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On April 11 2011 10:14 BrTarolg wrote:
Btw can you explain why you get the overlord before the 3rd ling?
On a 6pool?
I know that it's going to take me more than 6 lings. I'd rather have a steady stream of 2 lings over 6 lings, more lings, then a long break waiting for an overlord.
I think I explained it earlier that in most situations, only 4 lings can hit a forge at any given time, which makes the two extra lings pointless. I reinforce with more when I need them and have that extra supply cap available.
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On April 11 2011 10:18 shadowboxer wrote:
To be perfectly honest, cheesing is THE way to get into masters if you're not already in it. Standard play will never get you there. I have a friend that is about 1/10th my skill level and he does a +1 timing with zerglings off of 2 base and all ins every game and it works the majority of the time. It also loses him just enough games for his MMR to be stable.
He beats me to masters because I'm an idiot and play super standard macro play every game. Needless to say all I do is cheese now and quickly climbed to rank 1 on EU and NA in diamond waiting for promotion.
TL;DR: Playing standard on ladder is fucking pointless until you get to masters.
So you reach masters and then start learning the game from scratch? What was the reason for rushing then?... You didn't really achieve anything since once the legit player reaches masters he will be 10 fold better than you.
Edit: woot, post 1234
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On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
Whoa...thats making it sound like he was hacking or something. It is frustrating for sure, but saying that is a bit too harsh.
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On April 11 2011 10:21 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 10:18 shadowboxer wrote:
To be perfectly honest, cheesing is THE way to get into masters if you're not already in it. Standard play will never get you there. I have a friend that is about 1/10th my skill level and he does a +1 timing with zerglings off of 2 base and all ins every game and it works the majority of the time. It also loses him just enough games for his MMR to be stable.
He beats me to masters because I'm an idiot and play super standard macro play every game. Needless to say all I do is cheese now and quickly climbed to rank 1 on EU and NA in diamond waiting for promotion.
TL;DR: Playing standard on ladder is fucking pointless until you get to masters. So you reach masters and then start learning the game from scratch? What was the reason for rushing then?... You didn't really achieve anything since once the legit player reaches masters he will be 10 fold better than you. Edit: woot, post 1234
he's clueless. He will be crushed by masters players by playing standard. Once he realizes that he sucks at playing standard, he will go right back to cheesing to maintain his masters position.
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I think cheese is great, and crucial for the game. 6 pool is an awesome strat for lower-tier players who want to take games off stronger players.
Let me give you an example. Let's say the OP's win rate is 30% if he play straight up, this means he could increase it to by 6 pooling.
In a 4 player map, there is a 33% chance that you are scouted last, and in this case, it becomes a free win for you. 33% may still seem kind of low, but compared to your usual win rate if you play standard, it is still higher, and possibly could be increased if the opponent screws up or late scouts or something.
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I would really want to see what kind of percentages you could have gotten if you would have switched it up when you went against a T, like a Bling bust or a Roach all in. All in all i think that it is very interesting that you could win so many games, especially against toss!
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Very interesting! As a Zerg player, I've been looking to incorporate some all-ins into my play, and early pools seem like a good place to start. Could you talk about the micro against a Protoss who a) goes for a forge, and pulls probes to protect it, or b) goes for a regular gateway and runs probes until the zealot is out?
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Also you lost a game vs oakhill where he just used 2 gateways and made zealots to defend... did you make a critical mistake here? He also had 13 gate and didn't scout till late on xelnaga
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On April 11 2011 10:31 Lobotomist wrote:
Very interesting! As a Zerg player, I've been looking to incorporate some all-ins into my play, and early pools seem like a good place to start. Could you talk about the micro against a Protoss who a) goes for a forge, and pulls probes to protect it, or b) goes for a regular gateway and runs probes until the zealot is out?
If it's a really late forge going down(50% or less done when you get to the doorstep), you have to hit the gateway. It has more health but will still die before a cannon finishes. The late forge also means zealots are going to be coming out (and the chrono will provide the proof, because it will have chrono boost on it).
If he attacks straight up with probes, it's not necessarily a good idea to engage him. Count the ling numbers, count the probe numbers. I wouldn't attack them unless the numbers are either even or in your favour (some exceptions would be when the remaining probe count is low(6lings vs 8-10 probes is a fight I would pick if none were mining) or if he pulls off probes that is equal to less than the total number of probes and still not vastly outnumbering your lings).
If the forge is going down/is down(most likely scenario if he scouted you early enough), your best bet is to kill the forge. It has less health and will die faster than the gateway.
Assuming you break the wall and kill the first cannon, two things will happen. He'll ignore you entirely and keep mining/chronoing a zealot and lose. Take the first chance you get to surround the zealot (4 lings hitting or more) and hack away at the pylons in the mean time.
If he pulls probes to protect the cannon, you may just be screwed. With good micro and intent to protect that cannon, it's very hard to break. Use your best judgment call on this one. Maybe 3-4 lings on the building cannon and keep him from mining. He's going to see it and he's going to move closer to the lings trying to kill it. Be ready to micro them away for a second / try to surround.
It really takes a lot of micro and quick thinking to pull these games off.
Don't forget to macro. The worst thing you can do is not receive your 2ling reinforcement every x seconds.
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On April 11 2011 10:39 BrTarolg wrote:
Also you lost a game vs oakhill where he just used 2 gateways and made zealots to defend... did you make a critical mistake here? He also had 13 gate and didn't scout till late on xelnaga
Not sure, I don't remember every game  . It could have just been one of the very late night games that I don't even remember.
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"Win ratio vs Terran: ~15-20%"
lol why even try?
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wow that's funny that people still don't know how to defend a 6 pool.
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I watched about 20 of em so far, good stuff! Not one Terran even came close to loosing.
Also good job Flabulous (Mr Bitter) on holding off that cheese 
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how does a 7pool vs 7pool work?
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Funny stuff, i would switch up six pool to a 2 hatch bane bust to counter the probable two rax that is six pool proof.
I six pool a lot on ladder when im bored or frustrated, makes for some good times
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Cheese won't get you better overall if you depend on it, but a win is a win. Every once and a while I'll toss out an 8pool in a zvz, and it often works. It is nice to change things up every once and a while
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Is seriusly sad that you can beat a really superior P player in any of the 4 player maps with a crappy strat like this. I even sadder that some crappy players surelly will start to 6 pool even more after reading this.
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Haha this is funny.
I think this kind of cheese has its place in tournaments especially when your opponent doesn't expect it (ie right after you win a long macro game) but it's annoying when you play on ladder and face this stuff, just because I feel its completely retarded to this stuff unless your playing purely for laughs...but i don't see how the s1 3.5k masters i was facing thought 6 pooling was fun. I cheese in team games because that's how you play team games, but even then I get bored...
For the cheese itself, as Zerg I find it's really easy to defend unless it's like cross position on the largest map in the world which causes to go 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool (against zerg), but I know I'm taking a risk and that I'll be ahead unless my opponent cheeses or does the same. Pros probably wouldn't do this and I don't think this would ever work. As your numbers show it works best against protoss who have been extremely greedy as of late with the new map pool, often going nexus first, forge nexus or gateway nexus. I still would rather do an economic cheese to counter his fast expo by going 16 hatch 16 pool and getting a quick third. You can make so many drones its awesome. So I don't feel this should be used ever on the ladder. In professional tournament games its a risk that, as we've seen in major tournaments of both sc1 and sc2, can pay off immensely or cost you your dignity 
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On April 11 2011 07:24 Pokebunny wrote:
yo which game is whiplash
:D
^ I see what you did there
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Thats funny, I got 7 pooled earlier today and lost. I'm low diamond and it's so rare that I begin to forget about.
I was all sorts of pissed when I lost, but my anger was directed mostly at myself. I built my first supply depot next to my cc instead of on top of the ramp >.<
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EPT
