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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On May 04 2011 13:36 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Omg! That would add a new depth for the game :D But really guys, doing 150-200 damage against Thors with HTs isn't broken or anything (no sarcasm). It means they can't use psy storm much and the hellions can still tank a lot for tanks. And if the mech-er goes Thor tank or like Thor banshee, either way both sides will use lots of gas; thor hellion may be not much of a problem as the T though. Show nested quote +people who say void rays are a counter to thors do not have real game experience where they try to fight a large amount of thors with void rays Or you're a bit snotty and haven't experienced such a situation.
No, it means Terran's most reliable units (units that you can look away from and be reasonable sure they are doing their job) shift back to Tanks, Banshees, medivac, and bio again with BCs and Thors removed from the picture. However, with a little bit of ghost micro, it doesn't matter.
I stilled used BCs back before the buff and you could mass BC a protoss with ghost EMP successfully. Now I can take my mass Thor builds, get my maxed 200/200 army slightly slower for a few ghosts to EMP my Thors and your immortals.
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On May 04 2011 13:36 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Omg! That would add a new depth for the game :D But really guys, doing 150-200 damage against Thors with HTs isn't broken or anything (no sarcasm). It means they can't use psy storm much and the hellions can still tank a lot for tanks. And if the mech-er goes Thor tank or like Thor banshee, either way both sides will use lots of gas; thor hellion may be not much of a problem as the T though. Show nested quote +people who say void rays are a counter to thors do not have real game experience where they try to fight a large amount of thors with void rays Or you're a bit snotty and haven't experienced such a situation.
I have a high master league Terran friend who also says that a sufficient amount of Thors owns around an equal amount of Voids. In fact, I was talking to him about Thor counters, and I suggested Voids, since it seemed intuitive (bonus damage against massive, don't take the bonus damage from Thor's air attack), but he told me that in his experience, many thors > many VRs.
/shrug
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Thors needed a change for PvT because protoss can only suicide drop and can't move high damage units around fast enough to counter attack.
Protoss needs something that can deal with them in a stand up fight.
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What the hell is with that Thor nerf? Was there a tournament where all the TvPs were won with heavy Thor-play that I missed? I remember Thorzaine winning TWO games in the TSL, but that's it. If it was so overpowered, wouldn't he have done it every game?
Protoss have chargelots, immortals, colossi, void rays, or carriers, making pure Thor play un-viable, you had to have a good unit mix to win.
Fuck. I hated bio in TvP.
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I think the fact that you need to EMP your own units or risk having them get a huge chunk of their hp taken off by feedback is just a poor design aside from the fact that it completely negates the terrans abilities.
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I like all of these changes. Instead of boosting all of the gateway times, boost only sentry because that's really the only key unit for early aggression survival.
I'm not too worried about infestor change...they were slow already...I just hope it isn't overkill.
3rr speedling all-in is now pretty much negated (never used it...when i did, I failed b/c I was just messing around with it lol), 4-gates are kinda negated now...and this sentry change opens up pvp even more.
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On May 04 2011 13:38 canikizu wrote:
+ Mutalisk has range of 3, so now beside mass stalkers, Protoss has another units that can counter muta hard.
Mutas didn't engage Archons at maximum range anyways, because that would clump them into splash - they get flown over and treated like weaker thors.
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Every time someone mentions carriers, it means we basically have to go another entire page of posts before someone can suggest a thor counter and be taken seriously.
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On May 04 2011 13:47 Resistentialism wrote:
Thors needed a change for PvT because protoss can only suicide drop and can't move high damage units around fast enough to counter attack.
Protoss needs something that can deal with them in a stand up fight.
I know deviating from standard anti-bio play even if the Terran is going mech isn't something Protoss is used to, but chargelot/void-ray is a wicked counter to Thor-play. Even immortals do well if you make them in equal cost, keeping in mind Thors cost double the gas and more minerals than an immortal. I'm sorry you couldn't make the same unit comp against Terran every game and still win, but fortunately it looks like Blizzard was concerned about that and is fixing it.
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On May 04 2011 13:51 Resistentialism wrote:
Every time someone mentions carriers, it means we basically have to go another entire page of posts before someone can suggest a thor counter and be taken seriously.
Agreed, there are plenty of good alternatives to carriers to counter Thors. Exploit their immobility (Colossi, drops), their massive-ness (voids), their armored status (immortals), and even their size (Chargelots).
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On May 04 2011 13:51 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:38 canikizu wrote:
+ Mutalisk has range of 3, so now beside mass stalkers, Protoss has another units that can counter muta hard. Mutas didn't engage Archons at maximum range anyways, because that would clump them into splash - they get flown over and treated like weaker thors.
I wouldn't call a unit that has higher damage vs bio, bigger splash radius, shorter attack cool down, and cost less a weaker thor.
Archons do have lower hp though (10 vs 400)
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Archon with massive armor and 3 range looks mad strong. Zealot/archon on wide area maps seems very viable now.
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still sound good to me. Can't wait for the patch!!
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On May 04 2011 14:04 LaiShin wrote:
Archon with massive armor and 3 range looks mad strong. Zealot/archon on wide area maps seems very viable now.
Don't worry. If protoss players construct some nice archon related strategies and they seem a little strong in approximately 2 tournament matches, you can bet your bum that blizzard will revert the changes. It's how they roll 
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Why didn't they increase a Thor splash radius to engage mass muta magicbox? That's interesting.
Instead they added energy...
Well, blizz as always, on their own way of balance 
Also, why Infestor speed is still way higher than HT? I can't figure it out though...
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I was looking forward to 2 gate coming back, but they reverted the Zealot changes. I will forever miss Beta 2 Gate Zealot pressure. *Shed's a Tear*
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On May 04 2011 14:09 Jimbo77 wrote:Why didn't they increase a Thor splash radius to engage mass muta magicbox? That's interesting. Instead they added energy... Well, blizz as always, on their own way of balance Also, why Infestor speed is still way higher than HT? I can't figure it out though...
For Thor vs Mutalisk, the aim of the Thor isn't to kill the Mutalisks - their dps is *way* too low for that. It's to prevent them from clumping in a large region which denies harassment and forces more favourable engagements. Adding the ability for Thors to just kill the Mutalisks would be way too powerful - 1 Thor could take out almost infinite Mutalisks.
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On May 04 2011 13:24 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 13:21 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 13:19 Antisocialmunky wrote:On May 04 2011 13:17 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 13:10 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:08 kodas wrote:On May 04 2011 13:06 travis wrote:On May 04 2011 13:00 Griffith` wrote:On May 04 2011 12:52 travis wrote:
lol i love the incredibly ridiculous complaints about thors
guys, it was massive bullshit that they didn't have energy in the first place. thors had no protoss counter. no counter. do you understand that?
you guys who say that it sucks in tvp don't know anything. just because bio is extremely common doesn't mean it sucks. it was actually insanely powerful, you just had to either be playing mech (which was very rare because it only works on certain maps and everyone already excels at bio style compared to it), or you had to be using a build completely based around it.
ppl don't realize how strong mech play actually is on a lot of maps because bio play was already strong enough to get the job done How do thors have no counter? 1) Mass chargelots > thors 2) Immortals > Thors (though nullified by strike cannons) 3) Void rays > Thors 4) Carriers > Thors this shows how much u know. the only one of those that actually counters thors is carriers, which are incredibly hard to get to and aren't that hard of a counter. void rays might be slightly ahead on cost effectiveness in small numbers vs small numbers, but in larger numbers thors absolutely decimate them. like, horribly. mass chargelots do not beat thors, especially not if there is tank support, (which there should be if you have mass chargelots). stalkers actually do better than chargelots do, but neither unit comes even close to countering thors. the fact that strike cannons nullified what was supposed to be the counter is pretty much the point your post wasn't remotely true. I'm sorry but tanks do really really terrible vs chargelots, the only thing can really counter them on factory tech is bf hellions. tanks behind thors are AMAZING vs chargelots. I play mech almost exclusively in TvP (just like I did in BW at B- level back when flash was popularizing double armory). I even wrote the TvP Art of Mech guide. I don't know how you think void rays are horrid against mech, as people mentioned previously, spread out your VRs. I just tested it in unit tester with even ups. Maybe if it were upgraded thors + ghost vs VRs, then Thors would be "OK" against VRs. If you actually let a terran just sit there and turtle up to mass thors without you getting 15 carriers or 25 void rays, then some thing is horribly wrong with your PvT. Usually Terran has a head start on Thor count along with marines. If you are making VRs, you aren't making col or immortals That's "biomech" then, I don't use bio in my TvP. So I wouldn't be able to provide much feedback on that (no pun intended). I'll EMP my Thors, your feedback is useless :D
Im think emping my HTs might be in your best interest :D
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So basically, the situation is this:
- race A figures out an awesome lategame deathball that cannot be beaten by race B
- race A uses this in a couple of games and every race B player flips the fuck out
- race B players say there's absolutely no counter to the deathball and that it needs to be nerfed into the ground, they go into great detail about how none of the supposed counters will ever work
- race A players say that the balance is fine and a solution will be figured out
Astute readers may notice that this scenario can apply to either ZvP or PvT. So if it's fine for Zerg to figure out how to beat void ray/collosus, why is it that the Protoss players can't just figure out how to beat thors? Allin him. Don't let him build up the deathball. Sacrifice void rays to keep the thor count down. Use something other than gateway/collosus. Use warp prisms moar. Archons are super imba against Terran now, they solve everything. Use carriers d00d.
That's why the thor nerf is retarded. Because Blizzard is, on one hand, allowing the game to grow and develop rather than just nerf-hammering something once players of race B declare it imbalanced, while on the other hand they instantly remove the TvP deathball before Protoss players have had any chance to learn how to counter it.
Basically, Protoss players are telling Zergs to learn how to deal with the Protoss deathball, so they have no right to complain about the Terran deathball when they've only had about two days to try to figure out counters to it, and Blizzard has absolutely no reason to remove a strategy before anyone's had a chance to figure it out.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On May 04 2011 14:19 Ezekyle wrote:
So basically, the situation is this:
- race A figures out an awesome lategame deathball that cannot be beaten by race B
- race A uses this in a couple of games and every race B player flips the fuck out
- race B players say there's absolutely no counter to the deathball and that it needs to be nerfed into the ground, they go into great detail about how none of the supposed counters will ever work
- race A players say that the balance is fine and a solution will be figured out
Astute readers may notice that this scenario can apply to either ZvP or PvT. So if it's fine for Zerg to figure out how to beat void ray/collosus, why is it that the Protoss players can't just figure out how to beat thors? Allin him. Don't let him build up the deathball. Sacrifice void rays to keep the thor count down. Use something other than gateway/collosus. Use warp prisms moar. Archons are super imba against Terran now, they solve everything. Use carriers d00d.
That's why the thor nerf is retarded. Because Blizzard is, on one hand, allowing the game to grow and develop rather than just nerf-hammering something once players of race B declare it imbalanced, while on the other hand they instantly remove the TvP deathball before Protoss players have had any chance to learn how to counter it.
Basically, Protoss players are telling Zergs to learn how to deal with the Protoss deathball, so they have no right to complain about the Terran deathball when they've only had about two days to try to figure out counters to it, and Blizzard has absolutely no reason to remove a strategy before anyone's had a chance to figure it out.
Well put and I completely agree. I still can't pry myself away from this thread just because of how mad I am at how Blizzard is even considering this. ARRRGGGGG.
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EPT
