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Let me start by saying that I don't condone in any way cheesing, especially to the extreme that I took it that week. I don't play like this.
I had taken an extended break before the lockout of season 1. I started the week needing to burn up 1840 bonus pool. That's a lot of games.
I crunched some numbers: there's absolutely no way I'd have enough time to play that many real games in one week.
I wanted a better emblem for the season.
Solution? Fast games. 6 pools(7 vs zerg).
What did I learn? It works amazingly.
**NOTE** The following percentages are based on master's 1500 through 3300-3400 players. There is a wall you hit shortly after where the percentages drop largely. Terran to about 2-5%, Zerg is about the same, and Protoss to around 55-65%.
Win ratio vs Terran: ~15-20%
Win ratio vs Zerg: ~65-75%
Win ratio vs Protoss: ~85-95%
My MMR at the end sat at at around 3800-3900. I fought a few "e-famous" people including Flabulous, Kiwikaki, and VTWhiplash (to be fair I had no idea who this guy was until I saw him on the Dallas stream a few days ago...and again to be fair I still don't).
What are your thoughts on 6pooling at high levels of play?
You can find the replay pack here:
6-7 pool replay pack
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Anything that wins that high of a % is viable, although I would learn a different ZvT allin like baneling bust.
Cheese is part of the game, if anything more people should cheese / do refined cheese/timing attacks because overall it will help ladder players test their builds more anyway.
It's a big flaw that NA players don't refine timing attacks / cheese because it just helps everyone, including macro players who have to actually execute their "standard" builds better / react better to cheese.
If anything it exemplifies how "soft" (terrible) NA ladder / non top top players is/are.
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That's pretty hilarious. Not sure why you'd want a replay pack, though.
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do the protoss players get mad at you? I guess i should do this more since I'm in gold and 99% of protoss 4 warpgate
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My ZvZ strat for a while was 7pool just because I find that matchup rather frustrating. I've since changed my strat because playing what seems to be a coinflip (I can win or my opponent can win, all depending on the build he chooses at the start) was further frustrating.
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Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well.
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Funny...but sad at the same time......(im toss)
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I played a guy like this yesterday. He 6pooled me with all his drones + bad micro so I checked his matchlist to how he got his MMR that high and I saw he 6pooled every game. Shows how easy the NA ladder can be...
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I can imagine protoss especially having a hard time on 4 player maps as the chance is pretty big that you're gonna scout it too late to react properly.
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yo which game is whiplash
:D
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Zergs need to be 6pooling way more often.
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If a Protoss player is in the top 400 and hasn't learned how to safeguard themselves from 6pool, they deserve to lose.
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6 pooling is a great way to piss somebody off. I was once 6 pooled 3 times in a row, losing them all. That made me so furious that the next 20 games all I did was 6 pool, 6 rax and proxy gate. Didn't work out very well for me though.
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how do you even check your mmr?
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I always 10 gate in PvZ because of this
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On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well.
Lol ya I tend to get pretty angry when I lose to cheese. I am much more experienced vs 6 pool now though, so I challenge you to a 6 pool rematch whenever! My rage is never a personal attack of hatred, just me venting my frustration.
(also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS)
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On April 11 2011 07:24 Pokebunny wrote:
yo which game is whiplash
:D
I'm not sure 
I took all the replays for that week and removed the 3-4 Zealot Frenzy games I played for fun. There might be a couple real games in there too (I started playing vs Terrans towards the end because the chance of loss with a 6pool was too great).
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probably the best and yes i dont enjoy doign it but sometimes 6 pooling a toss is fun if ur fursturated
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Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are.
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i presume there's no way for me to tell which of these games are wins or losses without watching?
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On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well.
yeah it's a really stupid attitude people have against cheesers.
Part of standard play is actually mixing in the extremes. Even Jaedong 4 pools, july won an OSL mainly cheesing, etc. MC with 150,000 in winnings still 4 gates / stargates cheeses a pretty good chunk of his games. Adopting an idra attitude towards cheesing is ridiculous.
There are so many non masters that explain "I could just cheese to masters". You actually should cheese to masters and at least learn to execute / implement a decent build order. You still will get a lot of practice refining for instance a 4 warpgate or w.e. build it is. Better practice than floating 500 minerals and massing carriers on one base.
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On April 11 2011 07:26 ElusoryX wrote:
how do you even check your mmr?
I was going off the rating of the people I was playing. To be entirely fair their mmr at the time could have been(and was most likely, since it fluctuates constantly) higher or lower than their actual.
It seemed to be more and more steady towards the end of the week though.
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I knew that as a terran its relatively easier for me to hold off a 6-pool, but I hadn't realized HOW much easier. Any particular reason that you were being so unsuccessful versus T? Were you not trying to drone-block the wall-in then?
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Umm no... if you scout 6 pool second last or last on 4 player maps, you lose. I'm pretty sure it's unwinnable if you scout last on these huge maps now lol. You scout their base when lings are already in :s
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On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. Lol ya I tend to get pretty angry when I lose to cheese. I am much more experienced vs 6 pool now though, so I challenge you to a 6 pool rematch whenever! My rage is never a personal attack of hatred, just me venting my frustration. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS)
Im Zerg and I agree. But yes you do get very angry when you lose to cheese. From an outside perspective its actually very entertaining 
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On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are.
I didn't say it was a bad thing to do, I said I don't normally do it.
The rest of your response - right.
If i were to put out one fire with a hose, could I say I'm a fire-fighter?
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On April 11 2011 07:28 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. yeah it's a really stupid attitude people have against cheesers. Part of standard play is actually mixing in the extremes. Even Jaedong 4 pools, july won an OSL mainly cheesing, etc. MC with 150,000 in winnings still 4 gates / stargates cheeses a pretty good chunk of his games. Adopting an idra attitude towards cheesing is ridiculous. There are so many non masters that explain "I could just cheese to masters". You actually should cheese to masters and at least learn to execute / implement a decent build order. You still will get a lot of practice refining for instance a 4 warpgate or w.e. build it is. Better practice than floating 500 minerals and massing carriers on one base.
Even IdrA 6 pools sometimes
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as a high diamond, and experienced 6/7pooler, I find that protoss are getting better at defending it. I have like an 80% win rate with 7 pool double spine crawler rush ZVZ.
I was going to write a guide on 7 pooling, maybe I will.
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How do I get the download to work? Every time I click on the link provided by mediafire to download, I either get a refresh of the page or some spammy pop-up.
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using sc2gears your W/L ratio vs p was more like 60% and z 64% >.> and lol at 30% of the terrans you faced losing to this. what did they do 15cc the games they lost?
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On April 11 2011 07:31 CanucksJC wrote:
Umm no... if you scout 6 pool second last or last on 4 player maps, you lose. I'm pretty sure it's unwinnable if you scout last on these huge maps now lol. You scout their base when lings are already in :s
yeah i find thats what makes it so frustrating . i 9 scout just for that reason and it still seems impossible sometimes
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On April 11 2011 07:30 Treadmill wrote:
I knew that as a terran its relatively easier for me to hold off a 6-pool, but I hadn't realized HOW much easier. Any particular reason that you were being so unsuccessful versus T? Were you not trying to drone-block the wall-in then?
No, I wasn't.
There really isn't enough time to get a drone out of your base to scout that early.
With the fastest possible 6pool timing, the second block depot will have started and a marine should almost be ready.
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I think that this shows that Zergs and Protoss are cheating their opponents at a high level. Perhaps the reason why Protoss players are beating Zerg so often in tournaments is because the Zerg players are letting the toss players get away with greedy builds.
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IdrA doesn't hate cheese because it's bad, he hates it because it SHOULD be bad.
It should be a coin toss bad players use to get free wins, but currently it's a legit strategy and random who can micro well can get into high masters with.
It's why there has been so many fading players like bit by bit, people who win one game against a top player, get a fanclub, then die off.
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To those saying it's unwinnable on 4 player maps, I then ask you why don't pros do it more? It is winnable, it just requires a huge deviation and knowledge. Pulling workers until military units are out and running then rather than turning them around has been the best defense I've seen.
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On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords)
and warp gate should require two nexus ...
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It works that well on maps with more than 2 spawn positions? I'm kind of surprised, seems having to guess where they are would make it suck more.
And wouldn't this get owned by a 9/10 pool pretty hard?
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On April 11 2011 07:33 Kira761 wrote:
using sc2gears your W/L ratio vs p was more like 60% and z 64% >.> and lol at 30% of the terrans you faced losing to this. what did they do 15cc the games they lost?
I had to guesstimate, and my guesstimate was based on my overall experience on the way up.
It definitely gets a lot harder to pull off near the top.
Thanks for the fix though.
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Australia8532 Posts
On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are.
"Ruined every elses ladder experience" - are you serious!?!?! That is close to the most RIDICULOUS thing i have ever read on these forums! If you lose to a 6pool the only person responsible for ruining your ladder experience.. IS YOU! You sound really offended over someone 6pooling which to me sounds a little strange.
If you're good enough to be top400 you are good enough to learn how to defend a 6pool; the only person responsible for your laddy experience is YOU
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On April 11 2011 07:32 khchosEN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:28 dacthehork wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. yeah it's a really stupid attitude people have against cheesers. Part of standard play is actually mixing in the extremes. Even Jaedong 4 pools, july won an OSL mainly cheesing, etc. MC with 150,000 in winnings still 4 gates / stargates cheeses a pretty good chunk of his games. Adopting an idra attitude towards cheesing is ridiculous. There are so many non masters that explain "I could just cheese to masters". You actually should cheese to masters and at least learn to execute / implement a decent build order. You still will get a lot of practice refining for instance a 4 warpgate or w.e. build it is. Better practice than floating 500 minerals and massing carriers on one base. Even IdrA 6 pools sometimes
Only when a MU/map is broken in his opinion (like 6 pooling Jinro on JB), or he doesn't value his opponent too much. At least that's the impression that I get.
Say whatever you want towards cheese, but it is one of the reasons people quit this game, loses viewers and whatnot, I'm 90% certain people prefer to see a Dimaga vs MVP game (DC one) or QXC vs Genius Xel'Naga Caverns TSL type of games than a 2 bunker rush into a marine tank all in at 10 minutes SeleCT vs IdrA MLG kind of games, or cannon rushes ZvP.
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On April 11 2011 07:35 Durn wrote:
To those saying it's unwinnable on 4 player maps, I then ask you why don't pros do it more? It is winnable, it just requires a huge deviation and knowledge. Pulling workers until military units are out and running then rather than turning them around has been the best defense I've seen.
its impossible if you scout it last, the other 2 times you get an opportunity to scout its defendable. that means the zerg is like taking a 1/3 chance win. would you take that chance in a tournament?
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And now more zergs will 6pool on ladder...
Imagine how many people are lurking this thread and then imagine how many of those people will tell thier friends about this. T.T
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started watching some of these and some of the rage that ensues is awesome. thanks for the laughs haha
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On April 11 2011 07:35 ThaZenith wrote:
It works that well on maps with more than 2 spawn positions? I'm kind of surprised, seems having to guess where they are would make it suck more.
And wouldn't this get owned by a 9/10 pool pretty hard?
It's hard to say. Sometimes, sometimes not. It depends how the Zerg reacts.
My whole thought process on the 7-pool was not to finish the spine crawler unless it was left basically untouched the entire time.
I slowly whittled the Zerg away while he had a "countdown" in his mind. The counter started again every time the spine crawler was put down. If he started swarming the crawler, I'd pick at his drones/lings, cancel the crawler and drop it 20 feet away again - counter restarted.
The point to this is that the longer he has to worry about that countdown timer, the less he mines minerals since he has to pull drones off. It's definitely a tough position to be in.
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On April 11 2011 07:37 Mephiztopheles1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:32 khchosEN wrote:On April 11 2011 07:28 dacthehork wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. yeah it's a really stupid attitude people have against cheesers. Part of standard play is actually mixing in the extremes. Even Jaedong 4 pools, july won an OSL mainly cheesing, etc. MC with 150,000 in winnings still 4 gates / stargates cheeses a pretty good chunk of his games. Adopting an idra attitude towards cheesing is ridiculous. There are so many non masters that explain "I could just cheese to masters". You actually should cheese to masters and at least learn to execute / implement a decent build order. You still will get a lot of practice refining for instance a 4 warpgate or w.e. build it is. Better practice than floating 500 minerals and massing carriers on one base. Even IdrA 6 pools sometimes Only when a MU/map is broken in his opinion (like 6 pooling Jinro on JB), or he doesn't value his opponent too much. At least that's the impression that I get. Say whatever you want towards cheese, but it is one of the reasons people quit this game, loses viewers and whatnot, I'm 90% certain people prefer to see a Dimaga vs MVP game (DC one) or QXC vs Genius Xel'Naga Caverns TSL type of games than a 2 bunker rush into a marine tank all in at 10 minutes SeleCT vs IdrA MLG kind of games, or cannon rushes ZvP.
That wasn't because he was frustrated with the MU. That was a planned attack on Jinro's style on that specific map. IdrA and Artosis had been studying Jinro's replays and noticed he scouts late and doesn't wall in on JB. It was a calculated attack attempting to take advantage of Jinro's greedy style on that map. But I do agree with the rest of your post.
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You overlord scout one base and drone scout the other, only leaving one base unknown.
Also, I'm saying it's almost unwinnable, because even if you have a zealot, you'll STILL be running around chasing zerglings. A smart zerg will try to snipe the pylon supporting gateway, snipe probes and keep running around while droning at home.
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On April 11 2011 07:36 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are. "Ruined every elses ladder experience" - are you serious!?!?! That is close to the most RIDICULOUS thing i have ever read on these forums! If you lose to a 6pool the only person responsible for ruining your ladder experience.. IS YOU! You sound really offended over someone 6pooling which to me sounds a little strange. If you're good enough to be top400 you are good enough to learn how to defend a 6pool; the only person responsible for your laddy experience is YOU
While it's true that top400 should know how to stop a 6 pool...your opponents are more than capable of ruining your ladder experience. YOU only have control over which builds you choose to do in response to what your opponent does. If for some reason, in some hypothetical world, all of the people you went up against in ladder cheesed, you could certainly stop it but would it be fun? I'd pretty much consider my ladder experience ruined.
That said, I'm not surprised at the OP. It's no new development that cheese works at the highest levels of play against opponents that are unprepared for it. Combine that with a ladder that tends to match you up against different people every time until the very top levels of play and you have a recipe for cheesy success.
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On April 11 2011 07:25 Zerokaiser wrote:
If a Protoss player is in the top 400 and hasn't learned how to safeguard themselves from 6pool, they deserve to lose.
Lets be realistic here.... i do believe that july zerg beat anypro with a 7 pool in GSL round of 4.. Saying that a 6 pool is easily held is kind of silly, first off you need to 9 scout and if you are on a 4 player map you will have alot of trouble, then it all comes down to micro.. So blank sayings about how people at x skill level are not acceptable, i mean there are still threads about builds that people learned how to beat 4 months ago, why because they are hard to scout and it is situational. 6-7 pooling can also kind of be transitioned out of (kind of lol). But really it is a nice way to get some build order wins if someone say 13 scouts on a 4player map or trys to do something risky, i.e forge fast expand.
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On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are.
i think he's just putting himself out there as an example. results speak for themselves.
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I might start doing this on the ladder to see how good it is in platinum leauge.
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On April 11 2011 07:37 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:35 Durn wrote:
To those saying it's unwinnable on 4 player maps, I then ask you why don't pros do it more? It is winnable, it just requires a huge deviation and knowledge. Pulling workers until military units are out and running then rather than turning them around has been the best defense I've seen. its impossible if you scout it last, the other 2 times you get an opportunity to scout its defendable. that means the zerg is like taking a 1/3 chance win. would you take that chance in a tournament?
A lot of players send out a second probe scout if the first base they scout doesn't contain the zerg, watching the GSL Tastosis explains it as 'having to know what the zerg is doing', which, if the numbers given in this thread are accurate, makes sense. The truth is, even as a top 400 player, the onus to defend a 6 pool is more punitive than the relative economy loss (granted you set your opponent back via the need to respond) of a 6 pool.
The cheese options in ZvP are heavily Z favored, especially since there is a lot of time for a Z to scout a 4+ gate and respond given the size of most of the maps nowadays and I would agree something should be done about it, I've met my share of players on the ladder with 1-2k+ games (high diamond low masters) and it appears all they do is quick pool ling/drone rush. Should a rating in that range be ably acquired with a 3 minute game?
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On April 11 2011 07:31 CanucksJC wrote:
Umm no... if you scout 6 pool second last or last on 4 player maps, you lose. I'm pretty sure it's unwinnable if you scout last on these huge maps now lol. You scout their base when lings are already in :s
Last time I got 6pooled was by a random player on Tal darim. I scouted him last position. Lings were in my base before I even knew he was zerg. I was still able to win.
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In my experience of rage 6pooling (going on a losing streak or being frustrated and not wanting to play a macro game), is that it is even more frustrating when you 6pool and it gets held. I'd rather lose a macro game and feel like that loss was a real loss, rather than sit there and wonder if I could've beat that guy in a macro game. Basically what I'm saying is the satisfaction from a successful 6pool is not equivalent to the frustration of an unsuccessful one.
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Those are some interesting games you played. Have any Terran players ever bitbybit.prime(marine+SCV all ins) their way up the NA ladder?
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How often did you lose a ZvZ if the zerg went hatch first? (including if he scouted your lings and canceled/just didnt put it down)
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On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. Lol ya I tend to get pretty angry when I lose to cheese. I am much more experienced vs 6 pool now though, so I challenge you to a 6 pool rematch whenever! My rage is never a personal attack of hatred, just me venting my frustration. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS)
Ahaha exactly my thoughts. Might as well remove supply depot requirement before rax as well, and revert the build time of forge again, that way you have to be on the edge vs all races and not just zerg! :D It's so stupid, Dustin Browder can be a good manager, but sometimes... oh boy.
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On April 11 2011 07:15 rottenpotato wrote:
My MMR at the end sat at at around 3800-3900.
that is not your MMR
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I have been telling zergs that 6 pool is something that they should really do, but they think that I'm just trolling. It can be an easy insta win and even if they scout it you can still win.
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On April 11 2011 07:49 Belegurth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:15 rottenpotato wrote:
My MMR at the end sat at at around 3800-3900. that is not your MMR
MMR is the rating that is used to to pit you against the MMR of other players. It's pretty safe to say that if I was continuously playing people at 3800-3900 normal rating, it's safe to say their mmr is very close to their normal rating as they are near the top of the mountain.
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I used gears to analyze the replays--your actual winrate was only 53%, 60% against P and 66% against Z. Only 28% against T. This assumes you 6-pooled every game in the pack. So really high for top of NA masters', but hardly "90%. Average game length 5:47...less than BBB!
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I'll have to say that'll never work vs me In all fairness it seems to have a really high win percent and you can't argue with that for a couple of minute games. Personally i've never had a problem with 6/7 pools playing Toss i find 10 pools to be so much harder to hold off
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@op wat was your rank before doing the one weel of 6pooling?
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On April 11 2011 07:35 Art_of_Kill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords) and warp gate should require two nexus ...
or a pylon maybe... hm...
as protoss player I feel it's heavily depending on the map and the spawn positions... on 2 player maps i always scout after the pylon and usually manage to somehow wall off before the zerglings get to me... but if you scout the wrong way around on a 4 player map you pretty much fucked.
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On April 11 2011 07:30 Treadmill wrote:
I knew that as a terran its relatively easier for me to hold off a 6-pool, but I hadn't realized HOW much easier. Any particular reason that you were being so unsuccessful versus T? Were you not trying to drone-block the wall-in then?
Terrans wall off better against zerg with a hard wall in. If the terran scouts, then it's up by the time zerg gets there.
Terrans are very weak against baneling bust. Jinro lost to it twice in the TSL. Personally, I don't know why zergs don't bling bust more often.
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Well seeing as how ActionJesuz can pull off 6 pools at the semi-pro/pro level, I'm not at all surprised at this.
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On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. Lol ya I tend to get pretty angry when I lose to cheese. I am much more experienced vs 6 pool now though, so I challenge you to a 6 pool rematch whenever! My rage is never a personal attack of hatred, just me venting my frustration. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS)
2 overlords makes little difference if you 7 pool... 7 drones, pool, drone, overlord, and still 3 larva and 150 minerals when pool is done
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hey rotten
we played but it was a real game =)
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Some funny rage going on in those replays! I always wanted to earn some zerg icons on my account maybe I'll do this too while hitting masters as well.
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we should start a 6/7pool movement. do it every match until blizzard patches it. :p
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I'm 100% not surprised about it with toss surprised you didn't switch to a baneling bust with terran though you might be a grandmaster soon then :p
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On April 11 2011 07:55 Like a Boss wrote:
@op wat was your rank before doing the one weel of 6pooling?
I think ~1500-1600? It's not that I can't play at the top400-500 level, it's that I didn't have time to really play the second half of last season.
To the guys about the win/loss ratio - again, it was my overall experience and assumptions on the ratios. It got very skewed towards the last ~50-100 games. It got harder and harder to come near the end and it skewed the results. If you were to take the first half of the replays vs the last half, it should show a notable difference. (should)
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On April 11 2011 07:49 Apolo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. Lol ya I tend to get pretty angry when I lose to cheese. I am much more experienced vs 6 pool now though, so I challenge you to a 6 pool rematch whenever! My rage is never a personal attack of hatred, just me venting my frustration. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) Ahaha exactly my thoughts. Might as well remove supply depot requirement before rax as well, and revert the build time of forge again, that way you have to be on the edge vs all races and not just zerg! :D It's so stupid, Dustin Browder can be a good manager, but sometimes... oh boy.
Just scout extremely early vs zerg.
I do it every time I go up against a zerg or random.
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Australia8532 Posts
On April 11 2011 07:39 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:36 bkrow wrote:On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are. "Ruined every elses ladder experience" - are you serious!?!?! That is close to the most RIDICULOUS thing i have ever read on these forums! If you lose to a 6pool the only person responsible for ruining your ladder experience.. IS YOU! You sound really offended over someone 6pooling which to me sounds a little strange. If you're good enough to be top400 you are good enough to learn how to defend a 6pool; the only person responsible for your laddy experience is YOU While it's true that top400 should know how to stop a 6 pool...your opponents are more than capable of ruining your ladder experience. YOU only have control over which builds you choose to do in response to what your opponent does. If for some reason, in some hypothetical world, all of the people you went up against in ladder cheesed, you could certainly stop it but would it be fun? I'd pretty much consider my ladder experience ruined. That said, I'm not surprised at the OP. It's no new development that cheese works at the highest levels of play against opponents that are unprepared for it. Combine that with a ladder that tends to match you up against different people every time until the very top levels of play and you have a recipe for cheesy success.
I am not saying that your ladder experience won't be ruined; i am saying you are the only one responsible for this. You are responsible for every game you lose; people constantly look for everyone/thing else to blame when they lose games - balance, maps, oh he cheesed me - the real answer is simple.. BE BETTER ..
If you learn how to counter cheese you would be winning every game and your ladder experience would be amazing; how come we are so proud of ourselves when we win, but when we lose it is someone elses fault?
Anyway; cheese has always worked at a high level and is an important part of the game particularly in a Bo3/5/7 etc where you need your play to remain unpredictable. We have seen the best players in the world cheese in the middle of a series or when they sense it is appropriate
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On April 11 2011 08:01 sermokala wrote:
I'm 100% not surprised about it with toss surprised you didn't switch to a baneling bust with terran though you might be a grandmaster soon then :p
Hehe nah I'm done with the rushing. As for this season I'm still practising on my secondary account (yogurtpop) before I move on to try for top 200. Trying new builds/styles.
I'm really enjoying the Spanishiwa-style build currently and is definitely going to be my favoured opening vs both Terran and Protoss. With the rolling economy it's almost impossible for P to stop (T still gives up a few problems.)
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ZvZ. Just do 7 pool lings + drones all-in and build 1-2 spines. It is extremly hard to hold off with any 14+ pool build. Much better than 6 pool.
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I have two problems with this, First how do you know what your MMR are is as it is not something you can look at and not displayed, Second how do you have a bonus pool of 1800 when bonus' pools were reset for season 2 and there is no way someone has 1800 bonus pool already when it is roughly one point per 2 hours in your bonus pool.
early pools on ladder might work or catch players off guard but if you have longing for becoming a solid player that can attend or do well in tournament you will want to expand your horizons and practice solid fundamental builds and macro.
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On April 11 2011 07:33 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:31 CanucksJC wrote:
Umm no... if you scout 6 pool second last or last on 4 player maps, you lose. I'm pretty sure it's unwinnable if you scout last on these huge maps now lol. You scout their base when lings are already in :s yeah i find thats what makes it so frustrating . i 9 scout just for that reason and it still seems impossible sometimes
Yeah, but if you 6/7 pool, you can't really drone scout as your lings will be late.
Also, you need to send your drone out like immidiatly for tal-darim and the other big ones.
That's why I like xel-naga, it was practicly designed for 7 pooling, as soon as your lings are done , your overlord scouts the close position, and if he's not there, you go to the cross positions. and if it is zerg, you spot the creep right when you send your first drone about.
see, the large maps, it's still stupid to 7 pool, I never do it on scrap because of the distances, even if I can see everything they are doing and there's no way they can wall off.
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thats very very awesome. im not even joking. if i were you i would mix in some other cheeses and become the next action jezus
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Having gotten past the bronze-level 6-pool, I was stunned when I lost three times in a row to it on ladder. I then asked a Zerg friend to do nothing but 6/7 pool me for an hour and a half, eventually getting to "worst case" scenarios (4 player map, scouted the wrong direction, he "guesses" the right spawn location). On the worst case on most maps, the probe would generally arrive right as Zerglings were 1/4-1/2 way done, which was pretty much always enough time to react and at least hold. The main difference was playability afterward; my Zerg buddy was generally at a disadvantage, but this ranged from "absolutely dead" to "an awkward but still playable spot" depending on how much damage he managed to do. I could see it being very potent on large maps like Tal Darim if the Zerg gets lucky, however.
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So what's the best way to stop this as protoss? I know you can put a forge and completely wall off+ cannon, but that sometimes backfires as it allows the zerg to get even or close in economy.
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On April 11 2011 07:55 TurtlePerson2 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:30 Treadmill wrote:
I knew that as a terran its relatively easier for me to hold off a 6-pool, but I hadn't realized HOW much easier. Any particular reason that you were being so unsuccessful versus T? Were you not trying to drone-block the wall-in then? Terrans wall off better against zerg with a hard wall in. If the terran scouts, then it's up by the time zerg gets there. Terrans are very weak against baneling bust. Jinro lost to it twice in the TSL. Personally, I don't know why zergs don't bling bust more often.
The busts that Jinro lost to in tsl weren't cheesy one base baneling busts, Morrow saw that Jinro went cc first or rax cc (forget which) and decided to go all-in baneling on two base with like 35 drones. It's a reactive build that takes into account that your opponent really can't have siege tech done in time (because of the gas delay) and likely won't have enough bunkers in time to stop it. I never start a zvt saying that I'm going to go all-in baneling on two base but if my drone sees no gas and I sack that overlord and see they're going rax cc rax rax and delaying gas then it's a no brainer to do that, you'll win 95% of the time. This style first got popular with kyrix in gsl season 2 and I believe Nestea won finals games doing it. The build that was popular in the beta was (I believe) like a 14 gas, 14 pool, fast ling speed straight into banelings on one base. It's really not a very good build as early pressure builds like 2 rax or reactored hellion (probably the two most popular tvz openings) do well against it.
6 pool is bad against terran because if terran has even a little warning they can depot wall off (90% of terrans wall themselves initially against z anyway) and then they can indefinitely repair the wall while marines trickle out of the rax and shoot the lings from behind the safety of the wall.
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In my experience of rage 6pooling (going on a losing streak or being frustrated and not wanting to play a macro game), is that it is even more frustrating when you 6pool and it gets held. I'd rather lose a macro game and feel like that loss was a real loss, rather than sit there and wonder if I could've beat that guy in a macro game. Basically what I'm saying is the satisfaction from a successful 6pool is not equivalent to the frustration of an unsuccessful one.
this. That's why I stopped doing these and the wzp build. When they don't work and you watch the replay sometimes your like woooow why didn't I just play him.
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Very interesting way to go about spending your bonus pool. I would have never thought about it.
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On April 11 2011 08:09 AndAgain wrote:
So what's the best way to stop this as protoss? I know you can put a forge and completely wall off+ cannon, but that sometimes backfires as it allows the zerg to get even or close in economy.
1. You need to scout at 9 no matter what.
2. On 4 player maps like Shattered Temple/Metalopolis, you need to position your probe at the right timing to see his overlord fly toward your nexus. He's not going to let you know if he's close by air if he can help it. If you don't know he's close-by-air, he's going to be the last place you scout (because of Battle.Net ladder maps not removing close-by-ground positions). This knowledge he has vs the knowledge you have already gives him a 95% chance to win.
3. You basically need a forge. You need a forge and to chrono your first zealot hard. Not only that, but you need to have your zealot come out on the inside of your base and protect that cannon. If the cannon finishes and you have a zealot and a few probes, he can't break it(If this happens, I left. There were a few instances when photons did finish and I kept streaming/killing them and came out ahead, but they were few and far between)
Kiwikaki was the only Protoss able to hold it off without a forge. Granted I found him last and he scouted it early, he bested me. We ended up base-racing with him killing my base with zealots and kiting my ...~16 lings with 1 stalker. Nothing I could do about that one
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On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS)
WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord.
Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main"
The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro.
User was warned for this post
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Dunno how a Protoss would lose to a 6 pool (unless they went for a forward Gateway at the nat instead of the main ramp). The second I see and confirm that a 6 pool just popped up, I throw down 2 gateways when I have the minerals and save up all chrono boosts for zealots and finish up my wall.
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On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro.
It's really not. It's very, very hard to hold off, if not impossible, if all you have is workers.
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On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord.
Lemme just call you out on that. You're completely incorrect. Allow me to show you why with the 14/14 build order.
9 Overlord
14 Gas
14 Pool
Oh wait, what was that? It seems you built an Overlord. Whoops! Looks like that puts you at a count of two Overlords before the gas and pool went down. Only way you're doing 14/14 with one Overlord is if you build Extractors at your main and nat and then cancel them all. Not even sure if that will work, you'll have to have a larva spawn before you cancel the Extractors.
Now, I see the mistake you made. You were thinking "second Ovie BUILT," not "second Ovie TOTAL." Please be courteous when you're trying to correct someone's error, otherwise you end up looking like a jerk if you're right and stupid and uninformed if you're wrong.
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On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro.
??? He means the second overlord, not the second built overlord. (meaning you can't do a 6-10 pool). I'm not saying I'm for or against it, but I think you read it completely wrong.
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Action Jesus proved that the six pool can win games vs pros at dream hack, even when scouted 2nd. I'm not sure why people like to insist that it is trivial to hold off and only a noob would lose to it, maybe they are used to seeing it done by players with poor micro? Vs protoss in particular it is solid cheese to have at your disposal.
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On April 11 2011 08:16 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro. It's really not. It's very, very hard to hold off, if not impossible, if all you have is workers.
Rofl. You are misinformed. Worker drills make 6 pools a joke. While it was an 8 pool, Tosyad vs Fruitdealer demonstrates this. Fruitdealer had only 14 drones, cause he went hatch first. I don't believe he lost a single drone.
I've done it plenty of times myself. You can do one of two things: you can go for a surround using a worker drill, or you can just run in circles until your zealot/cannon completes. If the opponent attacks the probes, you run. If he attacks the gateway/cannon/pylon, you poke and run as soon as he changes targets.
EDIT:
On April 11 2011 08:21 SONE wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro. ??? He means the second overlord, not the second built overlord. (meaning you can't do a 6-10 pool). I'm not saying I'm for or against it, but I think you read it completely wrong.
My mistake. I see now.
I still think it's an incredibly dumb proposition, however.
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On April 11 2011 08:22 tarath wrote:
Action Jesus proved that the six pool can win games vs pros at dream hack, even when scouted 2nd. I'm not sure why people like to insist that it is trivial to hold off and only a noob would lose to it, maybe they are used to seeing it done by players with poor micro?
This could be it. It's definitely not an a-move strat. I've had 6pools last up to 9-10 minutes, believe it or not.
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On April 11 2011 08:23 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:16 rottenpotato wrote:On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro. It's really not. It's very, very hard to hold off, if not impossible, if all you have is workers. Rofl. You are misinformed. Worker drills make 6 pools a joke. While it was an 8 pool, Tosyad vs Fruitdealer demonstrates this. Fruitdealer had only 14 drones, cause he went hatch first. I don't believe he lost a single drone. I've done it plenty of times myself. You can do one of two things: you can go for a surround using a worker drill, or you can just run in circles until your zealot/cannon completes. If the opponent attacks the probes, you run. If he attacks the gateway/cannon/pylon, you poke and run as soon as he changes targets.
I hate to start shit, but I'm the one who posted the replay pack. I think I know what happens in 6-7 pools
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Australia8532 Posts
On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro.
Lol you know you start with an overlord right - so when you build one you have a total of two overlords. Meaning you completely misinterpreted Whiplash's statement
edit: so ninja'd lol :p
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On April 11 2011 08:23 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:16 rottenpotato wrote:On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro. It's really not. It's very, very hard to hold off, if not impossible, if all you have is workers. Rofl. You are misinformed. Worker drills make 6 pools a joke. While it was an 8 pool, Tosyad vs Fruitdealer demonstrates this. Fruitdealer had only 14 drones, cause he went hatch first. I don't believe he lost a single drone. I've done it plenty of times myself. You can do one of two things: you can go for a surround using a worker drill, or you can just run in circles until your zealot/cannon completes. If the opponent attacks the probes, you run. If he attacks the gateway/cannon/pylon, you poke and run as soon as he changes targets.
That sounds like a surefire solution if he magically has all his lings in 1 control group so that he can't attack your probes and your pylon at the same time.
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On April 11 2011 08:20 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Lemme just call you out on that. You're completely incorrect. Allow me to show you why with the 14/14 build order. 9 Overlord 14 Gas 14 Pool Oh wait, what was that? It seems you built an Overlord. Whoops! Looks like that puts you at a count of two Overlords before the gas and pool went down. Only way you're doing 14/14 with one Overlord is if you build Extractors at your main and nat and then cancel them all. Not even sure if that will work, you'll have to have a larva spawn before you cancel the Extractors. Now, I see the mistake you made. You were thinking "second Ovie BUILT," not "second Ovie TOTAL." Please be courteous when you're trying to correct someone's error, otherwise you end up looking like a jerk if you're right and stupid and uninformed if you're wrong.
Okay, you're right. But let's not seriously validate the claim that 6/7/8/or 9 pools should be just eliminated from the game. It's a cheese. It's a cheese just like rushed proxy stargate play is a cheese just like proxy gates are cheese just like cannon rushing is cheese. Cheese promotes good scouting, because without scouting you lose, and if you scout and respond correctly, you'll win 100% percent of the time. There is 0 deviation between a master level 6 pool and a grand master level 6 pool. Learn to scout it, and you'll get yourself some free points.
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I have a question, which build is actually more effective in ZvP, 6 pool or 7 pool? I was always curious. I know 7 pool comes ~7 seconds later, but you have enough cash to start 3 sets of lings as opposed to 2. And considering the large map sizes, does that 7 seconds really matter?
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I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent.
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On April 11 2011 08:26 teamsolid wrote:
I have a question, which build is actually more effective in ZvP, 6 pool or 7 pool? I was always curious. I know 7 pool comes ~7 seconds later, but you have enough cash to start 3 sets of lings as opposed to 2. And considering the large map sizes, does that 7 seconds really matter?
I found the 6 was better overall against P. You don't need that 7th drone at all. The timing works out so that you have exactly 150 minerals when your spawning pool finishes. You usually find yourself absolutely drenched in minerals after 2 minutes.
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On April 11 2011 08:24 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:23 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 08:16 rottenpotato wrote:On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro. It's really not. It's very, very hard to hold off, if not impossible, if all you have is workers. Rofl. You are misinformed. Worker drills make 6 pools a joke. While it was an 8 pool, Tosyad vs Fruitdealer demonstrates this. Fruitdealer had only 14 drones, cause he went hatch first. I don't believe he lost a single drone. I've done it plenty of times myself. You can do one of two things: you can go for a surround using a worker drill, or you can just run in circles until your zealot/cannon completes. If the opponent attacks the probes, you run. If he attacks the gateway/cannon/pylon, you poke and run as soon as he changes targets. I hate to start shit, but I'm the one who posted the replay pack. I think I know what happens in 6-7 pools
Just because people lost to you doing a 6 pool, doesn't mean it's actually hard to hold off. Most people who play SC2 don't know how to stop cheese (which is why there's always so much rage about 4 gate, proxy gate, 6 pool, 8 pool, proxy rax, cannon rush, etc. etc.)
That sounds like a surefire solution if he magically has all his lings in 1 control group so that he can't attack your probes and your pylon at the same time.
?? I don't understand this.
You'll have 12-14 workers when the 6 pool hits, depending on the map. He'll have 6 lings. If he splits his lings, then he's going to lose, simply because you will seriously outnumber whichever group is closest to your workers.
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lol how to stop this 6pool with terran?
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You'll have 12-14 workers when the 6 pool hits, depending on the map. He'll have 6 lings. If he splits his lings, then he's going to lose, simply because you will seriously outnumber whichever group is closest to your workers.
The idea is that you keep them off mining while your army size gets bigger and bigger.
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On April 11 2011 08:30 ShynZ wrote:
lol how to stop this 6pool with terran?
Wall in?
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On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent.
It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting.
Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important.
Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate.
Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout as frequently as we do, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better.
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that 85-95 vs P seems kinda unreal for me.. how much do you win against P who forge expands? I can't believe you would win a single game for example at shakuras if P goes for forge first and then adds gate+gate to complete wallin when he scouts your 7 pool.
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Doesn't a 6 pool auto lose when it's cross position on a large map?
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And considering the large map sizes, does that 7 seconds really matter?
A huge deal when it comes to 6/7 pools. 7 seconds of extra cannon fire is almost 6 extra shots (3 zerglings/drones dead), or the difference between a 25/25 pylon and a 75/75 pylon.
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On April 11 2011 08:28 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:26 teamsolid wrote:
I have a question, which build is actually more effective in ZvP, 6 pool or 7 pool? I was always curious. I know 7 pool comes ~7 seconds later, but you have enough cash to start 3 sets of lings as opposed to 2. And considering the large map sizes, does that 7 seconds really matter? I found the 6 was better overall against P. You don't need that 7th drone at all. The timing works out so that you have exactly 150 minerals when your spawning pool finishes. You usually find yourself absolutely drenched in minerals after 2 minutes.
That's not true at least in the 2-3 reps I've watched from the pack.
You ended up with ~100 minerals as the pool finished each time since you made an overlord, so could only start 2 sets of lings which finish at ~2:10. The next ling starts 15 secs later end finishes at ~2:25.
Meanwhile with a 7 pool, you actually end up with exactly 150 minerals as the pool finishes and all 6 hatch at ~2:18 from my own test.
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On April 11 2011 08:31 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +
You'll have 12-14 workers when the 6 pool hits, depending on the map. He'll have 6 lings. If he splits his lings, then he's going to lose, simply because you will seriously outnumber whichever group is closest to your workers.
The idea is that you keep them off mining while your army size gets bigger and bigger.
This still doesn't make sense, lol.
The idea to defend a 6 pool is to stall until your zealot comes out. In ZvZ, it's the first batch of lings. In TvZ, it's the first marine into the bunker. In PvZ you just have to stall for about 20 seconds and you're done; most P players lose in that time frame because they don't know how to worker drill/stall for time or they forget to protect their pylon. Most T players will win because it takes very little micro to get the marine into the bunker, and it's almost impossible for the 6 pool to win after the bunker is up. Most Z players lose for the same reasons P players lose, minus the pylon, obviously.
As I play random, I get a lot of 6/8 pools because people don't like playing against randoms. I also get cannon rushed and proxy gated a lot, so whenever I see cheese it's almost like an auto-win now.
EDIT: The hardest to hold is the 6 pool with drones. I've held that as P plenty of times, as I only go FFE/nexus first against Z. I think with a gate first it'd probably be pretty damn hard to hold, though.
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Cheeses and all-ins are just really good in SC2 in general, and, as a rule, a lot more difficult to defend than to execute. Dustin Browder and his team wanted to make the early game really exciting for you, so appreciate their effort.
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What I find so frustrating when playing PvZ is that the build orders to block fast pools put you way behind vs a zerg that macro's. Once the 1st lings are out you can't scout and know when the zerg starts droning. I've had zergs early pool and make just 2 lings to kill my probe then go into macro mode. It takes so much time to get out Zealots to stop the amount of lings that can come out. Pretty scary that you got that high up with it though
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On April 11 2011 08:32 ondik wrote:
that 85-95 vs P seems kinda unreal for me.. how much do you win against P who forge expands? I can't believe you would win a single game for example at shakuras if P goes for forge first and then adds gate+gate to complete wallin when he scouts your 7 pool.
As the guy above corrected me, it was more like 60-65% win ratio. But most of the P losses were towards the end. It's fair to say it's around 50% vs P at 3500-3900, and 90-95% from 1500-3500.
If he forge fast expands first he basically loses. It's impossible to block off the entire area in time. 6 lings on a photon cannon is a dead photon cannon.
On April 11 2011 08:32 blazingblue16 wrote:
Doesn't a 6 pool auto lose when it's cross position on a large map?
Definitely not.
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On April 11 2011 08:35 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:28 rottenpotato wrote:On April 11 2011 08:26 teamsolid wrote:
I have a question, which build is actually more effective in ZvP, 6 pool or 7 pool? I was always curious. I know 7 pool comes ~7 seconds later, but you have enough cash to start 3 sets of lings as opposed to 2. And considering the large map sizes, does that 7 seconds really matter? I found the 6 was better overall against P. You don't need that 7th drone at all. The timing works out so that you have exactly 150 minerals when your spawning pool finishes. You usually find yourself absolutely drenched in minerals after 2 minutes. That's not true at least in the 2-3 reps I've watched from the pack. You ended up with ~100 minerals as the pool finished each time since you made an overlord, so could only start 2 sets of lings which finish at ~2:10. The next ling starts 15 secs later end finishes at ~2:25. Meanwhile with a 7 pool, you actually end up with exactly 150 minerals as the pool finishes and all 6 hatch at ~2:18 from my own test.
Sorry I meant the 7pool, I got my rushes mixed up.
You're right, 4 lings at the start. If he built a forge, which he should have if he wants any chance to win, it will be in the front to help block. There is room for 4 lings to hit it unless his positioning is utterly terrible. You want to hit that forge as soon and as hard as you can.
As the max room is 4 lings, the 6 is better overall as you get that little extra window of damage done against it.
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On April 11 2011 08:36 Reborn8u wrote:
What I find so frustrating when playing PvZ is that the build orders to block fast pools put you way behind vs a zerg that macro's. Once the 1st lings are out you can't scout and know when the zerg starts droning. I've had zergs early pool and make just 2 lings to kill my probe then go into macro mode. It takes so much time to get out Zealots to stop the amount of lings that can come out. Pretty scary that you got that high up with it though
Whenever I scout a 6pool and I didn't go forge first I just complete my walloff with a forge and another pylon and make a cannon asap, and stop making probes so you can re-walloff. As soon as the cannon finishes just continue on as normal. If you went forge first then the zerg just lost
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I'm combining this with saying "corrupter brood lord ultralisk" at the beginning of every game. I haven't lost one yet!
EDIT: Also, you can have 150 mins with a 6-pool
6 OV scout close-air
6 pool
5 drone
6 drone (scout close-pos if its 4-player)
7 @100% pool, 150 minerals, 3 lings
10 extractor (trick)
10 zergling
10 cancel extractor
11 OV
lings until they hold it off
queen
drones
16 OV
~20 gas
~25 expo
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On April 11 2011 08:36 rottenpotato wrote:
It's impossible to block off the entire area in time. .
I'm no so sure about that, as a toss if you stop making probes as soon as you see it coming you should have the money to make 2 gates and a cannon
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On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better.
The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill.
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On April 11 2011 07:31 CanucksJC wrote:
Umm no... if you scout 6 pool second last or last on 4 player maps, you lose. I'm pretty sure it's unwinnable if you scout last on these huge maps now lol. You scout their base when lings are already in :s
I usually do the bisu style double probe scout, was pretty much able to block early pools with pylons/gateways/etc by seeing lings halfway across the map with my second probe. Even if you were banking that money for an FE its not like you are any more behind than they are.
The advantage of a big ass 4 player map is your buildings will be warped in earlier so its still easier to defend.
At least you can perfect wall easily in SC2, in BW there was basically nothing you could do unless you were stork.
On April 11 2011 08:42 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better. The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill.
IMO I'd rather face a 6 pool as Protoss than a 4 warpgate as Terran because it is basically the same as a proxy 4 gate in BW without the disadvantages, and that shit was almost unbeatable. Now you can't even defend with 1 siege tank and a bunker so the example is tantamount to how ridiculous the build actually is and the reason why Terrans 1 base so much.
6 pool only that effective in BO1 where most of the matches aren't 6 pool, and I haven't faced a 6 pool in yonks, so it's not actually a problem. If all zergs 6 pooled you wouldn't get the same winrate, in fact you would get the opposite, it would basically be auto-lose, so all the zergs would stop doing it anyway.
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On April 11 2011 08:42 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better. The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill.
All the more reason Blizzard should remove close spawns on 4 player maps entirely, to be honest.
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On April 11 2011 08:45 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:42 Acritter wrote:On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better. The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill. All the more reason Blizzard should remove close spawns on 4 player maps entirely, to be honest.
While I agree entirely with the removal with close position spawning, it won't help. The games that were the hardest to win were the ones that were close by ground. You get scouted first.
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On April 11 2011 08:36 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:31 rottenpotato wrote:
You'll have 12-14 workers when the 6 pool hits, depending on the map. He'll have 6 lings. If he splits his lings, then he's going to lose, simply because you will seriously outnumber whichever group is closest to your workers.
The idea is that you keep them off mining while your army size gets bigger and bigger. This still doesn't make sense, lol. The idea to defend a 6 pool is to stall until your zealot comes out. In ZvZ, it's the first batch of lings. In TvZ, it's the first marine into the bunker. In PvZ you just have to stall for about 20 seconds and you're done; most P players lose in that time frame because they don't know how to worker drill/stall for time or they forget to protect their pylon. Most T players will win because it takes very little micro to get the marine into the bunker, and it's almost impossible for the 6 pool to win after the bunker is up. Most Z players lose for the same reasons P players lose, minus the pylon, obviously. As I play random, I get a lot of 6/8 pools because people don't like playing against randoms. I also get cannon rushed and proxy gated a lot, so whenever I see cheese it's almost like an auto-win now. EDIT: The hardest to hold is the 6 pool with drones. I've held that as P plenty of times, as I only go FFE/nexus first against Z. I think with a gate first it'd probably be pretty damn hard to hold, though.
One Zealot doesn't end the Zergling harass.
On April 11 2011 08:36 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:32 ondik wrote:
that 85-95 vs P seems kinda unreal for me.. how much do you win against P who forge expands? I can't believe you would win a single game for example at shakuras if P goes for forge first and then adds gate+gate to complete wallin when he scouts your 7 pool. If he forge fast expands first he basically loses. It's impossible to block off the entire area in time. 6 lings on a photon cannon is a dead photon cannon.
BW Protoss know how to defeat pool cheese with a forge opening.
You do not expand. You do not save your forge. You do not cannon your natural.
You build a pylon in your main, near your nexus, and protect it with your probes. You then build a cannon in your mineral line, and protect it with your probes. (Your forge will not be dead yet.)
Once that is done, you are at a massive economic advantage and have a safe mineral line; the primary drawback is that you have no tech. So you start building buildings and play the rest of the game at an advantage.
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On April 11 2011 08:42 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better. The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill.
Yes but open the replay pack. Of the people who A) Scouted him if Protoss or Zerg and B)knew how to respond to a 6/7 pool: how many lost?
I'd have to think less than 1% of all Protoss players who TRULY know how to fend off a 6 pool, scout it, and still lose. It'd be from some weird lag thing and disconnects most likely.
Also: you can't bar Terran, your upper boundary outlier unless you also bar Protoss. Leaving you with ZvZ which isn't a 6 pool and any build well executed will produce a tad over 50% results, so there isn't a problem there.
When Terran first started doing 2 Rax All-Ins, it had over a 80% win rate against Zergs. Zergs simply didn't know how to handle it. The problem is most people don't play 6 pools in ladder that much, so they're not prepared because they haven't been conditioned to that early of a cheese since they were in bronze.
Also: you aren't necessarily seeing a short game after you see a 6 pool. I wish I could find the replays, but trust me: if you kill the zealot, and you kill like 6 probes, he's only 2 workers up, and it can easily become a macro game from there.
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On April 11 2011 08:47 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:45 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 11 2011 08:42 Acritter wrote:On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better. The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill. All the more reason Blizzard should remove close spawns on 4 player maps entirely, to be honest. While I agree entirely with the removal with close position spawning, it won't help. The games that were the hardest to win were the ones that were close by ground. You get scouted first.
Well, my thinking is that you send probe to scout far and you check to see if the overlord is coming in from the close by air, redirecting your probe if needed - since you don't need to check close by ground, the first place you scout will be elsewhere and even though your probe arrives a little later, so will the zerglings.
Anyhow close positions suck no matter what.
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Yeah, as a toss it's not easy holding off early pools. Like, if you scout zerg last, your dead. On maps like meta and LT you have to hope they're idiots and show you their overlord.
I actually had to sit down with a friend and have him 6/7 pool me for a ton of games. I eventually got it down, but it's still not easy if you scout last. It's even funnier if you have a pylon on the low-ground LOL
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I don't have a problem with cheese every once in a while. Also, I can't blame a player for taking advantage of a problem with the game. I just wouldn't have any respect for someone who cheesed their way up to a very high ladder rank (except for the OP, because he said he doesn't normally play like that)
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I suspect the build has that sort of winrate at the high levels right now precisely because it is so rare. When I was in high platinum, I got 6 pooled quite frequently, so I adjusted my build to stop it (earlier scouting, etc.). I think the fact that me and others do that at that point means that if you just 6 pool every game, you can't get higher than that. What that means, though, is that people who 6 pool every game hit a ceiling and at the high masters level people very rarely 6 pool. As a result, people don't expect it and find it better to optimize their play for facing other builds. The way it works with these things is that there's an equilibrium point. If 6 pools happen in less than 1% of games, it's not worth it to carefully prepare for them so they do very well. If they happen in 50% of games, everyone is very careful about them and they never win. Somewhere in between is the equilibrium where they win roughly as frequently as everything else that's being done. The fact that this has such a high win rate shows that it's occurring at below-equilibrium frequency right now (possibly because people who do it frequently aren't able to get into the player pool of high masters). It doesn't mean that the bulid will always have the sort of win rate it did in this sample. If the equilibrium turns out to have people doing it in a huge portion of games, then that's a problem that needs a balance patch to fix, but my guess is that the equilibrium actually isn't that high.
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On April 11 2011 08:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:
IMO I'd rather face a 6 pool as Protoss than a 4 warpgate as Terran because it is basically the same as a proxy 4 gate in BW without the disadvantages.
Except with nerfed dragoons with free range upgrade and buffed marines with free range upgrade and nerfed SCVs and buffed bunkers. And Marauders and Sentries. And bunker salvage allowing more profligate use of bunkers. And autorepair. And small depots that go up and down with less hit points than the old depot. And without the imposed requirement by other parts of the game that Terran tech up to Factory units. And Orbital Command instead of Comsat.
So, actually not 'basically the same' at all.
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As a toss, I love beating a 6pool.
One thing I hate is if it's you scout them last, so in large 4 player maps, 6pool alone gives you a 33.333 % chance to win no matter what.
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on 2 player maps your 6pool win percentage vs terran can be much better if you use 2-3 drones to block his buildings until the lings arrive.
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Stupid way to win. I paid 60 bucks for Starcraft so I could have fun playing it, not to do cheesy shit to try and win. Most of us will never do this professionally, even fewer will do so successfully, so winning shouldn't be the end all. Seems like such a waste of a game that took 12 years to develop to 6 pool.
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On April 11 2011 08:48 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 08:31 rottenpotato wrote:
You'll have 12-14 workers when the 6 pool hits, depending on the map. He'll have 6 lings. If he splits his lings, then he's going to lose, simply because you will seriously outnumber whichever group is closest to your workers.
The idea is that you keep them off mining while your army size gets bigger and bigger. This still doesn't make sense, lol. The idea to defend a 6 pool is to stall until your zealot comes out. In ZvZ, it's the first batch of lings. In TvZ, it's the first marine into the bunker. In PvZ you just have to stall for about 20 seconds and you're done; most P players lose in that time frame because they don't know how to worker drill/stall for time or they forget to protect their pylon. Most T players will win because it takes very little micro to get the marine into the bunker, and it's almost impossible for the 6 pool to win after the bunker is up. Most Z players lose for the same reasons P players lose, minus the pylon, obviously. As I play random, I get a lot of 6/8 pools because people don't like playing against randoms. I also get cannon rushed and proxy gated a lot, so whenever I see cheese it's almost like an auto-win now. EDIT: The hardest to hold is the 6 pool with drones. I've held that as P plenty of times, as I only go FFE/nexus first against Z. I think with a gate first it'd probably be pretty damn hard to hold, though. One Zealot doesn't end the Zergling harass.
Not immediately, but it does within a few seconds.
The whole goal is to get that zealot out. If you kill just 2 zerglings before the zealot comes out, you win. If you don't, you just use the zealot and 2-3 probes to hold off whatever lings remain, while you chrono the second zealot/get a forge up.
On April 11 2011 08:48 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:36 rottenpotato wrote:On April 11 2011 08:32 ondik wrote:
that 85-95 vs P seems kinda unreal for me.. how much do you win against P who forge expands? I can't believe you would win a single game for example at shakuras if P goes for forge first and then adds gate+gate to complete wallin when he scouts your 7 pool. If he forge fast expands first he basically loses. It's impossible to block off the entire area in time. 6 lings on a photon cannon is a dead photon cannon. BW Protoss know how to defeat pool cheese with a forge opening. You do not expand. You do not save your forge. You do not cannon your natural. You build a pylon in your main, near your nexus, and protect it with your probes. You then build a cannon in your mineral line, and protect it with your probes. (Your forge will not be dead yet.) Once that is done, you are at a massive economic advantage and have a safe mineral line; the primary drawback is that you have no tech. So you start building buildings and play the rest of the game at an advantage.
This is all true.
You can do the same thing with a gateway first build EXCEPT against the 6 pool variation with drones. Against that you have to catch the rush as it's coming to you and wall off completely plus get a forge. If you went forge first you're in good shape, but otherwise, it's trouble.
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On April 11 2011 08:36 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:32 ondik wrote:
that 85-95 vs P seems kinda unreal for me.. how much do you win against P who forge expands? I can't believe you would win a single game for example at shakuras if P goes for forge first and then adds gate+gate to complete wallin when he scouts your 7 pool. If he forge fast expands first he basically loses. It's impossible to block off the entire area in time. 6 lings on a photon cannon is a dead photon cannon.
What? I checked randomly two of your shakuras replays, you 7 pooled in both and got 6 lings to his natural at +- 3:00, if I open with forge, I complete my wall at natural at +- 2:40, with first cannon warping in at +- 2:50.
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Not immediately, but it does within a few seconds.
The whole goal is to get that zealot out. If you kill just 2 zerglings before the zealot comes out, you win. If you don't, you just use the zealot and 2-3 probes to hold off whatever lings remain, while you chrono the second zealot/get a forge up.
Not exactly. You still have to be very, very careful with that zealot. If you manage to get a second one out with a healthy first, you're in pretty good shape. With only one zealot out, it's still very hard.
From the 6pooling point of view, I felt it necessary to keep zealot numbers down to a maximum of 1. I took the first surround I could get - even if only partial.
While I'm sure there were a few games I came out on top with 2 zealots out, it makes it infinitely harder.
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add worker mineral line micro like in BW (6pool fixed)
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+1 For making Whiplash Rage!!
Jk, but in all honesty I am not sure it will work against the top of the top. Your games are interesting.. I like how diff races // players respond.
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On April 11 2011 09:04 ondik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:36 rottenpotato wrote:On April 11 2011 08:32 ondik wrote:
that 85-95 vs P seems kinda unreal for me.. how much do you win against P who forge expands? I can't believe you would win a single game for example at shakuras if P goes for forge first and then adds gate+gate to complete wallin when he scouts your 7 pool. If he forge fast expands first he basically loses. It's impossible to block off the entire area in time. 6 lings on a photon cannon is a dead photon cannon. What? I checked randomly two of your shakuras replays, you 7 pooled in both and got 6 lings to his natural at +- 3:00, if I open with forge, I complete my wall at natural at +- 2:40, with first cannon warping in at +- 2:50.
That sounds about right. Sorry it's been a while since I've done it. There should be 4-5 games like that in the replay pack...somewhere.
Just because the wall-off is there, doesn't mean it's effective.
On Shakuras, to form a wall-off with a forge, you need to have more than the normal '4 zergling' hit area. The forge goes down pretty damned quick.
If you don't have the probes sitting waiting to protect the one cannon, it's easy to break.
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On April 11 2011 08:40 sinani206 wrote:
I'm combining this with saying "corrupter brood lord ultralisk" at the beginning of every game. I haven't lost one yet!
You are a horrible person; I'd do something more believable like "Roach Queen Broodlord". All late game units are going to make them suspicious.
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On April 11 2011 08:48 Jeffbelittle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:42 Acritter wrote:On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better. The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill. Yes but open the replay pack. Of the people who A) Scouted him if Protoss or Zerg and B)knew how to respond to a 6/7 pool: how many lost? I'd have to think less than 1% of all Protoss players who TRULY know how to fend off a 6 pool, scout it, and still lose. It'd be from some weird lag thing and disconnects most likely. Also: you can't bar Terran, your upper boundary outlier unless you also bar Protoss. Leaving you with ZvZ which isn't a 6 pool and any build well executed will produce a tad over 50% results, so there isn't a problem there. When Terran first started doing 2 Rax All-Ins, it had over a 80% win rate against Zergs. Zergs simply didn't know how to handle it. The problem is most people don't play 6 pools in ladder that much, so they're not prepared because they haven't been conditioned to that early of a cheese since they were in bronze. Also: you aren't necessarily seeing a short game after you see a 6 pool. I wish I could find the replays, but trust me: if you kill the zealot, and you kill like 6 probes, he's only 2 workers up, and it can easily become a macro game from there.
The problem with THAT is that if you overprepare for a 6pool, you'll tend to lose badly to economic openings. The game turns into rock/paper/scissors. That's stupid. This is especially true for ZvZ, where a middling pool will lose to a 14pool and a 14pool will lose to a 6pool.
I can definitely bar Terran! If a strategy is overpowered against one race, then it's overpowered. If it's overpowered against two races, it's doubly so. There's no iron law saying you have to use one strategy against every race. You can just do something else against Terran, maybe 7 Roach Rush if early aggression is your style.
2rax is not entirely comparable, as it is far easier to transition out of into standard play. Also, the 2rax defense progresses the game.
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So are protoss in general all going economically greedy openings that are BO losses to 6 pools? What timing do you need to build your gateway to hold a 6 pool on a larger map? If protoss are being greedy every game then I feel like Zergs need to start 6 pooling more, just like how Toss and Terran constantly punish hatch first builds from Zerg.
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6 pool is almost impossible to defend on some of the new maps if you scoute the zerg last : (
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I don't wanna start some EU vs. NA war here but the players on NA seems kinda bad compared to the players on EU with the same rank (thinking on people who isn't in Masters). But I guess thats because more players on NA = more noobs. :p
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Oh neat, I didn't know that site existed.
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On April 11 2011 09:30 Termit wrote:
I don't wanna start some EU vs. NA war here but the players on NA seems kinda bad compared to the players on EU with the same rank (thinking on people who isn't in Masters). But I guess thats because more players on NA = more noobs. :p
More players means there are more people to pick from when forming the top tier for the elite few too, so it's more of a compliment than an insult
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On April 11 2011 09:33 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 09:30 Termit wrote:
I don't wanna start some EU vs. NA war here but the players on NA seems kinda bad compared to the players on EU with the same rank (thinking on people who isn't in Masters). But I guess thats because more players on NA = more noobs. :p More players means there are more people to pick from when forming the top tier for the elite few too, so it's more of a compliment than an insult
Dear Mr potato
Might be asking a bit much of you, but could you possibly write a guide for ZvP 6 pool, on how to execute it properly and defend it properly? Not like, a complete one or anything, cliff notes is fine too
Going through the replays i see kinda a variety of diff ways to defend, but you say you definitely absolutely need a forge to defend?
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On April 11 2011 07:31 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are. I didn't say it was a bad thing to do, I said I don't normally do it. The rest of your response - right. If i were to put out one fire with a hose, could I say I'm a fire-fighter?
No, but you said that basically the entire reason you are high on ladder is because you cheesed your way up. If you spent your entire life fighting fires, and when they were going to give you a medal for fighting fires you were like "Yeah this isn't me" You'd be lying.
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On April 11 2011 09:47 BrTarolg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 09:33 rottenpotato wrote:On April 11 2011 09:30 Termit wrote:
I don't wanna start some EU vs. NA war here but the players on NA seems kinda bad compared to the players on EU with the same rank (thinking on people who isn't in Masters). But I guess thats because more players on NA = more noobs. :p More players means there are more people to pick from when forming the top tier for the elite few too, so it's more of a compliment than an insult Dear Mr potato Might be asking a bit much of you, but could you possibly write a guide for ZvP 6 pool, on how to execute it properly and defend it properly? Not like, a complete one or anything, cliff notes is fine too Going through the replays i see kinda a variety of diff ways to defend, but you say you definitely absolutely need a forge to defend?
I'll talk to him for you Brtarolg and see what I can do. You see, I am his coach. I'm his sempaii and he my padawon. Actually, you or anyone who wants to come learn from my 6pooling student can hop onto quakenet irc we're in #mrpotato. We're pretty elite.
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On April 11 2011 09:47 BrTarolg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 09:33 rottenpotato wrote:On April 11 2011 09:30 Termit wrote:
I don't wanna start some EU vs. NA war here but the players on NA seems kinda bad compared to the players on EU with the same rank (thinking on people who isn't in Masters). But I guess thats because more players on NA = more noobs. :p More players means there are more people to pick from when forming the top tier for the elite few too, so it's more of a compliment than an insult Dear Mr potato Might be asking a bit much of you, but could you possibly write a guide for ZvP 6 pool, on how to execute it properly and defend it properly? Not like, a complete one or anything, cliff notes is fine too Going through the replays i see kinda a variety of diff ways to defend, but you say you definitely absolutely need a forge to defend?
A few pages back I outlined how to defend it as P.
As for executing it...well I think the replays speak for themselves.
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How does this work? I played a guy on EU who was 3524 last season by only 6 pooling... I tried it out in a custom game to see if I could beat someone, and I beat one toss who left the game the moment he saw my lings, and then lost to another player.
played a terran, I went to 6 pool him and the guy had a wall up lol wtf, worst strategy in the world vs terran. Won the game 20 minutes later anyways, because he was only 3k diamond, but yeah.
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This is why I switched to terran. Not lying.
It felt uneasily unfair that I could get 12+ ladder wins in a row and then get the streak ended by a blind PvZ on Shattered Temple. I scouted at 9 and it was still way, way too late by the time I found him.
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I find it really interesting that protoss are still losing to this 90% of the time at high levels (according to the OP)
I mean, yeah last scout spawn on 4 player sucks, but thats probably what, 10% of your games?
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I'm shocked 7 pool was that effective in ZvZ. I got annoyed by losing to it a couple of times in succession a while ago, so I practiced my response, and now if I scout an early pool I'm rubbing my hands with glee. The only times I don't come out ahead are when I open hatch first.
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Btw can you explain why you get the overlord before the 3rd ling?
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On April 11 2011 08:59 MerciLess wrote:
Stupid way to win. I paid 60 bucks for Starcraft so I could have fun playing it, not to do cheesy shit to try and win. Most of us will never do this professionally, even fewer will do so successfully, so winning shouldn't be the end all. Seems like such a waste of a game that took 12 years to develop to 6 pool.
oh you mean like 2rax
oh you mean like 4gate
oh you mean like cannon rush, proxy 2gate zealot, 7pool spine crawler rush
early aggression is part of the game, scouting is part of the game
the best way to avoid these games is to thumbs down bad maps like slag pits
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I think it's funny that all those people you beat couldnt defend it.
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To be perfectly honest, cheesing is THE way to get into masters if you're not already in it. Standard play will never get you there. I have a friend that is about 1/10th my skill level and he does a +1 timing with zerglings off of 2 base and all ins every game and it works the majority of the time. It also loses him just enough games for his MMR to be stable.
He beats me to masters because I'm an idiot and play super standard macro play every game. Needless to say all I do is cheese now and quickly climbed to rank 1 on EU and NA in diamond waiting for promotion.
TL;DR: Playing standard on ladder is fucking pointless until you get to masters.
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On April 11 2011 08:15 Tatari wrote:
Dunno how a Protoss would lose to a 6 pool (unless they went for a forward Gateway at the nat instead of the main ramp). The second I see and confirm that a 6 pool just popped up, I throw down 2 gateways when I have the minerals and save up all chrono boosts for zealots and finish up my wall.
If you go a 13 gateway I'm fairly certain you can't fully wall with 2 gates... The best you can do is 2 gateways and 1 pylon and only one ling can attack the pylon. However, the problem is, if you scout it last, you already have your core making - your gas is up... And by the time you enter their base their knocking on your base with 6 lings. At that point it's pretty much game over as long as they don't 1a their lings into your mineral line. They can snipe your pylon and there is simply nothing you can do since the zealot has a ways to go to finish...
I haven't had much trouble dealing with 6 pool personally, but I think it's mainly they're execution is bad. I like to get a forge, fully wall off, and make a cannon. No zealots or anything, tends to work pretty well. If they go after your pylon with good probe your micro you will usually only lose 3-4 probes vs 6 lings if they decide to engage by your pylon.
Or the easy counter to it is go for 14 forge every game, auto win vs 15 hatch, pylon block + cannon vs 14 gas 14 pool.... Or just forge fe. I have been preferring this build lately, and it's not because the 6 pool threat. I find that it's a 67% the zerg auto loses if they 6 pool.
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If you think 6 pool is your idea of a good time, then by all means go for it. I think I'd get bored to death doing the same strategy over and over again. Consider what's going to happen to you when you decide to stop 6 pooling though. Since you did nothing but cheese your skill at standard macro games won't have improved at all, and you'll just end up falling back down to your original rank.
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On April 11 2011 10:14 BrTarolg wrote:
Btw can you explain why you get the overlord before the 3rd ling?
On a 6pool?
I know that it's going to take me more than 6 lings. I'd rather have a steady stream of 2 lings over 6 lings, more lings, then a long break waiting for an overlord.
I think I explained it earlier that in most situations, only 4 lings can hit a forge at any given time, which makes the two extra lings pointless. I reinforce with more when I need them and have that extra supply cap available.
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On April 11 2011 10:18 shadowboxer wrote:
To be perfectly honest, cheesing is THE way to get into masters if you're not already in it. Standard play will never get you there. I have a friend that is about 1/10th my skill level and he does a +1 timing with zerglings off of 2 base and all ins every game and it works the majority of the time. It also loses him just enough games for his MMR to be stable.
He beats me to masters because I'm an idiot and play super standard macro play every game. Needless to say all I do is cheese now and quickly climbed to rank 1 on EU and NA in diamond waiting for promotion.
TL;DR: Playing standard on ladder is fucking pointless until you get to masters.
So you reach masters and then start learning the game from scratch? What was the reason for rushing then?... You didn't really achieve anything since once the legit player reaches masters he will be 10 fold better than you.
Edit: woot, post 1234
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On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
Whoa...thats making it sound like he was hacking or something. It is frustrating for sure, but saying that is a bit too harsh.
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On April 11 2011 10:21 Skillz_Man wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 10:18 shadowboxer wrote:
To be perfectly honest, cheesing is THE way to get into masters if you're not already in it. Standard play will never get you there. I have a friend that is about 1/10th my skill level and he does a +1 timing with zerglings off of 2 base and all ins every game and it works the majority of the time. It also loses him just enough games for his MMR to be stable.
He beats me to masters because I'm an idiot and play super standard macro play every game. Needless to say all I do is cheese now and quickly climbed to rank 1 on EU and NA in diamond waiting for promotion.
TL;DR: Playing standard on ladder is fucking pointless until you get to masters. So you reach masters and then start learning the game from scratch? What was the reason for rushing then?... You didn't really achieve anything since once the legit player reaches masters he will be 10 fold better than you. Edit: woot, post 1234
he's clueless. He will be crushed by masters players by playing standard. Once he realizes that he sucks at playing standard, he will go right back to cheesing to maintain his masters position.
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I think cheese is great, and crucial for the game. 6 pool is an awesome strat for lower-tier players who want to take games off stronger players.
Let me give you an example. Let's say the OP's win rate is 30% if he play straight up, this means he could increase it to by 6 pooling.
In a 4 player map, there is a 33% chance that you are scouted last, and in this case, it becomes a free win for you. 33% may still seem kind of low, but compared to your usual win rate if you play standard, it is still higher, and possibly could be increased if the opponent screws up or late scouts or something.
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I would really want to see what kind of percentages you could have gotten if you would have switched it up when you went against a T, like a Bling bust or a Roach all in. All in all i think that it is very interesting that you could win so many games, especially against toss!
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Very interesting! As a Zerg player, I've been looking to incorporate some all-ins into my play, and early pools seem like a good place to start. Could you talk about the micro against a Protoss who a) goes for a forge, and pulls probes to protect it, or b) goes for a regular gateway and runs probes until the zealot is out?
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Also you lost a game vs oakhill where he just used 2 gateways and made zealots to defend... did you make a critical mistake here? He also had 13 gate and didn't scout till late on xelnaga
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On April 11 2011 10:31 Lobotomist wrote:
Very interesting! As a Zerg player, I've been looking to incorporate some all-ins into my play, and early pools seem like a good place to start. Could you talk about the micro against a Protoss who a) goes for a forge, and pulls probes to protect it, or b) goes for a regular gateway and runs probes until the zealot is out?
If it's a really late forge going down(50% or less done when you get to the doorstep), you have to hit the gateway. It has more health but will still die before a cannon finishes. The late forge also means zealots are going to be coming out (and the chrono will provide the proof, because it will have chrono boost on it).
If he attacks straight up with probes, it's not necessarily a good idea to engage him. Count the ling numbers, count the probe numbers. I wouldn't attack them unless the numbers are either even or in your favour (some exceptions would be when the remaining probe count is low(6lings vs 8-10 probes is a fight I would pick if none were mining) or if he pulls off probes that is equal to less than the total number of probes and still not vastly outnumbering your lings).
If the forge is going down/is down(most likely scenario if he scouted you early enough), your best bet is to kill the forge. It has less health and will die faster than the gateway.
Assuming you break the wall and kill the first cannon, two things will happen. He'll ignore you entirely and keep mining/chronoing a zealot and lose. Take the first chance you get to surround the zealot (4 lings hitting or more) and hack away at the pylons in the mean time.
If he pulls probes to protect the cannon, you may just be screwed. With good micro and intent to protect that cannon, it's very hard to break. Use your best judgment call on this one. Maybe 3-4 lings on the building cannon and keep him from mining. He's going to see it and he's going to move closer to the lings trying to kill it. Be ready to micro them away for a second / try to surround.
It really takes a lot of micro and quick thinking to pull these games off.
Don't forget to macro. The worst thing you can do is not receive your 2ling reinforcement every x seconds.
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On April 11 2011 10:39 BrTarolg wrote:
Also you lost a game vs oakhill where he just used 2 gateways and made zealots to defend... did you make a critical mistake here? He also had 13 gate and didn't scout till late on xelnaga
Not sure, I don't remember every game . It could have just been one of the very late night games that I don't even remember.
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"Win ratio vs Terran: ~15-20%"
lol why even try?
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wow that's funny that people still don't know how to defend a 6 pool.
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I watched about 20 of em so far, good stuff! Not one Terran even came close to loosing.
Also good job Flabulous (Mr Bitter) on holding off that cheese
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how does a 7pool vs 7pool work?
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Funny stuff, i would switch up six pool to a 2 hatch bane bust to counter the probable two rax that is six pool proof.
I six pool a lot on ladder when im bored or frustrated, makes for some good times
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Cheese won't get you better overall if you depend on it, but a win is a win. Every once and a while I'll toss out an 8pool in a zvz, and it often works. It is nice to change things up every once and a while
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Is seriusly sad that you can beat a really superior P player in any of the 4 player maps with a crappy strat like this. I even sadder that some crappy players surelly will start to 6 pool even more after reading this.
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Haha this is funny.
I think this kind of cheese has its place in tournaments especially when your opponent doesn't expect it (ie right after you win a long macro game) but it's annoying when you play on ladder and face this stuff, just because I feel its completely retarded to this stuff unless your playing purely for laughs...but i don't see how the s1 3.5k masters i was facing thought 6 pooling was fun. I cheese in team games because that's how you play team games, but even then I get bored...
For the cheese itself, as Zerg I find it's really easy to defend unless it's like cross position on the largest map in the world which causes to go 15 hatch 15 gas 15 pool (against zerg), but I know I'm taking a risk and that I'll be ahead unless my opponent cheeses or does the same. Pros probably wouldn't do this and I don't think this would ever work. As your numbers show it works best against protoss who have been extremely greedy as of late with the new map pool, often going nexus first, forge nexus or gateway nexus. I still would rather do an economic cheese to counter his fast expo by going 16 hatch 16 pool and getting a quick third. You can make so many drones its awesome. So I don't feel this should be used ever on the ladder. In professional tournament games its a risk that, as we've seen in major tournaments of both sc1 and sc2, can pay off immensely or cost you your dignity
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On April 11 2011 07:24 Pokebunny wrote:
yo which game is whiplash
:D
^ I see what you did there
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Thats funny, I got 7 pooled earlier today and lost. I'm low diamond and it's so rare that I begin to forget about.
I was all sorts of pissed when I lost, but my anger was directed mostly at myself. I built my first supply depot next to my cc instead of on top of the ramp >.<
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On April 11 2011 11:04 DImported wrote:
wow that's funny that people still don't know how to defend a 6 pool.
It's not exactly as simple as you'd think if you scout the zerg last position on 4 player maps while he finds you first as Protoss.
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ignore this. delayed double post?
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I have no idea if this is just evidence the NA server is truly terrible, or if 6-7 pooling is actually a strong strat.
I wonder if the OPs success rate could be duplicated on the EU or KR servers.
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So you reach masters and then start learning the game from scratch? What was the reason for rushing then?... You didn't really achieve anything since once the legit player reaches masters he will be 10 fold better than you.
Edit: woot, post 1234[/QUOTE]
Not exactly, I already know how to play standard, I want to hit masters because a lot of tournaments require you to be masters. I'm not sure if you were handed masters or not, but when you're top level diamond, you play nothing but masters and most of them are absolutely horrendous.
Still, smaller tournaments actually REQUIRE you to be masters. Thus, instead of trying my hardest on ladder, I'll continue to play solid and standard in practice games with solid opponents instead of wasting my time vs. absolute scrubs that get to masters by 4 gating/6 gating/old 2rax, or 6 pooling like this guy did.
Masters players are hardly "10 fold" better than tier 1 diamond players, generally they're as bad or worse. Masters starts mattering when you're extremely high rated, and doesn't matter at all when you're low rated because you're going to queue against 50% masters and 50% top level diamond.
If you see any tournaments that have a diamond requirement, let me know, they seem to have disappeared since TL opens stopped happening.
On topic, if you want to participate in tournies, know how to play solid and what to improve on but aren't getting promoted, cheesing is the way to get there. And as you can see, 6 pooling is still working for him at mid-high masters, so obviously just because you're masters doesn't actually mean you're "10 fold" better than anyone.
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To be honest I would say this says very little about the strength of the build, and everything about the nature of the ladder. It confirms what is already obvious; you play a game against a random person out of possible thousands, and if you do an easy fast all in that most players don't do, you will win a lot of games.
People don't expect Z to 6-7 pool very much. 6-7 pool is still an easy win if it is unexpected. Therefore if you 6-7 pool every game against a different player each time, you will win lots. In, say, a Bo5, the guy who has been doing nothing but 7 pooling is pretty fucked. He wins one game off of it, and it's not likely to happen again. ActionJesuz notwithstanding.
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+ Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 11:27 shadowboxer wrote:
So you reach masters and then start learning the game from scratch? What was the reason for rushing then?... You didn't really achieve anything since once the legit player reaches masters he will be 10 fold better than you.
Edit: woot, post 1234 Not exactly, I already know how to play standard, I want to hit masters because a lot of tournaments require you to be masters. I'm not sure if you were handed masters or not, but when you're top level diamond, you play nothing but masters and most of them are absolutely horrendous. Still, smaller tournaments actually REQUIRE you to be masters. Thus, instead of trying my hardest on ladder, I'll continue to play solid and standard in practice games with solid opponents instead of wasting my time vs. absolute scrubs that get to masters by 4 gating/6 gating/old 2rax, or 6 pooling like this guy did. Masters players are hardly "10 fold" better than tier 1 diamond players, generally they're as bad or worse. Masters starts mattering when you're extremely high rated, and doesn't matter at all when you're low rated because you're going to queue against 50% masters and 50% top level diamond. If you see any tournaments that have a diamond requirement, let me know, they seem to have disappeared since TL opens stopped happening. On topic, if you want to participate in tournies, know how to play solid and what to improve on but aren't getting promoted, cheesing is the way to get there. And as you can see, 6 pooling is still working for him at mid-high masters, so obviously just because you're masters doesn't actually mean you're "10 fold" better than anyone.
Actually there's quite a big difference of skill between Diamond and Master, I've never been "high" Master because I don't play much and I always have a lot of bonus pool but since the Master divison exist, I lost maybe 3 games against Diamond player out of 30+(you can't miss a force field against 3roach/ling all in, heh). But I was only rank 98 in Master last season, how come?
You wanna know how "good" a "tier1" Diamond player is? Go watch Catreina stream, you'll see... There's not a single Master player worst than that, "10 fold" better is pretty accurate.
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I find 6 pool extremely strong on Tal'Darim altar against protoss. I can't tell you how many times I had to lose to 6 pool because my first pylon was at my natural. Now on that map I put my first pylon at my choke, and if the zerg isn't at the first position I scout, I send a second probe for safe measures. I haven't lost to it since!
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On April 11 2011 11:27 shadowboxer wrote:
Not exactly, I already know how to play standard, I want to hit masters because a lot of tournaments require you to be masters. I'm not sure if you were handed masters or not, but when you're top level diamond, you play nothing but masters and most of them are absolutely horrendous.
This is ridiculous to me. If you can't get to masters playing standard and you 6 pool your way there just to play in tournaments online you are going to get crushed regardless. Shit I've been in masters since it came out and I get crushed most of the time in online tours and I have yet to 6 pool anyone on any ladder game. No one is "handed" masters. If you play such horrendous masters players wouldn't it be easy to get into masters w/o 6 pooling constantly just by beating the "horrendous" players you're playing against?
Nothing about what you wrote makes any sense to me at all, in fact.
You may know how to play "standard" as you put it, but if you aren't in masters because of your "standard" skills and instead rely on 6 pools to get you in, that simply means you're "standard" play is diamond level. That is what you should work on. Not becoming the next ActionJesus.
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On April 11 2011 12:04 Adonisto wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 11:27 shadowboxer wrote:
So you reach masters and then start learning the game from scratch? What was the reason for rushing then?... You didn't really achieve anything since once the legit player reaches masters he will be 10 fold better than you.
Edit: woot, post 1234 Not exactly, I already know how to play standard, I want to hit masters because a lot of tournaments require you to be masters. I'm not sure if you were handed masters or not, but when you're top level diamond, you play nothing but masters and most of them are absolutely horrendous. Still, smaller tournaments actually REQUIRE you to be masters. Thus, instead of trying my hardest on ladder, I'll continue to play solid and standard in practice games with solid opponents instead of wasting my time vs. absolute scrubs that get to masters by 4 gating/6 gating/old 2rax, or 6 pooling like this guy did. Masters players are hardly "10 fold" better than tier 1 diamond players, generally they're as bad or worse. Masters starts mattering when you're extremely high rated, and doesn't matter at all when you're low rated because you're going to queue against 50% masters and 50% top level diamond. If you see any tournaments that have a diamond requirement, let me know, they seem to have disappeared since TL opens stopped happening. On topic, if you want to participate in tournies, know how to play solid and what to improve on but aren't getting promoted, cheesing is the way to get there. And as you can see, 6 pooling is still working for him at mid-high masters, so obviously just because you're masters doesn't actually mean you're "10 fold" better than anyone. Actually there's quite a big difference of skill between Diamond and Master, I've never been "high" Master because I don't play much and I always have a lot of bonus pool but since the Master divison exist, I lost maybe 3 games against Diamond player out of 30+(you can't miss a force field against 3roach/ling all in, heh). But I was only rank 98 in Master last season, how come? You wanna know how "good" a "tier1" Diamond player is? Go watch Catreina stream, you'll see... There's not a single Master player worst than that, "10 fold" better is pretty accurate.
As a high diamond player, I'll say the exact opposite. The bottom tier of masters (The players I face) range from slightly worse than to slightly better than me, and many have what I'd call diamond level mechanics; I can beat them regularly. Of course, most of masters is different and better, but low-tier masters and high-tier diamond are essentially at the same skill level.
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On April 11 2011 07:35 Art_of_Kill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords) and warp gate should require two nexus ...
You serious bro? :/
:3
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On April 11 2011 11:22 Resilient wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 11:04 DImported wrote:
wow that's funny that people still don't know how to defend a 6 pool. It's not exactly as simple as you'd think if you scout the zerg last position on 4 player maps while he finds you first as Protoss.
yea... in a 4 player map, if you get really unlucky with scouting, you won't know the opponent is 7 pooling until the lings come up your ramp. zerg on the other hand can just send 2 drones to scout the bases and find you.
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You played me twice in a row and the second game you didn't 6 pool! Your sample is tainted!
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[B]Also good job Flabulous (Mr Bitter) on holding off that cheese
Well that's the problem with a 6 (or in that case a 7 pool with spine crawler) in a ZvZ - yes he won that game but watch how close it actually is. He lost so many drones fighting the zerglings that in the end he was only ahead by 2 drones and if you keep in mind how much mining time he has lost that is a MUCH closer outcome than you would expect for properly dealing with cheese.
If the OP had switched to drone production or made a queen it would have been a pretty even game from that point on.
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I like to 6pool when I get a map+match up I really don't like, not playing to be pro just to have fun so getting these annoying matches over quickly
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On April 11 2011 07:15 rottenpotato wrote:Let me start by saying that I don't condone in any way cheesing, especially to the extreme that I took it that week. I don't play like this. I had taken an extended break before the lockout of season 1. I started the week needing to burn up 1840 bonus pool. That's a lot of games. I crunched some numbers: there's absolutely no way I'd have enough time to play that many real games in one week. I wanted a better emblem for the season. Solution? Fast games. 6 pools(7 vs zerg). What did I learn? It works amazingly. **NOTE** The following percentages are based on master's 1500 through 3300-3400 players. There is a wall you hit shortly after where the percentages drop largely. Terran to about 2-5%, Zerg is about the same, and Protoss to around 55-65%. Win ratio vs Terran: ~15-20% Win ratio vs Zerg: ~65-75% Win ratio vs Protoss: ~85-95% My MMR at the end sat at at around 3800-3900. I fought a few "e-famous" people including Flabulous, Kiwikaki, and VTWhiplash (to be fair I had no idea who this guy was until I saw him on the Dallas stream a few days ago...and again to be fair I still don't). What are your thoughts on 6pooling at high levels of play? You can find the replay pack here: 6-7 pool replay pack
I don't want to watch a replay pack of the same shit. However, I am curious what other notable players you ran into on the NA server while you were doing it. Are those the only recognizeable players you ran into on the ladder? 3 names is fine with an et cetera, but if those are the only guys you came across meh. I'm not surprised many unknowns would fall victim to it. Players should have caught onto you quickly though.
This says very little.
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On April 11 2011 11:53 The KY wrote:
To be honest I would say this says very little about the strength of the build, and everything about the nature of the ladder. It confirms what is already obvious; you play a game against a random person out of possible thousands, and if you do an easy fast all in that most players don't do, you will win a lot of games.
People don't expect Z to 6-7 pool very much. 6-7 pool is still an easy win if it is unexpected. Therefore if you 6-7 pool every game against a different player each time, you will win lots. In, say, a Bo5, the guy who has been doing nothing but 7 pooling is pretty fucked. He wins one game off of it, and it's not likely to happen again. ActionJesuz notwithstanding.
I'm inclined to agree with this. To be honest preparing for a 6 pool will not even put any players behind by very much, as long as they scouted the zergling popping out and didn't do any crazy econ cheese. Terrans just need a faster walloff, or failing that, a bunker (OP agrees with its ineffectiveness against Ts), protoss is trickier but pulling probes in time with the zealot to get up a forge nullifies this. You don't even need specific builds to counter it.
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On April 11 2011 07:34 TurtlePerson2 wrote:
I think that this shows that Zergs and Protoss are cheating their opponents at a high level. Perhaps the reason why Protoss players are beating Zerg so often in tournaments is because the Zerg players are letting the toss players get away with greedy builds.
Protoss is extremely vulnerable to very fast rushes(before the cybercore is finished). It's almost impossible to defend a well micro'd 6pool if all you have is 1 gateway, 1-2 pylons, an unfinished cybercore, and probes. Protoss has no range until they have the core finished and enough gas to make stalkers. Terran can simply wall off, put a marine behind their wall and be safe. Protoss can't do this.
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I think some of the remaining percentage is due to luck, since a lot of the 1v1 maps on ladder now are 4 player maps, if you happen to scout the zerg last you may be unprepared for the 6pool and lose quite easily that way. Other than that, this is just proof that you can get to high levels of ladder play without being that good.
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On April 11 2011 13:08 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:15 rottenpotato wrote:Let me start by saying that I don't condone in any way cheesing, especially to the extreme that I took it that week. I don't play like this. I had taken an extended break before the lockout of season 1. I started the week needing to burn up 1840 bonus pool. That's a lot of games. I crunched some numbers: there's absolutely no way I'd have enough time to play that many real games in one week. I wanted a better emblem for the season. Solution? Fast games. 6 pools(7 vs zerg). What did I learn? It works amazingly. **NOTE** The following percentages are based on master's 1500 through 3300-3400 players. There is a wall you hit shortly after where the percentages drop largely. Terran to about 2-5%, Zerg is about the same, and Protoss to around 55-65%. Win ratio vs Terran: ~15-20% Win ratio vs Zerg: ~65-75% Win ratio vs Protoss: ~85-95% My MMR at the end sat at at around 3800-3900. I fought a few "e-famous" people including Flabulous, Kiwikaki, and VTWhiplash (to be fair I had no idea who this guy was until I saw him on the Dallas stream a few days ago...and again to be fair I still don't). What are your thoughts on 6pooling at high levels of play? You can find the replay pack here: 6-7 pool replay pack I don't want to watch a replay pack of the same shit. However, I am curious what other notable players you ran into on the NA server while you were doing it. Are those the only recognizeable players you ran into on the ladder? 3 names is fine with an et cetera, but if those are the only guys you came across meh. I'm not surprised many unknowns would fall victim to it. Players should have caught onto you quickly though. This says very little.
Not sure. I could have run into some of the 'lesser known' progamers and not known it. Like I said I hadn't even heard of VT before I saw him on one of the Dallas videos.
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I bet yer good at 6 pool now...but still bad overall. Congrats, you have turned sc2 into your own portrait farming pastime.
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a terran that walls off and knows what SCV repair is should really never lose to 6pool except MAYBE on close spawns..
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If you want to do it, more power to you, helps to give T and P some of their own medicine from time to time, but, honestly, it's a pretty risk based strategy. You're betting that the opponent doesn't know how to react, and if you bet wrong, you're probably going to lose, unless you got really lucky with spawn positions. That being said, sadly, 7 pool double spine is a really strong opener in zvz because so many people are FEing now or at least dong late gas/pools, that unless their first overlord catches it, the attack will probably win you the game if you micro correctly.
So, who's to say if it's good or bad. If you want to keep doing it and you win with it. or you find it fun, go ahead. Others might not like it, but that's life. I don't like 2 rax rine/scv, doesn't mean terrans are going to stop doing it to make me feel better.
gl.
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On April 11 2011 08:55 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:
IMO I'd rather face a 6 pool as Protoss than a 4 warpgate as Terran because it is basically the same as a proxy 4 gate in BW without the disadvantages.
Except with nerfed dragoons with free range upgrade and buffed marines with free range upgrade and nerfed SCVs and buffed bunkers. And Marauders and Sentries. And bunker salvage allowing more profligate use of bunkers. And autorepair. And small depots that go up and down with less hit points than the old depot. And without the imposed requirement by other parts of the game that Terran tech up to Factory units. And Orbital Command instead of Comsat. So, actually not 'basically the same' at all.
Except by removing 90% of my quote you took me out of context. Your argument does not actually disprove what I said. If BW protoss players always proxy 4 gated, we would probably always see 1 basing terrans, this doesn't happen obviously because having your gateways halfway across a map is a disadvantage once spider mines are laid around it. So it is usually only used to counter 1 Rax FE.
However it is possible to FE against 6 pool because of the new wall mechanics. You can pylon/gateway/forge block your natural (if its narrow) and you'd be safe from zerglings and be miles ahead. (I don't have a problem with that either)
Now my point was in contrast to what some guy said about how powerful 6 pool is, and how blizzard should do something about it. The thing is there are a ton of other builds which are more powerful than the 6 pool, but have much less disadvantages, such as 4 warp gate. 4 warp gate simply being as effective as a cheese without disadvantage of having your gateways halfway across the map.
6 pool does not change the state of the game nearly as much as cloaked banshees, immortals, void-rays, roaches, warpgate, army clumping, worker mining duration, etc.
Honestly if you removed that BS, you would end up with more interesting games (Esp: PvP). Everything is balance-able so I no point whining about toss being weak, e.g when you could just e.g buff the core units.
On April 11 2011 12:10 DamnCats wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 11:27 shadowboxer wrote:
Not exactly, I already know how to play standard, I want to hit masters because a lot of tournaments require you to be masters. I'm not sure if you were handed masters or not, but when you're top level diamond, you play nothing but masters and most of them are absolutely horrendous.
This is ridiculous to me. If you can't get to masters playing standard and you 6 pool your way there just to play in tournaments online you are going to get crushed regardless. Shit I've been in masters since it came out and I get crushed most of the time in online tours and I have yet to 6 pool anyone on any ladder game. No one is "handed" masters. If you play such horrendous masters players wouldn't it be easy to get into masters w/o 6 pooling constantly just by beating the "horrendous" players you're playing against? Nothing about what you wrote makes any sense to me at all, in fact. You may know how to play "standard" as you put it, but if you aren't in masters because of your "standard" skills and instead rely on 6 pools to get you in, that simply means you're "standard" play is diamond level. That is what you should work on. Not becoming the next ActionJesus.
Ah-ah-ah- ... Achhh!!!ActionJesuz!!! ...
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You can think of it like a cycle:
Person gets 6 pooled -> becomes more aware of the strat and takes extra measures to prevent it -> doesn't see 6 pool for a while, stops taking preventive measures -> Person loses to 6 pool.
This diagram can also work with other "cheesy" builds, ex. losing to proxy gate -> much more vigilant about patrolling outside of base -> become less vigilant over time -> lose to proxy again. Of course, since you are fighting random people on the ladder, most will always be at a point where they don't consider these cheeses (especially at high masters).
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6 pool is impossible to stop on 4 player maps if you scout him last. That's bullshit and reason enough to be rather pissed (as I quite often get xD).
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On April 11 2011 12:11 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 12:04 Adonisto wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 11 2011 11:27 shadowboxer wrote:
So you reach masters and then start learning the game from scratch? What was the reason for rushing then?... You didn't really achieve anything since once the legit player reaches masters he will be 10 fold better than you.
Edit: woot, post 1234 Not exactly, I already know how to play standard, I want to hit masters because a lot of tournaments require you to be masters. I'm not sure if you were handed masters or not, but when you're top level diamond, you play nothing but masters and most of them are absolutely horrendous. Still, smaller tournaments actually REQUIRE you to be masters. Thus, instead of trying my hardest on ladder, I'll continue to play solid and standard in practice games with solid opponents instead of wasting my time vs. absolute scrubs that get to masters by 4 gating/6 gating/old 2rax, or 6 pooling like this guy did. Masters players are hardly "10 fold" better than tier 1 diamond players, generally they're as bad or worse. Masters starts mattering when you're extremely high rated, and doesn't matter at all when you're low rated because you're going to queue against 50% masters and 50% top level diamond. If you see any tournaments that have a diamond requirement, let me know, they seem to have disappeared since TL opens stopped happening. On topic, if you want to participate in tournies, know how to play solid and what to improve on but aren't getting promoted, cheesing is the way to get there. And as you can see, 6 pooling is still working for him at mid-high masters, so obviously just because you're masters doesn't actually mean you're "10 fold" better than anyone. Actually there's quite a big difference of skill between Diamond and Master, I've never been "high" Master because I don't play much and I always have a lot of bonus pool but since the Master divison exist, I lost maybe 3 games against Diamond player out of 30+(you can't miss a force field against 3roach/ling all in, heh). But I was only rank 98 in Master last season, how come? You wanna know how "good" a "tier1" Diamond player is? Go watch Catreina stream, you'll see... There's not a single Master player worst than that, "10 fold" better is pretty accurate. As a high diamond player, I'll say the exact opposite. The bottom tier of masters (The players I face) range from slightly worse than to slightly better than me, and many have what I'd call diamond level mechanics; I can beat them regularly. Of course, most of masters is different and better, but low-tier masters and high-tier diamond are essentially at the same skill level.
In the end, who gives a crap? Either way it means you have vast improvements ahead if you are serious about this game.
I really hope they don't go with some "requires 2nd overlord" crap. Just put a starting cooldown like on WC3 taverns that say limits it to 8 pool at earliest. Or just have fun defending 6 pool. In the end it'll be more satisfying to learn to defend it than to QQ and wait for a nerf.
I am somewhat interested in an early 2nd scout, but I think for now I'd rather just roll with it and say my "gg's." As I sorta mentioned, I'd rather learn to defend it better and there's only one way to do that.
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Just played 3 PvZ's in a row. Every single one was a 6-pool.
Lost first 2, scouted at 9 with a 13 gate every time. Pretty much an instant loss if you scout them last on some of the new maps. The one I held I scouted second and I barely held that.
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I never imagined 6/7 pool having such a high win ratio against zerg and protoss. Quite funny if you ask me.
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Pretty realistic numbers too. I was circling around top200 EU as random last season, and I actually had pretty grim stats vs 6-7pools. Zvz it made me not 15hat "ever" since it became so popular cheese even in semihigh masters. Pvz I often lost to it too, or mostly got behind if zerg droned after 6-10ling while I had them running around base for 5mins. Certainly wouldn't harm if all races had these lame <6min strategies removed :>
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I've actually played few pvz vs The Notorious Actionjesuz himself Well rvz into pvz, didn't stop him from 6pooling tho. Mostly he said he'd do it, but I managed to lose one game even while blind 10gating. Well it should be defendable with 10gate unless you fuck up, but still not autowin.
It's nice to have someone in ladder who you can rely to 6pool, gives you decent practice against it 
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I've learned that 6-7 pooling is a pretty popular strat in mid masters, atleast against toss (me being the toss). At times I face it 2-3 games in a row, and losing to it often.
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Firstly, 6 pool and 7pool is quite a bit of a difference IMHO... This one Drone really helps you recover into a longer game if you didn't win with your rush.
But I think doing cheesey builds just for some emblem or whatever is just stupid; it's not like you win anything (real money or sth.) and you'll just stay on the same level of play, or even decrease in skill.
If you're having fun doing this, do it, but if you want to achieve anything meaningful in the game and get better at it, it's the last thing I'd do.
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Holy crap are 6/7 pools really that viable against P and Z in masters? I'm masters and hold off 6/7pools with standard 14 pool easily? I don't even try to 7 pool protoss because I feel like they'll beat it.
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This bullshit, if we are to be serious for a bit, is one of the reasons i hate SC2. Even though I'm a 3500 Master protoss (season1), I still lose ALOT to 6pools.
Why? Well, the follow ups variate ALOT. And if you aren't prepared for the followup, you lose. Let's look at them. Either, the zerg can do only lings and just continue producing lings and bruteforce his way in or he could go roaches.
Since the zerg can go roaches, I need stalkers to defend myself since zealots only won't do the job. So if I were to rush them after such a push, i would win to roaches, but not to mass continued zerglings when he is bruteforcing himself in.
If I were to rush stalkers and get them and the zerg is going the roaches. It is dead even. The zerg can if he wants expand and whatever, and the toss has to continue probing. However, any sort of 4gate follow up would only be not enough units to win against his mass roach play that would follow. Since his army is so huge, if he scouts you expanding. You would lose to a push that deny his expand long enough.
There is an another method in dealing with 6pool, that is the cannon way. This way has proven to be uneffective in my attempts. Let's say you scout the 6 pool, he runs over, you have 1 cannon down and survive. If the zerg were to have only produced those 6 lings in the beginning, he could go fast roach. Which would mean that that cannon is your ONLY DEFENCE, so you would have to place down even more cannons. If the zerg is observant with overlords, he can scout this. And go for macro game if more cannons come.
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I say every zerg should 6pool for a week and force Protoss players to adjust their "efficient" builds to account for legitimate threats, just like they keep telling us that we die to 4gate because we're "greedy".
Edit:
On April 11 2011 15:43 413X wrote:
This bullshit, if we are to be serious for a bit, is one of the reasons i hate SC2. Even though I'm a 3500 Master protoss (season1), I still lose ALOT to 6pools.
Why? Well, the follow ups variate ALOT. And if you aren't prepared for the followup, you lose. Let's look at them. Either, the zerg can do only lings and just continue producing lings and bruteforce his way in or he could go roaches.
Since the zerg can go roaches, I need stalkers to defend myself since zealots only won't do the job. So if I were to rush them after such a push, i would win to roaches, but not to mass continued zerglings when he is bruteforcing himself in.
If I were to rush stalkers and get them and the zerg is going the roaches. It is dead even. The zerg can if he wants expand and whatever, and the toss has to continue probing. However, any sort of 4gate follow up would only be not enough units to win against his mass roach play that would follow. Since his army is so huge, if he scouts you expanding. You would lose to a push that deny his expand long enough.
There is an another method in dealing with 6pool, that is the cannon way. This way has proven to be uneffective in my attempts. Let's say you scout the 6 pool, he runs over, you have 1 cannon down and survive. If the zerg were to have only produced those 6 lings in the beginning, he could go fast roach. Which would mean that that cannon is your ONLY DEFENCE, so you would have to place down even more cannons. If the zerg is observant with overlords, he can scout this. And go for macro game if more cannons come.
Scout earlier and you have time to wall off with buildings. The only way a zerg can 'follow up' from a 6pool is if you fight him with probes and lose 90% of them. Come on man. 3500 Master and you didn't think of throwing up an extra pylon at the choke? Obviously it's harder to scout on 4p maps, but it's not impossible.
Learn overlord scouting patterns for one. Any normal build will have 2 overlords, the second of which is usually sent to the natural to cover for a morphing hatchery's poor vision range. 6pool only has 1 overlord. If you ever see 2, you know it's not a 6pool.
Worst comes to worst, you might have to, gasp, delay things for a few seconds to figure out whether you need to react to 6pool or not so you know whether to cut probes to afford that second pylon. It's called managing your economy. Having an efficient 9pylon 13gate 14gas 15pylon 4gate build doesn't help you any if you don't scout and you die.
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Try sending probe after pylon to non-close posi, then if no natural, send another probe to close posi while proceeding to go up the ramp with 1st probe. While the 1st scout goes to cross posi (so you have 2 probes going close posi from both sides of the map). Basically both scouts will reach the other side of the map at the exact same time.
If zerglings come your way just warp a pylon in to close off the main until you get enough zeals out.
If you are doing a forge FE, then you can do 3 things, depending on duration.
1. Most urgent: Wall off your main with pylons.
2. Wall off your natural with gateways/pylons/2 cannons. Bring in 4/6 probes to defend just incase there is a hole until cannons warp in.
3. Build a gateway + 2 cannon wall (cannon then gateway then cannon) and plug hole with 4/6 probes until cannons warp in.
Remember to bait the lings with the scouting probe by attacking the lings.
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On April 11 2011 15:26 kickinhead wrote:
Firstly, 6 pool and 7pool is quite a bit of a difference IMHO... This one Drone really helps you recover into a longer game if you didn't win with your rush.
Actually 7pool only adds +1drone to the mix. 8pool is hugely more economical tbh. With 8pool you can actually do drone,drone,over,drone and still only be 5sec slow on 5/6th lings. With 6/7pools you can only do drone,over. So with 8pool you actually use 2 larvas more.
Imo only sense to 7pool is to be more economical in rushing til end. Like in zvz you pull drones with 2gas trick and go with 7drone 10ling, which you couldn't pull off with 6pool. Ofc 8pool doesn't autowin any other builds than really greedy stuff like hat/nexus first, but really I don't see point in going slightest bit slower lings with 7p than 6p since it's still way too much of an allin.
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On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. Lol ya I tend to get pretty angry when I lose to cheese. I am much more experienced vs 6 pool now though, so I challenge you to a 6 pool rematch whenever! My rage is never a personal attack of hatred, just me venting my frustration. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS)
I one time was on a 10 winstreak, my record was 11 winstreak. I was super pumped for the match.
I spawned on typhon peaks. PvZ. I pylonscouted.
He 6pooled me, i scouted him last GG
That pissed me really off.
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On April 11 2011 16:01 Ouga wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 15:26 kickinhead wrote:
Firstly, 6 pool and 7pool is quite a bit of a difference IMHO... This one Drone really helps you recover into a longer game if you didn't win with your rush. Actually 7pool only adds +1drone to the mix. 8pool is hugely more economical tbh. With 8pool you can actually do drone,drone,over,drone and still only be 5sec slow on 5/6th lings. With 6/7pools you can only do drone,over. So with 8pool you actually use 2 larvas more. Imo only sense to 7pool is to be more economical in rushing til end. Like in zvz you pull drones with 2gas trick and go with 7drone 10ling, which you couldn't pull off with 6pool. Ofc 8pool doesn't autowin any other builds than really greedy stuff like hat/nexus first, but really I don't see point in going slightest bit slower lings with 7p than 6p since it's still way too much of an allin.
Lol. 7pool gives plenty of economy for what it's for. 8pool is a medium-build that does nothing well.
7pool is in zvz so that you can build spines at your opponents creep.
6pool is in everything else for effectiveness.
7pool vs. Terran is just stupid, vs. protoss it's saying "Please overreact while I don't make any lings and drone up."
8pool is too slow to kill and too poor to recover.
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Lost just then to 6pool close pos meta, I scouted it after 9 pylon very fast (and suspected it because his drone was nearing my base as my scout left), went forge first (on 11), cut probes, finished wall off with a gateway and another pylon and the cannon was still 20secs away from finishing as his zerglings finished killing my forge.... I've held alot of 6pools before but IDK I defended it exactly the way I had any other time but in close positions and with him sending all his drones before the lings to harass the wall it just wasn't enough.
Thought it was funny after reading this thread today and seeing other protosses say they struggle with it, I was thinking wow its not that hard to defend and then....I lose to one :/
He was top 8 masters btw.
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On April 11 2011 15:49 Zerokaiser wrote: I say every zerg should 6pool for a week and force Protoss players to adjust their "efficient" builds to account for legitimate threats, just like they keep telling us that we die to 4gate because we're "greedy". Edit: Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 15:43 413X wrote:
This bullshit, if we are to be serious for a bit, is one of the reasons i hate SC2. Even though I'm a 3500 Master protoss (season1), I still lose ALOT to 6pools.
Why? Well, the follow ups variate ALOT. And if you aren't prepared for the followup, you lose. Let's look at them. Either, the zerg can do only lings and just continue producing lings and bruteforce his way in or he could go roaches.
Since the zerg can go roaches, I need stalkers to defend myself since zealots only won't do the job. So if I were to rush them after such a push, i would win to roaches, but not to mass continued zerglings when he is bruteforcing himself in.
If I were to rush stalkers and get them and the zerg is going the roaches. It is dead even. The zerg can if he wants expand and whatever, and the toss has to continue probing. However, any sort of 4gate follow up would only be not enough units to win against his mass roach play that would follow. Since his army is so huge, if he scouts you expanding. You would lose to a push that deny his expand long enough.
There is an another method in dealing with 6pool, that is the cannon way. This way has proven to be uneffective in my attempts. Let's say you scout the 6 pool, he runs over, you have 1 cannon down and survive. If the zerg were to have only produced those 6 lings in the beginning, he could go fast roach. Which would mean that that cannon is your ONLY DEFENCE, so you would have to place down even more cannons. If the zerg is observant with overlords, he can scout this. And go for macro game if more cannons come. Scout earlier and you have time to wall off with buildings. The only way a zerg can 'follow up' from a 6pool is if you fight him with probes and lose 90% of them. Come on man. 3500 Master and you didn't think of throwing up an extra pylon at the choke? Obviously it's harder to scout on 4p maps, but it's not impossible. Learn overlord scouting patterns for one. Any normal build will have 2 overlords, the second of which is usually sent to the natural to cover for a morphing hatchery's poor vision range. 6pool only has 1 overlord. If you ever see 2, you know it's not a 6pool. Worst comes to worst, you might have to, gasp, delay things for a few seconds to figure out whether you need to react to 6pool or not so you know whether to cut probes to afford that second pylon. It's called managing your economy. Having an efficient 9pylon 13gate 14gas 15pylon 4gate build doesn't help you any if you don't scout and you die.
Why would I want to block off? if anything that would be the stupiest thing to do. Let's say I block myself in, what whould happend? Well the zerglings would start hitting everything they can hit, any zealots that you make will spawn on the side inside your base because all the zerglings are blocking the zealot from spawning outside. Then the zerglings would hit all buildings until they have 20 hp and then kill all at the same time. At this point, you only have at most 3 zealots with the forth being canceled as the gates goes down. What exacly is your followup here? making 2 additional gates behind? Kill your own pylon and go back out? The zerg doesn't neccessarly need to kill the pylon, and he would just see if you starting wacking away on your own pylon. So why place it there in the first place?
But in my first post I complained nothing about holding off the first push. It's the followups that is tricky. Since it's a dice toss on what the opponent is doing. You cannot scout him, and each follow up has it's own counter. I'm not saying it's impossible to hold off a 6pool in any way, it's just that it can go wrong on so many places, and usually it always get's the player about even with the zerg since you had to commited so much in defending.
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On April 11 2011 15:43 413X wrote:
This bullshit, if we are to be serious for a bit, is one of the reasons i hate SC2. Even though I'm a 3500 Master protoss (season1), I still lose ALOT to 6pools.
Why? Well, the follow ups variate ALOT. And if you aren't prepared for the followup, you lose. Let's look at them. Either, the zerg can do only lings and just continue producing lings and bruteforce his way in or he could go roaches.
Since the zerg can go roaches, I need stalkers to defend myself since zealots only won't do the job. So if I were to rush them after such a push, i would win to roaches, but not to mass continued zerglings when he is bruteforcing himself in.
If I were to rush stalkers and get them and the zerg is going the roaches. It is dead even. The zerg can if he wants expand and whatever, and the toss has to continue probing. However, any sort of 4gate follow up would only be not enough units to win against his mass roach play that would follow. Since his army is so huge, if he scouts you expanding. You would lose to a push that deny his expand long enough.
There is an another method in dealing with 6pool, that is the cannon way. This way has proven to be uneffective in my attempts. Let's say you scout the 6 pool, he runs over, you have 1 cannon down and survive. If the zerg were to have only produced those 6 lings in the beginning, he could go fast roach. Which would mean that that cannon is your ONLY DEFENCE, so you would have to place down even more cannons. If the zerg is observant with overlords, he can scout this. And go for macro game if more cannons come.
stargate followup to cannon in, 1 phoenix and 1 void, what is he going to do? he will probably have a queen and you'll catch him droning or rushing with roaches, you win. No way in hell he has a second queen or hydras.
But as to hating the current state of SCII because of 6 pools, well, at least you got the better end of that stick. Zergs get 4 gated or marine SCV'd all the time (in my experience playing both protoss and zerg, zerg deals with all-ins a lot more than protoss, barring PvP if you can consider 4 gate an all in in that match up), and being prepared doesn't mean you're going to win. It's just something you have to deal with. I've broken a wall after losing 10 games in a row to 4 gates even though I was blind countering, it's not like frustration due to all-ins are unique to protoss. Until SCII stops being patched, there are going to be a wide verity of new plays and new changes breed all ins, and all we can do as players is learn the timings as best we can and try to adapt, at least you play protoss, have a coke and a smile.
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On April 11 2011 16:14 413X wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 15:49 Zerokaiser wrote: I say every zerg should 6pool for a week and force Protoss players to adjust their "efficient" builds to account for legitimate threats, just like they keep telling us that we die to 4gate because we're "greedy". Edit: On April 11 2011 15:43 413X wrote:
This bullshit, if we are to be serious for a bit, is one of the reasons i hate SC2. Even though I'm a 3500 Master protoss (season1), I still lose ALOT to 6pools.
Why? Well, the follow ups variate ALOT. And if you aren't prepared for the followup, you lose. Let's look at them. Either, the zerg can do only lings and just continue producing lings and bruteforce his way in or he could go roaches.
Since the zerg can go roaches, I need stalkers to defend myself since zealots only won't do the job. So if I were to rush them after such a push, i would win to roaches, but not to mass continued zerglings when he is bruteforcing himself in.
If I were to rush stalkers and get them and the zerg is going the roaches. It is dead even. The zerg can if he wants expand and whatever, and the toss has to continue probing. However, any sort of 4gate follow up would only be not enough units to win against his mass roach play that would follow. Since his army is so huge, if he scouts you expanding. You would lose to a push that deny his expand long enough.
There is an another method in dealing with 6pool, that is the cannon way. This way has proven to be uneffective in my attempts. Let's say you scout the 6 pool, he runs over, you have 1 cannon down and survive. If the zerg were to have only produced those 6 lings in the beginning, he could go fast roach. Which would mean that that cannon is your ONLY DEFENCE, so you would have to place down even more cannons. If the zerg is observant with overlords, he can scout this. And go for macro game if more cannons come. Scout earlier and you have time to wall off with buildings. The only way a zerg can 'follow up' from a 6pool is if you fight him with probes and lose 90% of them. Come on man. 3500 Master and you didn't think of throwing up an extra pylon at the choke? Obviously it's harder to scout on 4p maps, but it's not impossible. Learn overlord scouting patterns for one. Any normal build will have 2 overlords, the second of which is usually sent to the natural to cover for a morphing hatchery's poor vision range. 6pool only has 1 overlord. If you ever see 2, you know it's not a 6pool. Worst comes to worst, you might have to, gasp, delay things for a few seconds to figure out whether you need to react to 6pool or not so you know whether to cut probes to afford that second pylon. It's called managing your economy. Having an efficient 9pylon 13gate 14gas 15pylon 4gate build doesn't help you any if you don't scout and you die. Why would I want to block off? if anything that would be the stupiest thing to do. Let's say I block myself in, what whould happend? Well the zerglings would start hitting everything they can hit, any zealots that you make will spawn on the side inside your base because all the zerglings are blocking the zealot from spawning outside. Then the zerglings would hit all buildings until they have 20 hp and then kill all at the same time. At this point, you only have at most 3 zealots with the forth being canceled as the gates goes down. What exacly is your followup here? making 2 additional gates behind? Kill your own pylon and go back out? The zerg doesn't neccessarly need to kill the pylon, and he would just see if you starting wacking away on your own pylon. So why place it there in the first place? But in my first post I complained nothing about holding off the first push. It's the followups that is tricky. Since it's a dice toss on what the opponent is doing. You cannot scout him, and each follow up has it's own counter. I'm not saying it's impossible to hold off a 6pool in any way, it's just that it can go wrong on so many places, and usually it always get's the player about even with the zerg since you had to commited so much in defending.
How did you ever get to 3500 masters if you've never heard of a forge?
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On April 11 2011 08:14 rottenpotato wrote:Kiwikaki was the only Protoss able to hold it off without a forge. Granted I found him last and he scouted it early, he bested me. We ended up base-racing with him killing my base with zealots and kiting my ...~16 lings with 1 stalker. Nothing I could do about that one
I watched the game vs Kiwikaki and it's a quite nice replay. Kiwikaki 14-gated and did the ordinary scout route on Slag Pits and finds a finished pool at 2.03.
Kiwikaki then went another gate and blocked the ramp with pylon, zealot etc and holds it off, really nice done by Kiwikaki, especially after a pretty late first GW. After that it turned into a quite funny base race .
If you want to watch that replay - download the pack and watch Slag Pits (25).
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On April 11 2011 07:15 rottenpotato wrote:
Win ratio vs Terran: ~15-20%
Win ratio vs Zerg: ~65-75%
Win ratio vs Protoss: ~85-95%
hahahahaha. Maybe they can undo that zealot build time change they made a while ago? With better roaches, I really doubt it would bring back 2-gate zealot rushes vs z.
On April 11 2011 07:25 Zerokaiser wrote:
If a Protoss player is in the top 400 and hasn't learned how to safeguard themselves from 6pool, they deserve to lose.
If it's a 4 player map and you don't scout it in time and react, it is literally a 100% build order loss and there was nothing you could do. It's just silly. Of course anyone can stop a 6 pool on 2 player maps with a 9 scout, that's not what's stupid about it.
On April 11 2011 16:27 fIERCEbROSNAN wrote:
let's just remove 6pool and agree on the fact that it's unacceptable that zerg should have unscoutable cheeses.
I totally agree. Just make pool require a 2nd overlord or something.
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let's just remove 6pool and agree on the fact that it's unacceptable that zerg should have unscoutable cheeses.
edit: curses. my sarcasm has backfired.
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On April 11 2011 12:10 DamnCats wrote:
This is ridiculous to me. If you can't get to masters playing standard and you 6 pool your way there just to play in tournaments online you are going to get crushed regardless. Shit I've been in masters since it came out and I get crushed most of the time in online tours and I have yet to 6 pool anyone on any ladder game. No one is "handed" masters. If you play such horrendous masters players wouldn't it be easy to get into masters w/o 6 pooling constantly just by beating the "horrendous" players you're playing against?
Nothing about what you wrote makes any sense to me at all, in fact.
You may know how to play "standard" as you put it, but if you aren't in masters because of your "standard" skills and instead rely on 6 pools to get you in, that simply means you're "standard" play is diamond level. That is what you should work on. Not becoming the next ActionJesus.
The reason it sounds ridiculous and actually isn't is because of how promotions work on ladder. You need to have stability in your mmr which is impossible when you play standard. You can't be a streaky player. Winning 3 and then losing 1 consistently is what gets you promoted which is why 6 pooling works so well. It's going to work against a lot of bad players, then when the system puts you against a better player, you lose, then go back to playing slightly worse players. Yeah, you're going to get losing streaks every now and then, but overall 6 pooling gives you stability as you progress which is what gets you promoted.
If I win 8 games in a row with standard play vs 50% masters 50% diamond and then lose 3 in a row because I'm tiring after a long session then blizzard's promotion system doesn't see my mmr as stable. One minute it's masters level, the next it's "diamond" level even though I'm making mistakes(supply block,accidental ctrl group rebinding, not paying attention during scouting) because of fatigue.
Another difference is if I play standard the game's going to go on for a long time. I'm going to get in roughly 6 games in 3 hours against mostly bad opponents(assuming 6 games are 30 minutes which is a typical macro game give or take). Blizzard doesn't care what build I'm doing, I can either get 3 quick wins with 6 pool in 4-5 minutes or win 3 games in an hour and a half. It's about using my time meaningfully.
Unfortunately, teams/tournaments require masters. Masters isn't exactly a measure of skill as it is a time investmen; if I can cut my promotion time in half and still feel comfortable with my game(I play 5-6 hours of practice games a day playing STANDARD, and 2-3 laddering) why wouldn't I do it? I really don't care if it "makes sense" to you or not. In a few days I'll be exactly where I need to be and I guarantee you I won't be having any problems with people like you who "get crushed most of the time in online tours". Why do you deserve to be masters if it's an actual skill assessment when you get crushed all the time? Because it isn't, it's a time investment.
On topic, OP you lose a lot in your replays and a few games aren't 6 pool at all. Were these ALL the games you played or just a portion of them? I watched a handful out of interest in the skill level of the players you were facing and you lost A LOT. I find it incredible that you moved up that quickly with all the losses. Also, you're a huge douche in these games but I find most of your statements hilarious.
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is a good best of 7 build to throw someone off, but isn't a good strat
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On April 11 2011 08:26 Jeffbelittle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:20 Acritter wrote:On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Lemme just call you out on that. You're completely incorrect. Allow me to show you why with the 14/14 build order. 9 Overlord 14 Gas 14 Pool Oh wait, what was that? It seems you built an Overlord. Whoops! Looks like that puts you at a count of two Overlords before the gas and pool went down. Only way you're doing 14/14 with one Overlord is if you build Extractors at your main and nat and then cancel them all. Not even sure if that will work, you'll have to have a larva spawn before you cancel the Extractors. Now, I see the mistake you made. You were thinking "second Ovie BUILT," not "second Ovie TOTAL." Please be courteous when you're trying to correct someone's error, otherwise you end up looking like a jerk if you're right and stupid and uninformed if you're wrong. Okay, you're right. But let's not seriously validate the claim that 6/7/8/or 9 pools should be just eliminated from the game. It's a cheese. It's a cheese just like rushed proxy stargate play is a cheese just like proxy gates are cheese just like cannon rushing is cheese. Cheese promotes good scouting, because without scouting you lose, and if you scout and respond correctly, you'll win 100% percent of the time. There is 0 deviation between a master level 6 pool and a grand master level 6 pool. Learn to scout it, and you'll get yourself some free points.
In broodwar, a reaver drop, a proxy gate, and a 4 pool were all cheeses. But some cheeses require some skill, and can also be scouted and combated even if they weren't scouted. Other cheeses rely only on blind luck and don't require very much micro.
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On April 11 2011 16:49 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:26 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:20 Acritter wrote:On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Lemme just call you out on that. You're completely incorrect. Allow me to show you why with the 14/14 build order. 9 Overlord 14 Gas 14 Pool Oh wait, what was that? It seems you built an Overlord. Whoops! Looks like that puts you at a count of two Overlords before the gas and pool went down. Only way you're doing 14/14 with one Overlord is if you build Extractors at your main and nat and then cancel them all. Not even sure if that will work, you'll have to have a larva spawn before you cancel the Extractors. Now, I see the mistake you made. You were thinking "second Ovie BUILT," not "second Ovie TOTAL." Please be courteous when you're trying to correct someone's error, otherwise you end up looking like a jerk if you're right and stupid and uninformed if you're wrong. Okay, you're right. But let's not seriously validate the claim that 6/7/8/or 9 pools should be just eliminated from the game. It's a cheese. It's a cheese just like rushed proxy stargate play is a cheese just like proxy gates are cheese just like cannon rushing is cheese. Cheese promotes good scouting, because without scouting you lose, and if you scout and respond correctly, you'll win 100% percent of the time. There is 0 deviation between a master level 6 pool and a grand master level 6 pool. Learn to scout it, and you'll get yourself some free points. In broodwar, a reaver drop, a proxy gate, and a 4 pool were all cheeses. But some cheeses require some skill, and can also be scouted and combated even if they weren't scouted. Other cheeses rely only on blind luck and don't require very much micro.
What how is reaver drop cheese at all?
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On April 11 2011 16:32 shadowboxer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 12:10 DamnCats wrote:
This is ridiculous to me. If you can't get to masters playing standard and you 6 pool your way there just to play in tournaments online you are going to get crushed regardless. Shit I've been in masters since it came out and I get crushed most of the time in online tours and I have yet to 6 pool anyone on any ladder game. No one is "handed" masters. If you play such horrendous masters players wouldn't it be easy to get into masters w/o 6 pooling constantly just by beating the "horrendous" players you're playing against?
Nothing about what you wrote makes any sense to me at all, in fact.
You may know how to play "standard" as you put it, but if you aren't in masters because of your "standard" skills and instead rely on 6 pools to get you in, that simply means you're "standard" play is diamond level. That is what you should work on. Not becoming the next ActionJesus.
The reason it sounds ridiculous and actually isn't is because of how promotions work on ladder. You need to have stability in your mmr which is impossible when you play standard. You can't be a streaky player. Winning 3 and then losing 1 consistently is what gets you promoted which is why 6 pooling works so well. It's going to work against a lot of bad players, then when the system puts you against a better player, you lose, then go back to playing slightly worse players. Yeah, you're going to get losing streaks every now and then, but overall 6 pooling gives you stability as you progress which is what gets you promoted. If I win 8 games in a row with standard play vs 50% masters 50% diamond and then lose 3 in a row because I'm tiring after a long session then blizzard's promotion system doesn't see my mmr as stable. One minute it's masters level, the next it's "diamond" level even though I'm making mistakes(supply block,accidental ctrl group rebinding, not paying attention during scouting) because of fatigue. Another difference is if I play standard the game's going to go on for a long time. I'm going to get in roughly 6 games in 3 hours against mostly bad opponents(assuming 6 games are 30 minutes which is a typical macro game give or take). Blizzard doesn't care what build I'm doing, I can either get 3 quick wins with 6 pool in 4-5 minutes or win 3 games in an hour and a half. It's about using my time meaningfully. Unfortunately, teams/tournaments require masters. Masters isn't exactly a measure of skill as it is a time investmen; if I can cut my promotion time in half and still feel comfortable with my game(I play 5-6 hours of practice games a day playing STANDARD, and 2-3 laddering) why wouldn't I do it? I really don't care if it "makes sense" to you or not. In a few days I'll be exactly where I need to be and I guarantee you I won't be having any problems with people like you who "get crushed most of the time in online tours". Why do you deserve to be masters if it's an actual skill assessment when you get crushed all the time? Because it isn't, it's a time investment. On topic, OP you lose a lot in your replays and a few games aren't 6 pool at all. Were these ALL the games you played or just a portion of them? I watched a handful out of interest in the skill level of the players you were facing and you lost A LOT. I find it incredible that you moved up that quickly with all the losses. Also, you're a huge douche in these games but I find most of your statements hilarious.
Literally all of them for the lockout week. I removed the few UMS games I played though...Someone told me a Zealot Frenzy snuck through, oh well
I talked throughout the thread about it becoming harder and harder near the end of the week. There came a point where I stopped trying to do it vs Terran altogether.
I'm glad my chat made you smile
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a zerg combatex? who would have thought
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On April 11 2011 16:24 TheSilverfox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:14 rottenpotato wrote:Kiwikaki was the only Protoss able to hold it off without a forge. Granted I found him last and he scouted it early, he bested me. We ended up base-racing with him killing my base with zealots and kiting my ...~16 lings with 1 stalker. Nothing I could do about that one I watched the game vs Kiwikaki and it's a quite nice replay. Kiwikaki 14-gated and did the ordinary scout route on Slag Pits and finds a finished pool at 2.03. Kiwikaki then went another gate and blocked the ramp with pylon, zealot etc and holds it off, really nice done by Kiwikaki, especially after a pretty late first GW. After that it turned into a quite funny base race . If you want to watch that replay - download the pack and watch Slag Pits (25).
so nice, such an honor to play against kiwi, i wish i can play with/against him ><
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On April 11 2011 07:31 CanucksJC wrote:
Umm no... if you scout 6 pool second last or last on 4 player maps, you lose. I'm pretty sure it's unwinnable if you scout last on these huge maps now lol. You scout their base when lings are already in :s
even if you scout it and find it on the last spot in a 4 player map the lings wont be entering your base UN-noticed unless you just are not aware of your map... and if you are ... that's your issue and your failing you deserve to lose for not having map control. also how many toss/terran dont wall off vs a zerg? toss leave room for a zealot...easily closed by a pylon. and you cant say but the lings will kill the pylon and get in anyway... yes they will kill it but the 3 you build behind the first gives you more time for a single cannon to win you the game!
obviously maps like scrap station where the ramp is huge ... its probably a loss for anyone but another zerg player. in which case it comes down to micro.
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A few day's ago I saw root.Destiny do 7pool but it was more macro oriented.
He would get his lings out early and he kept talking about how safe it was in most matchups.
Anyone have any information on that?
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On April 11 2011 17:38 ClutterLustRott wrote:
A few day's ago I saw root.Destiny do 7pool but it was more macro oriented.
He would get his lings out early and he kept talking about how safe it was in most matchups.
Anyone have any information on that?
I think you are reffering to the 7 pool, drone to 9, double extractor trick 6 lings build!
I do find that very strong vs protoss. Let me find a link for that.
Edit: Refer to posts by catz on this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189702
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Funny how many zergs are commentating here who've obviously never played against a decent 6 pooler. It's piss easy to transition out of, protoss pretty much has to get a forge and cannon if it wants to stay safe vs a roach follow up or keep its economic lead (=not use probes as fighting units). Zerg can easily take an expo and drone happily with larva inject. Then it sends an overlord in your base before you can possibly have a stalker out, see's how many gas you have, probably will see exactly what you're doing and what buildings you've got, he makes the counter, he wins!
The only games I've won vs 6 pool as a mid masters game spammer are ones where the opponent quit right after his lings found a wall-off (LOL), or my opponent just didn't take advantage of his scouting capabilities and I surprised him (whether that's a 5:30min zealot rush, voidray rush or DT rush, 4 gate always fails btw ).
Having larva inject so early really makes zerg so much stronger. :/
edit: I'm gonna watch that kiwikaki game though, maybe one doesn't need a forge to defend.
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I can usually hold off a 6-pool with a forge and cannon, but that requires scouting and if you scout em last on a 4 player map you're pretty much dead as has been said before. And to the zergs saying they have to account for 4 gate so you should do a safer build.../facepalm.
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On April 11 2011 08:04 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:39 ZasZ. wrote:On April 11 2011 07:36 bkrow wrote:On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are. "Ruined every elses ladder experience" - are you serious!?!?! That is close to the most RIDICULOUS thing i have ever read on these forums! If you lose to a 6pool the only person responsible for ruining your ladder experience.. IS YOU! You sound really offended over someone 6pooling which to me sounds a little strange. If you're good enough to be top400 you are good enough to learn how to defend a 6pool; the only person responsible for your laddy experience is YOU While it's true that top400 should know how to stop a 6 pool...your opponents are more than capable of ruining your ladder experience. YOU only have control over which builds you choose to do in response to what your opponent does. If for some reason, in some hypothetical world, all of the people you went up against in ladder cheesed, you could certainly stop it but would it be fun? I'd pretty much consider my ladder experience ruined. That said, I'm not surprised at the OP. It's no new development that cheese works at the highest levels of play against opponents that are unprepared for it. Combine that with a ladder that tends to match you up against different people every time until the very top levels of play and you have a recipe for cheesy success. I am not saying that your ladder experience won't be ruined; i am saying you are the only one responsible for this. You are responsible for every game you lose; people constantly look for everyone/thing else to blame when they lose games - balance, maps, oh he cheesed me - the real answer is simple.. BE BETTER .. If you learn how to counter cheese you would be winning every game and your ladder experience would be amazing; how come we are so proud of ourselves when we win, but when we lose it is someone elses fault? Anyway; cheese has always worked at a high level and is an important part of the game particularly in a Bo3/5/7 etc where you need your play to remain unpredictable. We have seen the best players in the world cheese in the middle of a series or when they sense it is appropriate
i dont think you understand him, even if you beat a 6pool you still had an awefull game and your laddering experience is still ruined
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On April 11 2011 16:14 413X wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 15:49 Zerokaiser wrote: I say every zerg should 6pool for a week and force Protoss players to adjust their "efficient" builds to account for legitimate threats, just like they keep telling us that we die to 4gate because we're "greedy". Edit: On April 11 2011 15:43 413X wrote:
This bullshit, if we are to be serious for a bit, is one of the reasons i hate SC2. Even though I'm a 3500 Master protoss (season1), I still lose ALOT to 6pools.
Why? Well, the follow ups variate ALOT. And if you aren't prepared for the followup, you lose. Let's look at them. Either, the zerg can do only lings and just continue producing lings and bruteforce his way in or he could go roaches.
Since the zerg can go roaches, I need stalkers to defend myself since zealots only won't do the job. So if I were to rush them after such a push, i would win to roaches, but not to mass continued zerglings when he is bruteforcing himself in.
If I were to rush stalkers and get them and the zerg is going the roaches. It is dead even. The zerg can if he wants expand and whatever, and the toss has to continue probing. However, any sort of 4gate follow up would only be not enough units to win against his mass roach play that would follow. Since his army is so huge, if he scouts you expanding. You would lose to a push that deny his expand long enough.
There is an another method in dealing with 6pool, that is the cannon way. This way has proven to be uneffective in my attempts. Let's say you scout the 6 pool, he runs over, you have 1 cannon down and survive. If the zerg were to have only produced those 6 lings in the beginning, he could go fast roach. Which would mean that that cannon is your ONLY DEFENCE, so you would have to place down even more cannons. If the zerg is observant with overlords, he can scout this. And go for macro game if more cannons come. Scout earlier and you have time to wall off with buildings. The only way a zerg can 'follow up' from a 6pool is if you fight him with probes and lose 90% of them. Come on man. 3500 Master and you didn't think of throwing up an extra pylon at the choke? Obviously it's harder to scout on 4p maps, but it's not impossible. Learn overlord scouting patterns for one. Any normal build will have 2 overlords, the second of which is usually sent to the natural to cover for a morphing hatchery's poor vision range. 6pool only has 1 overlord. If you ever see 2, you know it's not a 6pool. Worst comes to worst, you might have to, gasp, delay things for a few seconds to figure out whether you need to react to 6pool or not so you know whether to cut probes to afford that second pylon. It's called managing your economy. Having an efficient 9pylon 13gate 14gas 15pylon 4gate build doesn't help you any if you don't scout and you die. Why would I want to block off? if anything that would be the stupiest thing to do. Let's say I block myself in, what whould happend? Well the zerglings would start hitting everything they can hit, any zealots that you make will spawn on the side inside your base because all the zerglings are blocking the zealot from spawning outside. Then the zerglings would hit all buildings until they have 20 hp and then kill all at the same time. At this point, you only have at most 3 zealots with the forth being canceled as the gates goes down. What exacly is your followup here? making 2 additional gates behind? Kill your own pylon and go back out? The zerg doesn't neccessarly need to kill the pylon, and he would just see if you starting wacking away on your own pylon. So why place it there in the first place? But in my first post I complained nothing about holding off the first push. It's the followups that is tricky. Since it's a dice toss on what the opponent is doing. You cannot scout him, and each follow up has it's own counter. I'm not saying it's impossible to hold off a 6pool in any way, it's just that it can go wrong on so many places, and usually it always get's the player about even with the zerg since you had to commited so much in defending.
Lol...it's pretty obvious that you aren't looking for ways to defend it. You're just looking to bitch.
Even if you've never heard of a forge and you're walling gateway-cybercore-pylon, chronoboost a couple zealots then destroy the walling pylon after you won't be overwhelmed. Tah-dah. What the do you expect the zerg player to have?
You don't seem to understand that 6pool is all-in.
The only way 6pool can outright kill you is if he brings all his drones, at which point all you need to do is not lose every single probe and you win. Even if you were to remake 5 gateways before you hold him off, all you have to do is not lose every probe.
A 6pool with no drones being brought is weak, and you can hold off 6lings with nothing but probes and still be ahead. Zerg players do it all the time 15hatching in ZvZ. Learn your worker micro.
The hardest thing you'll ever have to do is hold off 6-10 lings with every drone. How do you do that? By walling off. Again, when you're getting 6pooled, throw your build out the window and just survive. It's very doable even with a cybercore and zealots.
It's academic if you just wall gateway-forge-pylon, chrono zealots while you make a cannon. It's a win. Drone-6pools that don't do damage do not have followups. Droneless-6pools do not kill you if you have even rudimentary crisis management skills.
The only time a 6pool should ever kill a Protoss player is if they're taken by surprise and they've invested the resources they'd need to finish the wall-off.
I'll stress the follow-up thing again, since that's what you're talking mostly about. A truly all-in 6pool brings the drones and has no followup. A 6pool with lings only can be held off with minimal defensive investments (you can make a cybercore) and some decent unit control. At the end of the day versus a "non-all-in 6pool" (lol) you're still going to be economically ahead, technologically ahead, and have defender's advantage and inevitability advantage versus any roach builds.
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thi just shows how bad people are till the very top of the ladder, 6 pool is not something one should lose to more then 1 out of 10 times
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On April 11 2011 08:10 proxY_ wrote:6 pool is bad against terran because if terran has even a little warning they can depot wall off (90% of terrans wall themselves initially against z anyway) and then they can indefinitely repair the wall while marines trickle out of the rax and shoot the lings from behind the safety of the wall.
Lol why does that sound cute? It's true though, I'm assuming the 10-20% terrans just didn't feel like walling?
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On April 11 2011 18:18 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:10 proxY_ wrote:6 pool is bad against terran because if terran has even a little warning they can depot wall off (90% of terrans wall themselves initially against z anyway) and then they can indefinitely repair the wall while marines trickle out of the rax and shoot the lings from behind the safety of the wall. Lol why does that sound cute? It's true though, I'm assuming the 10-20% terrans just didn't feel like walling?
Ironically, it's the more cautious Terrans that often lose to 6pool. They don't wall off with a depot in defense of banelings, but as a consequence they don't have that super-fast depot-rax-depot wall.
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On April 11 2011 07:32 Munk-E wrote:
as a high diamond, and experienced 6/7pooler, I find that protoss are getting better at defending it. I have like an 80% win rate with 7 pool double spine crawler rush ZVZ.
I was going to write a guide on 7 pooling, maybe I will.
Pleaaaaaase don't!!
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I didnt went through the pages 2 to 11, but as a Diamond 6pooler myself, I'm lookinf to share my meager experience and look for some advices
my feedback first: 6pool blows. If you are "stuck" between bronze and platinium and firmly believe that you deserve to be higher, just 6pool all day, it'll probably gets you to diamond. You'll probably get your ass handed to you after that, but hey! you're in diamond. Against zergs, it gets even nastier, as I send a drone to put down a spine crawler a few seconds before my glings comes in.
However, I'm having some troubles on 4 players map, where i have to send a scout to know where to strike (and maybe prevent a wall by patrolling). I usually makes one right after, as I send it around 25% of my pool, leaving way enough time for getting the larva back. Should I keep it that way or is it sustainable with 4 drones mining?
Also, I sometimes 6pool'd while making 2 more drones during the pool build time. This allows me to have 7 drones, 3 larvas and 150 minerals when pool goes up. The next larva have to be an overlord, and when it pops, i usually have enough for a queen. It probably can be very effective in ZvZ (maybe wonderful if i send a drone before to put a spine crawler, which would allow one more batch of gling or drone before the overlord), but it will almost never win you a game as soon as your opponent cant box his workers and a-move. But it may cripple his economy badly, and let him believe you're more fucked than you really are (due to the 2 more drones and the faster queen).
Also, if you really crippled him but not entirely, your best move may be to just prepare another 1-base push with bling or roaches. First because he will probably counter-push with a small force, and try to kill you, second because he'll be angry at losing so much and will want to expand/tech asap.
And dont forget: tear collecting zerg is best zerg.
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On April 11 2011 18:20 Zerokaiser wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 18:18 wolfe wrote:On April 11 2011 08:10 proxY_ wrote:6 pool is bad against terran because if terran has even a little warning they can depot wall off (90% of terrans wall themselves initially against z anyway) and then they can indefinitely repair the wall while marines trickle out of the rax and shoot the lings from behind the safety of the wall. Lol why does that sound cute? It's true though, I'm assuming the 10-20% terrans just didn't feel like walling? Ironically, it's the more cautious Terrans that often lose to 6pool. They don't wall off with a depot in defense of banelings, but as a consequence they don't have that super-fast depot-rax-depot wall.
Odd, I don't enjoy the "new style" wall ins for that exact reason. It leaves you open to early pools in defense for a better baneling wall. Banelings can be scouted far in advance (compared to a 6pool) and a thicker wall can be erected.
More often than not I can still wall in by lifting a few rax/facts and building rax/depot/bunker to fill in the gaps. Haven't really had any baneling problems. Especially since I enjoy opening with hellions; more than 6 lings early is a dead give away even if they 14hatched.
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On April 11 2011 07:37 Mephiztopheles1 wrote:
Only when a MU/map is broken in his opinion (like 6 pooling Jinro on JB), or he doesn't value his opponent too much. At least that's the impression that I get.
Please... every matchup is broken in his opinion.
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It's really hard if you scout it last on a 4 player map that the six pool is coming. However I've hold it with ease even on Scrap Station with biggest choke ever. I went 11 gate + forge + gate, then chrono'd out zealot to delay the push and put down a single cannon. After that I transition with +3 more warpgates and take a expansion, then it's just down to a normal macro game.
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On April 11 2011 13:31 Perplex wrote:
a terran that walls off and knows what SCV repair is should really never lose to 6pool except MAYBE on close spawns..
Yes, Steppes of War is actually a Terran nightmare once Zergs found out how to worker harass so effectively.
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Well the majority of builds out there nowadays are builds made to exploit the fact that zergs usually arent all that agressive in the early stages of the game so i can see it working great (ACTIONJESUS STYLE) but 6 pooling every game wont do much else other than boost your ladder stats.
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On April 11 2011 17:52 Ghoststrikes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 17:38 ClutterLustRott wrote:
A few day's ago I saw root.Destiny do 7pool but it was more macro oriented.
He would get his lings out early and he kept talking about how safe it was in most matchups.
Anyone have any information on that? I think you are reffering to the 7 pool, drone to 9, double extractor trick 6 lings build! I do find that very strong vs protoss. Let me find a link for that. Edit: Refer to posts by catz on this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189702
Thank you so much. I deffinately want to learn this opener.
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On April 11 2011 18:10 Zerokaiser wrote:
Lol...it's pretty obvious that you aren't looking for ways to defend it. You're just looking to bitch.
Even if you've never heard of a forge and you're walling gateway-cybercore-pylon, chronoboost a couple zealots then destroy the walling pylon after you won't be overwhelmed. Tah-dah. What the do you expect the zerg player to have?
If you made a core, you'll have 2 zealots tops vs 12+ lings, with your gateway dead and no reinforcements. Still winnable but extremely difficult.
The only way 6pool can outright kill you is if he brings all his drones, at which point all you need to do is not lose every single probe and you win. Even if you were to remake 5 gateways before you hold him off, all you have to do is not lose every probe.
You should try watching people fail to defend it. Lots of them tried to remake 5 gateways. They all died.
A 6pool with no drones being brought is weak, and you can hold off 6lings with nothing but probes and still be ahead. Zerg players do it all the time 15hatching in ZvZ. Learn your worker micro.
6pool isn't 6 lings, it's 6 initial lings with constant reinforcements. Yes, stopping 6 lings is easy. Stopping 12+ by the time your wall is down isn't easy. Doable, but not easy.
It's academic if you just wall gateway-forge-pylon, chrono zealots while you make a cannon. It's a win. Drone-6pools that don't do damage do not have followups. Droneless-6pools do not kill you if you have even rudimentary crisis management skills.
Lots of people try this and lose (about half the losses). If you scout him real early (close ground on temple say) then it's really simple, but anything longer and you need to buy time with probes+zealot micro, which is pretty damn easy to screw up.
Defending 6pool is not simple and easy. It is on close positions, but in other cases you'll need to be very very careful with your zealot+probe micro. It's really easy to lose.
How about you post some replays of you defending 6pools with a core going up?
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My friend downloaded the replay pack, and his computer got some virus now that he is trying to fix
*****: i got a huge virus
*****: from that link you sent me
*****: i download the repack
*****: and got a huge virus
*****: now my shit wont work at all
Just a warning for you folks
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On April 11 2011 19:34 wxwx wrote:My friend downloaded the replay pack, and his computer got some virus now that he is trying to fix Show nested quote +*****: i got a huge virus
*****: from that link you sent me
*****: i download the repack
*****: and got a huge virus
*****: now my shit wont work at all
Just a warning for you folks
Please don't spread nonsense. .rar itself can't have a virus, and there are only .sc2replay files inside.
Sorry about your friends PC, but something else caused it.
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On April 11 2011 19:41 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 19:34 wxwx wrote:My friend downloaded the replay pack, and his computer got some virus now that he is trying to fix *****: i got a huge virus
*****: from that link you sent me
*****: i download the repack
*****: and got a huge virus
*****: now my shit wont work at all
Just a warning for you folks Please don't spread nonsense. .rar itself can't have a virus, and there are only .sc2replay files inside. Sorry about your friends PC, but something else caused it.
I got that too, my antivirus prevented me from going on the site. I think it's the mediafire ads, cause when I refreshed it was fine
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On April 11 2011 18:18 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:10 proxY_ wrote:6 pool is bad against terran because if terran has even a little warning they can depot wall off (90% of terrans wall themselves initially against z anyway) and then they can indefinitely repair the wall while marines trickle out of the rax and shoot the lings from behind the safety of the wall. Lol why does that sound cute? It's true though, I'm assuming the 10-20% terrans just didn't feel like walling?
baneling proof walls,different builds,too late scouted or just look at how most Terrans build a 2rax on a map like shakuras .
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On April 11 2011 07:18 dacthehork wrote:
Anything that wins that high of a % is viable, although I would learn a different ZvT allin like baneling bust.
Cheese is part of the game, if anything more people should cheese / do refined cheese/timing attacks because overall it will help ladder players test their builds more anyway.
It's a big flaw that NA players don't refine timing attacks / cheese because it just helps everyone, including macro players who have to actually execute their "standard" builds better / react better to cheese.
If anything it exemplifies how "soft" (terrible) NA ladder / non top top players is/are.
Cheese more so we don't have to lose to cheese?
...
There's a simpler solution.
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On April 11 2011 19:45 Ghoststrikes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 19:41 Yaotzin wrote:On April 11 2011 19:34 wxwx wrote:My friend downloaded the replay pack, and his computer got some virus now that he is trying to fix *****: i got a huge virus
*****: from that link you sent me
*****: i download the repack
*****: and got a huge virus
*****: now my shit wont work at all
Just a warning for you folks Please don't spread nonsense. .rar itself can't have a virus, and there are only .sc2replay files inside. Sorry about your friends PC, but something else caused it. I got that too, my antivirus prevented me from going on the site. I think it's the mediafire ads, cause when I refreshed it was fine
Can the OP please modify the topic and tell people who are downloading to be careful of this? I am pretty certain its the ads. One misclick and you could get infected! Be careful!
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On April 11 2011 18:27 wolfe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 18:20 Zerokaiser wrote:On April 11 2011 18:18 wolfe wrote:On April 11 2011 08:10 proxY_ wrote:6 pool is bad against terran because if terran has even a little warning they can depot wall off (90% of terrans wall themselves initially against z anyway) and then they can indefinitely repair the wall while marines trickle out of the rax and shoot the lings from behind the safety of the wall. Lol why does that sound cute? It's true though, I'm assuming the 10-20% terrans just didn't feel like walling? Ironically, it's the more cautious Terrans that often lose to 6pool. They don't wall off with a depot in defense of banelings, but as a consequence they don't have that super-fast depot-rax-depot wall. Odd, I don't enjoy the "new style" wall ins for that exact reason. It leaves you open to early pools in defense for a better baneling wall. Banelings can be scouted far in advance (compared to a 6pool) and a thicker wall can be erected. More often than not I can still wall in by lifting a few rax/facts and building rax/depot/bunker to fill in the gaps. Haven't really had any baneling problems. Especially since I enjoy opening with hellions; more than 6 lings early is a dead give away even if they 14hatched.
Yeah I agree, I always go for the 2 depot + rax wall off. The only trouble is that I go refinery before rax against Z so can maybe get caught out every so often. And when I scout banelings, because tbh the 1 base bling bust is incredibly easy to scout, I just put a bunker behind one depot and a tank behind the other (timing works out so the tank gets there maybe 20 seconds before the bust on most maps, and if they're late then it has siege as well).
P.S hellion openings ftw.
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Don't try to 6pool on Taldarim though, it's the definition of fail. Atleast vs a protoss that knows how to send a probe to scout =P
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It's sort of discouraging that you can get to 3800 just by 6 pooling, i couldnt even get there playing standard Makes me feel terrible that 6 pool (the easiest strat ever) can get that far : /
Nicely done though, i only thought six pool worked like 10% of the time Soooo, why arent zergs just doing this more? Especially vs protoss who they complain about so much.
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On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. Lol ya I tend to get pretty angry when I lose to cheese. I am much more experienced vs 6 pool now though, so I challenge you to a 6 pool rematch whenever! My rage is never a personal attack of hatred, just me venting my frustration. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS)
lets make warp gate require 2 cybers too
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wow so this is the reason why every fucking pvz is 6-7 pool these days
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On April 11 2011 21:28 Logican wrote:
wow so this is the reason why every fucking pvz is 6-7 pool these days
I think it's more because many zergs are having issues with handling late game protosses. Better to end it early on a coinflip, than to go to a lategame when you can't figure out how to beat them, right?
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If u would meet me on the ladder u would beat me on big maps since i play CC first alot.
But i was only 6pooled once or twice after advancing to masters league and that was on scrap ^^.
I think it works so well because the current metagame (atleast in masters) has 15 hatch in 90% of the games promoting CC and Nexus first builds.
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If zerg players can hold a 7 pool without a wall and an enemy spine crawler built directly inside their base, protoss players should be able too. Maybe you are not used to it and need more practice, or are going for a too greedy late gateway.
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On April 11 2011 21:38 NeonFox wrote:
If zerg players can hold a 7 pool without a wall and an enemy spine crawler built directly inside their base, protoss players should be able too. Maybe you are not used to it and need more practice, or are going for a too greedy late gateway.
nvm
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This is really hilarious, fun replay pack to watch actually.
A lot of WC3 players 4gate just out of habit, they want to micro, not macro. While cheesing everygame will fuck your over in a tourney, it's fine for ladder.
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On April 11 2011 21:23 alepov wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. Lol ya I tend to get pretty angry when I lose to cheese. I am much more experienced vs 6 pool now though, so I challenge you to a 6 pool rematch whenever! My rage is never a personal attack of hatred, just me venting my frustration. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) lets make warp gate require 2 cybers too
Hey, they made Barracks require supply depot, it could happen. My poor BBS strategy...Q.Q
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Cheese and onebasing gets you high on the ladder and wins games for you in tournaments, beating players you'd normally have no chance against.
Nothing new.
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How do you lose against a 6/7 pool. I can hold it with protoss and terran with ease :/
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I'm one of those master's league protoss players who loses every single time to the 6-pool...
If I scouted earlier I could hold it off.
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United Arab Emirates1141 Posts
On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are.
His point is that 6-Pool actually worked, and that he only did it because he didn't have enough time on his hands, so might as well do some probability testing. Aaaaaaand it turns out the NA ladder is apparently not 6-pool proof
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FFE is autoloss against early pool unless it's on like Taldarim cross spots where you can get the cannon up. But unless you do 9scout, you will never see it in time.
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Protoss rage due to six pool is exactly like zerg rage to cannon rush. I did watch the replay pack though, funny stuff. Especially the game against whiplash.
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i only lose to a 7 pool on scrap (the larger ramps seems tempting for zergs) if i play normal ... but normally i do a cc first and lift of to the two islands if a zerg does this. Ahead in workers ahead in bases and flames or instant leave is common. It works since zergs never go for a 11 pool against a terran ^^.
But around my level on europe, tosses are normally pretty mannered and say glhf, but rage quiet fast about imba. Zergs are normally pretty bm if they lose their a click and terrans normally say nothing.
Micro is pretty uncommon in the ladder that makes cheese if you can micro so good. You start to encounter good Micro commonly at mid master, before everything is a click ^^.
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My standard is to forge first vs zerg now knowing about 50% of them 6 pool or roach all in.
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I've been doing CatZ' 7pool build vs. every protoss I meet on a 4 player map. If they don't scout me first, or try a forge FE, it's auto-win.
I'm only doing this cause I can't seem to beat a toss these days. But works for me for now.
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Wow interesting facts, I never knew that 6/7 pools have such high percentages at high level, I guess I will try to incorporate it in my play for tournaments. I will have to train it tho, never done it.
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ActionJesus did this before you :p
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The pack in the OP actually has games with roach rushes, regular macro games, private games with friends, and even Zealot Frenzy games. I sorted it out and made a pack with only the pool first builds.
http://drop.sc/packs/72
Using these only, the win rate is:
ZvT: 25%
ZvP: 63%
ZvZ: 66%
Far from the 90% announced.
Now, taking the ZvP part for example, the win rate vs people who went Pylon, Gateway, Forge is down to 52% (That includes people who build it late or out of position or every other mistake possible). The win vs people who did not build a forge is 70%.
If I was able to sort out replays of people who didn't scout or didn't respond appropriately, my guess is that we would find the win rate would be much lower.
My point is don't freak out for too much. First he wasn't THAT successful, and second, the people who lost did not prepare accordingly for it and it was entirely their fault.
For instance, Whiplash scouted the 6 pool first, before the first gateway was even started, and yet he made no forge and built 2 gateways instead, which of course were too late for the lings. There is no excuse.
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On April 11 2011 23:14 Wiwiweb wrote:
My point is don't freak out for too much. First he wasn't THAT successful, and second, the people who lost did not prepare accordingly for it and it was entirely their fault.
He was very successful. He got to an MMR where he could play top NA players, by 6pooling.
For instance, Whiplash scouted the 6 pool first, before the first gateway was even started, and yet he made no forge and built 2 gateways instead, which of course were too late for the lings. There is no excuse.
Kiwikaki did 2 gateways too. It works fine if your micro is up to scratch.
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Win ratio vs Terran: ~15-20%
Win ratio vs Zerg: ~65-75%
Win ratio vs Protoss: ~85-95%
Clearly Protoss players on ladder play WAY too greedy. Zergs just need to start 6pooling ~40% of the time on 4-player maps against them and eventually they'll have to start going 10-gate or whatever. I mean, when you think about it, gate on 14 is quite a lot of probes before production. Forcing a toss player to be more conservative early is the obvious way to get a slight advantage later on in the game.
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Cheese is strong in sc2 what's new imo.
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imo its a little bit sad that you can get so high with it, and it shows that its a maybe a little sign of early game imba.
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It's only because the terran you meet are good, and the protoss and zergs who respectively don't need skill in pvz/pvt and in zvt are just bad.
User was warned for this post
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No it's because holding a 6pool is naturally far, far easier for Terran. They get bunkers and ranged units which can shoot from behind a SCV wall.
imo its a little bit sad that you can get so high with it, and it shows that its a maybe a little sign of early game imba.
It's just a sign of terribad NA players. Watch the games, some of the "defences" are utterly comical.
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It shows the evolution of metagame. Everybody was pissing on 6pools when everybody was walling off in every matchups with a 11 gate and an expand after 15 minutes, if everything goes well.
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most toss players with brain wall off as well and its reasonable to scout at 9, for terran its just because of the wall in that more much more people.
and in ZvZ 6/7 pool is really strong if not scoutet early enough - deadlier than in any other matchup, just cause its a mirror and you cant defend in a macro way.
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I spit on this thread
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 11 2011 23:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 23:14 Wiwiweb wrote:
My point is don't freak out for too much. First he wasn't THAT successful, and second, the people who lost did not prepare accordingly for it and it was entirely their fault.
He was very successful. He got to an MMR where he could play top NA players, by 6pooling.
This just proves that the majority of top NA players don't know how to counter a 6 pool. Besides he was able to get there by also mixing in other builds.
On April 11 2011 23:20 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +
For instance, Whiplash scouted the 6 pool first, before the first gateway was even started, and yet he made no forge and built 2 gateways instead, which of course were too late for the lings. There is no excuse.
Kiwikaki did 2 gateways too. It works fine if your micro is up to scratch.
Clearly you didn't watch the games closely enough, there were many differences:
First, the positions. Even though he built his gateway as fast as possible, Whiplash's first zealot would not have finished before the gateway was destroyed because they were in close positions. Kiwikaki was able to get his first zealot out.
Second, a mistake by rottenpotato: he was only attacking Kiwi's gateway with 3 out of 4 zerglings. Because of this, Kiwikaki was able to get a 2nd zealot out of this gateway, and was able to repel the lings once they broke in. This wouldn't have been possible with only 1 zealot.
Also note that in the end, Kiwikaki won through a base race, ending the game fast. He would have been perfectly fine with a cannon, but he would have needed to tech up before winning. This may be why he chose to 2 gate. After all, ladder is just practice for pros.
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On April 11 2011 23:49 Wiwiweb wrote:
This just proves that the majority of top NA players don't know how to counter a 6 pool. Besides he was able to get there by also mixing in other builds.
Well yes, that's what the topic is about: how clueless people are about defending 6pool...
I only watched the vP games TBH which were almost all 6pool and mostly wins.
Also note that in the end, Kiwikaki won through a base race, ending the game fast. He would have been perfectly fine with a cannon, but he would have needed to tech up before winning. This may be why he chose to 2 gate. After all, ladder is just practice for pros.
I said you can defend it with 2gate, not that you should. I agree a cannon is the safe, reliable way.
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One of Zs only cheeses and perfectly capable of scouting it and yet people still lose to it. It's not like we have myriad things we can do. 6 pool, proxy hatch (I guess), roach rush, maybe proxy evo chamber (lol)
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On April 11 2011 16:27 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:15 rottenpotato wrote:
Win ratio vs Terran: ~15-20%
Win ratio vs Zerg: ~65-75%
Win ratio vs Protoss: ~85-95%
hahahahaha. Maybe they can undo that zealot build time change they made a while ago? With better roaches, I really doubt it would bring back 2-gate zealot rushes vs z. Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:25 Zerokaiser wrote:
If a Protoss player is in the top 400 and hasn't learned how to safeguard themselves from 6pool, they deserve to lose. If it's a 4 player map and you don't scout it in time and react, it is literally a 100% build order loss and there was nothing you could do. It's just silly. Of course anyone can stop a 6 pool on 2 player maps with a 9 scout, that's not what's stupid about it. Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 16:27 fIERCEbROSNAN wrote:
let's just remove 6pool and agree on the fact that it's unacceptable that zerg should have unscoutable cheeses. Just make pool require a 2nd overlord or something.
can we please stop with this already?
Do you have any idea how brutally assraped zerg would be vs 2-rax?
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On April 11 2011 23:27 GeorgeForeman wrote:
Clearly Protoss players on ladder play WAY too greedy. Zergs just need to start 6pooling ~40% of the time on 4-player maps against them and eventually they'll have to start going 10-gate or whatever. I mean, when you think about it, gate on 14 is quite a lot of probes before production. Forcing a toss player to be more conservative early is the obvious way to get a slight advantage later on in the game.
10 Gate won't help you any against an unscouted six pool. The problem is that on a big four player map it becomes a lottery of who finds who first. If you scout them first, you lay down a forge, block with probes and pylons and hold it. If you don't you simply go "Uhhh there's lings in my base." and thats normally GG unless he can't micro for shit.
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6 pool vs protoss can beat pro gamer if you are good at micro and know what you are doing , but that about luck and position too and of course the map .
you will not kill him right away but got advantage in map he cant wall in with one zealot .
if he go standar fast exp + forge used in some map curently . you win right away .
most of the time you put the protoss realy behind in the game because he need probe and he will loss alot while the zerg not that far behind and can make queen , start some inject and start standar macro mode.
that kinda sad actualy, but sc2 make me sad all the time with the race balance.
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On April 12 2011 00:15 grobo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 16:27 Drowsy wrote:On April 11 2011 07:15 rottenpotato wrote:
Win ratio vs Terran: ~15-20%
Win ratio vs Zerg: ~65-75%
Win ratio vs Protoss: ~85-95%
hahahahaha. Maybe they can undo that zealot build time change they made a while ago? With better roaches, I really doubt it would bring back 2-gate zealot rushes vs z. On April 11 2011 07:25 Zerokaiser wrote:
If a Protoss player is in the top 400 and hasn't learned how to safeguard themselves from 6pool, they deserve to lose. If it's a 4 player map and you don't scout it in time and react, it is literally a 100% build order loss and there was nothing you could do. It's just silly. Of course anyone can stop a 6 pool on 2 player maps with a 9 scout, that's not what's stupid about it. On April 11 2011 16:27 fIERCEbROSNAN wrote:
let's just remove 6pool and agree on the fact that it's unacceptable that zerg should have unscoutable cheeses. Just make pool require a 2nd overlord or something. can we please stop with this already? Do you have any idea how brutally assraped zerg would be vs 2-rax?
Not that I agree with it or anything but I highly doubt you would scout a 2 rax before 9 supply which would be when you get your second overlord.
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On April 11 2011 23:14 Wiwiweb wrote:The pack in the OP actually has games with roach rushes, regular macro games, private games with friends, and even Zealot Frenzy games. I sorted it out and made a pack with only the pool first builds. http://drop.sc/packs/72Using these only, the win rate is: ZvT: 25% ZvP: 63% ZvZ: 66% Far from the 90% announced. Now, taking the ZvP part for example, the win rate vs people who went Pylon, Gateway, Forge is down to 52% (That includes people who build it late or out of position or every other mistake possible). The win vs people who did not build a forge is 70%. If I was able to sort out replays of people who didn't scout or didn't respond appropriately, my guess is that we would find the win rate would be much lower. My point is don't freak out for too much. First he wasn't THAT successful, and second, the people who lost did not prepare accordingly for it and it was entirely their fault. For instance, Whiplash scouted the 6 pool first, before the first gateway was even started, and yet he made no forge and built 2 gateways instead, which of course were too late for the lings. There is no excuse.
I think I mentioned it a bit earlier but I can't expect everyone to read through all 15 pages. The win rates dramatically dropped off as I neared the top 600 or so. It got progressively harder.
If you were to sort through the replays from the first half vs the last half, the percentages should be very different.
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I could go on and on about metagame and shrugging off cheese losses and continuing to go for maximal econ builds because they're more fun for high masters type players, but I won't...
I just want to thank the OP for uploading the replays and providing the accompanying information...informative and entertaining.
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these are the right words for such a thread
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you can get top 200 or w/e by doing any build. you're just playing a whole bunch of bo1's it's not like you're playing against genius tournament players every game. 4gate would prob be just as effective if not more so
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I have to chuckle at people making suggestions on how to remove cheese. It's impossible to do. Literally impossible. No matter what you add to the game to slow down rushes, there is always going to be that fastest possible rush that will be considered cheese.
On topic, as a P (not highly ranked) I also find it very hard to hold off a 6 pool if scouting in the wrong order. It can be extremely frustrating to lose to but I kind of like it because it's good for working on your crisis management. Terran rushes still give me the most trouble.
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On April 11 2011 23:27 GeorgeForeman wrote:Show nested quote +Win ratio vs Terran: ~15-20%
Win ratio vs Zerg: ~65-75%
Win ratio vs Protoss: ~85-95% Clearly Protoss players on ladder play WAY too greedy. Zergs just need to start 6pooling ~40% of the time on 4-player maps against them and eventually they'll have to start going 10-gate or whatever. I mean, when you think about it, gate on 14 is quite a lot of probes before production. Forcing a toss player to be more conservative early is the obvious way to get a slight advantage later on in the game.
13 gate can EASILY stop a 6 pool (i've never used 14 gate, but I assume it can as well), so tosses really don't need to change their builds.
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I`ve seen way more Masters level 6-pools since the new season started. It seems especially common on maps where Forge FEs are common, I guess that build has become common enough in the metagame that some Z players are just blind countering. Makes PvZ kinda boring IMO.z just 3 gate sentry expand every single game, seems to be the only safe build.
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how do you stop 6 pool while FEing as protoss?
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After wasting much time reading most of the comments in this thread, I must say I wish people would think more before posting.
A large number of people said in the comments that it is easy for protoss to hold off a 6 pool.
The OP posted a freaking replay pack! He PROVED that it is not easy to hold off. How else did
he get his ranking? How can so many mindlessly (while bragging) say something that the
OP just proved is false?????
His ranking is a DIRECT reflection of the difficulty of defeating a 6 pool.
Though not designed to be a study, it seems to have been a fairly good method of
taking a reasonably rigorous example of just that.
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Personally I think cheesy stuff like this ruins the game and I really wish ladder was BO 3 because of it. I've seen 2 different master leaguers who proxy gate EVERY SINGLE GAME. Both times I got lucky and my overlord saw the proxy gates and I can honestly say that after I held off the rush, those were the two absolute worst players I've ever played against. We're talking 31 probes 20 minutes into the game bad. I highly doubt these guys could compete with platinum players yet they were both pretty high in master league...
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On April 12 2011 03:47 Cheerio wrote:
how do you stop 6 pool while FEing as protoss?
You don`t. You need a wall to hold a 6 pool as P, and there`s just no way to have a wall at your natural and a nexus before the lings show up, there`s just simply not enough minerals minerals to do that in time, even on the larger maps. Best case scenario is you cancel the nexus as soon as you scout the fast pool and wall in your main, but that`s assuming you scout in time.
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On April 12 2011 03:54 Neo.NEt wrote:
Personally I think cheesy stuff like this ruins the game and I really wish ladder was BO 3 because of it. I've seen 2 different master leaguers who proxy gate EVERY SINGLE GAME. Both times I got lucky and my overlord saw the proxy gates and I can honestly say that after I held off the rush, those were the two absolute worst players I've ever played against. We're talking 31 probes 20 minutes into the game bad. I highly doubt these guys could compete with platinum players yet they were both pretty high in master league...
If they're such bad players then you should take your free win and feel good about yourself. Cheese is a part of the game, and people need to learn to deal with it. A bo3 ladder would cause more problems than it would fix, anyway.
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Maybe on 2 player maps, but on 4 u need to take a chance. 1 Spot ur OL will find out the next u need to take a chance and hope. Else its gg toss will boost his gate and 1 zeal + prbes will pwn u
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6pool or even 7pool is great in a bo3 or more, but it's pretty useless in the ladder... You play to train yourself, what do you train by going 7pool ? Nothing, it's just like 4gate, retarded build that are great for mind gaming purpose, but useless in a bo1 game, unless you only play to get a nerd boner watching the victory screen.
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On April 12 2011 04:16 WhiteDog wrote:
6pool or even 7pool is great in a bo3 or more, but it's pretty useless in the ladder... You play to train yourself, what do you train by going 7pool ? Nothing, it's just like 4gate, retarded build that are great for mind gaming purpose, but useless in a bo1 game, unless you only play to get a nerd boner watching the victory screen.
You have to practice these builds somewhere =)
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On April 12 2011 04:13 vahgar.r24 wrote:
Maybe on 2 player maps, but on 4 u need to take a chance. 1 Spot ur OL will find out the next u need to take a chance and hope. Else its gg toss will boost his gate and 1 zeal + prbes will pwn u
i actually prefer to do 6/7 pool on 4 player maps, where it is less expected.
as for the timing of scouting, when you scout little after the pool starts, 1 overlord will be close to the adjacent base and the drone should arrive to the other base, at the same time, the lings will spawn and head towards the middle of the map. the timing works out quite nicely on 4 player maps.
with 2x DET + 4 more lings, 1zeal and probes will fall.
the point of 6 initial lings are to rid of mining time by attacking gateway or pylon and pick off workers when possible. when more lings arrive, there isn't much protoss can do.
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After reading the win rate you get vs Protoss masters, I feel really good about not losing to any 6 pools in Platinum league since the ladder reset. That being said, it's only happened to me on Typhon Peaks (of all maps...)
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6 pooling has been proven to be effective sometimes even in pro levels. If I'm not mistaken ST_JULY 6pooled anypro in the semis of the last GSL game 1
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On April 11 2011 07:15 rottenpotato wrote:
Let me start by saying that I don't condone in any way cheesing, especially to the extreme that I took it that week. I don't play like this.
That disclaimer is unnecessary man, don't beat yourself up. Cheese is a strategy. Either you abuse the advantage you may possibly have by making 6 lings before they can have a zealot, or they abuse the fact that you have little to no tech or economy to deal with a well timed gateway plus void ray timing attack. A strategy is a strategy.
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On April 12 2011 04:47 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:15 rottenpotato wrote:
Let me start by saying that I don't condone in any way cheesing, especially to the extreme that I took it that week. I don't play like this.
That disclaimer is unnecessary man, don't beat yourself up. Cheese is a strategy. Either you abuse the advantage you may possibly have by making 6 lings before they can have a zealot, or they abuse the fact that you have little to no tech or economy to deal with a well timed gateway plus void ray timing attack. A strategy is a strategy.
I have the same thought process as you do, but the community doesn't.
That being said, I really don't play like that and I really don't enjoy all-ins from anyone. I didn't have fun that week, although some of the chat made me smile
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If you're trying to talk about SC2 rushes the way people discussed BW rushes, you're wrong. Everyone at the top of ladder knows who CombatEX is and how he plays, and he still wins a crapload of games by playing that way. Same with PiQLiQ and a number of other players. The problem isn't that it's unbeatable, it's that it doesn't seem to be reliably beatable.
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On April 12 2011 04:54 adius wrote:
If you're trying to talk about SC2 rushes the way people discussed BW rushes, you're wrong. Everyone at the top of ladder knows who CombatEX is and how he plays, and he still wins a crapload of games by playing that way. Same with PiQLiQ and a number of other players. The problem isn't that it's unbeatable, it's that it doesn't seem to be reliably beatable.
It's because we (as players) don't have enough practice. If I were to just play a guy going 7-pool spine rush for two hours straight, I think I'd never lose to it again for a long time. But if I play one once a week, I forget all the lessons I learned from the last loss before I face the cheese again, so I lose. Problem is, most people can't/don't do that. However, I doubt that those all-ins would continue to work if they were practiced against, hence their rarity in high-level play.
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6/7 pool is really hard to beat as P. Since the zealot build time nerf, you either have to wall off completely, build a forge and cannons, or accept that the lings are getting into your base. It's not hard to survive the attack--the tricky part is that it's not as all-in as it seems. If you wall off with a forge and build cannons, Z gets a free expansion, and with the early queen, Z can catch up in workers pretty quickly. If you go for the zealot+probes defense, you just need to micro really well while you try to keep your build order together with constant probe production. If both players play perfectly, P wins, but it definitely tests your control and focus.
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On April 12 2011 04:06 VarpuliS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 03:54 Neo.NEt wrote:
Personally I think cheesy stuff like this ruins the game and I really wish ladder was BO 3 because of it. I've seen 2 different master leaguers who proxy gate EVERY SINGLE GAME. Both times I got lucky and my overlord saw the proxy gates and I can honestly say that after I held off the rush, those were the two absolute worst players I've ever played against. We're talking 31 probes 20 minutes into the game bad. I highly doubt these guys could compete with platinum players yet they were both pretty high in master league... If they're such bad players then you should take your free win and feel good about yourself. Cheese is a part of the game, and people need to learn to deal with it. A bo3 ladder would cause more problems than it would fix, anyway.
The point is that it's a joke that doing this strategy every single game can put you in the "top 2%" of players. Whether it is the fault of the game or the people playing, the fact is that if I get lucky and my overlord sees his proxy gates, I'll win easy. If it doesn't, I'm pretty much dead unless some miracle happens, which doesn't make for very good game play if you ask me.
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6pooling is good on 4 player maps because you can get lucky and be scouted last, making the game pretty hopeless for a protoss player. A good player can pull probes to defend but that just puts you at even while Z gets a free hatchery and fast queen.
On 2-3 player maps not so much, but the comical defenses your replay pack showcased proves otherwise .
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I did something similar last season to get my 100 random wins. Using all-in builds for whichever race I got (3 rax, 8 pool, cannon/zealot rush) and it worked quite well. I can't believe all the BM I got though. People on NA whine like hell. More than half the time I would get called "nooby" or a "hacker" (wtf). guess people are just mad and want you to be mad as well. It's funny cause a lot of the games would be determined by micro and the people who had some micro would usually defend the attacks (the others would have shitty micro and call me no skill at the end - funny).
I remember Battle.net back in sc1 days was full of griefers and BMs and I guess it has not changed. I would report people who would not quit messaging me or who would get racist with their comments. Hopefully that helps the situation.
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I always scout after pylon on 9 to make sure nothing cheesy happens. Also, I'm always wary of 6 pool. Usually on 4 player maps, you send a probe to the edge of your base at around 1 min to see if there's a scouting overlord, that way, you only need to check 2 locations instead of three.
If I do see a 6 pool coming, I just wall off with pylon and chrono a sentry and stalker and that usually holds it. Or you could try to get a zealot out and micro, up to you. 6 pool isn't impossible to hold though
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It's a good experiment to perform but you swear at people, taunt them, don't ever gg.. Your a BM piece of shit just trying to show off. Your micro and decision making are quite bad considering how little you have to focus on with this.
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As a toss, I don't really mind it when my opponent 6 pools me. Makes the game interesting and intense, albeit a little shorter. The trickiest part for me comes when I hold it off (assuming I manage to) and need to followup to grab my win. I'm often so excited that I'll run out with whatever zealots survived and try to whoop his ass. Often he'll have some spines or roaches out and I'll lose all my stuff, putting us on more even ground.
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I was strongly against this, until I realized how great micro practice it was early game. Individually microing probes back to the line to reset their shield as they're about to die while fighting Zerglings requires quick fingers, and I'm certain that I can put this speed to use elsewhere in the game.
As P, I tend to 9 scout against Zerg, which will catch the pool if they're the first position scouted. However, if not, it tends to be much harder, as they can break the wall just before the cannon finishes and starts killing them. I'm still debating if it's simply micro thats needed to beat it, or if I have to change my walling from Forge/Gateway/Zealot earlygame to Pylon/Gateway/Zealot (more vulnerable to banelings, but lets me skip the forge on defense).
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tell me why pool after 2nd OL would be bad again??? fast pool zergs are absolutely ruining the team ladder, and its pretty obvious that its imba vs toss if this kid, who as hostilepig says above, has nothing special when it comes to game sense or micro, can get pretty fukn high on the ladder doing straight fast pools against people MUCH better than him - no offense kid.
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On April 12 2011 04:16 WhiteDog wrote:
6pool or even 7pool is great in a bo3 or more, but it's pretty useless in the ladder... You play to train yourself, what do you train by going 7pool ? Nothing, it's just like 4gate, retarded build that are great for mind gaming purpose, but useless in a bo1 game, unless you only play to get a nerd boner watching the victory screen.
And getting better at a video game gives you what? a nerd boner? Getting better and winning are the branches of the same tree, it's all vanity.
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I see quite a bit of rage from protoss players in this thread about it being a build order loss if you scout last on a four player map, and therefore can't get a forge/cannon up in time. Can you really not just pull probes and delay til you have a zealot? I mean you'll have what, 14 probes out, which means he'll have to wait til he's got 8 or 10 lings out to engage, at which point you'll have a zealot, and it's a micro battle. It really seems like a coin flip even if you don't respond "correctly" with a forge. Am I wrong?
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Not the point. The key to this strategy is not to engage the Protoss's probes and zealot but to harass him to keep him off mining while your ling numbers grow. Protoss can't force you into a battle. They can only try to chase you around (bad move) or try to mine with a zealot protecting the probes, in which case you kill their pylon and gateway and it's GG.
It's basically an exploitation of the fact that Protoss has no early ranged units but still has to build a wall-off to prevent ling runbys early/mid-game. 6/7-pool hits before Protoss can get a normal wall off up.
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My thoughts: You're not really in the top 400 in NA, you were briefly there on only the ladder.
I do think there needs to be more 6 pool and other forms of early all-ins from zerg in PvZ, it should help the meta game, as currently you can go Nexus first without reprecussion in a lot of games.
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On April 12 2011 07:11 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote:
My thoughts: You're not really in the top 400 in NA, you were briefly there on only the ladder.
I do think there needs to be more 6 pool and other forms of early all-ins from zerg in PvZ, it should help the meta game, as currently you can go Nexus first without reprecussion in a lot of games.
Forge first holds this strategy as someone above pointed out. The reason Protoss can get away with nexus first is because they know Zerg won't typically 6-pool for fear of losing to a forge first. If more Zerg 6-pooled more Protoss would go forge first. But if more Protoss forged first, less Zerg would 6-pool. It's not a stable meta-game, which is the reason the cheese sometimes works even at pro levels.
EDIT: Forge first has its own weaknesses, especially on maps with wide open naturals, so it's not "the safe solution" to PvZ.
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jupp you can wall off with your probes until the zealot is there, and at best you can manage that you can attack with 2 probes while he can attack with onle 1 ling, and can always push a probe into the first ling to use a fresh probe for blocking. Its tricky and if you aren't good at micro its best to block of with a pylon and block off with some probes before you cancel it, so the zerg can't run by. (also the pylon thing is saver since the zerg can make a drone slide into your base in any case you always need probes)
But if you are lucky and scout the lings running to your base, you can cancel the cybercore and go for double gate. 2 gate zealot aggression won't be stopable for the zerg with only lings, roaches will be to late, so he needs spines. If you see the spines you can block of the ramp and straight tech to immortals and take the win. (omg yes no warp gate tech ! xD )
so 7 pool or 11 pool is pretty effectiv vs light tech + expansion builds. (who would have thought), i think the suprising effect of both is the same. with a 7 pool you will most likely see a drone sneaking arround early. But the newer maps have pretty neat xel naga towers all over the place, so you should always see the lings coming. (most players will ignore it early game so zergs will blindly run into your all seeing eye, 7 pool has a timing where it hits and you can scout the zerg after that timing)
I mean a toss can also go 7 pylon 8 gate, just like a terran. And an late pool will lose to it as well.
Toss is just atm so focused on the late game, that they forget the early game ^^ and most zergs, allow them that they can do. And well terrans can't do anything early game x3. tech structure like toss, but only get half of an zealot out of it hehe. and getting an effectiv bunker up is a miracle, though the bunker makes the marines evil. But the depot really kills terran cheese ^^. (well or the early other races scout ^^; )
PS: as toss vs zerg i still love my double gate opener its a nice pressure build, especially right now where every zerg has forgotton that roaches are t1. And if you follow it up with immortals or/and phoenix you often get the zerg pants down. (though the ragequit rate is pretty high ...)
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First off your neither at top %2 or top 400 or even close.
2nd off Flab/Whiplash aren't "famous". They are just on "good" teams. What does famous even mean anymore I guess I am famous cuz my name is in the liquipedia!
3rd off what is the point of this. Only Actionjesus is allowed praise for 6 pools because he has nice micro a lot, which I never saw a hint of in any single game here.
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My thoughts are someone please make a guide on how to counter all kind of cheese please.
6 pool on 4 players map for toss--I have yet seen any definitive answer to what is the proper counter.
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On April 12 2011 08:02 Quochobao wrote:
My thoughts are someone please make a guide on how to counter all kind of cheese please.
6 pool on 4 players map for toss--I have yet seen any definitive answer to what is the proper counter.
Hopefully Blizzard changes the spawning points and there won't really be an issue. If maps become the same as MLG, there will be no more close-by-ground matches.
Two scoutable spawns = time to react properly no matter what.
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Well done, I actually mean it.
It seems relatively obvious that it will fall apart at some point (as you discovered) but I am surprised it was so late.
As for the BM, don't worry, I just got told zerg were "%$@#ing op" after I did a hatch first, defended a 4 gate then proceeded to outmacro him ...
The sad truth is a lot of toss on ladder only know their 4 gate build order. Terran can be pretty all in but at least they seem to use a variety of builds and timing pushes on both 1 and 2 bases which is a little less boring.
As for 6 pool ZvZ a 14 pool can hold it and those are relatively common.
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On April 12 2011 08:32 Sixes wrote:
Well done, I actually mean it.
It seems relatively obvious that it will fall apart at some point (as you discovered) but I am surprised it was so late.
As for the BM, don't worry, I just got told zerg were "%$@#ing op" after I did a hatch first, defended a 4 gate then proceeded to outmacro him ...
The sad truth is a lot of toss on ladder only know their 4 gate build order. Terran can be pretty all in but at least they seem to use a variety of builds and timing pushes on both 1 and 2 bases which is a little less boring.
As for 6 pool ZvZ a 14 pool can hold it and those are relatively common.
QFT, when I go against toss I barely even want to waste a probe scouting, I just get my 4gate defense ready, and prepare for a micro battle lol
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On April 12 2011 07:37 FeyFey wrote:
Toss is just atm so focused on the late game, that they forget the early game ^^ and most zergs, allow them that they can do. And well terrans can't do anything early game x3. tech structure like toss, but only get half of an zealot out of it hehe. and getting an effectiv bunker up is a miracle, though the bunker makes the marines evil. But the depot really kills terran cheese ^^. (well or the early other races scout ^^; )
I do not know about your league/Server but at my league/server (Silver/Sea) Most protoss are just doing 4 gates, I play terran, so I can usually pretty safely just go 4 rax marauder for a free win against them. They do not often scout and if I see an observer in my base I just push out and usually take that free win.
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On April 12 2011 08:48 Carson wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 08:32 Sixes wrote:
Well done, I actually mean it.
It seems relatively obvious that it will fall apart at some point (as you discovered) but I am surprised it was so late.
As for the BM, don't worry, I just got told zerg were "%$@#ing op" after I did a hatch first, defended a 4 gate then proceeded to outmacro him ...
The sad truth is a lot of toss on ladder only know their 4 gate build order. Terran can be pretty all in but at least they seem to use a variety of builds and timing pushes on both 1 and 2 bases which is a little less boring.
As for 6 pool ZvZ a 14 pool can hold it and those are relatively common. QFT, when I go against toss I barely even want to waste a probe scouting, I just get my 4gate defense ready, and prepare for a micro battle lol
Going 4gate in PvP certainly doesn't mean you don't know other builds Especially on Taldarim!
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lol i started doing this today after work... already went from silver to plat!!
Also.. Do you know which one you play KiWiKaKi in?
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On April 12 2011 09:44 Cuh wrote:
lol i started doing this today after work... already went from silver to plat!!
Sorry world.
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...I'm totally jumping on my SEA account and 6-pooling like mad tonight, methinks.
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Australia8532 Posts
Haha i have never played zerg - i mained Terran and recently started playing Protoss; maybe ill try this out for a few games for giggles
It just sounds like you are having so much fun!
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what i dont understand is why probes have 40 total hp while the other workers have 50 - this may be an explanation why it works v protoss more often?
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On April 12 2011 15:30 darkevilxe wrote:
what i dont understand is why probes have 40 total hp while the other workers have 50 - this may be an explanation why it works v protoss more often?
Because their shields regenerate.
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I dont know why people QQ about the 6/7 pool when they 4 gate every game, or 2 rax every game. Cheese is a part of SC, you just have to learn to deal with it. If you get beaten by cheese, you got beat.
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On April 12 2011 15:46 Chinesewonder wrote:
I dont know why people QQ about the 6/7 pool when they 4 gate every game, or 2 rax every game. Cheese is a part of SC, you just have to learn to deal with it. If you get beaten by cheese, you got beat.
The "rage against the cheese" syndrome is more due to loosing to something that seems to take less efforts to execute that it takes to be able to defend against it or even just not defendable in a current situation and if you somehow manage to take little to no damage you just won.
example: 7pool Zvp on tal'darim it's not possible to block your ramp soon enough without using a pylon so you must choose to be either lings resistant or banelings resistants, if you gate later than 11 or 12 and not use your pylon in your wall you've lost. It's the same as being in a PvP without forge or robotics and having 2 dt in your main and 1in the army defense of the other P, you lost.
It is clear that knowing that even if you make 0 mistake or if you manage your buildings/units to a 100% efficiency rate you have no chance to win and feeling powerless make someone irritable and it's normal.
But I wouldn't call anytime you arrive at some point in a game where you can't respond to your ennemy units a cheese or if you got outmacroed after 15 minutes would be called a cheese too.
the only think I can name as cheesy would be 6-7 pool, 2proxy gates, 1-2 proxy rax marine or marauder and early rax bunker rush, anything but that could be considered "normal play" even if those strategies/game plan include going "allin" to deal lots of damage or lose at some point in the game.
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I just got promoted to gm league off a 6 pool vs p! This also improves win rates in other match ups because it allows you to focus on them rather than spending 90% of your energy trying to work out zvp.
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On April 12 2011 06:45 Cheerio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2011 04:16 WhiteDog wrote:
6pool or even 7pool is great in a bo3 or more, but it's pretty useless in the ladder... You play to train yourself, what do you train by going 7pool ? Nothing, it's just like 4gate, retarded build that are great for mind gaming purpose, but useless in a bo1 game, unless you only play to get a nerd boner watching the victory screen. And getting better at a video game gives you what? a nerd boner? Getting better and winning are the branches of the same tree, it's all vanity.
No, maybe you don't know it because you actually never got that far, but at some point, RTS games becomes really interesting and fun to play. But to reach that point, you have to master the basics: micro/macro/good enough APM/mechanics/game knowledge.
If you are good enough, you can play the game to its fullest, winning or loosing does not matter, but playing for a 20-30 min is wayyyyyyyyyyy different than winning with a cookie cutter strat that lead you into a 5min game.
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On April 12 2011 09:44 Cuh wrote:
lol i started doing this today after work... already went from silver to plat!!
Also.. Do you know which one you play KiWiKaKi in?
KiWiKaKi is Slag Pits (25).
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On April 12 2011 15:30 darkevilxe wrote:
what i dont understand is why probes have 40 total hp while the other workers have 50 - this may be an explanation why it works v protoss more often?
scvs have 45 hp and drones have 40 hp.
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Hey, sometimes I do this, sometimes I don't.
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SCV's have 45 hp because otherwise they lose in a straight up fight due to not regenerating hp... balancing thing. Nerfed from 60 because better ai made them too strong in all-ins, but it was buffed from 40 in like patch 1.0.8 which was like THE balance patch of sc1
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Was it this thread that made Idra 6pool @ Dreamhack inv?
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where are VODs for dreamhack?
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On April 18 2011 08:37 Jiddra wrote:Was it this thread that made Idra 6pool @ Dreamhack inv?
That'd be interesting
I really doubt it though. He seemed like after that first game he just wanted to throw it away and go home.
Idra is known for never cheesing/hating it.
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On April 22 2011 14:03 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 08:37 Jiddra wrote:Was it this thread that made Idra 6pool @ Dreamhack inv? That'd be interesting I really doubt it though. He seemed like after that first game he just wanted to throw it away and go home. Idra is known for never cheesing/hating it.
Yeah, IRCC iNcontroL said that he pretty much gave up after game 1, so he just 6pooled to give away the series.
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No clue how your win ratio vs P is so high. I find 6/7 pool fairly weak unless it's something like adjacent positions and I scout you last.
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On April 22 2011 14:17 Jonoman92 wrote:
No clue how your win ratio vs P is so high. I find 6/7 pool fairly weak unless it's something like adjacent positions and I scout you last.
that's probably the main reason is scouting a 6 pool last. that or a forge first build can sometimes lose if the player panics, or is too greedy (like 15 forge or something) other than that, 6 pool should be pretty easy to stop and the zergs so far behind it leads to really unsatisfying games.
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As protoss you just need to scout really good and put up a forge while blocking your ramp with buildings. I tried cybernetics and 2 gateways, and that failed miserably lol. 6 pool is such a bitch of a strat to beat as protoss.
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*Facepalm at 'rottenpotato's 7pool'
Why not call the Ice Fisher build?
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i'm a toss player. it's easy to stop once you scout it.
Not sure which map is best but i find i can scout the zerg almost always for these 6pool builds. it's annoying though if your unlucky with the scout.
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Someone should put together a rage video of all the people that cussed this guy out. If I had high enough MMR I would probably be on there raging. That is the nature of ladder, people do ridiculous stuff. Props to ActionJesuz.
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I'm so glad you lost the game when you offensive gged the protoss player :/ Offensive gging is such a dick move.
See, your win ratios are pretty high, but if you had good micro, it would be insane. I'm talking like, being able to micro the zealot in the wall to kill it without losing lings, having a drone block a terran's barracks to possibly cause him to place it differently (dunno if that works usually, i saw it done once), etc etc, it would be so much stronger.
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whiplash also lost to some newb(HEHAHHAA) doing a 7RR at MLG Dallas2010. twice. so no shock there.
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If you know how to deal with it, 6-Pool is never a problem. Only 1 thing you could win a game with 6-pool against me:
Small 4-player map, i scout your position the last. Then there is no way to stop it. But your winratio will be 33% on small maps and 0 % on big maps.
If i do a forge opening, it is so easy to hold, even if the ramp is 20k metres wide. Just build a pylon and a cannon in your mineral line. And do a bit of probe micro.
6-Pool against Protoss is either a Auto-Loss or a stupid coinflip.
(But it seems like quite a lot don't know how to deal with it. Sadly, because it's easy to stop)
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I’ ve been experimenting this for while, to consume bonus pool and farm some portraits.
If you wonder how to stop this , here the best defenses I found:
Protoss: (I have like 75% winrate against platinium people )
Pull all of your drone to protect pylons.
Put more than one pylon next to each other to minimize the zerglings surround.
Build gw/pylons near the nexus, so it’s easy to pull drones off.
Very early forge shut down this. Later forge make it like 50/50 winrate.
Zerg: (I have like 50% winrate)
It’s more micro intensive than versus Protoss.
Almost never win against people who put two spine crawlers in the mineral line.
If you go to snipe them with zerglings, you have easy surround with the drones.
Terran: (In this matchup I almost never win with 6 pool)
If I manage to block the second supply depot and go in there, it’s still pretty difficult.
As a terran you pull of all of you scv’s , and you surround the marine to protect him. You can add an additional bunker if the zerg let you do it.
I have downvoted:
xelnaga caverns People always expect rush on this.
scrap station Too long distance to rush, but It’s still ok. The problem is I have a lot of ZvZ.
Slag pits easy to scout on close spots.
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Zerg can 6 pool and Terran can do that 3 rax all-in with scv...
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As much as I hate cheesy builds, this build is rather efective in the current meta game due to alot of tosses going forge fast expands ect. It's risky though cause a good toss can just finish a wall in quickly, but i'm surprised you got that far with it.
That's really impressive!
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Seems like a giant waste of time. But whatever floats your boat I guess.
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maybe against a forge FE you can win with 6 pool, but its just too damn easy to wall off against it if you DO scout it
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7 pool is much better overall than 6 pool because you can always constantly send lings
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Imho cheese is just one of the few things that actually take away from the huge skill gap starcraft has right now, it's a cheap and easy way to win games you shouldn't win in the first place (e.g. people cheesing the shit out of july zerg in the open bracket at cbus). But the positive thing is that we see a lot less cheese across the board (let's forget about the silly na server) especially compared to the release time or gsl open season 1. Imho cheese will slowly disappear in high level play as most builds will be more or less cheese safe.
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On July 04 2011 21:56 Lorch wrote:
Imho cheese is just one of the few things that actually take away from the huge skill gap starcraft has right now, it's a cheap and easy way to win games you shouldn't win in the first place (e.g. people cheesing the shit out of july zerg in the open bracket at cbus). But the positive thing is that we see a lot less cheese across the board (let's forget about the silly na server) especially compared to the release time or gsl open season 1. Imho cheese will slowly disappear in high level play as most builds will be more or less cheese safe.
Cheese will never go away, look at bw right now, there has been no zerg in an osl to not 4 pool like, ever.
Not to speak of 1 base-allins. (proxy stargates, marine/scv allin etc) which are just insanely good in sc2. Anytime there is mindgames involved, there will be cheese.
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I think (and your games show) that 6pool actually is a very viable strategy. But I agree: if a top 400 Protoss loses to that, it's his fault for being sloppy or not scouting that/putting it into consideration. Of course that happens, but at the same time at these high levels i think they should be able to block it no problem - if they dont, they messed up and they should be pissed at themselves.
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On July 04 2011 21:09 LeCastor wrote:
I’ ve been experimenting this for while, to consume bonus pool and farm some portraits.
If you wonder how to stop this , here the best defenses I found:
Protoss: (I have like 75% winrate against platinium people )
Pull all of your drone to protect pylons.
Put more than one pylon next to each other to minimize the zerglings surround.
Build gw/pylons near the nexus, so it’s easy to pull drones off.
Very early forge shut down this. Later forge make it like 50/50 winrate.
Zerg: (I have like 50% winrate)
It’s more micro intensive than versus Protoss.
Almost never win against people who put two spine crawlers in the mineral line.
If you go to snipe them with zerglings, you have easy surround with the drones.
Terran: (In this matchup I almost never win with 6 pool)
If I manage to block the second supply depot and go in there, it’s still pretty difficult.
As a terran you pull of all of you scv’s , and you surround the marine to protect him. You can add an additional bunker if the zerg let you do it.
I have downvoted:
xelnaga caverns People always expect rush on this.
scrap station Too long distance to rush, but It’s still ok. The problem is I have a lot of ZvZ.
Slag pits easy to scout on close spots.
With my excellent skills of deduction I have gathered that you are a platinum zerg, which means please don't give advice to protoss players, because that is absolutely not the proper way to play off a 6pool as toss. Toss should be building its first few buildings at the ramp for a partial wall-off or mass ling auto-wins, if you scout a 6 pool you complete the wall off while you get zealots out behind, just keep building stuff back as buildings go down, once you have enough zealots, with proper micro they won't be able to kill you on this attack and then it's game over. (I was going to say that you want to complete the wall-off with/build a forge vs. 6 pool, but it's been long enough since I hit one that I'm actually not sure if this is advisable, this was mainly to say don't build your first buildings back/near the nexus, you need a wall at the ramp and/or expo relatively early)
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On July 04 2011 21:56 Lorch wrote:
Imho cheese is just one of the few things that actually take away from the huge skill gap starcraft has right now, it's a cheap and easy way to win games you shouldn't win in the first place (e.g. people cheesing the shit out of july zerg in the open bracket at cbus). But the positive thing is that we see a lot less cheese across the board (let's forget about the silly na server) especially compared to the release time or gsl open season 1. Imho cheese will slowly disappear in high level play as most builds will be more or less cheese safe.
A skilled player knows how to defend cheese and how to design cheese proof builds, cheese is needed to keep greedy builds in check, if they take cheese out of the game then you'll have a slippery slope of greedier and greedier builds
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lols Just tried 6/7 pooling only ones I beat were plat any good diamonds beat me with a single cannon and ZvZ is absolute crap as everyone 10 pools now.. DONT 6 PEWL.
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This is not that hard to counter as protoss.
You just gotta have a few key things going for you.
Need to pylon at ramp then gateway.
Usually the lings will come as your cyber core goes down. You just need to add a next pylon.
If you fully walled you are good. Besides 8 lings isn't that much too deal with if you can crono some lots.
I like to 9 scout zergs. Forge expand would probably hold this if played properly without too much greed.
Can't say i've been 6 pooled in a while.
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On July 04 2011 22:05 Hashmeister wrote:
I think (and your games show) that 6pool actually is a very viable strategy. But I agree: if a top 400 Protoss loses to that, it's his fault for being sloppy or not scouting that/putting it into consideration. Of course that happens, but at the same time at these high levels i think they should be able to block it no problem - if they dont, they messed up and they should be pissed at themselves.
To be honest though, 6pool is pretty strong... Moon attempted it vs HuK on G5 at DH Summer and got scouted first, while July did it to HasuObs same tourney, got scouted first, but somehow managed to take it. If you scout it last you are quite disadvantaged, you can't get a cannon up and obviously a full wall isn't as effective because the lings will just pick at your buildings (and you have to build the zealot on the inside or else it'll just die immediately.
I won two 6pool games yesterday (I'm 1550 Masters)... one was vs a Forge FE on Shakuras so I got quite far ahead (killed enough probes, forced him to build a pylon and wall off... I actually got my expo much faster than he did), other was against gate-forge (built forge upon seeing my opening), still managed to take out the gate and pylon and yeah held him back.
I don't know, 6pool feels a little strong vs Toss at the moment. Not sure how strong it is in ZvZ, a Zerg with good micro should be able to stop it... I prefer 9pool if I want to cheese, 9pool has a bit of a better follow-up... I went 14g/14p vs a 6pool once and he went for an offensive spine crawler, took out like 5 drones, but he was still behind 5 workers to like 8 so he had to gg... with a 9pool, comes a bit later, but he has an extra 4 or so workers.
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On July 04 2011 22:24 Navillus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 21:09 LeCastor wrote:
I’ ve been experimenting this for while, to consume bonus pool and farm some portraits.
If you wonder how to stop this , here the best defenses I found:
Protoss: (I have like 75% winrate against platinium people )
Pull all of your drone to protect pylons.
Put more than one pylon next to each other to minimize the zerglings surround.
Build gw/pylons near the nexus, so it’s easy to pull drones off.
Very early forge shut down this. Later forge make it like 50/50 winrate.
Zerg: (I have like 50% winrate)
It’s more micro intensive than versus Protoss.
Almost never win against people who put two spine crawlers in the mineral line.
If you go to snipe them with zerglings, you have easy surround with the drones.
Terran: (In this matchup I almost never win with 6 pool)
If I manage to block the second supply depot and go in there, it’s still pretty difficult.
As a terran you pull of all of you scv’s , and you surround the marine to protect him. You can add an additional bunker if the zerg let you do it.
I have downvoted:
xelnaga caverns People always expect rush on this.
scrap station Too long distance to rush, but It’s still ok. The problem is I have a lot of ZvZ.
Slag pits easy to scout on close spots.
With my excellent skills of deduction I have gathered that you are a platinum zerg, which means please don't give advice to protoss players, because that is absolutely not the proper way to play off a 6pool as toss. Toss should be building its first few buildings at the ramp for a partial wall-off or mass ling auto-wins, if you scout a 6 pool you complete the wall off while you get zealots out behind, just keep building stuff back as buildings go down, once you have enough zealots, with proper micro they won't be able to kill you on this attack and then it's game over. (I was going to say that you want to complete the wall-off with/build a forge vs. 6 pool, but it's been long enough since I hit one that I'm actually not sure if this is advisable, this was mainly to say don't build your first buildings back/near the nexus, you need a wall at the ramp and/or expo relatively early)
well, white-ra manages. its not as dumb as it sounds.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233795
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Canada13389 Posts
On July 05 2011 00:41 ribboo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 22:24 Navillus wrote:On July 04 2011 21:09 LeCastor wrote:
I’ ve been experimenting this for while, to consume bonus pool and farm some portraits.
If you wonder how to stop this , here the best defenses I found:
Protoss: (I have like 75% winrate against platinium people )
Pull all of your drone to protect pylons.
Put more than one pylon next to each other to minimize the zerglings surround.
Build gw/pylons near the nexus, so it’s easy to pull drones off.
Very early forge shut down this. Later forge make it like 50/50 winrate.
Zerg: (I have like 50% winrate)
It’s more micro intensive than versus Protoss.
Almost never win against people who put two spine crawlers in the mineral line.
If you go to snipe them with zerglings, you have easy surround with the drones.
Terran: (In this matchup I almost never win with 6 pool)
If I manage to block the second supply depot and go in there, it’s still pretty difficult.
As a terran you pull of all of you scv’s , and you surround the marine to protect him. You can add an additional bunker if the zerg let you do it.
I have downvoted:
xelnaga caverns People always expect rush on this.
scrap station Too long distance to rush, but It’s still ok. The problem is I have a lot of ZvZ.
Slag pits easy to scout on close spots.
With my excellent skills of deduction I have gathered that you are a platinum zerg, which means please don't give advice to protoss players, because that is absolutely not the proper way to play off a 6pool as toss. Toss should be building its first few buildings at the ramp for a partial wall-off or mass ling auto-wins, if you scout a 6 pool you complete the wall off while you get zealots out behind, just keep building stuff back as buildings go down, once you have enough zealots, with proper micro they won't be able to kill you on this attack and then it's game over. (I was going to say that you want to complete the wall-off with/build a forge vs. 6 pool, but it's been long enough since I hit one that I'm actually not sure if this is advisable, this was mainly to say don't build your first buildings back/near the nexus, you need a wall at the ramp and/or expo relatively early) well, white-ra manages. its not as dumb as it sounds. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233795
Yes White-ra manages it but it takes a lot of good control to make sure you mineral walk hurt probes away. Basically against a 6/7 pool white-ras build is great because you can keep making probes and not cut production to force more buildings, instead you micro and chrono zealots while walling in the probe line a bit better with extra minerals and continuing your tech.
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Whenever I get a stupid map and get pissed (slag pits) vs. protoss I always 6 pool.
To be honest, against protoss I think it has worked every single time...
Also, to refine your 6 pool strategy, keep an overlord just outside your ramp. Then when you see a scouting probe coming, send our a drone and pretend you want to expand. Most of the time he'll try to block it with his probe and not scout your main for awhile.
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no way youll make top 400 in na 6 pooling... end of story.
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On July 04 2011 22:02 simansh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 21:56 Lorch wrote:
Imho cheese is just one of the few things that actually take away from the huge skill gap starcraft has right now, it's a cheap and easy way to win games you shouldn't win in the first place (e.g. people cheesing the shit out of july zerg in the open bracket at cbus). But the positive thing is that we see a lot less cheese across the board (let's forget about the silly na server) especially compared to the release time or gsl open season 1. Imho cheese will slowly disappear in high level play as most builds will be more or less cheese safe. Cheese will never go away, look at bw right now, there has been no zerg in an osl to not 4 pool like, ever. Not to speak of 1 base-allins. (proxy stargates, marine/scv allin etc) which are just insanely good in sc2. Anytime there is mindgames involved, there will be cheese.
I think cheese is a legitimate strategy. At least when you are playing to win. As players get better at scouting and defending them they will happen less, but they will still happen.
There is no right and wrong way to play the game as long as they can win. Imba cheese is a different matter.
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On July 04 2011 23:48 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 22:05 Hashmeister wrote:
I think (and your games show) that 6pool actually is a very viable strategy. But I agree: if a top 400 Protoss loses to that, it's his fault for being sloppy or not scouting that/putting it into consideration. Of course that happens, but at the same time at these high levels i think they should be able to block it no problem - if they dont, they messed up and they should be pissed at themselves. To be honest though, 6pool is pretty strong... Moon attempted it vs HuK on G5 at DH Summer and got scouted first, while July did it to HasuObs same tourney, got scouted first, but somehow managed to take it. If you scout it last you are quite disadvantaged, you can't get a cannon up and obviously a full wall isn't as effective because the lings will just pick at your buildings (and you have to build the zealot on the inside or else it'll just die immediately. I won two 6pool games yesterday (I'm 1550 Masters)... one was vs a Forge FE on Shakuras so I got quite far ahead (killed enough probes, forced him to build a pylon and wall off... I actually got my expo much faster than he did), other was against gate-forge (built forge upon seeing my opening), still managed to take out the gate and pylon and yeah held him back. I don't know, 6pool feels a little strong vs Toss at the moment. Not sure how strong it is in ZvZ, a Zerg with good micro should be able to stop it... I prefer 9pool if I want to cheese, 9pool has a bit of a better follow-up... I went 14g/14p vs a 6pool once and he went for an offensive spine crawler, took out like 5 drones, but he was still behind 5 workers to like 8 so he had to gg... with a 9pool, comes a bit later, but he has an extra 4 or so workers.
Dreamhack was on an old version of Taldarim, so Huk could wall with 2 proper buildings and a pylon, on the current version it's a lot harder to hold it so easily.
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On July 04 2011 22:24 Navillus wrote:
With my excellent skills of deduction I have gathered that you are a platinum zerg, which means please don't give advice to protoss players, because that is absolutely not the proper way to play off a 6pool as toss. Toss should be building its first few buildings at the ramp for a partial wall-off or mass ling auto-wins, if you scout a 6 pool you complete the wall off while you get zealots out behind, just keep building stuff back as buildings go down, once you have enough zealots, with proper micro they won't be able to kill you on this attack and then it's game over. (I was going to say that you want to complete the wall-off with/build a forge vs. 6 pool, but it's been long enough since I hit one that I'm actually not sure if this is advisable, this was mainly to say don't build your first buildings back/near the nexus, you need a wall at the ramp and/or expo relatively early)
I was diamond and i dropped to platinium, since it's faster and easier wins.
It worked as well in diamond against protoss, against zerg it's was really harder.
As rottenpotato said before, if protoss scout 6 pool and wall of with forge , in this case you need to focus the gateway before the canon is finished. After that you have to surround the canon asap.
If the canon is in the mineral line, it's impossible to snipe.
If there is two gateways with a wall off, you have to manage to snipe the two gateway at the same time.
That shows that protoss players simply don't have the skill. Because really good protoss players can shutdown 6 pool with 13 gateway + core + really good probe micro. ( Sorry if you see any troll inside this)
@Doomsville: Awesome trick !
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On July 05 2011 02:50 LeCastor wrote:
That shows that protoss players simply don't have the skill. Because really good protoss players can shutdown 6 pool with 13 gateway + core + really good probe micro. ( Sorry if you see any troll inside this)
I'd like to see a Protoss hold a properly executed 6pool (as in, the Zerg doesn't just a-move his lings into the mineral line), having scouted it after putting down his Core. I'm sure you can produce a variety of high-level replays/vods, seeing as you couldn't possibly know from your own ladder experience.
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On July 05 2011 02:26 royal.cze wrote:
no way youll make top 400 in na 6 pooling... end of story.
Read the thread.
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 vs  준몽님 vs Michael ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png)
thought i'd share this replay. It's a master level protoss on KOR and he does pretty much everything you should do to stop a good 6pool (I say good as in, a 10-ling + 1 worker 6pool)
- No knowledge of 6pool until it's next to his ramp
- standard 1-gate core opener
All you have to do is buy time by delaying. The threat of probes will stop zerg from attacking your pylon long enough to get your zealot out. Don't lose probes, and don't attack with them until you have to. Just stay near. If zerg a-moves into you with lings, he's going to lose and he knows that (until his next 4 lings arrive), and if you can get your zealot out, you'll be in fine shape.
DO NOT overreact and make a forge/cannon. That thread from long ago recommending it was for Steppes of War, not these season 3 maps in the pool now. They all have longer rush distances, and can be stopped with minimal probe micro. While this is 100% win over 6pool, you run the risk of losing if you misread the pool timing and it turns out to have been a catz-style 7 pool. That opener will put you behind economically if you forge/cannon.
Hope this helps any protoss struggling against the occasional 6pool.
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http://drop.sc/23026
To follow up on micheals post, this is the proper way to hold off a 6 pool against a FFE.
You should be pylon scouting with a FFE. Also, have a probe in the natural area from 13 supply to when you scout him and his BO. You need to be able to respond asap. Important part is not to lose the cannon, mineral walking probes to protect the cannon is usually necessary. Zerg can't actually enter the mineral line until he has 10+ lings so you are fairly safe. Followup is up to you, but you actually aren't behind(check worker/army count). I probably could've had a slightly more effective 6 gate if I transfered a few more workers to nat, but it's hard to tell with 2 buildings in mineral line =/.
For the record I was going to nexus first, but then I saw the pool. I'm not quite sure if you can fully wall off in time, and if the guy blocks buildings with the drone, then it's going to be difficult at best to get a full walloff.
EDIT: you can fully wall off on shakuras in time in cross spots at least, assuming no drone goes to block the buildings. If a drone does go to block buildings you probably have to cannon mineral line.
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On July 05 2011 03:11 RANDOMCL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 02:26 royal.cze wrote:
no way youll make top 400 in na 6 pooling... end of story. Read the thread.
idd
besides... this is na
+ Show Spoiler +
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Protoss go for greedy play to much even at the highest level and just asumme/hope they wont get 6 pooled. which is very bad play by them so i am glad you did this as having a whole like that in your build and not knowing how to stop a 6 pool is very bad
keep keeping players honest
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I used to lose a lot of games to 6pool as protoss but i have to say that at one point when i was playing i saw my friend hold off a 6pool where he just continues to wall in when some front building dies or gets probes to block behind the destroyed building. I use this strategy all the time i even held off a 6pool on shattered temple scouting him last when his lings were already leaving his base. I also realized that you can easily FFE and still be safe against a 6pool even on maps like terminus which have a bigger choke to block.
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So suprised protoss is so beatable with the 6 pool. I guess it just has to do with the fact that they take a while to develop and get started, and before warpgate they are pretty much defenceless
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6pool is autolose vs my 15hatch :>
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cheese will always have a higher then expected winrate, simply because of the reason people want to play normal games on ladder. And a zerg is expected to 15 hatch, so people try to play the keep up in eco game which means delayed scouting. I prefer to force a pool first with some early aggression.
Probably its not good enough on the maps pro gamers play, but on ladder maps its really effectiv since i try to stop the fast 6 gas play from the zerg, have the most issues against this hehe.
Oh and not having enough probes at the wallin to stop a runby should be punished anyway .
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your Country52797 Posts
On August 01 2011 20:38 decaf wrote:
6pool is autolose vs my 15hatch :>
What? How? When this hits you'll be just starting your spawning pool and will have 13-14 drones.
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On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent.
But cheesing is fun! I play this game to have fun too not just work out my apm muscles.
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On August 01 2011 21:43 TehTemplar wrote:What? How? When this hits you'll be just starting your spawning pool and will have 13-14 drones.
I will have 16 to 17 drones cancelling the extractor and the hatchery and 1drone>1zergling.
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On August 02 2011 01:30 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 21:43 TehTemplar wrote:On August 01 2011 20:38 decaf wrote:
6pool is autolose vs my 15hatch :> What? How? When this hits you'll be just starting your spawning pool and will have 13-14 drones. I will have 16 to 17 drones cancelling the extractor and the hatchery and 1drone>1zergling.
What kind of drones do you got? :O
Here is the stats of mine:
Zergling:
Health: 35
Ground DPS: 7.2
Speed: 2.9531
Drone:
Health: 40
Ground DPS: 3.3
Speed: 2.8125
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On August 02 2011 01:38 Batch wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 01:30 decaf wrote:On August 01 2011 21:43 TehTemplar wrote:On August 01 2011 20:38 decaf wrote:
6pool is autolose vs my 15hatch :> What? How? When this hits you'll be just starting your spawning pool and will have 13-14 drones. I will have 16 to 17 drones cancelling the extractor and the hatchery and 1drone>1zergling. What kind of drones do you got? :O Here is the stats of mine: Zergling:Health: 35 Ground DPS: 7.2 Speed: 2.9531 Drone:Health: 40 Ground DPS: 3.3 Speed: 2.8125
You can hold it if you drone drill correctly.
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On August 02 2011 01:30 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On August 01 2011 21:43 TehTemplar wrote:On August 01 2011 20:38 decaf wrote:
6pool is autolose vs my 15hatch :> What? How? When this hits you'll be just starting your spawning pool and will have 13-14 drones. I will have 16 to 17 drones cancelling the extractor and the hatchery and 1drone>1zergling.
it's probably the rusher's lings PLUS drones.
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On August 02 2011 01:41 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 01:38 Batch wrote:On August 02 2011 01:30 decaf wrote:On August 01 2011 21:43 TehTemplar wrote:On August 01 2011 20:38 decaf wrote:
6pool is autolose vs my 15hatch :> What? How? When this hits you'll be just starting your spawning pool and will have 13-14 drones. I will have 16 to 17 drones cancelling the extractor and the hatchery and 1drone>1zergling. What kind of drones do you got? :O Here is the stats of mine: Zergling:Health: 35 Ground DPS: 7.2 Speed: 2.9531 Drone:Health: 40 Ground DPS: 3.3 Speed: 2.8125 You can hold it if you drone drill correctly.
Only if your opponent is brain dead.
It's certainly possible, but they REALLY have to mess up.
Not to mention that the 6 pooler can still win afterwards because they forced a hatch cancel on a hatch first, putting them ahead.
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On August 02 2011 02:27 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 01:41 K3Nyy wrote:On August 02 2011 01:38 Batch wrote:On August 02 2011 01:30 decaf wrote:On August 01 2011 21:43 TehTemplar wrote:On August 01 2011 20:38 decaf wrote:
6pool is autolose vs my 15hatch :> What? How? When this hits you'll be just starting your spawning pool and will have 13-14 drones. I will have 16 to 17 drones cancelling the extractor and the hatchery and 1drone>1zergling. What kind of drones do you got? :O Here is the stats of mine: Zergling:Health: 35 Ground DPS: 7.2 Speed: 2.9531 Drone:Health: 40 Ground DPS: 3.3 Speed: 2.8125 You can hold it if you drone drill correctly. Only if your opponent is brain dead. It's certainly possible, but they REALLY have to mess up. Not to mention that the 6 pooler can still win afterwards because they forced a hatch cancel on a hatch first, putting them ahead.
Not really, they just have to have considerably worse micro than you. Even if they play really well, if you play better, you'll win. That's my experience with 15 hatching, at least.
And I'd hardly call the 6-pooler ahead; he has 5 drones. You really should have more after the 6 pool dies. Forcing a hatch cancel is irrelevant; he won't be ahead on tech/one-base econ because he has 5 drones.
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On August 02 2011 02:27 Indrium wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 01:41 K3Nyy wrote:On August 02 2011 01:38 Batch wrote:On August 02 2011 01:30 decaf wrote:On August 01 2011 21:43 TehTemplar wrote:On August 01 2011 20:38 decaf wrote:
6pool is autolose vs my 15hatch :> What? How? When this hits you'll be just starting your spawning pool and will have 13-14 drones. I will have 16 to 17 drones cancelling the extractor and the hatchery and 1drone>1zergling. What kind of drones do you got? :O Here is the stats of mine: Zergling:Health: 35 Ground DPS: 7.2 Speed: 2.9531 Drone:Health: 40 Ground DPS: 3.3 Speed: 2.8125 You can hold it if you drone drill correctly. Only if your opponent is brain dead. It's certainly possible, but they REALLY have to mess up. Not to mention that the 6 pooler can still win afterwards because they forced a hatch cancel on a hatch first, putting them ahead.
Scout early and see the 6/7 pool then 14 pool instead of the planned 15 hatch. One good drone drill and he loses. Went against a random player and he tried to 7 pool me with 2 drones coming along to try and build spine crawlers and he still lost.
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On August 03 2011 03:43 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 02:27 Indrium wrote:On August 02 2011 01:41 K3Nyy wrote:On August 02 2011 01:38 Batch wrote:On August 02 2011 01:30 decaf wrote:On August 01 2011 21:43 TehTemplar wrote:On August 01 2011 20:38 decaf wrote:
6pool is autolose vs my 15hatch :> What? How? When this hits you'll be just starting your spawning pool and will have 13-14 drones. I will have 16 to 17 drones cancelling the extractor and the hatchery and 1drone>1zergling. What kind of drones do you got? :O Here is the stats of mine: Zergling:Health: 35 Ground DPS: 7.2 Speed: 2.9531 Drone:Health: 40 Ground DPS: 3.3 Speed: 2.8125 You can hold it if you drone drill correctly. Only if your opponent is brain dead. It's certainly possible, but they REALLY have to mess up. Not to mention that the 6 pooler can still win afterwards because they forced a hatch cancel on a hatch first, putting them ahead. Scout early and see the 6/7 pool then 14 pool instead of the planned 15 hatch. One good drone drill and he loses. Went against a random player and he tried to 7 pool me with 2 drones coming along to try and build spine crawlers and he still lost.
no good player will let you mineral walk surround him, and it's pretty easy to micro around it and continuously pick off drones without ever risking a surround.
Pretty much anything before a 12 pool is just about auto-win vs. 15 hatch, which is why, unless you're playing on a gigantic map or know your opponent is also going hatch-first, you should scout early enough to decide whether to 14pool or 15hatch.
If you want to blindly 15hatch for whatever practice reasons on ladder, be prepared to just leave the game if you see lings in the opening 3 minutes.
On August 01 2011 20:31 Styze wrote:
I used to lose a lot of games to 6pool as protoss but i have to say that at one point when i was playing i saw my friend hold off a 6pool where he just continues to wall in when some front building dies or gets probes to block behind the destroyed building. I use this strategy all the time i even held off a 6pool on shattered temple scouting him last when his lings were already leaving his base. I also realized that you can easily FFE and still be safe against a 6pool even on maps like terminus which have a bigger choke to block.
I do like to 6pool against protoss with some regularity, but I'd never 6pool on that map because it has a huge rush distance, and you can't know all the spawning positions by the time your lings are out (unlike all the new ladder maps). If you scout early enough to figure out the other spawning positions, you likely won't be able to reinforce past your initial 6 lings.
That said, both of your perceived responses to 6pool reinforce why a 6pool works so well against protoss. Both of them will end in losses against a good 6pooler. I say good because he'll double extractor trick to turn his 6 ling rush into a 14 ling rush by 4 minutes, and if you're "continuously walling" your zealot will be forced behind your gateway, and your wall will fall faster and faster, while becoming more and more expensive. for you.
I've never lost to a protoss reacting this way unless he did a gateway cancel into forge-gateway-cannon wall, which has only happened once.
The best response is also far easier to execute. You only need to pull some of your probes (8-10 at first) to delay and threaten engagement with. You should NOT wall, but instead allow the lings in. They can't openly engage your probes because they'll suffer too many losses just before the chrono'd zealot comes out, and they can't kill the pylon because you are dancing around it with your probes. After your initial zealot comes out, if he's still sending more lings, just chrono another zealot and make sure to keep it with the probes you use. Once you have a 2nd zealot you can just kill all his lings, drop your core, and proceed to be very far ahead. This takes far less effort than it sounds. If for any reason you have to pull all your probes to engage the zerglings, you're doing something very wrong and you've basically lost the game at this point.
If you forge FE, you need to accept that both your forge, pylon, and whatever you try to build to complete a wall (if you chose that decision) are GOING to die. Even if you completed this wall with (for example) double gateway, you can still win the game when this wall fails. Accept it, and as the forge completes (and it should be almost dead when it does) warp a cannon in your mineral line. As soon as you see a 6pool coming and you went forge FE, warp a pylon into your mineral line, then make a cannon as the forge completes. You'll lose everything out of range of that cannon, but you will also lose almost no probes and have triple your opponent's economy, while he is only ahead of you by pool tech (and no queen).
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On August 01 2011 19:35 The Iron Duke wrote:Protoss go for greedy play to much even at the highest level and just asumme/hope they wont get 6 pooled. which is very bad play by them so i am glad you did this as having a whole like that in your build and not knowing how to stop a 6 pool is very bad keep keeping players honest
There's nothing call greedy when the 6 pools hit you at the 12 or 13 supply. I mean the damn gates is not even finish up wtf do you expect Protoss to do? It's not like Terran can wall off completely while toss has to leave a choke. Stop your ignorant assumption please.
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Key to holding this off as Protoss without 10 gate is to place 1st pylon+gate near nexus, making it much easier to defend. You later wall off the ramp w/ core + 2nd gate
And in any matchup, if you get caught in a worker drill, you might lose. It's called choosing a good spot to engage, like the mineral line/somewhere workers won't get a good surround.
Also, how are you losing w/ FFE against a fast pool?
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On August 05 2011 08:27 EmilA wrote:http://sc2ranks.com/eu/1455748/sTaGaming731 masters EU EU rank 86 139-67 Only 6-7 pool variants. Against T he skillfully pull drones in a tempo that often blocks the walloff while not revealing all in.
Wondered when somebody was going to mention him. That's one of my real life friends, some WC3 players among you might know him as Habit. I think he literally spends most of his days getting home from work then 6pooling for a lot of hours. He used to play Minecraft a lot, but I don't think he does anymore, so yay 6pooling.
His pooling strategies are pretty hard to defend on some maps, but they depend a lot on scout luck, too.
It's pretty funny, too, because you'd think that all the good players would start to catch up on him, but most of them don't seem to (maybe simply forget the name?).
I still get pretty sad when he brags about it to me or in facebook, though, because I know him, and he could be a very very good player (using standard play) right now, if he had spent all that time practicing regularly instead of 6pooling. Now he probably can't win a BO3 to save his life, though.
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Yeah I got him on shattered temple TvZ, and he was damn close to beating me although we were close by air. Close ground would probably have been instant loss for me o.o
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6 pool will of course be a great strategy on ladder where it's always a BO1. Pros can't play like this because they play BO3+. If 6 pool is your only strategy I think by game 2 they will be ready for it :p. Pretty funny how successful you were though. In ZvZ 6 pool is so easy to hold off for me unless I don't see the drone building the spine. It should really only win you the game vs hatch first players which I don't think is very good zvz anyway.
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On August 05 2011 23:14 Uhh Negative wrote:
6 pool will of course be a great strategy on ladder where it's always a BO1. Pros can't play like this because they play BO3+. If 6 pool is your only strategy I think by game 2 they will be ready for it :p. Pretty funny how successful you were though. In ZvZ 6 pool is so easy to hold off for me unless I don't see the drone building the spine. It should really only win you the game vs hatch first players which I don't think is very good zvz anyway.
ActionJesuz would like a word with you
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need a bigger replay pack so we can learn this build
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Since proxy gateways don't work that well on ladder because of the 4-player maps... I'd say 4/5-Gate. It's only my opinion though.
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Cheese will always be a part of the game. Like most people, i prefer to win a nice macro game, however ever 10ish games i'll probably do some sort of cheese as a result of my impatience.
My problem with cheese is that it is based off blind counters, and that is why it is very unreliable. For example, i was playing as toss and i decided to open with an eco 2 gate, and the zerg tried to 6 pool me. The zerg got stomped based off a blind counter.
When running something standard like 2 base colossus, or marine-tank, the player has control over the game whether his comp is scouted or not. There is no worse feeling than having some weird cheese scouted, or walking into a hard counter.
I'm against cheese, because it is too luck-based, and therefore inconsistent.
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One night, baked, i decided to 6 pool some games before sleeping. I won like 7 or 8 straight, and mainly faced Protoss. It was amazing so i played all the night.
I got promotion like 3 hours after. Was like "wtf diamond". 2 months after, i was demoted to Platinum, where i'm stuck now, playing standard games, mainly pushing macro to improve as Zerg.
Yeah 6-pool works. Really well.
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I pratice against very hard AI sometimes for like mechanics, and i play protoss. one time i accidentaly left it on random and i got zerg as my race, which was the first time i played zerg. So i just 6pooled and beat very hard AI. LOL
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Next patch: Zerg needs now 2 overlords to build a spawning pool.
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On August 06 2011 00:57 Djiffit wrote:
Next patch: Zerg needs now 2 overlords to build a spawning pool.
...this is 4 months old...
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On August 06 2011 01:01 imareaver3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 00:57 Djiffit wrote:
Next patch: Zerg needs now 2 overlords to build a spawning pool. ...this is 4 months old...
.....it was clearly a joke.
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I guess I can safely say Cannon-rushing/proxy 2-gate will suffice then, thanks
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Cannon rushing isn´t as easy as it seems, at least in high level games, but if you pull it of successfully, you have a huge advantage.
It is also extremely funny! Makes games more interesting ^^
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On August 06 2011 01:51 Giku wrote:I guess I can safely say Cannon-rushing/proxy 2-gate will suffice then, thanks
i wouldnt proxy 2 gate a terran just a warning (unless its a 2p map and you can get inside the wall) i would opt for the cannon rush but you have to be kinda trixy to cannon rush a terran - be creative.
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thread is pretty necro imo
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Can someone please answer, what do people think is the most effective 6 or 7 pool BO for each mu? I notice there are a lot of ways to do it involving extractor trick/when you make your OL/ bringing all your drones or just some for spines zvz, etc.
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Reminds me of Actionjesuz or whatever his name is. A top EU master level player who 6 pools a lot. I think it might work but Im too scared to do it myself
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ive concluded 6pool is horrible against terran. however im working on a sick 1base baneling but that hits at like 5:30 before the terran can have much of anything at all and they normally all wall with 1depot only by this time. should beat any terran other than high masters who know how to scout it correctly
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Hello, i am Habit, no im not the wc3 legend, just a fanboy.
"stagaming" is one of my accounts. I have 2 other accounts placed very high in the masterleague last season both on NA and Europe. early when sc2 came out i already was a pretty good player, but i got frustrated since u had to play like 50 times better then ur protoss/terran oponnent to take a win down and zvz was basicly was cheese only (toss is still imbalanced zvz is still cheese).
Atm stagaming is simply a bet to get to gm-league with 6pool/7pooling only. the buildorders/scouttimings i use to play are worked out in the smallest detail not based on luck as many would consider. i twice ranked in the top 90 world with basicly just 6/7pooling(habit.678 back in march and stagaming pretty much now) and most of the ppl tend to call me newb, but after they try to 6pool theirselfs they will notice it is a pretty hard business, specially when u ladder late at night when u basicly only meet the same person over and over again. I pretty much only win because im outclassing my oponnent with the insane micro my bos need to be sucessful (sometimes i fail ).
my tactics arent that big of one way strats as u might think now, but the rules about getting to gm-league with 6/7p say, that if i meet people the 2nd time a day, im free to play a normal macro game, so some of you might know im not that bad of a player.
blizzard isnt giving an easy time on 6pooling by making the maps bigger and bigger, im running out of vetos and on some posis/maps its simply a defloss once ur oponnents start with 12 forge+def pylon in the minerals and double 11 rax. 9-12 pool is a defloss on pretty much every map.
One example. my scouttimings against toss are giving me the scout advantage on every position. so for example if its cross position, i dont send my drone all the way to close by ground just to see nothing is there. if my drone doesnt meet the scouting probe(9pylon=>scout) on the way to the close by ground posi i send it from half way there to crossed position.
The russian hackerboys are giving me a hard time, too. since they do like 6 scout instant on cross posi and complete the allin with 7 supply total.
Khaldor, a friend of mine once wanned to make a vod about me 6pooling, seems like he thought it is somekind of funny whenever i spammed him about whom i just 6pooled. :o
i didnt want it in the end because i dont want that kind attentionwhoring and it would give me an even harder time to win my bet since like alot of more people would give me a defloss bo.
if anyone is really interested in getting on top ladder lvl by 6pooling only, hes free to send me a pm, but always consider u cant win a tournament by just 6pooling since bo3s will give u a hard time unless its protoss ^_^
also if you guys will meet me on ladder feel free to call me actionjoseph.
Beeing a wc3 legend, same as beeing placed twice in the top 100 world doesnt make me special.
im a human beeing, just like you
if theres a need of replays against the best of the best losing to 6pool just let me know ^_^
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habit what are you BOs?? please share your secrets for fellow zerg cheesers. or replays are good too!
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took me alot of work dude :/ zergs cheese, i hate them, same as i hate terran and toss for beeing imbalanced
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How do you 6 pool a terran? His scv will scout you in time for him to thrown down emergency wall-off, then he just needs one marine out and a few scvs repairing.
And vs. Zerg do you also do spine crawler? When I'm going 14/14 I see a 6pool as a free win, unless I'm half-asleep and miss the spine crawler being built.
Protoss is really vulnerable to this tho, since the metagame right now is them being greedy as fuck.
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im offering lessons, ur free to pm me with specific questions
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On August 06 2011 03:30 kushm4sta wrote:
Can someone please answer, what do people think is the most effective 6 or 7 pool BO for each mu? I notice there are a lot of ways to do it involving extractor trick/when you make your OL/ bringing all your drones or just some for spines zvz, etc.
There are several ways to 6pool, and I can give you a few pointers/guidelines:
Against Protoss:
6pool, scout on ~1:40-1:44 on most maps to 2nd closest position (OL scouts the first closest). On a map like Shakuras, you send the Overlord to right/left position, and then send out your drone around 1:44 (or a little earlier, after the last mineral carry) to scout the other position.
The reason you can scout so late is because the pathing is the same for the lings up until the mid-point of the map. So, you don't need to know the correct location until this point in time, and ~1:44 gives you the most minerals.
Use this drone to harass until your lings get there, and usually it's a FFE to deal with. Don't freak out and just attack anyway. If he does anything other than let his forge die because he's pylon/cannon in his mineral line, you win.
Your build:
6pool
5 scout (~1:42-1:44 on most maps)
10 lings
Build extractor on larva pop for 11/10 lings
Build extractor on larva pop for 12/10 lings (then cancel both)
Overlord at 100
if your macro is perfect (and it should be because this isn't difficult to do), your latter ling timings will be 2:02, 2:17, 2:32 and 2:47. This means you need to build an extractor in preparation for 2:32 larva, and in preparation for 2:47 larva.
The last set of lings won't reach your opponent until almost 4:00 in the game, but if they have delayed by continuously walling with pylons/gates/etc, you may need these extra lings to seal the deal.
If he didn't FFE, go for his pylon, then his gateway, and keep your OL above his nexus (or poke with 1 ling here and there). Let him mine all he wants, because he can't do anything except try and build a forge which you can either kill or kill all his probes by the time he's able to make a cannon (since you'll have 14 lings).
IF he manages to get a zealot out, surround it immediately and you will be able to kill it with exactly 4 lings. When a ling takes 2 hits, pull it back then resume attacking, and shift+add the next focused ling, and repeat. All 4 lings will have 1 zealot-hit left after that z dies. If you have more lings free for a full surround, you'll only need to do this once.
Micro your lings even when you're fighting probes and don't let him get a concave. If he does, just back up and reengage. You have all the time in the world once that pylon goes down (and it will go down quickly.) Use your drone for earlier dps on the pylon until a probe forces it off or the lings need the space. Almost always this pylon will die before the probes have time to get there and harass.
Against Zerg:
Overlord scout is a personal preference here. If you scout close air positions on ST for example, he'll know where you are in time. I usually scout close ground positions first with my OL on a map like this. You DON'T want your OLs to cross paths because it will give him an added incentive to drone scout you (since he knows where you are). On some maps however, there is only one place to drone scout. You may consider leaving your OL on a nearby edge of your creep, or take a more roundabout path to your opponent if he's close air positions. On most maps you don't need to know where your opponent is until 2:15-2:25, well after your lings are out and running toward one of the non-eliminated bases.
6 pool
Drone to 7 (2 drones)
Scout around ~1:42-1:44 (depending on the map)
6 lings
Build extractor for 2:02 larva into 2lings
Build Extractor for 2:17 larva into 2lings (and then cancel both)
Make an overlord just as your lings get to his base (2:32)
DO NOT (and I can't stress this enough) send all your drones to your opponent. a 6pool with drones is far, far weaker than a standard 6pool because you can't reinforce.
Against a bad zerg, you'll beat him with either 6pool, but against a good zerg, you won't deliver a game-ending blow. Drop a spine with your scouting drone as soon as you can (I usually do it when my lings are at the ramp coming in) and then start dancing with the drones. You want to pressure him into engaging you, but you don't need to buy a lot of time. The spine will live unless 3+ drones attack it, or 1 ling continuously (minimum dps to prevent it from gaining hp). Don't place the spine in an open area for surround, but instead put it next to his pool/gas, or some other place that creates a partial wall-off for your spine.
Pick at the drones and be wary of him trying to mineral walk and don't let him get a surround. If he's grouping up on a patch, just back up a little bit and then go right back in. You can only pick at drones until your last 4 lings come in, and then you can openly engage him.
The reason you don't reinforce with 12, 14lings is because the game will be over (win or loss) by that point in time, so it's better to make the 2 drones early as an insurance policy.
Against Terran:
You're an idiot if you 6pool terran, plain and simple. If you REALLY must 6pool him though, I recommend doing a 2-drone rush once you have 100 minerals from your 6pool. If you're lucky, he'll fail in his micro and realize you're 6pooling too late.
Instead, I highly recommend july's 2-hatch no queen baneling bust, and it really only loses to fast reactor hellion openings. If he's planning a 1-rax expand, 1-1-1 (blue flame/banshee/etc) or even 2-rax expand, you'll get an easy win.
15 hatch
14 gas (immediately after hatch, earlier if you're late putting your hatch down, put 3 on and they stay)
13 pool
14,15 drone
15 OL
15 speed (you can start a queen if you're being scouted)
16,17 lings
bane nest as soon as you've killed scouting worker.
Make only lings to 28 supply then OL.
Morph your banes (you should be able to afford around 7)
Keep poking his ramp to see what's up. When you go in, send a ling to attack a rax or something out of the way of your banes to soak up the initial damage (send 2-3 if you feel sure that it won't block your banes) and then ALWAYS (and I can't stress this enough):
ALMOST ALWAYS go for a depot, not the rax. If you see a SD/Rax/SD wall, then you may already know that the 5 banes it takes to kill a depot can kill two depots if you target the rax. HOWEVER, any units currently inproduction will still produce, you run the risk of overkill on the rax, and the battle will be over so quickly that you'll lose or win before the supply block has a chance to affect him.
ONLY IF he has practically nothing defending should you target the rax to kill both depots, and that's a big ONLY IF.
This build should lose to aggressive gas before rax hellion openings, and you still need to react appropriately to 2-rax aggression if it's early enough. 2-rax can still hit before your lings are out, and if it does you will need to pull most of your drones and respond accordingly.
Other than that, it's a highly effective build for a game that only lasts an extra two minutes and gives you a much higher win chance.
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i do not agree on the post above me, hes wrong in basicly every mu. what he describes always need a big fail in the oponnents play
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Theres this variant where you send the drones too, i use it vs terran because i can occasionally block the walloff
or maybe send some drones but not all
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On August 06 2011 10:10 Bad_Habit wrote:
i do not agree on the post above me, hes wrong in basicly every mu. what he describes always need a big fail in the oponnents play
Saying "you're wrong about everything" is as helpful as saying nothing. Why not contribute your expertise? I know nothing about 6pooling, so I don't contribute, but learning more about prominent strategies is interesting to me, and thus, I read his post. However, you claim to have that knowledge. Why not add something instead of nothing?
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On August 06 2011 10:50 RANDOMCL wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 10:10 Bad_Habit wrote:
i do not agree on the post above me, hes wrong in basicly every mu. what he describes always need a big fail in the oponnents play Saying "you're wrong about everything" is as helpful as saying nothing. Why not contribute your expertise? I know nothing about 6pooling, so I don't contribute, but learning more about prominent strategies is interesting to me, and thus, I read his post. However, you claim to have that knowledge. Why not add something instead of nothing?
less qq more pew pew
User was warned for this post
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On August 06 2011 16:50 Bad_Habit wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2011 10:50 RANDOMCL wrote:On August 06 2011 10:10 Bad_Habit wrote:
i do not agree on the post above me, hes wrong in basicly every mu. what he describes always need a big fail in the oponnents play Saying "you're wrong about everything" is as helpful as saying nothing. Why not contribute your expertise? I know nothing about 6pooling, so I don't contribute, but learning more about prominent strategies is interesting to me, and thus, I read his post. However, you claim to have that knowledge. Why not add something instead of nothing? less qq more pew pew
This is called what gets you banned on Teamliquid.
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for those who are really intersted in what im doing.
livestream.com/scarab
playing on the NA server on a friends account for the moment
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I do still keep an eye on this thread and times have really changed. The current map pool has this harder to pull off than ever before.
While still viable, I'm almost certain the win rates would be a lot lower than months ago.
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You 6 pooled to gm? 
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On August 10 2011 08:07 HenryZ wrote:You 6 pooled to gm?
I can confirm that he did indeed 6/7 pool his way into GM in 6 hours.
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@ Habit:
I am interested in reps vs all 3 races. just curious what your exact timings are, 6pool is a nice thing to pull off in a bo5 or whatever..
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wow.. you shouldnt be able to do this...
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On August 10 2011 11:09 mumpfel wrote:
@ Habit:
I am interested in reps vs all 3 races. just curious what your exact timings are, 6pool is a nice thing to pull off in a bo5 or whatever..
He wont give replays, i asked for them when he was beating some of the top europeans, and he denied me
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On August 10 2011 11:42 L3g3nd_ wrote:wow.. you shouldnt be able to do this...
It's no different than 4gating or 3raxscv all in to grandmasters except that the games are even shorter
Ladder games mean nothing. In BO3 (actual tournaments), you will be screwed
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livestream.com/scarab for those who are still interested
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gj man great thread, 6-7pool is obviously the way to play starcraft! thanks for the tip
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Why would you waste your time doing this? What are you trying to prove?
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so i NEVER cheese (6/7 pool) on ladder, after reading this thread a few days ago i 6 pooled the first protoss I came across on shakuras. He left game and pmed me after about "being a fucking jew who 6 pools and cant do anything else" and that i should "rot and burn in hell"
i loled, but probably wont do it again.
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On August 11 2011 02:16 neo_sporin wrote:
so i NEVER cheese (6/7 pool) on ladder, after reading this thread a few days ago i 6 pooled the first protoss I came across on shakuras. He left game and pmed me after about "being a fucking jew who 6 pools and cant do anything else" and that i should "rot and burn in hell"
i loled, but probably wont do it again.
Punishes greedy protoss, I don't know why you wouldn't utilize such a build in your arsenal
Even idra, a known macro player, will mix it in. Of course, if it is the only strategy your mechanics can handle, then that's bad.
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i dont want to proof anything, ppl seemed to be interested since i got multible requests for replays.
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On August 10 2011 12:17 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:42 L3g3nd_ wrote:wow.. you shouldnt be able to do this... It's no different than 4gating or 3raxscv all in to grandmasters except that the games are even shorter Ladder games mean nothing. In BO3 (actual tournaments), you will be screwed
yeah cos people doing those totally take the game 100% seriously and want to become the best player in the world'Z , oh wait...no
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i would give away like 1 recent replay against every race. i have no idea how to upload it so if theres interest plz someone PM me who has icq/msn/skype, ill send you the replays and you can upload them for me
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On August 10 2011 12:17 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 11:42 L3g3nd_ wrote:wow.. you shouldnt be able to do this... It's no different than 4gating or 3raxscv all in to grandmasters except that the games are even shorter Ladder games mean nothing. In BO3 (actual tournaments), you will be screwed
No, it's not. If you play standard you will probably either: not scout the 6 pool in time, or you may to late (depending on the map).
4 Gate and 3 Rax scv are all predictable and scoutable. 6 pool is not.
The reason why it has such a high win % against Protoss typically is when the Toss attempts an expansion build of some sort it is practically impossible to stop (like on Shakuras or Taldarim).
IMO, 6 Pool is a stupid strategy and harder to stop for Protoss than the other two races.
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On August 11 2011 03:05 101toss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 11 2011 02:16 neo_sporin wrote:
so i NEVER cheese (6/7 pool) on ladder, after reading this thread a few days ago i 6 pooled the first protoss I came across on shakuras. He left game and pmed me after about "being a fucking jew who 6 pools and cant do anything else" and that i should "rot and burn in hell"
i loled, but probably wont do it again. Punishes greedy protoss, I don't know why you wouldn't utilize such a build in your arsenal Even idra, a known macro player, will mix it in. Of course, if it is the only strategy your mechanics can handle, then that's bad.
Idra only 6pools out of desperation and frustration .
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On August 13 2011 01:49 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:17 101toss wrote:On August 10 2011 11:42 L3g3nd_ wrote:wow.. you shouldnt be able to do this... It's no different than 4gating or 3raxscv all in to grandmasters except that the games are even shorter Ladder games mean nothing. In BO3 (actual tournaments), you will be screwed No, it's not. If you play standard you will probably either: not scout the 6 pool in time, or you may to late (depending on the map). 4 Gate and 3 Rax scv are all predictable and scoutable. 6 pool is not. The reason why it has such a high win % against Protoss typically is when the Toss attempts an expansion build of some sort it is practically impossible to stop (like on Shakuras or Taldarim). IMO, 6 Pool is a stupid strategy and harder to stop for Protoss than the other two races.
6 pool is an awful strategy and while harder to stop with protoss, if you are a good player you should be capable of holding it with any race without walling off. Im not saying I never lose to it, but I cant micro my probes perfectly all the time. I mass 6 pool a lot on the ladder when im bored and I can tell you that it is one of the least powerful cheeses.
Also, ladder is a competition, that's what ladder is. You try to get more points by winning. While ladder may be 'meaningless' to pros and used for practice, most people use ladder as their competition and so theres no point in saying 'These alliners arent gonna be the best player they can be' because they might be getting more points off allining and cheesing than they would by playing standard, in which case allining/cheesing all the time makes sense. Now, cheesing when youre practicing with a friend in a custom is stupid. But even cheesing in a custom game is a way to win the game, and thats what your intent is when entering any competition, to win.
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the lack of scout as zerg brought me to 6pooling. u CANT scout effiecient as a zerg. u ca send in 2 overlords, lose them and still u wont have an idea about whats going on.
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On August 13 2011 02:02 Bad_Habit wrote:
the lack of scout as zerg brought me to 6pooling. u CANT scout effiecient as a zerg. u ca send in 2 overlords, lose them and still u wont have an idea about whats going on.
get ovie speed >.<
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On August 13 2011 02:03 Welmu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 02:02 Bad_Habit wrote:
the lack of scout as zerg brought me to 6pooling. u CANT scout effiecient as a zerg. u ca send in 2 overlords, lose them and still u wont have an idea about whats going on. get ovie speed >.<
stop trolling plz
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On August 13 2011 02:02 Bad_Habit wrote:
the lack of scout as zerg brought me to 6pooling. u CANT scout effiecient as a zerg. u ca send in 2 overlords, lose them and still u wont have an idea about whats going on.
That is absolutely retarded, and I play z myself. Zerg lacks means of scouting in the early/early-mid game, but using it as an excuse to 6pool? Rofl.
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Vatican City State733 Posts
On August 13 2011 01:49 SniXSniPe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 10 2011 12:17 101toss wrote:On August 10 2011 11:42 L3g3nd_ wrote:wow.. you shouldnt be able to do this... It's no different than 4gating or 3raxscv all in to grandmasters except that the games are even shorter Ladder games mean nothing. In BO3 (actual tournaments), you will be screwed No, it's not. If you play standard you will probably either: not scout the 6 pool in time, or you may to late (depending on the map). 4 Gate and 3 Rax scv are all predictable and scoutable. 6 pool is not. The reason why it has such a high win % against Protoss typically is when the Toss attempts an expansion build of some sort it is practically impossible to stop (like on Shakuras or Taldarim). IMO, 6 Pool is a stupid strategy and harder to stop for Protoss than the other two races.
6/7 pools are builds designed to punish Protoss for doing greedy builds. Forge fes, particularly nexus first, are "eco cheese"---you are taking a risk to get a superior mid-late game. You can't honestly expect Zergs to just let you do that
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On September 11 2011 06:06 GGTesomas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 01:49 SniXSniPe wrote:On August 10 2011 12:17 101toss wrote:On August 10 2011 11:42 L3g3nd_ wrote:wow.. you shouldnt be able to do this... It's no different than 4gating or 3raxscv all in to grandmasters except that the games are even shorter Ladder games mean nothing. In BO3 (actual tournaments), you will be screwed No, it's not. If you play standard you will probably either: not scout the 6 pool in time, or you may to late (depending on the map). 4 Gate and 3 Rax scv are all predictable and scoutable. 6 pool is not. The reason why it has such a high win % against Protoss typically is when the Toss attempts an expansion build of some sort it is practically impossible to stop (like on Shakuras or Taldarim). IMO, 6 Pool is a stupid strategy and harder to stop for Protoss than the other two races. 6/7 pools are builds designed to punish Protoss for doing greedy builds. Forge fes, particularly nexus first, are "eco cheese"---you are taking a risk to get a superior mid-late game. You can't honestly expect Zergs to just let you do that
That logic is so dumb. FFE isn't eco-cheese in any sense. It isn't taking any risk besides to 7 pools, and even then it'll win if the zerg scouts the toss last/toss pylon scouts the zerg first. You are just crossing your fingers and hoping for a lucky coin flip, not punishing anything.
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Naniwa did a total bossmode 6pool defense in NASL. Look it up
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EPT
