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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 04 2011 13:08 kodas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:06 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:00 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 12:52 travis wrote:
lol i love the incredibly ridiculous complaints about thors
guys, it was massive bullshit that they didn't have energy in the first place. thors had no protoss counter. no counter. do you understand that?
you guys who say that it sucks in tvp don't know anything. just because bio is extremely common doesn't mean it sucks. it was actually insanely powerful, you just had to either be playing mech (which was very rare because it only works on certain maps and everyone already excels at bio style compared to it), or you had to be using a build completely based around it.
ppl don't realize how strong mech play actually is on a lot of maps because bio play was already strong enough to get the job done How do thors have no counter? 1) Mass chargelots > thors 2) Immortals > Thors (though nullified by strike cannons) 3) Void rays > Thors 4) Carriers > Thors this shows how much u know. the only one of those that actually counters thors is carriers, which are incredibly hard to get to and aren't that hard of a counter. void rays might be slightly ahead on cost effectiveness in small numbers vs small numbers, but in larger numbers thors absolutely decimate them. like, horribly. mass chargelots do not beat thors, especially not if there is tank support, (which there should be if you have mass chargelots). stalkers actually do better than chargelots do, but neither unit comes even close to countering thors. the fact that strike cannons nullified what was supposed to be the counter is pretty much the point your post wasn't remotely true. I'm sorry but tanks do really really terrible vs chargelots, the only thing can really counter them on factory tech is bf hellions.
tanks behind thors are AMAZING vs chargelots.
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On May 04 2011 13:09 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:04 link0 wrote:On May 04 2011 12:58 Antisocialmunky wrote:On May 04 2011 12:57 link0 wrote:
Thor change is HORRIBLE. If you think Thorzain's build is easy to pull off in T v P, you are horribly mistaken. Thors are weak against so many things besides just HTs.
It seems that blizz wants to force T v P to be pure bio + vikings. No, on the bigger maps, you can do a bio->Thor transition on 3 base and get an unbeatable 200/200 army that is mostly Thors. Unbeatable by a headless chicken? Thors are hard countered by VRs because they auto target armored air units (and dealing 1/20th of their ground dps). what are u talking about? 8 thors or w/e will kill a clump of void rays in one shot.
Oh so they need to just not clump? Is that too much to ask?
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United States15275 Posts
I don't like the Thor change. Making the Thor into a pseudo-spellcaster with one ability that uses 75% of its possible mana? Thor builds in TvP were barely becoming viable in high-level play, and we hadn't seen if they had legitimate counters.
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I think Protoss got a small buff vs. Zerg late-game due to the Archon change. Yeah, Archons aren't made much against Zerg and being massive changes little in that regard, but Range 2->3 can only make Archons better against whatever Zerg is throwing out late-game.
Against Terran, the ghost change makes it iffy to make a call right now. As it is I think Protoss gained a lot via unslowable range 3 Archons, and the Thor nerf takes away one powerful strategy from the Terran arsenal. But the ghost change is quite massive as well, as EMPs swing battles.
It's going to be a micro-intensive MU if these changes go through.
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On May 04 2011 13:10 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:08 kodas wrote:On May 04 2011 13:06 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:00 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 12:52 travis wrote:
lol i love the incredibly ridiculous complaints about thors
guys, it was massive bullshit that they didn't have energy in the first place. thors had no protoss counter. no counter. do you understand that?
you guys who say that it sucks in tvp don't know anything. just because bio is extremely common doesn't mean it sucks. it was actually insanely powerful, you just had to either be playing mech (which was very rare because it only works on certain maps and everyone already excels at bio style compared to it), or you had to be using a build completely based around it.
ppl don't realize how strong mech play actually is on a lot of maps because bio play was already strong enough to get the job done How do thors have no counter? 1) Mass chargelots > thors 2) Immortals > Thors (though nullified by strike cannons) 3) Void rays > Thors 4) Carriers > Thors this shows how much u know. the only one of those that actually counters thors is carriers, which are incredibly hard to get to and aren't that hard of a counter. void rays might be slightly ahead on cost effectiveness in small numbers vs small numbers, but in larger numbers thors absolutely decimate them. like, horribly. mass chargelots do not beat thors, especially not if there is tank support, (which there should be if you have mass chargelots). stalkers actually do better than chargelots do, but neither unit comes even close to countering thors. the fact that strike cannons nullified what was supposed to be the counter is pretty much the point your post wasn't remotely true. I'm sorry but tanks do really really terrible vs chargelots, the only thing can really counter them on factory tech is bf hellions. tanks behind thors are AMAZING vs chargelots.
Thors by themselves are amazing against any given gateway unit :D
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On May 04 2011 12:52 travis wrote:
lol i love the incredibly ridiculous complaints about thors
guys, it was massive bullshit that they didn't have energy in the first place. thors had no protoss counter. no counter. do you understand that?
you guys who say that it sucks in tvp don't know anything. just because bio is extremely common doesn't mean it sucks. it was actually insanely powerful, you just had to either be playing mech (which was very rare because it only works on certain maps and everyone already excels at bio style compared to it), or you had to be using a build completely based around it.
ppl don't realize how strong mech play actually is on a lot of maps because bio play was already strong enough to get the job done
ive had many luck with carriers vs thor .... cmon
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On May 04 2011 13:02 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:00 Blasterion wrote:On May 04 2011 12:57 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 12:55 Blasterion wrote:
It's all because of Thorazain, he beat MC with Thors, now Blizzard thinks Thors need a nerf hahahaha.
It's gonna be trouble some to same the least. Thors are slow already, This just kills Strike Cannon completely, No reason to use Strike Cannon against toss because of Spell interrupt.
Feedback will kick the casting process before a Shot can get off.
ghosts can actually emp enemy units too as much as he can feed back you, Protoss can make templars alot faster than you can make ghosts I would say feedback vs emp is pretty much an even battle. feedback slightly less energy to use, and instant. emp slightly longer range (but hard to use that range to advantage), aoe, and ghosts can cloak if they have enough energy. it's pretty fair really. as for protoss making templars "faster", what in the world is the justification for this statement? there is none. protoss can't make them faster in any sense. it all depends on what structures either player has built.
No way do you get temps faster than ghosts
Pylon > Gateway > Cycore > Citadel > Templar Archive
Supply Despot > Barracks > Tech Lab > Ghost Academy
huh?
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On May 04 2011 13:10 DooMDash wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:09 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:04 link0 wrote:On May 04 2011 12:58 Antisocialmunky wrote:On May 04 2011 12:57 link0 wrote:
Thor change is HORRIBLE. If you think Thorzain's build is easy to pull off in T v P, you are horribly mistaken. Thors are weak against so many things besides just HTs.
It seems that blizz wants to force T v P to be pure bio + vikings. No, on the bigger maps, you can do a bio->Thor transition on 3 base and get an unbeatable 200/200 army that is mostly Thors. Unbeatable by a headless chicken? Thors are hard countered by VRs because they auto target armored air units (and dealing 1/20th of their ground dps). what are u talking about? 8 thors or w/e will kill a clump of void rays in one shot. Oh so they need to just not clump? Is that too much to ask?
yes, lol
they are going to clump some when its a large amount of void rays vs a large amount of thors
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If strike cannons were the issue, change the CD on strike cannons and have it on CD when it spawns. If immortals were having problems with thors, letting hardened shields absorb the damage, cannons hit 6 times if I recall, would go a long way to fixing that.
If they want thors to be countered by templar, either emp will trivialize that or terran won't bother getting thors so its not a solution anyway. It also forces templar tech vs T regardless of bio or mech which is less interesting.
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On May 04 2011 13:06 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:00 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 12:52 travis wrote:
lol i love the incredibly ridiculous complaints about thors
guys, it was massive bullshit that they didn't have energy in the first place. thors had no protoss counter. no counter. do you understand that?
you guys who say that it sucks in tvp don't know anything. just because bio is extremely common doesn't mean it sucks. it was actually insanely powerful, you just had to either be playing mech (which was very rare because it only works on certain maps and everyone already excels at bio style compared to it), or you had to be using a build completely based around it.
ppl don't realize how strong mech play actually is on a lot of maps because bio play was already strong enough to get the job done How do thors have no counter? 1) Mass chargelots > thors 2) Immortals > Thors (though nullified by strike cannons) 3) Void rays > Thors 4) Carriers > Thors this shows how much u know. the only one of those that actually counters thors is carriers, which are incredibly hard to get to and aren't that hard of a counter. void rays might be slightly ahead on cost effectiveness in small numbers vs small numbers, but in larger numbers thors absolutely decimate them. like, horribly. mass chargelots do not beat thors, especially not if there is tank support, (which there should be if you have mass chargelots). stalkers actually do better than chargelots do, but neither unit comes even close to countering thors. the fact that strike cannons nullified what was supposed to be the counter is pretty much the point your post wasn't remotely true. Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:01 Blasterion wrote:On May 04 2011 12:58 Antisocialmunky wrote:On May 04 2011 12:57 link0 wrote:
Thor change is HORRIBLE. If you think Thorzain's build is easy to pull off in T v P, you are horribly mistaken. Thors are weak against so many things besides just HTs.
It seems that blizz wants to force T v P to be pure bio + vikings. No, on the bigger maps, you can do a bio->Thor transition on 3 base and get an unbeatable 200/200 army that is mostly Thors. Colossus counter Thors, they are faster and have longer range. it's like A marauder kiting a zealot collossus is actually decent vs thors, not a counter really but not a bad unit vs them. but it's a hard situation to get into and then u need to get stalker support to stop the vikings... thats complicated anyways but I will admit collossus do ok vs them
Actually his post is true.
VRs are the counter to thors because of the tanking (armored air gets auto-targed by Thor ai) they do, not because of the dps.
Zealots are far more cost effective vs thors than stalkers (although it's pretty even between zealots and thors).
Immortals are much cheap than thors, so you cannot strike cannon them all if they go mass immortal. Strike cannons take 6 seconds to execute, allowing the extra immortals to clean up.
And, did you just say that tanks behind thors counter chargelots? LOL, you know thanks deal 50 friendly damage to the thors while only dealing 35 damage to zealots right? What were you smoking?
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I think the Thor change is so incredibly stupid. I think there's something fundamentally wrong with giving a unit a mana bar without giving them spells. It's stupid that you need to EMP your own battlecruisers before battling protoss, it will be even worse with thors. And it makes the 250mm strike cannon even more useless than it already is, it's only worth it versus 3 units: other Thors, Collosus, and Immortals.
It's also going to be a huge nerf to mech PvT. Templar tech will now rip mech to shreds just as much as Robo and Stargate. Seige tanks and Thors are heavily immobile as it is, they are already vulnerable to warp prisims and dark templars. Now a single HT will be able to effectively deal 800 damage to four thors with feedback.
PvT is going to become even more bio/viking/ghost with upgrades which is very disappointing.
The infester change is stupid as well. If they want to nerf infestor speed they should nerf the burrow speed, not the overland speed. Zerg needs a good infestor so they have an alternative to banelings to kill bio.
Archon change I'm fine with as long as they don't do the Thor nerf. Because the Thor nerf is going to force even more bio, the range buff plus the massive change might make them too strong. People complain about EMP being OP, but you can't combine ghosts to make a 300 hp juggernaut whenever they run out of energy.
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On May 04 2011 13:02 Telcontar wrote:
Ok, Thors might've been a little powerful without energy but to actually revert to how they were before? That makes them completely useless against P unless it's for rushes. That is preciously why Blizzard buffed them in the first place. At least try something in the middle like lowering the required energy for Strike Cannons to 100 energy.
This just perfectly epitomises how Blizzard's balancing policy revolves around killing off strategies before they've been fully explored because it's perceived to be a little too strong. Way to let the game evolve naturally guys.
i'm not usually one to complain about patches but it's kinda lame when terran finally gets a nice timing attack vs protoss and it gets nerfed after a week or two and makes thors near useless after templar.
p.s. i agree!
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On May 04 2011 13:12 Juanald wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 12:52 travis wrote:
lol i love the incredibly ridiculous complaints about thors
guys, it was massive bullshit that they didn't have energy in the first place. thors had no protoss counter. no counter. do you understand that?
you guys who say that it sucks in tvp don't know anything. just because bio is extremely common doesn't mean it sucks. it was actually insanely powerful, you just had to either be playing mech (which was very rare because it only works on certain maps and everyone already excels at bio style compared to it), or you had to be using a build completely based around it.
ppl don't realize how strong mech play actually is on a lot of maps because bio play was already strong enough to get the job done ive had many luck with carriers vs thor .... cmon
already said I agreed that carrier is kind of a counter but it's not very realistic until very late in the game...
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people who say void rays are a counter to thors do not have real game experience where they try to fight a large amount of thors with void rays
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On May 04 2011 13:10 travis wrote:
tanks behind thors are AMAZING vs chargelots.
I guarantee you that if you replace those tanks with Marines, Hellions, Marauders, or Ghosts that those zealots will go down much, much faster.
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On May 04 2011 13:13 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:02 Telcontar wrote:
Ok, Thors might've been a little powerful without energy but to actually revert to how they were before? That makes them completely useless against P unless it's for rushes. That is preciously why Blizzard buffed them in the first place. At least try something in the middle like lowering the required energy for Strike Cannons to 100 energy.
This just perfectly epitomises how Blizzard's balancing policy revolves around killing off strategies before they've been fully explored because it's perceived to be a little too strong. Way to let the game evolve naturally guys. i'm not usually one to complain about patches but it's kinda lame when terran finally gets a nice timing attack vs protoss and it gets nerfed after a week or two and makes thors near useless after templar. p.s. i agree!
Its still worth going Ghost/Thor. Instead of getting a third fact on three base, you can just get a large amount of ghosts instead. EMP your Thors and then EMP the protoss army. 
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On May 04 2011 13:14 travis wrote:
people who say void rays are a counter to thors do not have real game experience where they try to fight a large amount of thors with void rays
Void rays are a good way to counter Thors early game. Late-game you want carriers. But the point is that there is a counter to Mass Thors, which can only hit you late-game. And it gives a reason to use Carriers. I think it was fine.
Now Terrans are basically going to go ghost every game and it'll be all about landing EMPs vs. getting Feedbacked. Bio simply cannot stand up against mass Chargelot Archon HT. They'll have to land EMPs or die.
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On May 04 2011 13:10 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:08 kodas wrote:On May 04 2011 13:06 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:00 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 12:52 travis wrote:
lol i love the incredibly ridiculous complaints about thors
guys, it was massive bullshit that they didn't have energy in the first place. thors had no protoss counter. no counter. do you understand that?
you guys who say that it sucks in tvp don't know anything. just because bio is extremely common doesn't mean it sucks. it was actually insanely powerful, you just had to either be playing mech (which was very rare because it only works on certain maps and everyone already excels at bio style compared to it), or you had to be using a build completely based around it.
ppl don't realize how strong mech play actually is on a lot of maps because bio play was already strong enough to get the job done How do thors have no counter? 1) Mass chargelots > thors 2) Immortals > Thors (though nullified by strike cannons) 3) Void rays > Thors 4) Carriers > Thors this shows how much u know. the only one of those that actually counters thors is carriers, which are incredibly hard to get to and aren't that hard of a counter. void rays might be slightly ahead on cost effectiveness in small numbers vs small numbers, but in larger numbers thors absolutely decimate them. like, horribly. mass chargelots do not beat thors, especially not if there is tank support, (which there should be if you have mass chargelots). stalkers actually do better than chargelots do, but neither unit comes even close to countering thors. the fact that strike cannons nullified what was supposed to be the counter is pretty much the point your post wasn't remotely true. I'm sorry but tanks do really really terrible vs chargelots, the only thing can really counter them on factory tech is bf hellions. tanks behind thors are AMAZING vs chargelots.
I play mech almost exclusively in TvP (just like I did in BW at B- level back when flash was popularizing double armory). I even wrote the TvP Art of Mech guide. I don't know how you think void rays are horrid against mech, as people mentioned previously, spread out your VRs. I just tested it in unit tester with even ups.
Maybe if it were upgraded thors + ghost vs VRs, then Thors would be "OK" against VRs. If you actually let a terran just sit there and turtle up to mass thors without you getting 15 carriers or 25 void rays, then some thing is horribly wrong with your PvT.
PS: 3 Base Carriers is completely doable against mech. 2-base might be risky as there aren't many cliffable maps.
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On May 04 2011 13:09 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:07 Falcor wrote:On May 04 2011 13:02 TheTenthDoc wrote:On May 04 2011 13:01 Falcor wrote:On May 04 2011 12:57 GwSC wrote:
The expensive, 90 hit point Infestor really needs to be even easier to kill?
Aaaalright then. Silly, did you forget ur playing zerg. We dont get buffed without facing a wave of nerfs. Well apparently IdrA and Machine are disagreeing with both of you. They both agree it's a semi-buff, if anything. They think it makes the infestors less likely to run way ahead of your army. who was letting their infestors run way ahead of their army... It means now when zergs poke in and out of battle infestors are more likely to get picked off and not the roaches who use to lag behind. Well, + Show Spoiler + did if you caught the GSL last night to extremely bad effects. I've seen it happen to Sheth, Catz, and plenty of extremely high level players. Oh, and IdrA and Machine seem to at least some of the time, judging by their statements.
Id still rather have a fast unit then a slow one. even if it takes more control to use. All these high level people were bitching that the skill ceiling was so low on sc2 compared to bw. But when a unit that takes some skill is made usefull, they have no problem with the skill ceiling made lower? Now that infestors are going to auto stay behind your roaches.
i actually liked being able to run ahead of my army fungal a group of m&m and run away before they could retaliate with the ones that werent. since they were faster then the m&m. and now it means zergs have to stay more bally since they cant out run the people chasing your high priced units.
But like i said with the warpgates ill have to wait and see to how it plays out. But blizzard needs to stop fiddling with shit until people have some real time to adapt to the new changes.
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On May 04 2011 13:17 Griffith` wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:10 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:08 kodas wrote:On May 04 2011 13:06 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:00 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 12:52 travis wrote:
lol i love the incredibly ridiculous complaints about thors
guys, it was massive bullshit that they didn't have energy in the first place. thors had no protoss counter. no counter. do you understand that?
you guys who say that it sucks in tvp don't know anything. just because bio is extremely common doesn't mean it sucks. it was actually insanely powerful, you just had to either be playing mech (which was very rare because it only works on certain maps and everyone already excels at bio style compared to it), or you had to be using a build completely based around it.
ppl don't realize how strong mech play actually is on a lot of maps because bio play was already strong enough to get the job done How do thors have no counter? 1) Mass chargelots > thors 2) Immortals > Thors (though nullified by strike cannons) 3) Void rays > Thors 4) Carriers > Thors this shows how much u know. the only one of those that actually counters thors is carriers, which are incredibly hard to get to and aren't that hard of a counter. void rays might be slightly ahead on cost effectiveness in small numbers vs small numbers, but in larger numbers thors absolutely decimate them. like, horribly. mass chargelots do not beat thors, especially not if there is tank support, (which there should be if you have mass chargelots). stalkers actually do better than chargelots do, but neither unit comes even close to countering thors. the fact that strike cannons nullified what was supposed to be the counter is pretty much the point your post wasn't remotely true. I'm sorry but tanks do really really terrible vs chargelots, the only thing can really counter them on factory tech is bf hellions. tanks behind thors are AMAZING vs chargelots. I play mech almost exclusively in TvP (just like I did in BW at B- level back when flash was popularizing double armory). I even wrote the TvP Art of Mech guide. I don't know how you think void rays are horrid against mech, as people mentioned previously, spread out your VRs. I just tested it in unit tester with even ups. Maybe if it were upgraded thors + ghost vs VRs, then Thors would be "OK" against VRs. If you actually let a terran just sit there and turtle up to mass thors without you getting 15 carriers or 25 void rays, then some thing is horribly wrong with your PvT.
Usually Terran has a head start on Thor count along with marines. If you are making VRs, you aren't making col or immortals 
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