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Massive units are not affected by concussive shells. If you think they are, you are wrong.
It's SPORE crawlers that are being changed, not SPINE. Please read carefully. |
Archons being massive = forcefields being crushed which makes HT play more viable in the long run. Also archons aren't useless against terran as they can't be slowed down by marauders which is a great and much needed buff. They still get stunned by FG however.
Spine crawler not being 6, is a GOOD thing, spines are extremely powerful, and listen, it's not that hard to COVER your damn spines with units/queens while they get into position. Spores are another matter because all you have for AA are queens and spores for the first 6 minutes of the game, and it's a LOT harder to cover your spores when you generally aren't massing queens (if you are you are delaying lair tech which is needed for hydras). 3 queens is enough to stop a void and 2 phoenix, but not 3 phoenix, and 3 queens can stop 2 banshees but not 3 banshees. The spore change is a good one because there is a fine line for critical mass for air units against zerg.
Ghosts cost change, This isn't a bad change because ghosts don't have abilities that "kill" you other than snipe. HT can storm, feedback, all do significant damage. Infestor can fungal, throw out terrans and NP, all of these again can do massive massive damage. Ghost on the other hand, besides Nuke (which no one really uses) aren't game changing other than EMP which doesn't directly kill. Snipe can be good against Terran early on but EMP doesn't out right kill units, it only removes things out of the equation. With infestors becoming MORE common in ZvT, terran needs ghosts to become cheaper to allow themselves to afford other things to allow them to win. Its VERY hard to go mech AND ghosts off two base because of the gas cost. Sure you can go bio/ghost and get OWNED by infestors, you need mech to back your shit up like tanks and thors or other high tech shit like banshees or ravens. I think the gas decrease is a great change, now we will see MORE ghost play which is a much needed counter to infestors in ZvT.
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PROTOSS
Archons are now a massive unit. I'm not sure how I feel about this. It'll mean that archons won't sync with sentries as well, they'll be crushing forcefields...down. I think even just a unit passive ability that makes them immune to concussive shells would have been fine.
Pylon power radius has been decreased from 7.5 to 6.5. Interesting, I personally haven't seen any problems with it, but I guess its Blizzards way of subtlety nerfing protoss?
Cybernetics Core
Research Warp Gate time increased from 140 to 180. 40 seconds is heaps. definitely will make 4 gate pressure against Z's easier, or maybe even null? tosses might stop doing it, not that I ever had a problem with it.
Gateway
Sentry train time decreased from 42 to 37.
Stalker train time decreased from 42 to 37.
Zealot train time decreased from 38 to 33.
Warp Gate unit train times remain unchanged.
Understandable.
TERRAN
Ghost
Cost changed from 150/150 to 200/100. Terrans have never had a problem with minerals, but gas is a resource every race starves for...I would have prefered something like 175/125 though.
Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%. I feel that %75 isnt too bad, I would still prefer a longer salvage time though, what is it? 3 seconds? that's some god damn fast salvaging huh?
ZERG
Spore Crawler
Root time decreased from 12 to 6. A good buff. Glad to see it. I'm no top player, and I think IMO, that personally it was a bit hard to relocate spores when being harassed by banshees. I was hoping spine crawler placement times would be reduced a bit too, 10 seconds would be nice, can't complain really.
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I can finally use archons against Terran without cringing at concussive shell!
Thank goodness, archons are so underused. Maybe we'll see more HT usage and perhaps... just perhaps an archon made on purpose instead of just using a depleted energy HT.
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On April 27 2011 09:07 emc wrote:
Archons being massive = forcefields being crushed which makes HT play more viable in the long run. Also archons aren't useless against terran as they can't be slowed down by marauders which is a great and much needed buff. They still get stunned by FG however.
Spine crawler not being 6, is a GOOD thing, spines are extremely powerful, and listen, it's not that hard to COVER your damn spines with units/queens while they get into position. Spores are another matter because all you have for AA are queens and spores for the first 6 minutes of the game, and it's a LOT harder to cover your spores when you generally aren't massing queens (if you are you are delaying lair tech which is needed for hydras). 3 queens is enough to stop a void and 2 phoenix, but not 3 phoenix, and 3 queens can stop 2 banshees but not 3 banshees. The spore change is a good one because there is a fine line for critical mass for air units against zerg.
Ghosts cost change, This isn't a bad change because ghosts don't have abilities that "kill" you other than snipe. HT can storm, feedback, all do significant damage. Infestor can fungal, throw out terrans and NP, all of these again can do massive massive damage. Ghost on the other hand, besides Nuke (which no one really uses) aren't game changing, snipe can be good against Terran early on but EMP doesn't out right kill units, it only removes things out of the equation. With infestors becoming MORE common in ZvT, terran needs ghosts to become cheaper to allow themselves to afford other things to allow them to win. Its VERY hard to go mech AND ghosts off two base because of the gas cost. Sure you can go bio/ghost and get OWNED by infestors, you need mech to back your shit up like tanks and thors or other high tech shit like banshees or ravens. I think the gas decrease is a great change, now we will see MORE ghost play which is a much needed counter to infestors in ZvT.
Damn you had me until you said ghosts aren't game changing...
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Thanks for these, looks like a decent compromise.
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O.o i like the new patch so far, Archons cant be slowed yay finally a unit i have been longing to use but decided only to get them when my DT's were no longer viable and HT's being out of mana. now i may use them without being so upset, also this gives PvP fights another option other than just Collosi spam because Force field was pretty strong and nullifying any engagement without them.
I love the warp-gate research change, no longer will i be able to easily have a 90% win ratio vs zergs yay. as a random player i despised 4 gate rushes being very hard to hold off when a good player is controlling the units(only when i randomed zerg) also not being forced into a 4 gate every single time i random into a PvP is going to be a refreshing change.
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in terms of team games would 2 gate be extremely powerful again?
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On April 27 2011 09:12 Jayrod wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 09:07 emc wrote:
Archons being massive = forcefields being crushed which makes HT play more viable in the long run. Also archons aren't useless against terran as they can't be slowed down by marauders which is a great and much needed buff. They still get stunned by FG however.
Spine crawler not being 6, is a GOOD thing, spines are extremely powerful, and listen, it's not that hard to COVER your damn spines with units/queens while they get into position. Spores are another matter because all you have for AA are queens and spores for the first 6 minutes of the game, and it's a LOT harder to cover your spores when you generally aren't massing queens (if you are you are delaying lair tech which is needed for hydras). 3 queens is enough to stop a void and 2 phoenix, but not 3 phoenix, and 3 queens can stop 2 banshees but not 3 banshees. The spore change is a good one because there is a fine line for critical mass for air units against zerg.
Ghosts cost change, This isn't a bad change because ghosts don't have abilities that "kill" you other than snipe. HT can storm, feedback, all do significant damage. Infestor can fungal, throw out terrans and NP, all of these again can do massive massive damage. Ghost on the other hand, besides Nuke (which no one really uses) aren't game changing, snipe can be good against Terran early on but EMP doesn't out right kill units, it only removes things out of the equation. With infestors becoming MORE common in ZvT, terran needs ghosts to become cheaper to allow themselves to afford other things to allow them to win. Its VERY hard to go mech AND ghosts off two base because of the gas cost. Sure you can go bio/ghost and get OWNED by infestors, you need mech to back your shit up like tanks and thors or other high tech shit like banshees or ravens. I think the gas decrease is a great change, now we will see MORE ghost play which is a much needed counter to infestors in ZvT. Damn you had me until you said ghosts aren't game changing...
i meant that they aren't as game changing as HT or infestors but they ARE game changing in some way. I think I just was trying to get my thoughts out and kind of messed them up.
Basically what I mean is that the ghosts primary roles are countering HT or infestors, you don't blindly get ghosts for no reason (except TvT), they are a counter unit to strong casters or units that require shields, like immortals. ZvT though, their only usefulness are to stop infestors, so they aren't game changing unless the zerg is making a big commitment to infestors which is pretty common for me as a zerg player. EMP also doesn't outright kill a unit, it just makes them useless to a degree and allows your dps units to clean up.
Anyways, I think the gas cost is a great change because it frees up gas that can be used for other things like tanks, thors, you know important stuff.
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I smell a PvP revolution coming...maybe in a month or 2 we will see some archon blink stalker combinations, and maybe some epic feedback wars, between HT's and sentries.
On April 27 2011 09:20 ilmman wrote:
in terms of team games would 2 gate be extremely powerful again?
since stalkers and sentries have had their build times reduced, it should be less of a bitch to deal with 2 gates
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Spine crawlers should be considered a unit when uprooted and able to smash thru FF
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I am a little concerned about the muta stacking. I feel like if we cant stack mutas then harassing is going to be a lot harder/less fun
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Anyone think that PvP may go back to being very heavy zealot focused? 2/3 gates, proxy gates, mass charlot... that kind of stuff.
Thank God no more k4wg though.
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On April 27 2011 09:31 Falsepigeon wrote:
I am a little concerned about the muta stacking. I feel like if we cant stack mutas then harassing is going to be a lot harder/less fun
I'm 99% sure that this referred to the bug regarding auto-stacking. The initial fix was so you couldn't patrol in close proximity (i.e. viking flower), however I believe TL posted a thread on how you could still shift que viking flowers to work for auto-stacking (i.e. See MMA's GSL match on Terminus). Your flying units will still clump together to help you avoid or get destroyed  by thors.
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On April 26 2011 16:42 iggyzizzle wrote:
Other match-ups will not be changed nearly as much because 4gate hasn't lately been a huge problem in PvT or PvZ. This pushes back ALL types of 4gates back 40 seconds, no matter how many chrono boosts are used on the WG tech.
Seriously, this is such a huge change that it will completely redefine the first 10 or so minutes of PvP completely. 2gate into cyber or 1gate robo will probably become the norm. It will also slightly change openers for other match-ups as well.
That's not really true, they will be changed a lot. Just because people don't 4gate much doesn't mean that the threat of a possible 4gate isn't important. It keeps other races honest.
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On April 27 2011 07:27 JustAGame wrote:
i couldnt read it all, but i just guess no one thought about the less obvious changes..
(this is not about balance, just about the REAL changes behind it and the possible results)
PvZ:
Hallucination will be out way later which will make PvZ scouting impossible early on.
Cannon rush wont be seen as much same as 4 gating against the zerg which will take away 2 more viable builds in this match up. Hatch first will be very risky now, so maybe this wont be seen any more as well. Builds that delay the core ( Nexus first, FFE) are nerfed as well and might have trouble against roach bust or other all ins.
PvT:
Ghost change will allow Mech+Ghosts in TvP. How did Toss players handle this ? They 4Gate before the first thor showes up, which wont happen any more.
Extra chronoboost needed to get WG tech out will result in one less probe. WG gave toss a way to get the units he needs a little faster early on. e.g. : Sentry dies = warp in a sentry etc. Taking this away will actually slightly buff a lot of early terran rushes.
The reduced build time of the stalker will nerf reapers even more.
Early stalker builds are faster and might be hard to deal with for some early expansion builds.
PvP:
The toss who decides to not use chrono on his WG tech will now be 20 more seconds behind than before the patch.
This might allow to get immortals out in time to deal with a 4 gate. But after all. Its not much of a change. Since after the patch there will still be only one or two viable builds in PvP (my guess is: 3 gate robo and proxy 2gate ). This match was fast and micro intensive before, it will be turtle or cheese play after, which is even more boring.
There are some interesting games to watch, but i even turned off TSL after a while (and as i compare the viewers from RO32 to RO8 i am not the only one) because SC2 is always the same. There are only 1 or 2 viable builds in each match up, always the same late game transitions, and from there on the game does feel like someone hit the repeat button ( remember sen vs boxer which felt like an endless repeat of the same 20 marines and 3 tanks moving out)
Blizzard is really doing well at destroying SC2 and the e-sports scene around it. I wonder how much more is needed to give it the final blow.
Terrible post, you take every change and magnify it 100% because its a "change"
Obivously we will rarely see 4 gate again
Obviously every T will go ghost mech
Obviously you will rarely cannon rush ever again
...
Blizz's approach is solid, small changes based on meta game.
At this point nothing can really kill this game due to the money/viewership it has.
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dunno if anybody has posted about this...but you can still 4gate pretty fast. 10/10 and cut a chrono of your first stalker can still 4gate around 5:40 with same number of probes/units. and i was eating a bowl of ice cream when i just tried it for the first time...so i'm sure i could refine it more
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Can anybody elaborate on the stacking? Last change was basically a min. distance for patrolling, so nothing that interferes with muta stacking while attacking. I hope this stays the same and the patch just ensures the min. distance. Anything different would be game breaking.
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Is there a reason why you would want to EMP the same location twice?
It takes 2 to negate a full energy caster and you can get 3 full effect EMPs on an Archon or Mothership.
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On April 27 2011 08:52 SoBeDragon wrote:
Fixed a bug where Ghosts could not quickly EMP the same location. Is there a reason why you would want to EMP the same location twice? Seems like a waste. I'm looking at this as kind of a nerf...just in a weird way.
This is actually a big deal. EMP only strips 100 energy since the last patch, meaning that Terrans needed to drop double EMPs to nullify full energy casters. I didn't realise there was a bug that stopped them doing that, but it would explain why I didn't see it often.
This and the ghost cost reduction are really a continuation of the nerf-wars that followed the death of Khaydarin amulet. I feel like the 200/100 thing is a little unnecessary. Ghosts are already really good units. I think it's pretty well established that late-game PvT is leaning away from templar tech already, and 30% cheaper EMPs can't be good news for infestor-based ZvT either.
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On April 27 2011 05:40 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2011 05:37 ZeroTalent wrote:On April 26 2011 11:20 Jimbo77 wrote:Salvage resource return reduced from 100% to 75%. So, salvaging is the same as cancelling? Boo. I sort of get the QQing about bunkers being free, but how about 90%? C'mon blizzard, let's make a deal here... You realize that salvaging happens when the structure has been completely built, right?
You realize that turrets and spine crawlers actually *do* something on their own, and don't require you to leave army supply around for static ground defense, right?
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EPT
