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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
On April 27 2011 09:56 Noli wrote:
Muta stacking.. it's.... gone...?
Like all the changes beside the flying unit stacking, just can't see why they'd remove what's become such a huge part of the game, stupid Terrans and your Vikings. (so to fix a small viking bug they nerf zerg? I'm so confused)
You can still stack units. You just can't do viking flowers, which would be useless with mutas.
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On April 26 2011 11:31 Tianx wrote:
Ha, Blizzard still hates bunkers. 25 minerals is hardly anything significant and a reasonable change, though. Spore crawler change is a very welcome change, 2-rax is still nearly impossible to hold at close positions on the ladder maps.
Ghost change is... interesting. I'd rather them increase the gas cost than the mineral cost, Terran is the race that currently benefits the least from extra gas.
The only change I really don't like is making 'toss strictly stronger early game, making them a bit slower midgame, and not doing anything to change the lategame. TvP at least is definitely going to be harder if this patch goes through, dunno about ZvP since 4-gate is more of a problem there.
Edit: Wtf spore only? Yuck.
You have an odd definition of mid game, most protoss barely get any units before warpgate is done, I would still consider that fairly early game.
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On April 27 2011 10:20 Rorschach wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 27 2011 09:41 zyglrox wrote:
dunno if anybody has posted about this...but you can still 4gate pretty fast. 10/10 and cut a chrono of your first stalker can still 4gate around 5:40 with same number of probes/units. and i was eating a bowl of ice cream when i just tried it for the first time...so i'm sure i could refine it more I would like you to post the replay/build if you would. The closest I could get to what you stated is have the 1 lot and 5 stalkers at the 6min mark (pretty unrefined) here is the replay: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/()RorschachINK_vs_()Player 2_agria_valley_sc2rep_com_20110427/7536 For those to lazy to watch here is the rough BO: 10 pylon 10 gate 1 chrono on probes 12 gas 13 core (as soon as core is done start WG and spend ALL chrono on it) 16 zealot cut probes at 18 21 stalker 21 gate 21gate 21gate when WG is done (it will line up with the gateways finishing) warp in the 4 stalkers note in the replay I could have squeezed out another probe or two but it was my first time trying this.... thoughts people?
I've been playing around with this a little today. On a 10 gate, 12 gas I was able to get the 4 wg done (1z 6s) with 20 probes and 2 chronos on the nexus at ~6:05. If I went 13 gate » 4wg then I would have 1 zealot +7 stalkers at ~6:12
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On April 27 2011 10:20 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 09:41 zyglrox wrote:
dunno if anybody has posted about this...but you can still 4gate pretty fast. 10/10 and cut a chrono of your first stalker can still 4gate around 5:40 with same number of probes/units. and i was eating a bowl of ice cream when i just tried it for the first time...so i'm sure i could refine it more I would like you to post the replay/build if you would. The closest I could get to what you stated is have the 1 lot and 5 stalkers at the 6min mark (pretty unrefined) here is the replay: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/()RorschachINK_vs_()Player 2_agria_valley_sc2rep_com_20110427/7536 For those to lazy to watch here is the rough BO: 10 pylon 10 gate 1 chrono on probes 12 gas 13 core (as soon as core is done start WG and spend ALL chrono on it) 16 zealot cut probes at 18 21 stalker 21 gate 21gate 21gate when WG is done (it will line up with the gateways finishing) warp in the 4 stalkers note in the replay I could have squeezed out another probe or two but it was my first time trying this.... thoughts people?
You can probably get more units out by chrono'ing 3 gateways and getting slow WG tech. Unfortunately i'm on EU so can't test, but the timings just don't add up for 4gate in PvP anymore, it should be incredibly easy to stop. As for vs T and Z, it was never that strong in the first place and is now even weaker.. so..
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You can probably get more units out by chrono'ing 3 gateways and getting slow WG tech
Warpgate gives you the "free" cycle though when you first research them. If you forego warpgate for a gateway push, I'm not sure you'll make up for not having that extra handful of units.
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as a Protoss I will say....
I don't know if Zealots need a build time buff. Anything you need a fast Zealot to defend against, already came before WG tech--WG tech is essentially irrelevant to the Zealot's role in the early game. Plus, part of the reason for the Zealot build time nerf in the first place was to help PvP, which was dominated by early Zealot aggression.
If they made every change listed except the Zealot one, I think it would just about perfectly balance Toss.
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Love the pylon change. Now protoss have to play with skill or do a better 4 gate.
Love the ghost change. I hate having to dump gas into it for them to get picked off within 5 minutes.
LOVING THE WARP GATE CHANGE. No more fucking 4 gate noobs having a chance at being diamond without skill. Although, I should expect more proxies.
Salvage, don't really care about because I don't really use bunkers.
Spore crawlers, they need to do this with Spine crawlers also.
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On April 27 2011 10:20 Rorschach wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 09:41 zyglrox wrote:
dunno if anybody has posted about this...but you can still 4gate pretty fast. 10/10 and cut a chrono of your first stalker can still 4gate around 5:40 with same number of probes/units. and i was eating a bowl of ice cream when i just tried it for the first time...so i'm sure i could refine it more I would like you to post the replay/build if you would. The closest I could get to what you stated is have the 1 lot and 5 stalkers at the 6min mark (pretty unrefined) here is the replay: http://www.sc2rep.com/replays/()RorschachINK_vs_()Player 2_agria_valley_sc2rep_com_20110427/7536 For those to lazy to watch here is the rough BO: 10 pylon 10 gate 1 chrono on probes 12 gas 13 core (as soon as core is done start WG and spend ALL chrono on it) 16 zealot cut probes at 18 21 stalker 21 gate 21gate 21gate when WG is done (it will line up with the gateways finishing) warp in the 4 stalkers note in the replay I could have squeezed out another probe or two but it was my first time trying this.... thoughts people?
hmm
mines like this
10p
10g
1 chrono
13 gas
15 core
15 pylon (no probe production for 20minerals or so)
16 zealot
19 warp gate
21 stalker
24 gate
24 gate
24 gate
26 stalker
2xpylons
nonstop cboost from the moment your core is done. i've only tried it twice but it's a little rough..my warp gate tech is finishing a little ahead of my gates..this was literally the first build i tried as i thought in my head that this could work before the patch hit and it kinda does.
i mean it's still 5-10 seconds slower than your standard 13gate 4 gate right now but it still comes at 5:40-45 so =\. gotta do some school stuff, i'll fuck around late to see if i can cut some time off.
i think the biggest thing that's going to stop a lot of 4 gating is the pylon reduction anyways...this will just make 4 gates still ok in other match ups and more easily scouted (already scouted pretty easily before imo)
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This will make completing challenges harder on single player rush section?
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So here are my two cents...
I've seen a LOT of people complaining about how Terrans are not as gas heavy as other races and stuff like that, and with the ghost changes (200/100) things will bla bla bla....
We also know that in many cases MMM can win you the game, but then again, let's face it: a lot of people complain that terrans win with "tier 1/1.5 units alone". Terrans eventually had to start dealing with things that MMM just won't cut. That will make them get into their heavier gas units (mech/air or both).
On TvP, you need ghosts for mech to excel, and you must also worry about how immobile the bulk of a mech army is... Planetary fortress, sensorial towers, etc, will be "somewhat of a gas sink", or else you'll be walked around and caught with your tanks out of position.
As you can see, gas starts to get very slim due to extra needs apart from the army itself (upgrades, PFs, sens towers, rebuilding, repairing, etc). Reducing gas will help that a lot.
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On April 27 2011 11:43 vitaum88 wrote:
So here are my two cents...
I've seen a LOT of people complaining about how Terrans are not as gas heavy as other races and stuff like that, and with the ghost changes (200/100) things will bla bla bla....
We also know that in many cases MMM can win you the game, but then again, let's face it: a lot of people complain that terrans win with "tier 1/1.5 units alone". Terrans eventually had to start dealing with things that MMM just won't cut. That will make them get into their heavier gas units (mech/air or both).
On TvP, you need ghosts for mech to excel, and you must also worry about how immobile the bulk of a mech army is... Planetary fortress, sensorial towers, etc, will be "somewhat of a gas sink", or else you'll be walked around and caught with your tanks out of position.
As you can see, gas starts to get very slim due to extra needs apart from the army itself (upgrades, PFs, sens towers, rebuilding, repairing, etc). Reducing gas will help that a lot.
Terran is also the only race without a macro mechanic that helps gas mining.
Chronoboost and spawn larvae just get you more workers, period. You can use them on minerals, on gas, whatever.
But MULEs are mineral only. In terms of actual workers, Terran will always be behind Z and P, so assigning those workers to gas is a bigger sacrifice for them.
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United States7483 Posts
On April 27 2011 11:46 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 11:43 vitaum88 wrote:
So here are my two cents...
I've seen a LOT of people complaining about how Terrans are not as gas heavy as other races and stuff like that, and with the ghost changes (200/100) things will bla bla bla....
We also know that in many cases MMM can win you the game, but then again, let's face it: a lot of people complain that terrans win with "tier 1/1.5 units alone". Terrans eventually had to start dealing with things that MMM just won't cut. That will make them get into their heavier gas units (mech/air or both).
On TvP, you need ghosts for mech to excel, and you must also worry about how immobile the bulk of a mech army is... Planetary fortress, sensorial towers, etc, will be "somewhat of a gas sink", or else you'll be walked around and caught with your tanks out of position.
As you can see, gas starts to get very slim due to extra needs apart from the army itself (upgrades, PFs, sens towers, rebuilding, repairing, etc). Reducing gas will help that a lot. Terran is also the only race without a macro mechanic that helps gas mining. Chronoboost and spawn larvae just get you more workers, period. You can use them on minerals, on gas, whatever. But MULEs are mineral only. In terms of actual workers, Terran will always be behind Z and P, so assigning those workers to gas is a bigger sacrifice for them.
No, not quite, because they can put workers on gas and make up for those workers being on gas by having MULES on minerals. MULES can still help with gas gain, by mitigating the sacrifice of putting scv's on gas.
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On April 27 2011 11:46 awesomoecalypse wrote:
Terran is also the only race without a macro mechanic that helps gas mining.
Chronoboost and spawn larvae just get you more workers, period. You can use them on minerals, on gas, whatever.
But MULEs are mineral only. In terms of actual workers, Terran will always be behind Z and P, so assigning those workers to gas is a bigger sacrifice for them.
wut? MULEs allow less scvs on minerals and more on gas.
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On April 27 2011 11:46 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 11:43 vitaum88 wrote:
So here are my two cents...
I've seen a LOT of people complaining about how Terrans are not as gas heavy as other races and stuff like that, and with the ghost changes (200/100) things will bla bla bla....
We also know that in many cases MMM can win you the game, but then again, let's face it: a lot of people complain that terrans win with "tier 1/1.5 units alone". Terrans eventually had to start dealing with things that MMM just won't cut. That will make them get into their heavier gas units (mech/air or both).
On TvP, you need ghosts for mech to excel, and you must also worry about how immobile the bulk of a mech army is... Planetary fortress, sensorial towers, etc, will be "somewhat of a gas sink", or else you'll be walked around and caught with your tanks out of position.
As you can see, gas starts to get very slim due to extra needs apart from the army itself (upgrades, PFs, sens towers, rebuilding, repairing, etc). Reducing gas will help that a lot. Terran is also the only race without a macro mechanic that helps gas mining. Chronoboost and spawn larvae just get you more workers, period. You can use them on minerals, on gas, whatever. But MULEs are mineral only. In terms of actual workers, Terran will always be behind Z and P, so assigning those workers to gas is a bigger sacrifice for them.
Terran is also assumed to bring SCVs into battle. The fact that Terran SCVs are occupied while constructing every building, are required to repair mechanical units, and are the only melee units in the army makes the MULE a requirement to stay on equal footing in many cases.
Nerfing WG research time is a small step in the right direction, but I actually just think Warpgates are fundamentally broken.
+ Show Spoiler [TSL Spoiler. DO NOT READ.] +
HasuObs showed us the real end-game threat of protoss. Once a protoss player is maxed, the game is essentially over. Every second the Protoss stays maxed the worse off you are. HasuObs actually had like 35-40 warpgates, maybe more. To replenish 60-80 supply worth of units in 5 seconds, and then have a 120-140 supply army in less than 45 seconds after you lose your whole army is just straight up broken. No way around that.
Protoss actually has an effective Infinity Supply Push. Once they have enough warpgates to remax there is no way to win the game. This game is a perfect example as he was up against one of the best players in the world.
How in the world is Blizzard gonna fix something THAT broken?
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I'm confused. From what I've gathered, the problem isn't that Protoss doesn't have enough options in the early game, it's that defenders don't have enough ways to react to the early-game Pylon push. How is giving Protoss players a very viable alternative to straight Warp-Gate pressure supposed to change that?
On April 27 2011 12:04 TimeSpiral wrote:
Nerfing WG research time is a small step in the right direction, but I actually just think Warpgates are fundamentally broken.
I completely agree with this. I originally looked at Warp Gates as a very interesting means of increasing Protoss map control and mobility. As it turns out, the ability is simply being used to push pressure down the throats of defending players. That's not fun.
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Archon buff is a really good thing... finally I will not lose my archons to marauder kitting... WG nerf is bad... I agreed with the pylon nerf even if it's gonna, maybe, mess the wall-in vs z... But the WG is bad... Protoss is gonna get destroid by 3 raxs push... Stim is now again at the same time as WG so we got that problem back -__- 4gate is not even such a big deal... it's easy to hold of, especially with the pylon nerf 
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On April 27 2011 12:04 TimeSpiral wrote:+ Show Spoiler [TSL Spoiler. DO NOT READ.] +
HasuObs showed us the real end-game threat of protoss. Once a protoss player is maxed, the game is essentially over. Every second the Protoss stays maxed the worse off you are. HasuObs actually had like 35-40 warpgates, maybe more. To replenish 60-80 supply worth of units in 5 seconds, and then have a 120-140 supply army in less than 45 seconds after you lose your whole army is just straight up broken. No way around that.
Protoss actually has an effective Infinity Supply Push. Once they have enough warpgates to remax there is no way to win the game. This game is a perfect example as he was up against one of the best players in the world.
How in the world is Blizzard gonna fix something THAT broken?
+10 for that.
Whatever how fine this game is at the early/mid stage, the late game is far behind from the point it have to be.
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On April 27 2011 12:04 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 11:46 awesomoecalypse wrote:On April 27 2011 11:43 vitaum88 wrote:
So here are my two cents...
I've seen a LOT of people complaining about how Terrans are not as gas heavy as other races and stuff like that, and with the ghost changes (200/100) things will bla bla bla....
We also know that in many cases MMM can win you the game, but then again, let's face it: a lot of people complain that terrans win with "tier 1/1.5 units alone". Terrans eventually had to start dealing with things that MMM just won't cut. That will make them get into their heavier gas units (mech/air or both).
On TvP, you need ghosts for mech to excel, and you must also worry about how immobile the bulk of a mech army is... Planetary fortress, sensorial towers, etc, will be "somewhat of a gas sink", or else you'll be walked around and caught with your tanks out of position.
As you can see, gas starts to get very slim due to extra needs apart from the army itself (upgrades, PFs, sens towers, rebuilding, repairing, etc). Reducing gas will help that a lot. Terran is also the only race without a macro mechanic that helps gas mining. Chronoboost and spawn larvae just get you more workers, period. You can use them on minerals, on gas, whatever. But MULEs are mineral only. In terms of actual workers, Terran will always be behind Z and P, so assigning those workers to gas is a bigger sacrifice for them. Terran is also assumed to bring SCVs into battle. The fact that Terran SCVs are occupied while constructing every building, are required to repair mechanical units, and are the only melee units in the army makes the MULE a requirement to stay on equal footing in many cases. Nerfing WG research time is a small step in the right direction, but I actually just think Warpgates are fundamentally broken. + Show Spoiler [TSL Spoiler. DO NOT READ.] +
HasuObs showed us the real end-game threat of protoss. Once a protoss player is maxed, the game is essentially over. Every second the Protoss stays maxed the worse off you are. HasuObs actually had like 35-40 warpgates, maybe more. To replenish 60-80 supply worth of units in 5 seconds, and then have a 120-140 supply army in less than 45 seconds after you lose your whole army is just straight up broken. No way around that.
Protoss actually has an effective Infinity Supply Push. Once they have enough warpgates to remax there is no way to win the game. This game is a perfect example as he was up against one of the best players in the world.
How in the world is Blizzard gonna fix something THAT broken?
Zerg can *fight* it by building fricktons of hatcheries. Terran can simply mass marine BECAUSE colossus don't take five seconds, and marines do well against a gateway army, lacking colossus. Likewise if zerg can stall the toss for a half minute, then they can be on par, having massed hydra roach.
*if the protoss has a proxy pylon near the zerg main, then they can summon their army close enough to attack before the hydra/roaches pop.
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On April 27 2011 11:08 awesomoecalypse wrote:Show nested quote +You can probably get more units out by chrono'ing 3 gateways and getting slow WG tech Warpgate gives you the "free" cycle though when you first research them. If you forego warpgate for a gateway push, I'm not sure you'll make up for not having that extra handful of units.
I made an indepth analysis on a blog post: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=216934
Basically:
1) if the push now comes later you can easily get an immortal out or even two. Look at the 3 stalker 4gate counter for evidence of this. The whole premise of that build was to delay the 4gate by 15-20 seconds, which is enough time for an immortal or another round of sentries to get out. With these changes the 4gate now comes those extra 15-20 seconds later by default. Either that or it comes around the same time but their econ. is too low to support a sustained attack.
2) If the push is now weaker it's easily stoppable by a defensive 3 gate + double gas, Which if held leads to a win 99% of the time.
3) Like I said, I think new timings will open up where 3 gateways chrono'd could easily outmass 4 warpgates early game, but that remains to be seen (I'm EU and don't have access to PTR).
Basically the timing for a 4 warpgate was already very fragile, if your push came afew seconds too late the 4gate failed. With this patch that timing window is all but gone.
Also the pylon change is actually huge, without the pylon warping into the high ground 4gate was never a problem in the first place, since it could be stopped by sentries.
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To be honest, the 100% ---> 75% bunker salvage seems incredibly negligible to me; in all honesty, the 50-75 minerals we'll lose after salvaging them doesn't feel like it'll make any difference whatsoever, especially since you should really place bunkers and be prepared to lose them, along with some SCVs for repair. That's my opinion, anyway.
Ommmmmmnomnom ghost mech. Happy day!
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