EPTPatch 1.3.3 PTR - Page 109
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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong. It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
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cubezi
Germany10 Posts
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On April 26 2011 02:44 Apolo wrote: Let's make this simple: ZvP Both armies 200/200. Clash happens. Zerg stays at 200/200 because he is already spamming szz, srr, sii, or whatever units he wants. Protoss is going down in supply and he can't take his eyes of the battle, specially the start, because all his expensive units from robo, stargate or HT with energy can't be replaced fast and he needs to micro to save the most of them he can. Let's assume neither gas or minerals are a problem. Both max upgraded. Let's say protoss remaxes again with only gate units. Mostly 3-3 blink stalkers with a few sentries and perhaps zealots. At the time. Zerg units are more than halfway done, if not done already. Having creep means they will reach the rally point very quickly. Roaches take 27s to pop out, zerglings 23s. If the clash takes 10s for the P to take his eyes off the battle, +10s to warp in all units. Roaches in 7s will be popping out. hydras in 12s. 3-3 Roaches will anihilante any ammount of stalkers, and with hydras it's a sad story. Unupgraded, P needs 30 stalkers to win 36 roaches. At 3-3 the P will need more stalkers than the Z roaches. (No the stalker doesn't counter roaches. Only time they do counter is early game with blink usage. The only 2 units cost effective vs roach (except air untis) are the zealot if the roach can't kite, and the immortal.)So, warp in gate units ftw right? Sure doesn't seem like it! Now tell me how is it that P is supposed to win with a remax of weaker units without support of units from robo or stargate. The Z should even have the advantage, because he can mass roach hydra and overrun P, since he lost the majority of the expensive untis, made to kill that army composition. If there's a timing to win, it's actually for zerg, not protoss. Still, i can go on and beat this down a bit more. Why is Zerg supposed to let Protoss spend thousands of minerals on extra gates for remax with weak units, do nothing and still expect to have a roll over? Actually P should be able to win, because he invested a lot and the Z did nothing. What was the Z doing while P spent all those minerals on gates? Injecting? The P invested a lot on those gates, and for a minute had no returns for the investment. It's like P making a ballsy third right after natural at 8 mins and Z simply letting him. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On April 27 2011 18:13 Apolo wrote: To some people complaining about WG being broken lategame, let me break it down for you and maybe it will enter your heads once for all: I think you forgetting simple thing that 200 toss army gonna win 200 zerg army, so toss has a lot of his units still left alive. Now tell me how is it that P is supposed to win with a remax of weaker units without support of units from robo or stargate. Who said toss does not reinforce with support units? If toss has 2 robos he gonna get 2 collo very fast after the battle, and 2 collos may be game changing. | ||
Krokodilen
Sweden11 Posts
On April 27 2011 18:40 Alpina wrote: I think you forgetting simple thing that 200 toss army gonna win 200 zerg army, so toss has a lot of his units still left alive. Who said toss does not reinforce with support units? If toss has 2 robos he gonna get 2 collo very fast after the battle, and 2 collos may be game changing. 1 colo takes almost 3 min ( 170sec without cb ) so i wouldnt call it fast | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On April 27 2011 18:49 Krokodilen wrote: 1 colo takes almost 3 min ( 170sec without cb ) so i wouldnt call it fast Liquipedia says 75 sec w/o chrono. With chrono it's less than minute. | ||
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DeLiriuMs
Bulgaria40 Posts
On April 27 2011 18:40 Alpina wrote: I think you forgetting simple thing that 200 toss army gonna win 200 zerg army, so toss has a lot of his units still left alive. . 200 zerg army with broodlords, corrupors, hydras and even ultras (or zerglings) would kill a 200 P death ball every time. Ad some infestors to control the collosus (if any) and it's gg. Protoss might be able to max out again, but only with GW units, which won't do squat againts the maxed out Z army without any backup from collosi, immortals or even void rays. | ||
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ALPINA
3791 Posts
On April 27 2011 18:56 DeLiriuMs wrote: 200 zerg army with broodlords, corrupors, hydras and even ultras (or zerglings) would kill a 200 P death ball every time. Ad some infestors to control the collosus (if any) and it's gg. Well if zerg has broods and ultras and infestors then toss for sure gonna have HTs, archons, chargelots, collo and/or voids and believe me he is going to crush through the zerg army. Ultras are not even going to touch toss army. I don't even remember seeing void/collo/HT/immortal/archon army loosing to anything from zerg lol | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
On April 27 2011 18:49 Krokodilen wrote: 1 colo takes almost 3 min ( 170sec without cb ) so i wouldnt call it fast http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Colossus Says it's 75 secods without chronoboost. With chronoboost it's 50 seconds. Roach is 27 seconds. Of course it does take longer than building a roach but where do you get your 3 minutes? :o | ||
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aquanda
United States477 Posts
On April 27 2011 18:13 Apolo wrote: To some people complaining about WG being broken lategame, let me break it down for you and maybe it will enter your heads once for all: On April 26 2011 02:44 Apolo wrote: Let's make this simple: ZvP Both armies 200/200. Clash happens. Zerg stays at 200/200 because he is already spamming szz, srr, sii, or whatever units he wants. Protoss is going down in supply and he can't take his eyes of the battle, specially the start, because all his expensive units from robo, stargate or HT with energy can't be replaced fast and he needs to micro to save the most of them he can. Let's assume neither gas or minerals are a problem. Both max upgraded. Let's say protoss remaxes again with only gate units. Mostly 3-3 blink stalkers with a few sentries and perhaps zealots. At the time. Zerg units are more than halfway done, if not done already. Having creep means they will reach the rally point very quickly. Roaches take 27s to pop out, zerglings 23s. If the clash takes 10s for the P to take his eyes off the battle, +10s to warp in all units. Roaches in 7s will be popping out. hydras in 12s. 3-3 Roaches will anihilante any ammount of stalkers, and with hydras it's a sad story. Unupgraded, P needs 30 stalkers to win 36 roaches. At 3-3 the P will need more stalkers than the Z roaches. (No the stalker doesn't counter roaches. Only time they do counter is early game with blink usage. The only 2 units cost effective vs roach (except air untis) are the zealot if the roach can't kite, and the immortal.)So, warp in gate units ftw right? Sure doesn't seem like it! Now tell me how is it that P is supposed to win with a remax of weaker units without support of units from robo or stargate. The Z should even have the advantage, because he can mass roach hydra and overrun P, since he lost the majority of the expensive untis, made to kill that army composition. If there's a timing to win, it's actually for zerg, not protoss. Still, i can go on and beat this down a bit more. Why is Zerg supposed to let Protoss spend thousands of minerals on extra gates for remax with weak units, do nothing and still expect to have a roll over? Actually P should be able to win, because he invested a lot and the Z did nothing. What was the Z doing while P spent all those minerals on gates? Injecting? The P invested a lot on those gates, and for a minute had no returns for the investment. It's like P making a ballsy third right after natural at 8 mins and Z simply letting him. It's that simple, obviously. I can't tell if you're trolling or just that ignorant. If PvZ was really this simple you would think we'd be seeing a lot less discussion of the matchup, don't you think? All this quote does it throw out some build times of units and claim that roaches counter stalkers etc etc. All of this is extremely narrow minded and pretty infuriating to read ("weaker units" for Protoss, is this a joke?). | ||
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Geiko
France1991 Posts
On April 27 2011 15:16 Severedevil wrote: This should be GREAT for timings in team games! Protoss has always had a clumsy window in which Gateways are lackluster and Warpgates aren't finished; now it's much smoother. Guess this is the end of all the awesome 2v2 Geiko strats we all came to know and love :'( | ||
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LaLuSh
Sweden2358 Posts
On April 27 2011 18:13 Apolo wrote: To some people complaining about WG being broken lategame, let me break it down for you and maybe it will enter your heads once for all: + Show Spoiler + On April 26 2011 02:44 Apolo wrote: Let's make this simple: ZvP Both armies 200/200. Clash happens. Zerg stays at 200/200 because he is already spamming szz, srr, sii, or whatever units he wants. Protoss is going down in supply and he can't take his eyes of the battle, specially the start, because all his expensive units from robo, stargate or HT with energy can't be replaced fast and he needs to micro to save the most of them he can. Let's assume neither gas or minerals are a problem. Both max upgraded. Let's say protoss remaxes again with only gate units. Mostly 3-3 blink stalkers with a few sentries and perhaps zealots. At the time. Zerg units are more than halfway done, if not done already. Having creep means they will reach the rally point very quickly. Roaches take 27s to pop out, zerglings 23s. If the clash takes 10s for the P to take his eyes off the battle, +10s to warp in all units. Roaches in 7s will be popping out. hydras in 12s. 3-3 Roaches will anihilante any ammount of stalkers, and with hydras it's a sad story. Unupgraded, P needs 30 stalkers to win 36 roaches. At 3-3 the P will need more stalkers than the Z roaches. (No the stalker doesn't counter roaches. Only time they do counter is early game with blink usage. The only 2 units cost effective vs roach (except air untis) are the zealot if the roach can't kite, and the immortal.)So, warp in gate units ftw right? Sure doesn't seem like it! Now tell me how is it that P is supposed to win with a remax of weaker units without support of units from robo or stargate. The Z should even have the advantage, because he can mass roach hydra and overrun P, since he lost the majority of the expensive untis, made to kill that army composition. If there's a timing to win, it's actually for zerg, not protoss. Still, i can go on and beat this down a bit more. Why is Zerg supposed to let Protoss spend thousands of minerals on extra gates for remax with weak units, do nothing and still expect to have a roll over? Actually P should be able to win, because he invested a lot and the Z did nothing. What was the Z doing while P spent all those minerals on gates? Injecting? The P invested a lot on those gates, and for a minute had no returns for the investment. It's like P making a ballsy third right after natural at 8 mins and Z simply letting him. What a crock of bullshit. You should stop spewing it and come out of the closet as the bronze leaguer you undoubtedly seem to be. I'm not even saying WGs are overpowered or imbalanced. Not at all involved in that discussion in this thread. Just saying you post a lot of bullshit. | ||
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Armsved
Denmark642 Posts
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ghostichou
France17 Posts
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insolentrus
Russian Federation304 Posts
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Bosu
United States3247 Posts
On April 27 2011 19:21 insolentrus wrote: to be fair warpgate opening time should be 5 seconds instead of 10 after patch Why would that be more fair. That would make protoss fucking ridiculous. | ||
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diLLa
Netherlands247 Posts
I wouldn't mind this actually, it's pretty easily scoutable now, and considering that you can't pylon warp in as easily anymore it should be easy enough to counter now. It also hits a little later. It's actually pretty good if 4gate is still possible, it just shouldn't dominate as much. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On April 27 2011 19:13 LaLuSh wrote: What a crock of bullshit. You should stop spewing it and come out of the closet as the bronze leaguer you undoubtedly seem to be. I'm not even saying WGs are overpowered or imbalanced. Not at all involved in that discussion in this thread. Just saying you post a lot of bullshit. Lalush you're lucky i don't want to lower the level of this forum, or i'd have a nice little chat with you. On the meanwhile, give my condolences to your parents and the plutonium supplements they take for having a social inept like yourself. I stand by what i said, and be assured, that just because you may spend more hours on this game, doesn't mean you're more intelligent, or that you know everything there is to know about it (ha! by far). Some humility, and quiça, intelligence would do you good. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Piski
Finland3461 Posts
On April 27 2011 19:20 ghostichou wrote: The point is. 200/200 toss army will roll on 200/200 zerg one but zerg have for sure lots of base and such a good re production force! Problem in many games we see (pro level) that protoss is left with a such a big army that the smaller reinforcments don't even make a dent in it. If it's 200/200 and protoss is left with 170 supply and zerg goes to 80 and then rebuilds 40-50 roaches at once. Which isn't likely in the first place unless they have been sitting for a long time. Mean time Protoss warps in 15 another stalkers. At that point most protoss have a huge gateway count. So that means it's another 200/200 against 160-180 army of Zerg. That just gets smashed again and Zerg don't have the money or the larvae to spawn another round. Even if I would be more generous and say that after first fight Protoss is at 120 and Zerg at 80. Then Zerg goes to 160 and Protoss goes to 150. That Protoss army still beats the Zerg army. Next round protoss warps in more untis but Zerg can't make those 50 roaches all the time :o At least that's how most zergs seem to lose against the deathball. Or they just hard counter Colossi with corrupters but then the giant stalker ball just kills them. Roaches are better than stalkers early game because you can make more of them. But in huge numbers stalkers do win, with blink it's not even funny. I play Random btw. | ||
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Zinthar
United States394 Posts
On April 27 2011 19:33 Apolo wrote: Lalush you're lucky i don't want to lower the level of this forum, or i'd have a nice little chat with you. On the meanwhile, give my condolences to your parents and the plutonium supplements they take for having a social inept like yourself. I stand by what i said, and be assured, that just because you may spend more hours on this game, doesn't mean you're more intelligent, or that you know everything there is to know about it (ha! by far). Some humility, and quiça, intelligence would do you good. I'm sorry, but you really are hopeless. The entirety of your analysis relies on the 200/200 battle coming out roughly even, which it won't if the protoss is competent. I really have to question whether you play at a high enough level to understand the game. Lalush was fully justified in making his comment, and he's actually, you know, like a high level player. Who are you? Why should we care what you have to say? I'm not arguing that the matchup is broken, or that P shouldn't necessarily have a major advantage at that point in the game. But your argument is beyond senseless. | ||
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