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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 27 2011 14:48 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 12:40 Dingobloo wrote:On April 27 2011 12:36 lambchops wrote:I don't see how everyone is talking about wg being broken late game. The fact that we can build 40 warpgates endgame doesn't mean a terran can't have 40 barracks by endgame. like kinetik_inferno said, if a zerg can stall a protoss for half a minute, they would have the hydra/roach pop needed to fight if off, likewise if the terran went 40 barracks to be on par with a protosses 40 gateways, they would just have to stall half a minute to have a sizeable army again. the only difference is that protoss units cost significantly more than terran/zerg units, so a 40wg pop would be more or less a one time thing before they run dry of resources, making the other like 30 warpgates useless. i don't see why people complain about the endgame 40 warpgates, they cost money to make, and if they reacted by building the same amount of production, they churn out the same amount of units. warp gates aren't 'fundamentally broken' what hasuobs demonstrated was just a new way to spend your resources and replenish your army far quicker in the endgame. any other race can do the same with more hatcheries or more barracks. + Show Spoiler +as for that tsl game against boxer, the reason hasuobs had the ability to make so many extra gateways by the end of the game was because he was just that far ahead, there is no protoss imba bullshit or anything, boxer was just further behind, i'm sure if he had the resources to do it, boxer would also make 24 barracks to churn out units simultaneously and quickly. This. Zerg is much better in this regard because you get something like 12 larvae per hatch whereas protoss it's 1 cooldown per 150 minerals. On top of that to be at full strength protoss gateway armies require sentries, sentries have energy, energy takes time to build thats equal to or greater than most build times, similar concept with high templar. The difference is that WGs produce then cooldown. Zerg/Terran have to train for 20-50 seconds then have travel time to get units grouped together. Protoss get to warp in instantly all at the nearest pylon significantly cutting down on the time it takes to reinforce. Either way I don't know if I'd say it's a big deal, but the 30-40 WGs and the orbital command economy replacement both kinda remind me of Ragnarok from Age of Mythology lol.
It is worth remembering that ALL races have their own unique end game tool which can be massed when resources are far from limited.
Terran has the mule, allowing for their mineral miners to not use supply, thereby allowing for a larger total army than other races.
Protoss has the warp gate, allowing for gateway tech units to be warped in to any pylon/warp field for rapid army replenishment.
Finally, Zerg has the nydus worm, which is used FAR less than the other two mechanics. This allows for massive amounts of ground reinforcements of ALL techs to be spewed near your main army; and in the same way that P and T must invest in OCs or warp gates, the Z must invest in numerous nydus networks for this to be effective (if combined with larva inject to actually produce reinforcements)
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On April 27 2011 13:12 Joedaddy wrote:
I do not think that PvP changes will change anything below tip top Masters/GM league. I just got through playing a lot of PvP with my friend (he's masters) on the PTR. I was able to win a huge majority of the games going 4 gate while he tried a multitude of builds and I am currently in Plat.
How can you say this the change about 4 warp gate won't change anything that early. People can't find a build already who will punish someone who go 4 gate. I took almost 1 year for player to find a way to survive a 4 gate in a PvP. And I don't want to be mean but he's master and you're only plat.
That's mean you still need to work on your mechanic. You can't already done all what can be done with the new patch
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On April 27 2011 14:56 JusAdT wrote:
so glad this will help stop the 4 gate spam in pvp =) but might screw up timings in team games
and the archon buff is quite nice
This should be GREAT for timings in team games! Protoss has always had a clumsy window in which Gateways are lackluster and Warpgates aren't finished; now it's much smoother.
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On April 27 2011 15:06 CortoMontez wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 14:48 Logo wrote:On April 27 2011 12:40 Dingobloo wrote:On April 27 2011 12:36 lambchops wrote:I don't see how everyone is talking about wg being broken late game. The fact that we can build 40 warpgates endgame doesn't mean a terran can't have 40 barracks by endgame. like kinetik_inferno said, if a zerg can stall a protoss for half a minute, they would have the hydra/roach pop needed to fight if off, likewise if the terran went 40 barracks to be on par with a protosses 40 gateways, they would just have to stall half a minute to have a sizeable army again. the only difference is that protoss units cost significantly more than terran/zerg units, so a 40wg pop would be more or less a one time thing before they run dry of resources, making the other like 30 warpgates useless. i don't see why people complain about the endgame 40 warpgates, they cost money to make, and if they reacted by building the same amount of production, they churn out the same amount of units. warp gates aren't 'fundamentally broken' what hasuobs demonstrated was just a new way to spend your resources and replenish your army far quicker in the endgame. any other race can do the same with more hatcheries or more barracks. + Show Spoiler +as for that tsl game against boxer, the reason hasuobs had the ability to make so many extra gateways by the end of the game was because he was just that far ahead, there is no protoss imba bullshit or anything, boxer was just further behind, i'm sure if he had the resources to do it, boxer would also make 24 barracks to churn out units simultaneously and quickly. This. Zerg is much better in this regard because you get something like 12 larvae per hatch whereas protoss it's 1 cooldown per 150 minerals. On top of that to be at full strength protoss gateway armies require sentries, sentries have energy, energy takes time to build thats equal to or greater than most build times, similar concept with high templar. The difference is that WGs produce then cooldown. Zerg/Terran have to train for 20-50 seconds then have travel time to get units grouped together. Protoss get to warp in instantly all at the nearest pylon significantly cutting down on the time it takes to reinforce. Either way I don't know if I'd say it's a big deal, but the 30-40 WGs and the orbital command economy replacement both kinda remind me of Ragnarok from Age of Mythology lol. It is worth remembering that ALL races have their own unique end game tool which can be massed when resources are far from limited. Terran has the mule, allowing for their mineral miners to not use supply, thereby allowing for a larger total army than other races. Protoss has the warp gate, allowing for gateway tech units to be warped in to any pylon/warp field for rapid army replenishment. Finally, Zerg has the nydus worm, which is used FAR less than the other two mechanics. This allows for massive amounts of ground reinforcements of ALL techs to be spewed near your main army; and in the same way that P and T must invest in OCs or warp gates, the Z must invest in numerous nydus networks for this to be effective (if combined with larva inject to actually produce reinforcements)
Nydus Worms are the Zerg's maxed money sink?
I'd say Banelings.
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On April 27 2011 15:19 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 15:06 CortoMontez wrote:On April 27 2011 14:48 Logo wrote:On April 27 2011 12:40 Dingobloo wrote:On April 27 2011 12:36 lambchops wrote:I don't see how everyone is talking about wg being broken late game. The fact that we can build 40 warpgates endgame doesn't mean a terran can't have 40 barracks by endgame. like kinetik_inferno said, if a zerg can stall a protoss for half a minute, they would have the hydra/roach pop needed to fight if off, likewise if the terran went 40 barracks to be on par with a protosses 40 gateways, they would just have to stall half a minute to have a sizeable army again. the only difference is that protoss units cost significantly more than terran/zerg units, so a 40wg pop would be more or less a one time thing before they run dry of resources, making the other like 30 warpgates useless. i don't see why people complain about the endgame 40 warpgates, they cost money to make, and if they reacted by building the same amount of production, they churn out the same amount of units. warp gates aren't 'fundamentally broken' what hasuobs demonstrated was just a new way to spend your resources and replenish your army far quicker in the endgame. any other race can do the same with more hatcheries or more barracks. + Show Spoiler +as for that tsl game against boxer, the reason hasuobs had the ability to make so many extra gateways by the end of the game was because he was just that far ahead, there is no protoss imba bullshit or anything, boxer was just further behind, i'm sure if he had the resources to do it, boxer would also make 24 barracks to churn out units simultaneously and quickly. This. Zerg is much better in this regard because you get something like 12 larvae per hatch whereas protoss it's 1 cooldown per 150 minerals. On top of that to be at full strength protoss gateway armies require sentries, sentries have energy, energy takes time to build thats equal to or greater than most build times, similar concept with high templar. The difference is that WGs produce then cooldown. Zerg/Terran have to train for 20-50 seconds then have travel time to get units grouped together. Protoss get to warp in instantly all at the nearest pylon significantly cutting down on the time it takes to reinforce. Either way I don't know if I'd say it's a big deal, but the 30-40 WGs and the orbital command economy replacement both kinda remind me of Ragnarok from Age of Mythology lol. It is worth remembering that ALL races have their own unique end game tool which can be massed when resources are far from limited. Terran has the mule, allowing for their mineral miners to not use supply, thereby allowing for a larger total army than other races. Protoss has the warp gate, allowing for gateway tech units to be warped in to any pylon/warp field for rapid army replenishment. Finally, Zerg has the nydus worm, which is used FAR less than the other two mechanics. This allows for massive amounts of ground reinforcements of ALL techs to be spewed near your main army; and in the same way that P and T must invest in OCs or warp gates, the Z must invest in numerous nydus networks for this to be effective (if combined with larva inject to actually produce reinforcements) Nydus Worms are the Zerg's maxed money sink? I'd say Banelings.
The biggest problem with nydus worm is spell casters which give defenders advantage, mechanics required, expense and speed at which units go in and out.
You only needed to send 1 defiler through a nydus, without even needed to tell it where to deploy. Throw in a dark swarm. That said units would also pop twice as fast, it was cheap, but you needed hive and build on creep. Given this because you had multitude of bases late game, nydus became much more useful in BW than it is in SC2.
Unfortunately the off-creep mechanic has made nyduses useless, because it means not only are they pretty bad for offense, they are bad for defense as well due to nerfs.
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I just can't help but think if archons were already massive huk could have won his game last night. 2 dts morph. Crush ff. In base then. Could be a good build. To counter Protoss ff ramp
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this has got the best patch since sc2 came out
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wow really hurting toss, but it is for a reason, toss is so strong, but still just laying down the nerf bat ever since starting in beta
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On April 27 2011 15:55 mcmartini wrote:
I just can't help but think if archons were already massive huk could have won his game last night. 2 dts morph. Crush ff. In base then. Could be a good build. To counter Protoss ff ramp
what? I never knew DTs could morph into an archon. you mean HTs bro haha 
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On April 27 2011 16:17 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 15:55 mcmartini wrote:
I just can't help but think if archons were already massive huk could have won his game last night. 2 dts morph. Crush ff. In base then. Could be a good build. To counter Protoss ff ramp what? I never knew DTs could morph into an archon. you mean HTs bro haha
No he doesn't bro hahaha
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On April 27 2011 16:17 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 15:55 mcmartini wrote:
I just can't help but think if archons were already massive huk could have won his game last night. 2 dts morph. Crush ff. In base then. Could be a good build. To counter Protoss ff ramp what? I never knew DTs could morph into an archon. you mean HTs bro haha
Yes Dt's can morph into a Archon ^_^
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On April 27 2011 10:12 cozzE wrote:
Subversion, Ghosts are inherently a defensive unit (bar the TvP matchup). You pump 150 gas into them in order to STOP your opponent casting a spell and that's it (will be 100 gas post-patch). Snipe is somewhat useful but still overall it soaks alot of energy you'd rather have for emp.
Ghost's effectiveness are also reliant on semi-decent control, so that is X supply that can potentially do nothing for you.. unlike Infestors that can IT/FG and NP and do significant 'damage'.
Ghost's arent a defensive unit per se.
ghost can:
Negate enemy spellcasting with EMP, or simply snipe first.
Snipe biological units (scvs, zealots, marines, marauders, lings, hydras and much more)
They are armor neutral, meaning, they are just as the archon, not effected by either armored, light, massive or whatever bonuses to damage.
They can fire a nuke (nukes are pretty offensive? ye.. )
They can use their EMP to play aggressively, and wear down the shields of the protoss force.
(Spamming a few EMP's into the protoss army, will net u most wins, since they have no shields any of the units)
and let's not forget that they have cloak aswell 
Ghost are one of the best units in the game, and combined with either bio or mech or both, it becomes truly good.
And lowering ghosts by 50 gas is a huuuuge change, since u can mass them easier now, and minerals was never a problem for a terran player.
This means that I can get other tech units along with my ghosts, (Tanks, vikings or thors e.e)
or even bio upgrades = which is good..
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I Liked where the PvP matchup was atm.
People were really figuring out great anti 4-gate builds. Even 4gate vs 4gate builds all meant some great great micro wars where even minor decisions (build one too many probes or forward pylons) would mean gg..
I guess we'll just have to see with the new PTR..
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Nerfing Protoss was inevitable, as the idea of the warpgate, although very unique, is extremely powerful. The ability to reinforce instantly is a huge advantage, and is one of the main reasons Protoss has been so successful. I think we are just going to see more and more nerfs to the warpgate to make it more even for the other races who have to wait 20+ seconds just for their most basic units to come out, and even then they have to run across the map to join the battle!
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On April 27 2011 16:17 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 15:55 mcmartini wrote:
I just can't help but think if archons were already massive huk could have won his game last night. 2 dts morph. Crush ff. In base then. Could be a good build. To counter Protoss ff ramp what? I never knew DTs could morph into an archon. you mean HTs bro haha
I def meant dts. Tbh I'm surprised you don't see it more when dt rush fails especially against Terran and Zerg. And now being a massive unit will crush ff so can negate that advantage
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Not gonna look through over 100 pages to find a response, but any word on whether the pylon change makes walling in PvZ any harder/require a new method?
As a toss player pretty happy with pretty much all the changes, proxy 2 gate shouldnt be too big a deal should it? Since both sides get zealots out 5 seconds quicker. Though it does make stalling for cannons a bit harder...however with bigger maps/more 4 player maps than at release maybe it won't be as big a deal as it was then.
Ghost change was kind of weird, im guessing it was a small buff to help with TvZ infestor use...
Archon massive is awesome, an indirect buff to templar tech! Woot
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On April 27 2011 08:10 Disastorm wrote:
Has the skill level increased enough to defend the 2 gate opening with the low zealot train time? Because I remember shortly before the time was increased by 5 seconds, even top pro players were complaining about it (not only Idra) saying it was near unbeatable as Zerg.
However, that was with the old map pool, perhaps the new map pool no longer has this issue.
well problem is without the threat of 4 Gate, Zerg can drone like mad
i think that is the reason for allowing 2 Gate Pressure again.
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I wonder if Blizzard isn't trying to "guide" T into more mech play, or more diverse at least. I've seen a lot of MMM games where terran had well over 1k gas banked late game and no minerals, even with mules. 1.3.3 change will make T getting ghosts for MMM just slightly more difficult. It does make it a bit easier to get ghosts earlier or with mech I suppose.
To be honest they should cut mineral cost slightly off some gas heavy units, or improve them to there's some incentive or cash available to get them.
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On April 27 2011 16:43 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 08:10 Disastorm wrote:
Has the skill level increased enough to defend the 2 gate opening with the low zealot train time? Because I remember shortly before the time was increased by 5 seconds, even top pro players were complaining about it (not only Idra) saying it was near unbeatable as Zerg.
However, that was with the old map pool, perhaps the new map pool no longer has this issue. well problem is without the threat of 4 Gate, Zerg can drone like mad
As a Zerg player, I am sure as hell more intimidated by a forge/nexus or nexus first openers than a 4gate.
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On April 27 2011 16:23 firehand101 wrote:
Nerfing Protoss was inevitable, as the idea of the warpgate, although very unique, is extremely powerful. The ability to reinforce instantly is a huge advantage, and is one of the main reasons Protoss has been so successful. I think we are just going to see more and more nerfs to the warpgate to make it more even for the other races who have to wait 20+ seconds just for their most basic units to come out, and even then they have to run across the map to join the battle!
agre bro!!!!!!
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EPT
