EPT6-7 Pool to Top 400 NA - Your Thoughts? - Page 5
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ManyCookies
1164 Posts
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
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proxY_
United States1561 Posts
On April 11 2011 07:55 TurtlePerson2 wrote: Terrans wall off better against zerg with a hard wall in. If the terran scouts, then it's up by the time zerg gets there. Terrans are very weak against baneling bust. Jinro lost to it twice in the TSL. Personally, I don't know why zergs don't bling bust more often. The busts that Jinro lost to in tsl weren't cheesy one base baneling busts, Morrow saw that Jinro went cc first or rax cc (forget which) and decided to go all-in baneling on two base with like 35 drones. It's a reactive build that takes into account that your opponent really can't have siege tech done in time (because of the gas delay) and likely won't have enough bunkers in time to stop it. I never start a zvt saying that I'm going to go all-in baneling on two base but if my drone sees no gas and I sack that overlord and see they're going rax cc rax rax and delaying gas then it's a no brainer to do that, you'll win 95% of the time. This style first got popular with kyrix in gsl season 2 and I believe Nestea won finals games doing it. The build that was popular in the beta was (I believe) like a 14 gas, 14 pool, fast ling speed straight into banelings on one base. It's really not a very good build as early pressure builds like 2 rax or reactored hellion (probably the two most popular tvz openings) do well against it. 6 pool is bad against terran because if terran has even a little warning they can depot wall off (90% of terrans wall themselves initially against z anyway) and then they can indefinitely repair the wall while marines trickle out of the rax and shoot the lings from behind the safety of the wall. | ||
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BadWolf0
United States300 Posts
In my experience of rage 6pooling (going on a losing streak or being frustrated and not wanting to play a macro game), is that it is even more frustrating when you 6pool and it gets held. I'd rather lose a macro game and feel like that loss was a real loss, rather than sit there and wonder if I could've beat that guy in a macro game. Basically what I'm saying is the satisfaction from a successful 6pool is not equivalent to the frustration of an unsuccessful one. this. That's why I stopped doing these and the wzp build. When they don't work and you watch the replay sometimes your like woooow why didn't I just play him. | ||
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FeUerFlieGe
United States1193 Posts
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rottenpotato
Canada130 Posts
On April 11 2011 08:09 AndAgain wrote: So what's the best way to stop this as protoss? I know you can put a forge and completely wall off+ cannon, but that sometimes backfires as it allows the zerg to get even or close in economy. 1. You need to scout at 9 no matter what. 2. On 4 player maps like Shattered Temple/Metalopolis, you need to position your probe at the right timing to see his overlord fly toward your nexus. He's not going to let you know if he's close by air if he can help it. If you don't know he's close-by-air, he's going to be the last place you scout (because of Battle.Net ladder maps not removing close-by-ground positions). This knowledge he has vs the knowledge you have already gives him a 95% chance to win. 3. You basically need a forge. You need a forge and to chrono your first zealot hard. Not only that, but you need to have your zealot come out on the inside of your base and protect that cannon. If the cannon finishes and you have a zealot and a few probes, he can't break it(If this happens, I left. There were a few instances when photons did finish and I kept streaming/killing them and came out ahead, but they were few and far between) Kiwikaki was the only Protoss able to hold it off without a forge. Granted I found him last and he scouted it early, he bested me. We ended up base-racing with him killing my base with zealots and kiting my ...~16 lings with 1 stalker. Nothing I could do about that one  | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote: (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro. User was warned for this post | ||
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Tatari
United States1179 Posts
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rottenpotato
Canada130 Posts
On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote: WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro. It's really not. It's very, very hard to hold off, if not impossible, if all you have is workers. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote: WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Lemme just call you out on that. You're completely incorrect. Allow me to show you why with the 14/14 build order. 9 Overlord 14 Gas 14 Pool Oh wait, what was that? It seems you built an Overlord. Whoops! Looks like that puts you at a count of two Overlords before the gas and pool went down. Only way you're doing 14/14 with one Overlord is if you build Extractors at your main and nat and then cancel them all. Not even sure if that will work, you'll have to have a larva spawn before you cancel the Extractors. Now, I see the mistake you made. You were thinking "second Ovie BUILT," not "second Ovie TOTAL." Please be courteous when you're trying to correct someone's error, otherwise you end up looking like a jerk if you're right and stupid and uninformed if you're wrong. | ||
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SONE
Canada839 Posts
On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote: WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro. ??? He means the second overlord, not the second built overlord. (meaning you can't do a 6-10 pool). I'm not saying I'm for or against it, but I think you read it completely wrong. | ||
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tarath
United States377 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On April 11 2011 08:16 rottenpotato wrote: It's really not. It's very, very hard to hold off, if not impossible, if all you have is workers. Rofl. You are misinformed. Worker drills make 6 pools a joke. While it was an 8 pool, Tosyad vs Fruitdealer demonstrates this. Fruitdealer had only 14 drones, cause he went hatch first. I don't believe he lost a single drone. I've done it plenty of times myself. You can do one of two things: you can go for a surround using a worker drill, or you can just run in circles until your zealot/cannon completes. If the opponent attacks the probes, you run. If he attacks the gateway/cannon/pylon, you poke and run as soon as he changes targets. EDIT: On April 11 2011 08:21 SONE wrote: ??? He means the second overlord, not the second built overlord. (meaning you can't do a 6-10 pool). I'm not saying I'm for or against it, but I think you read it completely wrong. My mistake. I see now. I still think it's an incredibly dumb proposition, however. | ||
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rottenpotato
Canada130 Posts
On April 11 2011 08:22 tarath wrote: Action Jesus proved that the six pool can win games vs pros at dream hack, even when scouted 2nd. I'm not sure why people like to insist that it is trivial to hold off and only a noob would lose to it, maybe they are used to seeing it done by players with poor micro? This could be it. It's definitely not an a-move strat. I've had 6pools last up to 9-10 minutes, believe it or not. | ||
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rottenpotato
Canada130 Posts
On April 11 2011 08:23 wherebugsgo wrote: Rofl. You are misinformed. Worker drills make 6 pools a joke. While it was an 8 pool, Tosyad vs Fruitdealer demonstrates this. Fruitdealer had only 14 drones, cause he went hatch first. I don't believe he lost a single drone. I've done it plenty of times myself. You can do one of two things: you can go for a surround using a worker drill, or you can just run in circles until your zealot/cannon completes. If the opponent attacks the probes, you run. If he attacks the gateway/cannon/pylon, you poke and run as soon as he changes targets. I hate to start shit, but I'm the one who posted the replay pack. I think I know what happens in 6-7 pools  | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote: WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro. Lol you know you start with an overlord right - so when you build one you have a total of two overlords. Meaning you completely misinterpreted Whiplash's statement edit: so ninja'd lol :p | ||
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tarath
United States377 Posts
On April 11 2011 08:23 wherebugsgo wrote: Rofl. You are misinformed. Worker drills make 6 pools a joke. While it was an 8 pool, Tosyad vs Fruitdealer demonstrates this. Fruitdealer had only 14 drones, cause he went hatch first. I don't believe he lost a single drone. I've done it plenty of times myself. You can do one of two things: you can go for a surround using a worker drill, or you can just run in circles until your zealot/cannon completes. If the opponent attacks the probes, you run. If he attacks the gateway/cannon/pylon, you poke and run as soon as he changes targets. That sounds like a surefire solution if he magically has all his lings in 1 control group so that he can't attack your probes and your pylon at the same time. | ||
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Jeffbelittle
United States468 Posts
On April 11 2011 08:20 Acritter wrote: Lemme just call you out on that. You're completely incorrect. Allow me to show you why with the 14/14 build order. 9 Overlord 14 Gas 14 Pool Oh wait, what was that? It seems you built an Overlord. Whoops! Looks like that puts you at a count of two Overlords before the gas and pool went down. Only way you're doing 14/14 with one Overlord is if you build Extractors at your main and nat and then cancel them all. Not even sure if that will work, you'll have to have a larva spawn before you cancel the Extractors. Now, I see the mistake you made. You were thinking "second Ovie BUILT," not "second Ovie TOTAL." Please be courteous when you're trying to correct someone's error, otherwise you end up looking like a jerk if you're right and stupid and uninformed if you're wrong. Okay, you're right. But let's not seriously validate the claim that 6/7/8/or 9 pools should be just eliminated from the game. It's a cheese. It's a cheese just like rushed proxy stargate play is a cheese just like proxy gates are cheese just like cannon rushing is cheese. Cheese promotes good scouting, because without scouting you lose, and if you scout and respond correctly, you'll win 100% percent of the time. There is 0 deviation between a master level 6 pool and a grand master level 6 pool. Learn to scout it, and you'll get yourself some free points. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
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KallWest
Germany24 Posts
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers. Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. | ||
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