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On April 11 2011 08:42 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better. The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill.
All the more reason Blizzard should remove close spawns on 4 player maps entirely, to be honest.
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On April 11 2011 08:45 MonsieurGrimm wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:42 Acritter wrote:On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better. The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill. All the more reason Blizzard should remove close spawns on 4 player maps entirely, to be honest.
While I agree entirely with the removal with close position spawning, it won't help. The games that were the hardest to win were the ones that were close by ground. You get scouted first.
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On April 11 2011 08:36 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:31 rottenpotato wrote:
You'll have 12-14 workers when the 6 pool hits, depending on the map. He'll have 6 lings. If he splits his lings, then he's going to lose, simply because you will seriously outnumber whichever group is closest to your workers.
The idea is that you keep them off mining while your army size gets bigger and bigger. This still doesn't make sense, lol. The idea to defend a 6 pool is to stall until your zealot comes out. In ZvZ, it's the first batch of lings. In TvZ, it's the first marine into the bunker. In PvZ you just have to stall for about 20 seconds and you're done; most P players lose in that time frame because they don't know how to worker drill/stall for time or they forget to protect their pylon. Most T players will win because it takes very little micro to get the marine into the bunker, and it's almost impossible for the 6 pool to win after the bunker is up. Most Z players lose for the same reasons P players lose, minus the pylon, obviously. As I play random, I get a lot of 6/8 pools because people don't like playing against randoms. I also get cannon rushed and proxy gated a lot, so whenever I see cheese it's almost like an auto-win now. EDIT: The hardest to hold is the 6 pool with drones. I've held that as P plenty of times, as I only go FFE/nexus first against Z. I think with a gate first it'd probably be pretty damn hard to hold, though.
One Zealot doesn't end the Zergling harass.
On April 11 2011 08:36 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:32 ondik wrote:
that 85-95 vs P seems kinda unreal for me.. how much do you win against P who forge expands? I can't believe you would win a single game for example at shakuras if P goes for forge first and then adds gate+gate to complete wallin when he scouts your 7 pool. If he forge fast expands first he basically loses. It's impossible to block off the entire area in time. 6 lings on a photon cannon is a dead photon cannon.
BW Protoss know how to defeat pool cheese with a forge opening.
You do not expand. You do not save your forge. You do not cannon your natural.
You build a pylon in your main, near your nexus, and protect it with your probes. You then build a cannon in your mineral line, and protect it with your probes. (Your forge will not be dead yet.)
Once that is done, you are at a massive economic advantage and have a safe mineral line; the primary drawback is that you have no tech. So you start building buildings and play the rest of the game at an advantage.
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On April 11 2011 08:42 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better. The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill.
Yes but open the replay pack. Of the people who A) Scouted him if Protoss or Zerg and B)knew how to respond to a 6/7 pool: how many lost?
I'd have to think less than 1% of all Protoss players who TRULY know how to fend off a 6 pool, scout it, and still lose. It'd be from some weird lag thing and disconnects most likely.
Also: you can't bar Terran, your upper boundary outlier unless you also bar Protoss. Leaving you with ZvZ which isn't a 6 pool and any build well executed will produce a tad over 50% results, so there isn't a problem there.
When Terran first started doing 2 Rax All-Ins, it had over a 80% win rate against Zergs. Zergs simply didn't know how to handle it. The problem is most people don't play 6 pools in ladder that much, so they're not prepared because they haven't been conditioned to that early of a cheese since they were in bronze.
Also: you aren't necessarily seeing a short game after you see a 6 pool. I wish I could find the replays, but trust me: if you kill the zealot, and you kill like 6 probes, he's only 2 workers up, and it can easily become a macro game from there.
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On April 11 2011 08:47 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:45 MonsieurGrimm wrote:On April 11 2011 08:42 Acritter wrote:On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better. The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill. All the more reason Blizzard should remove close spawns on 4 player maps entirely, to be honest. While I agree entirely with the removal with close position spawning, it won't help. The games that were the hardest to win were the ones that were close by ground. You get scouted first.
Well, my thinking is that you send probe to scout far and you check to see if the overlord is coming in from the close by air, redirecting your probe if needed - since you don't need to check close by ground, the first place you scout will be elsewhere and even though your probe arrives a little later, so will the zerglings.
Anyhow close positions suck no matter what.
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Yeah, as a toss it's not easy holding off early pools. Like, if you scout zerg last, your dead. On maps like meta and LT you have to hope they're idiots and show you their overlord.
I actually had to sit down with a friend and have him 6/7 pool me for a ton of games. I eventually got it down, but it's still not easy if you scout last. It's even funnier if you have a pylon on the low-ground LOL
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I don't have a problem with cheese every once in a while. Also, I can't blame a player for taking advantage of a problem with the game. I just wouldn't have any respect for someone who cheesed their way up to a very high ladder rank (except for the OP, because he said he doesn't normally play like that)
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I suspect the build has that sort of winrate at the high levels right now precisely because it is so rare. When I was in high platinum, I got 6 pooled quite frequently, so I adjusted my build to stop it (earlier scouting, etc.). I think the fact that me and others do that at that point means that if you just 6 pool every game, you can't get higher than that. What that means, though, is that people who 6 pool every game hit a ceiling and at the high masters level people very rarely 6 pool. As a result, people don't expect it and find it better to optimize their play for facing other builds. The way it works with these things is that there's an equilibrium point. If 6 pools happen in less than 1% of games, it's not worth it to carefully prepare for them so they do very well. If they happen in 50% of games, everyone is very careful about them and they never win. Somewhere in between is the equilibrium where they win roughly as frequently as everything else that's being done. The fact that this has such a high win rate shows that it's occurring at below-equilibrium frequency right now (possibly because people who do it frequently aren't able to get into the player pool of high masters). It doesn't mean that the bulid will always have the sort of win rate it did in this sample. If the equilibrium turns out to have people doing it in a huge portion of games, then that's a problem that needs a balance patch to fix, but my guess is that the equilibrium actually isn't that high.
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On April 11 2011 08:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:
IMO I'd rather face a 6 pool as Protoss than a 4 warpgate as Terran because it is basically the same as a proxy 4 gate in BW without the disadvantages.
Except with nerfed dragoons with free range upgrade and buffed marines with free range upgrade and nerfed SCVs and buffed bunkers. And Marauders and Sentries. And bunker salvage allowing more profligate use of bunkers. And autorepair. And small depots that go up and down with less hit points than the old depot. And without the imposed requirement by other parts of the game that Terran tech up to Factory units. And Orbital Command instead of Comsat.
So, actually not 'basically the same' at all.
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As a toss, I love beating a 6pool.
One thing I hate is if it's you scout them last, so in large 4 player maps, 6pool alone gives you a 33.333 % chance to win no matter what.
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on 2 player maps your 6pool win percentage vs terran can be much better if you use 2-3 drones to block his buildings until the lings arrive.
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Stupid way to win. I paid 60 bucks for Starcraft so I could have fun playing it, not to do cheesy shit to try and win. Most of us will never do this professionally, even fewer will do so successfully, so winning shouldn't be the end all. Seems like such a waste of a game that took 12 years to develop to 6 pool.
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On April 11 2011 08:48 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 08:31 rottenpotato wrote:
You'll have 12-14 workers when the 6 pool hits, depending on the map. He'll have 6 lings. If he splits his lings, then he's going to lose, simply because you will seriously outnumber whichever group is closest to your workers.
The idea is that you keep them off mining while your army size gets bigger and bigger. This still doesn't make sense, lol. The idea to defend a 6 pool is to stall until your zealot comes out. In ZvZ, it's the first batch of lings. In TvZ, it's the first marine into the bunker. In PvZ you just have to stall for about 20 seconds and you're done; most P players lose in that time frame because they don't know how to worker drill/stall for time or they forget to protect their pylon. Most T players will win because it takes very little micro to get the marine into the bunker, and it's almost impossible for the 6 pool to win after the bunker is up. Most Z players lose for the same reasons P players lose, minus the pylon, obviously. As I play random, I get a lot of 6/8 pools because people don't like playing against randoms. I also get cannon rushed and proxy gated a lot, so whenever I see cheese it's almost like an auto-win now. EDIT: The hardest to hold is the 6 pool with drones. I've held that as P plenty of times, as I only go FFE/nexus first against Z. I think with a gate first it'd probably be pretty damn hard to hold, though. One Zealot doesn't end the Zergling harass.
Not immediately, but it does within a few seconds.
The whole goal is to get that zealot out. If you kill just 2 zerglings before the zealot comes out, you win. If you don't, you just use the zealot and 2-3 probes to hold off whatever lings remain, while you chrono the second zealot/get a forge up.
On April 11 2011 08:48 Severedevil wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:36 rottenpotato wrote:On April 11 2011 08:32 ondik wrote:
that 85-95 vs P seems kinda unreal for me.. how much do you win against P who forge expands? I can't believe you would win a single game for example at shakuras if P goes for forge first and then adds gate+gate to complete wallin when he scouts your 7 pool. If he forge fast expands first he basically loses. It's impossible to block off the entire area in time. 6 lings on a photon cannon is a dead photon cannon. BW Protoss know how to defeat pool cheese with a forge opening. You do not expand. You do not save your forge. You do not cannon your natural. You build a pylon in your main, near your nexus, and protect it with your probes. You then build a cannon in your mineral line, and protect it with your probes. (Your forge will not be dead yet.) Once that is done, you are at a massive economic advantage and have a safe mineral line; the primary drawback is that you have no tech. So you start building buildings and play the rest of the game at an advantage.
This is all true.
You can do the same thing with a gateway first build EXCEPT against the 6 pool variation with drones. Against that you have to catch the rush as it's coming to you and wall off completely plus get a forge. If you went forge first you're in good shape, but otherwise, it's trouble.
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On April 11 2011 08:36 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:32 ondik wrote:
that 85-95 vs P seems kinda unreal for me.. how much do you win against P who forge expands? I can't believe you would win a single game for example at shakuras if P goes for forge first and then adds gate+gate to complete wallin when he scouts your 7 pool. If he forge fast expands first he basically loses. It's impossible to block off the entire area in time. 6 lings on a photon cannon is a dead photon cannon.
What? I checked randomly two of your shakuras replays, you 7 pooled in both and got 6 lings to his natural at +- 3:00, if I open with forge, I complete my wall at natural at +- 2:40, with first cannon warping in at +- 2:50.
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Not immediately, but it does within a few seconds.
The whole goal is to get that zealot out. If you kill just 2 zerglings before the zealot comes out, you win. If you don't, you just use the zealot and 2-3 probes to hold off whatever lings remain, while you chrono the second zealot/get a forge up.
Not exactly. You still have to be very, very careful with that zealot. If you manage to get a second one out with a healthy first, you're in pretty good shape. With only one zealot out, it's still very hard.
From the 6pooling point of view, I felt it necessary to keep zealot numbers down to a maximum of 1. I took the first surround I could get - even if only partial.
While I'm sure there were a few games I came out on top with 2 zealots out, it makes it infinitely harder.
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add worker mineral line micro like in BW (6pool fixed)
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+1 For making Whiplash Rage!!
Jk, but in all honesty I am not sure it will work against the top of the top. Your games are interesting.. I like how diff races // players respond.
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On April 11 2011 09:04 ondik wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:36 rottenpotato wrote:On April 11 2011 08:32 ondik wrote:
that 85-95 vs P seems kinda unreal for me.. how much do you win against P who forge expands? I can't believe you would win a single game for example at shakuras if P goes for forge first and then adds gate+gate to complete wallin when he scouts your 7 pool. If he forge fast expands first he basically loses. It's impossible to block off the entire area in time. 6 lings on a photon cannon is a dead photon cannon. What? I checked randomly two of your shakuras replays, you 7 pooled in both and got 6 lings to his natural at +- 3:00, if I open with forge, I complete my wall at natural at +- 2:40, with first cannon warping in at +- 2:50.
That sounds about right. Sorry it's been a while since I've done it. There should be 4-5 games like that in the replay pack...somewhere.
Just because the wall-off is there, doesn't mean it's effective.
On Shakuras, to form a wall-off with a forge, you need to have more than the normal '4 zergling' hit area. The forge goes down pretty damned quick.
If you don't have the probes sitting waiting to protect the one cannon, it's easy to break.
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On April 11 2011 08:40 sinani206 wrote:
I'm combining this with saying "corrupter brood lord ultralisk" at the beginning of every game. I haven't lost one yet!
You are a horrible person; I'd do something more believable like "Roach Queen Broodlord". All late game units are going to make them suspicious.
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On April 11 2011 08:48 Jeffbelittle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:42 Acritter wrote:On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better. The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill. Yes but open the replay pack. Of the people who A) Scouted him if Protoss or Zerg and B)knew how to respond to a 6/7 pool: how many lost? I'd have to think less than 1% of all Protoss players who TRULY know how to fend off a 6 pool, scout it, and still lose. It'd be from some weird lag thing and disconnects most likely. Also: you can't bar Terran, your upper boundary outlier unless you also bar Protoss. Leaving you with ZvZ which isn't a 6 pool and any build well executed will produce a tad over 50% results, so there isn't a problem there. When Terran first started doing 2 Rax All-Ins, it had over a 80% win rate against Zergs. Zergs simply didn't know how to handle it. The problem is most people don't play 6 pools in ladder that much, so they're not prepared because they haven't been conditioned to that early of a cheese since they were in bronze. Also: you aren't necessarily seeing a short game after you see a 6 pool. I wish I could find the replays, but trust me: if you kill the zealot, and you kill like 6 probes, he's only 2 workers up, and it can easily become a macro game from there.
The problem with THAT is that if you overprepare for a 6pool, you'll tend to lose badly to economic openings. The game turns into rock/paper/scissors. That's stupid. This is especially true for ZvZ, where a middling pool will lose to a 14pool and a 14pool will lose to a 6pool.
I can definitely bar Terran! If a strategy is overpowered against one race, then it's overpowered. If it's overpowered against two races, it's doubly so. There's no iron law saying you have to use one strategy against every race. You can just do something else against Terran, maybe 7 Roach Rush if early aggression is your style.
2rax is not entirely comparable, as it is far easier to transition out of into standard play. Also, the 2rax defense progresses the game.
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EPT
