than just repeating than what I said before.
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Is it just me, or anyone else wants to see the lol of thor preparing to strike cannon and got feedback and stop with 150 hp lost?
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On May 04 2011 13:29 Cloak wrote:
Wow, never go Carriers. Ever. Terrans will have like 10 Vikings by the time you have more than 2 Carriers. Colossi is the counter to everything, including Thors.
not to mention that marines absolutely shred interceptors. the reason carriers were viable in bw was because terran had to go mech or else reavers and storm raped all bio.
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Re: the thor change - I would really have preferred immortals just get immunity to snares ( like the ultra) and have hardened shields defend against strike cannons. They really are the P unit that is supposed to counter thor anyway.
As it is I feel like Blizzard is just reducing the number of viable strategies/units in the matchup
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On May 04 2011 13:31 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:29 Cloak wrote:
Wow, never go Carriers. Ever. Terrans will have like 10 Vikings by the time you have more than 2 Carriers. Colossi is the counter to everything, including Thors. not to mention that marines absolutely shred interceptors. the reason carriers were viable in bw was because terran had to go mech or else reavers and storm raped all bio.
HT's counter marines and vikings well. Carrier/HT is a good response to thor/marine/viking - in fact, Carrier/HT is an extremely difficult unit composition to fight as Terran.
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On May 04 2011 13:19 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:17 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 13:10 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:08 kodas wrote:On May 04 2011 13:06 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:00 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 12:52 travis wrote:
lol i love the incredibly ridiculous complaints about thors
guys, it was massive bullshit that they didn't have energy in the first place. thors had no protoss counter. no counter. do you understand that?
you guys who say that it sucks in tvp don't know anything. just because bio is extremely common doesn't mean it sucks. it was actually insanely powerful, you just had to either be playing mech (which was very rare because it only works on certain maps and everyone already excels at bio style compared to it), or you had to be using a build completely based around it.
ppl don't realize how strong mech play actually is on a lot of maps because bio play was already strong enough to get the job done How do thors have no counter? 1) Mass chargelots > thors 2) Immortals > Thors (though nullified by strike cannons) 3) Void rays > Thors 4) Carriers > Thors this shows how much u know. the only one of those that actually counters thors is carriers, which are incredibly hard to get to and aren't that hard of a counter. void rays might be slightly ahead on cost effectiveness in small numbers vs small numbers, but in larger numbers thors absolutely decimate them. like, horribly. mass chargelots do not beat thors, especially not if there is tank support, (which there should be if you have mass chargelots). stalkers actually do better than chargelots do, but neither unit comes even close to countering thors. the fact that strike cannons nullified what was supposed to be the counter is pretty much the point your post wasn't remotely true. I'm sorry but tanks do really really terrible vs chargelots, the only thing can really counter them on factory tech is bf hellions. tanks behind thors are AMAZING vs chargelots. I play mech almost exclusively in TvP (just like I did in BW at B- level back when flash was popularizing double armory). I even wrote the TvP Art of Mech guide. I don't know how you think void rays are horrid against mech, as people mentioned previously, spread out your VRs. I just tested it in unit tester with even ups. Maybe if it were upgraded thors + ghost vs VRs, then Thors would be "OK" against VRs. If you actually let a terran just sit there and turtle up to mass thors without you getting 15 carriers or 25 void rays, then some thing is horribly wrong with your PvT. Usually Terran has a head start on Thor count along with marines. If you are making VRs, you aren't making col or immortals
Well just invest in colossi then they rip through marines and with a little control destroy thors as well, thanks to those beeing so incredibly slow.
Massing ghost alongside really was not an option so far because of the gas although i admit it would get a lot more easy with the ghost cost change
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I'll EMP my Thors, your feedback is useless :D
Omg! That would add a new depth for the game :D
But really guys, doing 150-200 damage against Thors with HTs isn't broken or anything (no sarcasm). It means they can't use psy storm much and the hellions can still tank a lot for tanks. And if the mech-er goes Thor tank or like Thor banshee, either way both sides will use lots of gas; thor hellion may be not much of a problem as the T though.
people who say void rays are a counter to thors do not have real game experience where they try to fight a large amount of thors with void rays
Or you're a bit snotty and haven't experienced such a situation.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On May 04 2011 13:28 Condor Hero wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:02 Telcontar wrote:
Ok, Thors might've been a little powerful without energy but to actually revert to how they were before? That makes them completely useless against P unless it's for rushes. That is preciously why Blizzard buffed them in the first place. At least try something in the middle like lowering the required energy for Strike Cannons to 100 energy.
This just perfectly epitomises how Blizzard's balancing policy revolves around killing off strategies before they've been fully explored because it's perceived to be a little too strong. Way to let the game evolve naturally guys. its not a little too strong, its way too freaking strong. if you go mass thors youre sure to have tons of marines, marines demolish carriers, voids, and immortals, three of the supposed counters to thors. the only thing left is mass chargelots and mass chargelots dont even work once you get enough of a ranged ball. damnit in brood war the only counter to mass mutas for terran was valkyries and that was balanced because they were useless on the ground. now the terran counter for mass mutas does DAMN WELL against anything on ground. not only that but they have an ability to one hit colossus and immortals. the fact is that no energy for feedback makes thors broken as all hell.
You're theorycrafting a little too much there. If a terran goes 3 fact thors off of 2 bases, he can't get many marines out. You stay on that initial one barracks even when you move out to take your 3rd so I don't know where this 'you've tons of marines and they counter voids, carriers and immortals' is coming from. He certainly won't have stim/combat shields or any infantry upgrades so there is nothing to worry about unless the game goes on much longer and he switches back to mass bio. If you don't believe me, just go back and rewatch Thorzains games against Tyler and MC and see how many marines he could pump out. You'd be surprised at the number.
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On May 04 2011 13:11 Azarkon wrote:
I think Protoss got a small buff vs. Zerg late-game due to the Archon change. Yeah, Archons aren't made much against Zerg and being massive changes little in that regard, but Range 2->3 can only make Archons better against whatever Zerg is throwing out late-game.
Against Terran, the ghost change makes it iffy to make a call right now. As it is I think Protoss gained a lot via unslowable range 3 Archons, and the Thor nerf takes away one powerful strategy from the Terran arsenal. But the ghost change is quite massive as well, as EMPs swing battles.
It's going to be a micro-intensive MU if these changes go through.
Actually increasing Archon range 2 to 3 is really huge.
+ Mutalisk has range of 3, so now beside mass stalkers, Protoss has another units that can counter muta hard.
+ Baneling exploded range is 2.2, so with range 3, the Archon can 1 SHOT the banelings and its surround without taking any damage.
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I really like the archon range upgrade. I have felt they needed that since beta. Glad to see Blizz is trying it out. Chargelot/archon is looking better and better in pvp.
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EPT
