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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
I'm really liking what Blizzard's doing with most of this. Yes, okay, I'm toss and a lot of these are buffs, etc etc.
But the archon changes are fantastic, it seems like there's a serious push to make them a useful unit and I love that. The thor thing is also amazing. Without KA and with energy-thors, HTs are now viable and useful against both mech and bio (as opposed to being utterly useless and crazily strong, respectively), and are - I'd say - a viable alternative to colossi again, which is pretty much all I care about.
The underlying ethos is what's important, and there's signs here that blizzard are trying to breed a network of counters and counter-counters rather than just nerf everything into equality/oblivion.
That said, I think 150 energy is a bit much. That makes it the most expensive ability in the game to my knowledge. I feel like 100 would be better; that would give thors two at full energy, and it would also let T benefit from having maxed thors standing around as anything other than feedback bait.
Not such a fan of the gateway reversion. Proxy 2gate was completely silly with lots all the way down at 33, but they need to come a little faster than current levels. A couple seconds on sentries isn't quite enough to counter the WG time.
Also lol at infestor nerf. Because clearly their tremendous speed was an issue.
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Terran please calm down. You can still utilize Strike Cannons. Thor is protected within a Medivac (especially one that has been EMPed)
Your Thor thats in your army can be EMPed and a couple non-EMP Thors can be ferried in Medivacs similar to how you protect Terran or Protoss caster units with their race specific transport.
TLO and other pro Terrans EMP their Battlecruisers and even non bio-Medivac drops to defend against any kind of Feedback play.
The Thor 250mm Cannon +Marine rush was too hard to stop as Protoss. I'm glad this change has been made.
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Oh come on, this Thor change isn't nearly the game breaker people are saying it is. Thors are still going to be very good vs Protoss. Especially since you should always be getting ghosts anyways and then ideally you can just emp the HTs before they feedback anything. Or emp the immortals if you can't hit the HT, or emp your own Thors! So many options if you have ghosts, which coincidentally just got buffed hugely! Or maybe this isn't a coincidence at all that you can easily make both at the same time now.
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On May 04 2011 12:13 Daralii wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 12:12 A Wet Shamwow wrote:
Sweet a new terran style gets used using thors! Blizz: nerf strike cannons, they should use more marauders! Just because there's a viable response doesn't mean it's suddenly unusable.
There were plenty of viable responses, they just weren't as direct. I feel that in order for Terran strategy to evolve beyond MMM something else needs to be as powerful. Its very disappointing that Blizzard decided to destroy a new Terran style before it gets off the ground.
The attitude blizzard has adopted toward balance is very troubling. It does not encourage innovation, instead it favors removing difficult elements, and implies as if the current way to play a match up is correct.
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They decreased the gaz ghost cost to make it viable with mech, so the nerf Thor make sens to me.
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On May 04 2011 12:33 Moja wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 12:31 Daralii wrote:On May 04 2011 12:30 Moja wrote:On May 04 2011 11:59 Daralii wrote:On May 04 2011 11:57 happyness wrote:
Blizz..... so indecisive
Am I missing something here? Are Thors really that bad for Protoss? Strike cannon thors with marines, hellions, or tanks supporting could effectively kill any ground army we had. If there were enough marines supporting, voids were terribly inefficient as well. Colossus with stalkers and chargelots could effectively kill any ground army we had. If there were enough pheonixes supporting, vikings were terribly inefficient as well. Strike cannon kills the colossi almost instantly, stimmed marines eat stalkers, and blue flame hellions kill zealots before they can do much of any damage. Except that colossus have way bigger range than strike cannon? And marines+hellions die to colossus before they can touch the stalkers...
Before a flame war begins, stop it.
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Uh, Have you played PvP?
If not i def think you should
I get what you're saying, but I'd rather lose in 10 minutes than go 20 minutes and lose because he had more one or two more infestors than me, nobody even gets upgrades anymore for the roaches, the just get melee attack armour and ranged attack to go Ultra/BL, if they have to.
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New PTR has removed the timing changes to Stalkers and Zealots, but stays the same for Sentries? This of course goes along with cutting 20 seconds off warpgate, from 180 to 160.
I actually like the old changes better, and I'm having trouble following Blizzard's logic. With the current version, 1.32, your first Gateway can squeeze out 3 units before warpgate finished. With the old PTR change (4/25) with the extra 40 seconds (26 chronoboosted) it took for warpgate and with 5 seconds saved from the first three units (15 seconds total), you could squeeze out another unit even if you chronoboosted warpgate. So basically at X point in the game you had nearly same number of production cycles with both versions, the only difference being that warpgates had one less cycle and gateways one more with the old PTR change (4/25).
With this PTR change (5/03), I don't think you can squeeze out another unit before warpgate finishes. So now it won't be equal in the end, you'll have a partially finished unit at the Gateway while Warpgate finishes. So at X point in the game you'll have ~1/2-3/4 less a production cycle than the current version 1.32 (depending on what units you make). So basically this patch delays the Protoss early game in general. 4 Gate in all matchups will be weaker slightly, 2 Gate recieves no buff, early pressure from Stalkers recieves no buff. Only Sentry defense receives a buff, which while welcome, is not at all an even trade for an extra 20 seconds of warpgate.
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No change to hydra? The most useless unit for its cost in the game. Now that spore crawlers are better you don't need hydras at all, just go mass roaches.
Patch seems ok, although I don't understand why they buff archons.
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On May 04 2011 12:10 Tempestk wrote:
One good thing about infestor changes is that for people who have giant 1 control group armies, the infestors are less likely to run out into battle before other units and die
Since 99% of people on these forums don't seem to realize, infestors are a huge fucking pain in the ass to micro. The problem is that you need to be more aggressive with infestors landing fungals than with templars dropping storms or ghosts landing emps. Combined with their faster movement speed and larger size it's really fucking hard. Because they have no attack you need to move command them up into range in order to land fungals in quick succession like you need in order to take down a deathball, but the ones that don't cast keep moving forward and you can't just hit hold position or stop because they don't all get into range at the same time and the ones that have energy but aren't in range cause a delay on the cast, which means it's harder to aim it. If infestors had a range 8 attack that did 1 or even 0 damage that could simply move them to the ideal range they would be absolutely fucking amazing. Their fast movement speed means that if you are even slightly out of time with your micro they run right into the deathball and with their large size if they are clumped up like the pathing in SC2 tends to cause they displace each other and the ones that are at the front of the group are way too close by the time the ones at the back are in range.
Fact is it's entirely untrue that all the pros put their infestors in the same control group as their main army. They do what they do because of all the factors mentioned above even on a separate control group, which they use anyway because they aren't complete fucking retards.
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On May 04 2011 12:36 BronzeKnee wrote: So basically this patch delays the Protoss early game in general. 4 Gate in all matchups will be weaker slightly, 2 Gate recieves no buff, early pressure from Stalkers recieves no buff. Only Sentry defense receives a buff, which while welcome, is not at all an even trade for an extra 20 seconds of warpgate.
And what's wrong with that? Less 4gate rushes = better game. It's not even as drastic as stim change in the last patch.
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On May 04 2011 12:34 Tump wrote:
Terran please calm down. You can still utilize Strike Cannons. Thor is protected within a Medivac (especially one that has been EMPed)
Your Thor thats in your army can be EMPed and a couple non-EMP Thors can be ferried in Medivacs similar to how you protect Terran or Protoss caster units with their race specific transport.
TLO and other pro Terrans EMP their Battlecruisers and even non bio-Medivac drops to defend against any kind of Feedback play.
The Thor 250mm Cannon +Marine rush was too hard to stop as Protoss. I'm glad this change has been made.
Trump I love you but there's a better way to do this. Increase armory build time. Have strike cannon start on cooldown once research completes. Both are preferable to this imo.
Stream more plz 
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MC lost to Thors - apparently they're OP.
This thor change is making me rage quite a bit. Thors no longer viable vs Toss.
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So basically this patch delays the Protoss early game in general. 4 Gate in all matchups will be weaker slightly, 2 Gate recieves no buff, early pressure from Stalkers recieves no buff. Only Sentry defense receives a buff, which while welcome, is not at all an even trade for an extra 20 seconds of warpgate.
It's not supposed to be an even trade; it's a balance fix. That means that Blizzard feels that it was not balanced before.
To put something back in balance, you have to add more weight to one side, or remove more weight from the other.
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Uhh I think 150 energy for Strike Cannons is kinda alot.
Whats with Blizzard flip flopping on this shit?
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Did they really have to write (cooldown removed) for the Strike Cannons? Really?
Edit: The archon buff probably makes them a lot better versus mutalisks.
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On May 04 2011 12:40 Moja wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 12:34 Tump wrote:
Terran please calm down. You can still utilize Strike Cannons. Thor is protected within a Medivac (especially one that has been EMPed)
Your Thor thats in your army can be EMPed and a couple non-EMP Thors can be ferried in Medivacs similar to how you protect Terran or Protoss caster units with their race specific transport.
TLO and other pro Terrans EMP their Battlecruisers and even non bio-Medivac drops to defend against any kind of Feedback play.
The Thor 250mm Cannon +Marine rush was too hard to stop as Protoss. I'm glad this change has been made. Trump I love you but there's a better way to do this. Increase armory build time. Have strike cannon start on cooldown once research completes. Both are preferable to this imo. Stream more plz
That's not Trump dude. Trump rarely posts on these forums. 
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On May 04 2011 12:47 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2011 12:40 Moja wrote:On May 04 2011 12:34 Tump wrote:
Terran please calm down. You can still utilize Strike Cannons. Thor is protected within a Medivac (especially one that has been EMPed)
Your Thor thats in your army can be EMPed and a couple non-EMP Thors can be ferried in Medivacs similar to how you protect Terran or Protoss caster units with their race specific transport.
TLO and other pro Terrans EMP their Battlecruisers and even non bio-Medivac drops to defend against any kind of Feedback play.
The Thor 250mm Cannon +Marine rush was too hard to stop as Protoss. I'm glad this change has been made. Trump I love you but there's a better way to do this. Increase armory build time. Have strike cannon start on cooldown once research completes. Both are preferable to this imo. Stream more plz That's not Trump dude. Trump rarely posts on these forums.
Well then I'm embarassed o_O. Statement still stands tho ^^
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Phew so glad they removed the zealot 5 seconds gone ^_^. Now i'm more excited for this patch then before :D
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On May 04 2011 12:42 NicolBolas wrote:
It's not supposed to be an even trade; it's a balance fix. That means that Blizzard feels that it was not balanced before.
To put something back in balance, you have to add more weight to one side, or remove more weight from the other.
The 4gate nerf was almost certainly to fix PvP. Both sides weigh the same.
The other point is that WG research time completely controls protoss early game. The power of it is the huge surge of units it gives if it's abused, but toss also needs that surge to hold pressure when using a standard build, as gateway units aren't in any way cost effective early game.
They need to give and take, because if they just take, it's a disproportionate nerf to every single protoss style of play. The fact that they reduced gateway units train times initially - and still have faster sentries - shows that blizzard understands that, even if I feel they've gone too far.
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EPT
