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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 27 2011 19:33 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 19:13 LaLuSh wrote:On April 27 2011 18:13 Apolo wrote:To some people complaining about WG being broken lategame, let me break it down for you and maybe it will enter your heads once for all: + Show Spoiler +On April 26 2011 02:44 Apolo wrote:
Let's make this simple:
ZvP
Both armies 200/200.
Clash happens. Zerg stays at 200/200 because he is already spamming szz, srr, sii, or whatever units he wants. Protoss is going down in supply and he can't take his eyes of the battle, specially the start, because all his expensive units from robo, stargate or HT with energy can't be replaced fast and he needs to micro to save the most of them he can.
Let's assume neither gas or minerals are a problem. Both max upgraded. Let's say protoss remaxes again with only gate units. Mostly 3-3 blink stalkers with a few sentries and perhaps zealots. At the time. Zerg units are more than halfway done, if not done already. Having creep means they will reach the rally point very quickly. Roaches take 27s to pop out, zerglings 23s. If the clash takes 10s for the P to take his eyes off the battle, +10s to warp in all units. Roaches in 7s will be popping out. hydras in 12s. 3-3 Roaches will anihilante any ammount of stalkers, and with hydras it's a sad story. Unupgraded, P needs 30 stalkers to win 36 roaches. At 3-3 the P will need more stalkers than the Z roaches. (No the stalker doesn't counter roaches. Only time they do counter is early game with blink usage. The only 2 units cost effective vs roach (except air untis) are the zealot if the roach can't kite, and the immortal.)So, warp in gate units ftw right? Sure doesn't seem like it! Now tell me how is it that P is supposed to win with a remax of weaker units without support of units from robo or stargate. The Z should even have the advantage, because he can mass roach hydra and overrun P, since he lost the majority of the expensive untis, made to kill that army composition.
If there's a timing to win, it's actually for zerg, not protoss.
Still, i can go on and beat this down a bit more. Why is Zerg supposed to let Protoss spend thousands of minerals on extra gates for remax with weak units, do nothing and still expect to have a roll over? Actually P should be able to win, because he invested a lot and the Z did nothing. What was the Z doing while P spent all those minerals on gates? Injecting? The P invested a lot on those gates, and for a minute had no returns for the investment. It's like P making a ballsy third right after natural at 8 mins and Z simply letting him.
What a crock of bullshit. You should stop spewing it and come out of the closet as the bronze leaguer you undoubtedly seem to be. I'm not even saying WGs are overpowered or imbalanced. Not at all involved in that discussion in this thread. Just saying you post a lot of bullshit. Lalush you're lucky i don't want to lower the level of this forum, or i'd have a nice little chat with you. On the meanwhile, give my condolences to your parents and the plutonium supplements they take for having a social inept like yourself. I stand by what i said, and be assured, that just because you may spend more hours on this game, doesn't mean you're more intelligent, or that you know everything there is to know about it (ha! by far). Some humility, and quiça, intelligence would do you good.
Haha i like this guy he has attitude!
... even though most of his points are hypothetical babbling.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
Sorry wrong thread. Can someone delete these?
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anyone complaining about 200 P vs 200 Z armies.. Go play BW.
Try running a 200/200 zerg BW army into a 200/200 protoss BW army straight up.. See what happens.
Then remember how BW zerg is played. It actually involves expoing and harassing instead of sitting there and waiting for the protoss to get 200/200.
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On April 27 2011 19:35 Piski wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 19:20 ghostichou wrote:
The point is. 200/200 toss army will roll on 200/200 zerg one but zerg have for sure lots of base and such a good re production force! Problem in many games we see (pro level) that protoss is left with a such a big army that the smaller reinforcments don't even make a dent in it. If it's 200/200 and protoss is left with 170 supply and zerg goes to 80 and then rebuilds 40-50 roaches at once. Which isn't likely in the first place unless they have been sitting for a long time. Mean time Protoss warps in 15 another stalkers. At that point most protoss have a huge gateway count. So that means it's another 200/200 against 160-180 army of Zerg. That just gets smashed again and Zerg don't have the money or the larvae to spawn another round. Even if I would be more generous and say that after first fight Protoss is at 120 and Zerg at 80. Then Zerg goes to 160 and Protoss goes to 150. That Protoss army still beats the Zerg army. Next round protoss warps in more untis but Zerg can't make those 50 roaches all the time :o At least that's how most zergs seem to lose against the deathball. Or they just hard counter Colossi with corrupters but then the giant stalker ball just kills them. Roaches are better than stalkers early game because you can make more of them. But in huge numbers stalkers do win, with blink it's not even funny. I play Random btw. take some lessons from this dood!!!!!!
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On April 27 2011 19:43 Qikz wrote:
Sorry wrong thread. Can someone delete these please?
Oh god damn I'm not doing this well today. Really sorry I'll stop trying to edit posts >_<
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I smell more stargate action as Protoss? 
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On April 27 2011 20:28 maRkySC2 wrote:I smell more stargate action as Protoss?
Hence the buffed spore crawler.
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On April 27 2011 19:44 Skyze wrote:
anyone complaining about 200 P vs 200 Z armies.. Go play BW.
Try running a 200/200 zerg BW army into a 200/200 protoss BW army straight up.. See what happens.
Then remember how BW zerg is played. It actually involves expoing and harassing instead of sitting there and waiting for the protoss to get 200/200.
You get ridiculously faster maxed on sc2 though, even on 2 bases!
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On April 27 2011 19:44 Skyze wrote:
anyone complaining about 200 P vs 200 Z armies.. Go play BW.
Try running a 200/200 zerg BW army into a 200/200 protoss BW army straight up.. See what happens.
Then remember how BW zerg is played. It actually involves expoing and harassing instead of sitting there and waiting for the protoss to get 200/200.
Much as I heart BW, in that game couldn't Zerg be behind in supply for most of the game and still be totally fine? And lurkers. Lol if you could play Zerg like in BW there wouldn't be this conversation.
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Although the warpgate change should make pvp more interesting, it makes me wonder why they are going just for research time and not cost.
The old research time, the current gateway build times, and a high research cost (200/200 , 300/300) could work well. This would make surviving the timing easier as it would have less units and come later.
In pvp it would also delay tech or leave the toss with a lot less units.
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On April 27 2011 19:44 Skyze wrote:
anyone complaining about 200 P vs 200 Z armies.. Go play BW.
Try running a 200/200 zerg BW army into a 200/200 protoss BW army straight up.. See what happens.
Then remember how BW zerg is played. It actually involves expoing and harassing instead of sitting there and waiting for the protoss to get 200/200.
And then play SC2 like you played BW and realize that mass expanding has little effect on income due to increased AI of workers.
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When does this patch go live?
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Can we stop with the 200/200 discussions? They are pure theorycraft situations.
For one, yes a zerg can reinforce quite rapidly, but in those few seconds that you are a protoss will do something with his army instead of waiting in the middle for you to come back. In that time he'll either start to take out expansions or ram into your main to take out the tech. Zerg has its units, now rushing towards their rally points. Those made in the bases being attacked are picked off.
A similar thing will happen to protoss expansions, I don't see the main being targeted because of forcefields.
And all what I just said is one of thousands of possibilities. It's quite pointless to discuss it.
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On April 27 2011 19:33 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 19:13 LaLuSh wrote:On April 27 2011 18:13 Apolo wrote:To some people complaining about WG being broken lategame, let me break it down for you and maybe it will enter your heads once for all: + Show Spoiler +On April 26 2011 02:44 Apolo wrote:
Let's make this simple:
ZvP
Both armies 200/200.
Clash happens. Zerg stays at 200/200 because he is already spamming szz, srr, sii, or whatever units he wants. Protoss is going down in supply and he can't take his eyes of the battle, specially the start, because all his expensive units from robo, stargate or HT with energy can't be replaced fast and he needs to micro to save the most of them he can.
Let's assume neither gas or minerals are a problem. Both max upgraded. Let's say protoss remaxes again with only gate units. Mostly 3-3 blink stalkers with a few sentries and perhaps zealots. At the time. Zerg units are more than halfway done, if not done already. Having creep means they will reach the rally point very quickly. Roaches take 27s to pop out, zerglings 23s. If the clash takes 10s for the P to take his eyes off the battle, +10s to warp in all units. Roaches in 7s will be popping out. hydras in 12s. 3-3 Roaches will anihilante any ammount of stalkers, and with hydras it's a sad story. Unupgraded, P needs 30 stalkers to win 36 roaches. At 3-3 the P will need more stalkers than the Z roaches. (No the stalker doesn't counter roaches. Only time they do counter is early game with blink usage. The only 2 units cost effective vs roach (except air untis) are the zealot if the roach can't kite, and the immortal.)So, warp in gate units ftw right? Sure doesn't seem like it! Now tell me how is it that P is supposed to win with a remax of weaker units without support of units from robo or stargate. The Z should even have the advantage, because he can mass roach hydra and overrun P, since he lost the majority of the expensive untis, made to kill that army composition.
If there's a timing to win, it's actually for zerg, not protoss.
Still, i can go on and beat this down a bit more. Why is Zerg supposed to let Protoss spend thousands of minerals on extra gates for remax with weak units, do nothing and still expect to have a roll over? Actually P should be able to win, because he invested a lot and the Z did nothing. What was the Z doing while P spent all those minerals on gates? Injecting? The P invested a lot on those gates, and for a minute had no returns for the investment. It's like P making a ballsy third right after natural at 8 mins and Z simply letting him.
What a crock of bullshit. You should stop spewing it and come out of the closet as the bronze leaguer you undoubtedly seem to be. I'm not even saying WGs are overpowered or imbalanced. Not at all involved in that discussion in this thread. Just saying you post a lot of bullshit. Lalush you're lucky i don't want to lower the level of this forum, or i'd have a nice little chat with you. On the meanwhile, give my condolences to your parents and the plutonium supplements they take for having a social inept like yourself. I stand by what i said, and be assured, that just because you may spend more hours on this game, doesn't mean you're more intelligent, or that you know everything there is to know about it (ha! by far). Some humility, and quiça, intelligence would do you good. User was temp banned for this post.
It mostly was bullshit though. Sure the way you said it sounds good, but that just isn't what happens in game. Yes zerg can "sit at 200" by spamming production, but that is mostly going to be supply of eggs. As far as the actual battle, the toss 130 supply army will be reduced to about 70 while the zerg army will be reduced to 0 or whatever he is able to run away with. Which is the main reason your post was a load of bullshit, you're acting like it's two armies starting reinforcement from scratch when realistically it's the zerg army starting from scratch while attempting to deal with the surviving ~70 supply of toss units already at the zerg doorstep PLUS the gateway reinforcements which will not take 10 seconds to warp in (as long as you have more than ~70 in game APM) and will usually be warped in somewhat nearby via a proxy pylon. There are of course quite a bit more complications than that but those are the main reasons why your post is bullshit, the game is already decided if it reaches that point, there is no timing window for zerg.
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Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5.
isn't this also a minor buff for the nydus worm?
aren't there more blind spots in the protoss base since the lower radius comes along with a lesser range of sight?
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On April 27 2011 21:14 Bosu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 19:44 Skyze wrote:
anyone complaining about 200 P vs 200 Z armies.. Go play BW.
Try running a 200/200 zerg BW army into a 200/200 protoss BW army straight up.. See what happens.
Then remember how BW zerg is played. It actually involves expoing and harassing instead of sitting there and waiting for the protoss to get 200/200.
And then play SC2 like you played BW and realize that mass expanding has little effect on income due to increased AI of workers.
Then realize that zergs should be exposing for the gas not the minerals. Since most Zergs usually hit 2k in minerals.
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On April 27 2011 19:44 Skyze wrote:
anyone complaining about 200 P vs 200 Z armies.. Go play BW.
Try running a 200/200 zerg BW army into a 200/200 protoss BW army straight up.. See what happens.
Then remember how BW zerg is played. It actually involves expoing and harassing instead of sitting there and waiting for the protoss to get 200/200.
A Brood War Zerg can hold an expo against a superior Protoss army in mid-game thus allowing him to spread himself thin by expoing and harassing.
There is no comparison. There is no equivalent to a spore/sunken/lurker defense for a SC2 Zerg. You need your entire army to defend in SC2.
On April 27 2011 21:37 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 21:14 Bosu wrote:On April 27 2011 19:44 Skyze wrote:
anyone complaining about 200 P vs 200 Z armies.. Go play BW.
Try running a 200/200 zerg BW army into a 200/200 protoss BW army straight up.. See what happens.
Then remember how BW zerg is played. It actually involves expoing and harassing instead of sitting there and waiting for the protoss to get 200/200.
And then play SC2 like you played BW and realize that mass expanding has little effect on income due to increased AI of workers. Then realize that zergs should be exposing for the gas not the minerals. Since most Zergs usually hit 2k in minerals.
Then realize what I stated above is true.
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On April 27 2011 21:36 LoOny wrote:isn't this also a minor buff for the nydus worm? aren't there more blind spots in the protoss base since the lower radius comes along with a lesser range of sight?
As far as I know the power radius isn't linked to the sight range. So in this respect the vision of the pylon should remain unchanged.
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On April 27 2011 21:36 LoOny wrote:isn't this also a minor buff for the nydus worm? aren't there more blind spots in the protoss base since the lower radius comes along with a lesser range of sight?
I think the range of sight didn't changed at all.
but i would like to see the nydus being used more, most underused construction imo, even more than sensor tower.
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EPT
