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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 27 2011 21:40 Gigaudas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 19:44 Skyze wrote:
anyone complaining about 200 P vs 200 Z armies.. Go play BW.
Try running a 200/200 zerg BW army into a 200/200 protoss BW army straight up.. See what happens.
Then remember how BW zerg is played. It actually involves expoing and harassing instead of sitting there and waiting for the protoss to get 200/200.
A Brood War Zerg can hold an expo against a superior Protoss army in mid-game thus allowing him to spread himself thin by expoing and harassing. There is no comparison. There is no equivalent to a spore crawler/sunken/lurker defense for a SC2 Zerg. You need your entire army to defend in SC2. Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 21:37 GinDo wrote:On April 27 2011 21:14 Bosu wrote:On April 27 2011 19:44 Skyze wrote:
anyone complaining about 200 P vs 200 Z armies.. Go play BW.
Try running a 200/200 zerg BW army into a 200/200 protoss BW army straight up.. See what happens.
Then remember how BW zerg is played. It actually involves expoing and harassing instead of sitting there and waiting for the protoss to get 200/200.
And then play SC2 like you played BW and realize that mass expanding has little effect on income due to increased AI of workers. Then realize that zergs should be exposing for the gas not the minerals. Since most Zergs usually hit 2k in minerals. Then realize what I stated above is true.
This, there are no cost effective way to defend yourself in SC2 as zerg since there are no defensive units at all in our arsenal.
But it's very hard for some to understand that it seems.
Still don't understand why all this turned into a ZvP balance thread, those thread are getting more and more boring, and I'm one of the few that actually were participating in the beginning. Things are getting old, let's just wait and see since no one is ready to make a move (zerg players refuse to say it's balance, protoss players refuse to say it's imbalance, blizzard refuse to patch and terran players ask for some attention  ).
LoL at Lalush and aquanda coming out to explain apollo how useless his comments are. If two zerg heroes are needed to take down one protoss nooblet, we not yet out of this shit.
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grrr, zerg still wont be able to break forcefields on ramp! I guess we're still quite not there with these balance patches.
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The pylon radius nerf also nerfs cannon rush, not sure it that has been pointed out yet
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On April 27 2011 21:54 aka_star wrote:
grrr, zerg still wont be able to break forcefields on ramp! I guess we're still quite not there with these balance patches.
If that is your measure of balance then we'll most likely never get there...
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4-5 spores and a queen with your army under brood lords are gonna be pretty sick lategame ZvT. You can fungal the Vikings and transfuse the Brood Lords while the spores clean up.
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On April 27 2011 22:00 diLLa wrote:
The pylon radius nerf also nerfs cannon rush, not sure it that has been pointed out yet
It has been pointed out, but no one can really read all 100 pages of this thread.
Combat-ex has been nerfed
Anyways, I don't think that was really the purpose of the nerf, since cannon rush isn't highly effective, it can work, but against a player that knows how to respond/scout it rarely wins the game.
IMO the purpose of the nerf was to make warping in above a forcefielded ramp in PvP a lot harder since the pylon has to be build closer, thus enabling it to be shot by stalkers.
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On April 27 2011 21:48 antilyon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 21:36 LoOny wrote:
Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5.
isn't this also a minor buff for the nydus worm? aren't there more blind spots in the protoss base since the lower radius comes along with a lesser range of sight? I think the range of sight didn't changed at all. but i would like to see the nydus being used more, most underused construction imo, even more than sensor tower.
It needs more health or armor and for that noise to go away. I don't get a ping on the map when toss puts down proxy pylon in my base, so why should the other races? A handful or probes/scvs being able to kill it is quite sad for a strcture as well.
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On April 27 2011 22:10 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 21:48 antilyon wrote:On April 27 2011 21:36 LoOny wrote:
Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5.
isn't this also a minor buff for the nydus worm? aren't there more blind spots in the protoss base since the lower radius comes along with a lesser range of sight? I think the range of sight didn't changed at all. but i would like to see the nydus being used more, most underused construction imo, even more than sensor tower. It needs more health or armor and for that noise to go away. I don't get a ping on the map when toss puts down proxy pylon in my base, so why should the other races? A handful or probes/scvs being able to kill it is quite sad for a strcture as well.
You also get a nuke sound and a red dot when a nuke goes off, imagine if you didnt. If you didnt know when i nydus went up it would probably be too good. I do agree that it should have more hp though.
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mhh as a zerg its kinda scary ... now the 4gate is barly delayed and the first round of units is in the protoss base anyway so not really a change in the timing .. i think .. maybe im wrong .. well
but im really scare of proxygates now .. since zealots just kill lings like flies you need to build at least 1 spinecrawler just in case
not that this timeing changes that much in the build .. it just changes the awareness of this build and i think it will be played like hell for the next 2 weeks
and forcefields still arent breakable and the best and cheepest cc in game yay^^
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On April 27 2011 22:16 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 22:10 Joementum wrote:On April 27 2011 21:48 antilyon wrote:On April 27 2011 21:36 LoOny wrote:
Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5.
isn't this also a minor buff for the nydus worm? aren't there more blind spots in the protoss base since the lower radius comes along with a lesser range of sight? I think the range of sight didn't changed at all. but i would like to see the nydus being used more, most underused construction imo, even more than sensor tower. It needs more health or armor and for that noise to go away. I don't get a ping on the map when toss puts down proxy pylon in my base, so why should the other races? A handful or probes/scvs being able to kill it is quite sad for a strcture as well. You also get a nuke sound and a red dot when a nuke goes off, imagine if you didnt. If you didnt know when i nydus went up it would probably be too good. I do agree that it should have more hp though.
But you can't see a nuke on the minimap. If you cover your base in pylons/supply depots then it shouldn't be too hard to spot the nydus. The only time it could be a problem is on huge maps since the minimap has to make everything smaller.
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On April 27 2011 22:22 Joementum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 22:16 Deadlyfish wrote:On April 27 2011 22:10 Joementum wrote:On April 27 2011 21:48 antilyon wrote:On April 27 2011 21:36 LoOny wrote:
Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5.
isn't this also a minor buff for the nydus worm? aren't there more blind spots in the protoss base since the lower radius comes along with a lesser range of sight? I think the range of sight didn't changed at all. but i would like to see the nydus being used more, most underused construction imo, even more than sensor tower. It needs more health or armor and for that noise to go away. I don't get a ping on the map when toss puts down proxy pylon in my base, so why should the other races? A handful or probes/scvs being able to kill it is quite sad for a strcture as well. You also get a nuke sound and a red dot when a nuke goes off, imagine if you didnt. If you didnt know when i nydus went up it would probably be too good. I do agree that it should have more hp though. But you can't see a nuke on the minimap. If you cover your base in pylons/supply depots then it shouldn't be too hard to spot the nydus. The only time it could be a problem is on huge maps since the minimap has to make everything smaller.
I don't get why people bring out the sound of the nydas. If you manage to finish a nydas worm, how does the sound matter except maybe forcing you to attack right away? The sound is not why you have a hard time getting it to finish. The problem is the hitpoints, making it far to easy to kill off, there I agree with you. Alternative you could make it cheaper so you can afford throwing out more of them or building two and multi-nydas.
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On April 27 2011 22:47 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 22:22 Joementum wrote:On April 27 2011 22:16 Deadlyfish wrote:On April 27 2011 22:10 Joementum wrote:On April 27 2011 21:48 antilyon wrote:On April 27 2011 21:36 LoOny wrote:
Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5.
isn't this also a minor buff for the nydus worm? aren't there more blind spots in the protoss base since the lower radius comes along with a lesser range of sight? I think the range of sight didn't changed at all. but i would like to see the nydus being used more, most underused construction imo, even more than sensor tower. It needs more health or armor and for that noise to go away. I don't get a ping on the map when toss puts down proxy pylon in my base, so why should the other races? A handful or probes/scvs being able to kill it is quite sad for a strcture as well. You also get a nuke sound and a red dot when a nuke goes off, imagine if you didnt. If you didnt know when i nydus went up it would probably be too good. I do agree that it should have more hp though. But you can't see a nuke on the minimap. If you cover your base in pylons/supply depots then it shouldn't be too hard to spot the nydus. The only time it could be a problem is on huge maps since the minimap has to make everything smaller. I don't get why people bring out the sound of the nydas. If you manage to finish a nydas worm, how does the sound matter except maybe forcing you to attack right away? The sound is not why you have a hard time getting it to finish. The problem is the hitpoints, making it far to easy to kill off. Alternative you could make it cheaper so you can afford throwing out more of them or building two and multi-nydas.
The sound matters because if you're trying to unload something like zerglings then it's going to take forever and the opponent will be engaging half your army since the other half is still in the nydus. If the opponent snipes the nydus then it's even worse since half your army will get obliterated. If i can get my entire army out, then the nydus would seem much more practical than it is now.
Edit - Yes i know nydus is supposed to be used as a hit and run tactic, but only a handful of units will not cause much damage if the opponent is competent and moves his workers. Sniping one or two tech structures is not worth the risk of losing resources on a nydus if it gets killed. You're also risking a portion of your army to snipe a tech building or two which might not be that smart either.
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I don't get why people bring out the sound of the nydas. If you manage to finish a nydas worm, how does the sound matter except maybe forcing you to attack right away. The problem is the hitpoints, making it far to easy to kill off. Alternative you could make it cheaper so you can afford throwing out more of them or building two and multi-nydas.
If Nydus weren't easy to kill off, it would be horribly, horribly broken, because the very existence of a Nydus would force the Zerg's opponent to keep a significant number of forces in every one of their bases to prevent offensive nydusing. Right now, if you react fast enough you can stop a Nydus with workers alone--which is intentional, because forcing, say, a Toss on 3 bases to keep a a gateway army at every base (or free supply and floating resources so he can warp in on command), simply because the Zerg built a Nydus and might decide to float an Ovie close enough to get vision on one of those bases...is ridiculous. For all that people bitch about the cost of Nydus, it if took a substantial force to kill one quickly, they would be ridiculously cost-effective because for the price of one Nydus you could force your opponent to "waste" a significant number of units by leaving them behind in their bases.
Wanting to Nydus into your opponent's base with ease is, frankly, just another kind of cheese. Its like wishing that Ghosts could trigger a Nuclear launch instantaneously.
The proper role of the Nydus isn't offense, its improved defense, mobility, and reinforcements. A Nydus halfway between bases can work exactly the way for Zerg that a mid-map Pylon works for Protoss--it cuts reinforcement times down by a ton. A strong Nydus network can make establishing map control a nightmare for Zerg's opponent, and means that if, say, a Terran mech player starts their "death push", Zerg can more easily manuever to hit the Terran's undefended base, while still having a way to pull back for defense if necessary.
It may, in fact, be true that Nydus is too expensive for what it gives you in that role--certainly, on most small maps, good creep spread can give you more than enough mobility anyway.
But if thats true, then make it cheaper. That keeps it as the exact same role, but just makes it more feasible to use.
Giving it more health, on the other hand? That changes its role dramatically, and turns it into a gamebreakingly good tool for offense.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
If you let a nydus get up you should be punished for letting it get up, instead a Protoss can easily spot where the nydus is due to the inherent sound mechanic and warp in 2-4 units easily and destroy the nydus before is able to do anything. The Nydus is not costeffective due to the aforementioned reason, to be honest the nydus needs to unload much MUCH quicker(E.G Nydus canal quick) to make it worth the gas investment and to punish those who don't pay attention for nydus worms.
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On April 27 2011 22:59 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +I don't get why people bring out the sound of the nydas. If you manage to finish a nydas worm, how does the sound matter except maybe forcing you to attack right away. The problem is the hitpoints, making it far to easy to kill off. Alternative you could make it cheaper so you can afford throwing out more of them or building two and multi-nydas. If Nydus weren't easy to kill off, it would be horribly, horribly broken, because the very existence of a Nydus would force the Zerg's opponent to keep a significant number of forces in every one of their bases to prevent offensive nydusing. Right now, if you react fast enough you can stop a Nydus with workers alone--which is intentional, because forcing, say, a Toss on 3 bases to keep a a gateway army at every base (or free supply and floating resources so he can warp in on command), simply because the Zerg built a Nydus and might decide to float an Ovie close enough to get vision on one of those bases...is ridiculous. For all that people bitch about the cost of Nydus, it if took a substantial force to kill one quickly, they would be ridiculously cost-effective because for the price of one Nydus you could force your opponent to "waste" a significant number of units by leaving them behind in their bases. Wanting to Nydus into your opponent's base with ease is, frankly, just another kind of cheese. Its like wishing that Ghosts could trigger a Nuclear launch instantaneously. The proper role of the Nydus isn't offense, its improved defense, mobility, and reinforcements. A Nydus halfway between bases can work exactly the way for Zerg that a mid-map Pylon works for Protoss--it cuts reinforcement times down by a ton. A strong Nydus network can make establishing map control a nightmare for Zerg's opponent, and means that if, say, a Terran mech player starts their "death push", Zerg can more easily manuever to hit the Terran's undefended base, while still having a way to pull back for defense if necessary.It may, in fact, be true that Nydus is too expensive for what it gives you in that role--certainly, on most small maps, good creep spread can give you more than enough mobility anyway. But if thats true, then make it cheaper. That keeps it as the exact same role, but just makes it more feasible to use. Giving it more health, on the other hand? That changes its role dramatically, and turns it into a gamebreakingly good tool for offense.
So you know better than any zerg how to use a nydus. Just because incontrol says so, it doesn't make it's true dude...
The fact is, in BW nydus were improving defense & mobility for two reasons :
1- NO CREEP SPREAD, so units were kinda slow, and nydus were fitting a role that creep spread does in SC2 which is increase mobility
2 - NO DEFENSIVE UNITS, in SC1 you could pass a defiler, one or two lurker, and a handful of ling through the nydus and you would defend a ramp for ever. In SC2, to defend anything you need your whole army, and you cannot pass your whole army through the nydus because it takes ages to unload.
That's for this very reasons that blizzard made the nydus a good offensive tool that can pop out everywhere on the map and not only on creep. Because without this, it is fucking useless dude.
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On April 27 2011 19:44 Skyze wrote:
anyone complaining about 200 P vs 200 Z armies.. Go play BW.
Try running a 200/200 zerg BW army into a 200/200 protoss BW army straight up.. See what happens.
Then remember how BW zerg is played. It actually involves expoing and harassing instead of sitting there and waiting for the protoss to get 200/200.
terrible comparison.
if P in bw would plan to turtle to 200/200 on 2 base then at that time the Z would have 6 running bases with full upgraded hivetech which is a unwinnable situation.
you cant expo like that in sc2 (see the mining thread). that situation instead of beeing a unwinnable one is a very good one. P just needs to win one fight which isnt the case in bw cause of many reasons (and really strong lurk/sunken/spore defense is one of them).
and be sure that even a "perfect" sc2 zerg army is way way less scary then the broodwar counterpart.think only of true cracklings +defilers.
the matchup and entire game mechanics changed so freakin much comparing them like that just makes no sense whatsoever.
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I remember the stimpack "nerf" and ppl were screaming it was too big and now it doesnt affect shit.
Same goes with Warpgate research time. They are juggling numbers but they still wont admit that balance is flawed on a much deeper level.
Useless Patch imo!
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On April 27 2011 23:15 AT_Tack wrote:
I remember the stimpack "nerf" and ppl were screaming it was too big and now it doesnt affect shit.
Same goes with Warpgate research time. They are juggling numbers but they still wont admit that balance is flawed on a much deeper level.
Useless Patch imo!
Yeah but that's "the stimpack nerf for pussies". It's like hello imma gonna nerf your warp gate, BUT PLEASE DON T WHINE I BUFF ALL YOUR UNITS PRODUCTION TIME!!!!
It's ridiculous and it will only buff protoss 2gate. Hello 2 gate pressure into expand.
On April 27 2011 23:10 BeMannerDuPenner wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 19:44 Skyze wrote:
anyone complaining about 200 P vs 200 Z armies.. Go play BW.
Try running a 200/200 zerg BW army into a 200/200 protoss BW army straight up.. See what happens.
Then remember how BW zerg is played. It actually involves expoing and harassing instead of sitting there and waiting for the protoss to get 200/200.
terrible comparison. if P in bw would plan to turtle to 200/200 on 2 base then at that time the Z would have 6 running bases with full upgraded hivetech which is a unwinnable situation. you cant expo like that in sc2 (see the mining thread). that situation instead of beeing a unwinnable one is a very good one. P just needs to win one fight which isnt the case in bw cause of many reasons (and really strong lurk/sunken/spore defense is one of them). and be sure that even a "perfect" sc2 zerg army is way way less scary then the broodwar counterpart.think only of true cracklings +defilers. the matchup and entire game mechanics changed so freakin much comparing them like that just makes no sense whatsoever.
True, SC2 & BW comparison are so wrong 80% of the time.
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On April 27 2011 23:15 AT_Tack wrote:
I remember the stimpack "nerf" and ppl were screaming it was too big and now it doesnt affect shit.
Same goes with Warpgate research time. They are juggling numbers but they still wont admit that balance is flawed on a much deeper level.
Useless Patch imo!
yeah we just saw like 10 TvX games right in the following weeks where T was pushed to death with like 10 seconds to stim left. the change had quite the effect on both Terrans timings and its power to defend vs lot of stuff and quite a few big tournament games were lost as a DIRECT result of it.
yes the game has way deeper flaws but if you dont see what huge effects some of those minor changes have then its your loss.
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EPT
