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Australia8532 Posts
On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are.
"Ruined every elses ladder experience" - are you serious!?!?! That is close to the most RIDICULOUS thing i have ever read on these forums! If you lose to a 6pool the only person responsible for ruining your ladder experience.. IS YOU! You sound really offended over someone 6pooling which to me sounds a little strange.
If you're good enough to be top400 you are good enough to learn how to defend a 6pool; the only person responsible for your laddy experience is YOU
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On April 11 2011 07:32 khchosEN wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:28 dacthehork wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. yeah it's a really stupid attitude people have against cheesers. Part of standard play is actually mixing in the extremes. Even Jaedong 4 pools, july won an OSL mainly cheesing, etc. MC with 150,000 in winnings still 4 gates / stargates cheeses a pretty good chunk of his games. Adopting an idra attitude towards cheesing is ridiculous. There are so many non masters that explain "I could just cheese to masters". You actually should cheese to masters and at least learn to execute / implement a decent build order. You still will get a lot of practice refining for instance a 4 warpgate or w.e. build it is. Better practice than floating 500 minerals and massing carriers on one base. Even IdrA 6 pools sometimes
Only when a MU/map is broken in his opinion (like 6 pooling Jinro on JB), or he doesn't value his opponent too much. At least that's the impression that I get.
Say whatever you want towards cheese, but it is one of the reasons people quit this game, loses viewers and whatnot, I'm 90% certain people prefer to see a Dimaga vs MVP game (DC one) or QXC vs Genius Xel'Naga Caverns TSL type of games than a 2 bunker rush into a marine tank all in at 10 minutes SeleCT vs IdrA MLG kind of games, or cannon rushes ZvP.
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On April 11 2011 07:35 Durn wrote:
To those saying it's unwinnable on 4 player maps, I then ask you why don't pros do it more? It is winnable, it just requires a huge deviation and knowledge. Pulling workers until military units are out and running then rather than turning them around has been the best defense I've seen.
its impossible if you scout it last, the other 2 times you get an opportunity to scout its defendable. that means the zerg is like taking a 1/3 chance win. would you take that chance in a tournament?
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And now more zergs will 6pool on ladder...
Imagine how many people are lurking this thread and then imagine how many of those people will tell thier friends about this. T.T
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started watching some of these and some of the rage that ensues is awesome. thanks for the laughs haha
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On April 11 2011 07:35 ThaZenith wrote:
It works that well on maps with more than 2 spawn positions? I'm kind of surprised, seems having to guess where they are would make it suck more.
And wouldn't this get owned by a 9/10 pool pretty hard?
It's hard to say. Sometimes, sometimes not. It depends how the Zerg reacts.
My whole thought process on the 7-pool was not to finish the spine crawler unless it was left basically untouched the entire time.
I slowly whittled the Zerg away while he had a "countdown" in his mind. The counter started again every time the spine crawler was put down. If he started swarming the crawler, I'd pick at his drones/lings, cancel the crawler and drop it 20 feet away again - counter restarted.
The point to this is that the longer he has to worry about that countdown timer, the less he mines minerals since he has to pull drones off. It's definitely a tough position to be in.
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On April 11 2011 07:37 Mephiztopheles1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:32 khchosEN wrote:On April 11 2011 07:28 dacthehork wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. yeah it's a really stupid attitude people have against cheesers. Part of standard play is actually mixing in the extremes. Even Jaedong 4 pools, july won an OSL mainly cheesing, etc. MC with 150,000 in winnings still 4 gates / stargates cheeses a pretty good chunk of his games. Adopting an idra attitude towards cheesing is ridiculous. There are so many non masters that explain "I could just cheese to masters". You actually should cheese to masters and at least learn to execute / implement a decent build order. You still will get a lot of practice refining for instance a 4 warpgate or w.e. build it is. Better practice than floating 500 minerals and massing carriers on one base. Even IdrA 6 pools sometimes Only when a MU/map is broken in his opinion (like 6 pooling Jinro on JB), or he doesn't value his opponent too much. At least that's the impression that I get. Say whatever you want towards cheese, but it is one of the reasons people quit this game, loses viewers and whatnot, I'm 90% certain people prefer to see a Dimaga vs MVP game (DC one) or QXC vs Genius Xel'Naga Caverns TSL type of games than a 2 bunker rush into a marine tank all in at 10 minutes SeleCT vs IdrA MLG kind of games, or cannon rushes ZvP.
That wasn't because he was frustrated with the MU. That was a planned attack on Jinro's style on that specific map. IdrA and Artosis had been studying Jinro's replays and noticed he scouts late and doesn't wall in on JB. It was a calculated attack attempting to take advantage of Jinro's greedy style on that map. But I do agree with the rest of your post.
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You overlord scout one base and drone scout the other, only leaving one base unknown.
Also, I'm saying it's almost unwinnable, because even if you have a zealot, you'll STILL be running around chasing zerglings. A smart zerg will try to snipe the pylon supporting gateway, snipe probes and keep running around while droning at home.
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On April 11 2011 07:36 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are. "Ruined every elses ladder experience" - are you serious!?!?! That is close to the most RIDICULOUS thing i have ever read on these forums! If you lose to a 6pool the only person responsible for ruining your ladder experience.. IS YOU! You sound really offended over someone 6pooling which to me sounds a little strange. If you're good enough to be top400 you are good enough to learn how to defend a 6pool; the only person responsible for your laddy experience is YOU
While it's true that top400 should know how to stop a 6 pool...your opponents are more than capable of ruining your ladder experience. YOU only have control over which builds you choose to do in response to what your opponent does. If for some reason, in some hypothetical world, all of the people you went up against in ladder cheesed, you could certainly stop it but would it be fun? I'd pretty much consider my ladder experience ruined.
That said, I'm not surprised at the OP. It's no new development that cheese works at the highest levels of play against opponents that are unprepared for it. Combine that with a ladder that tends to match you up against different people every time until the very top levels of play and you have a recipe for cheesy success.
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On April 11 2011 07:25 Zerokaiser wrote:
If a Protoss player is in the top 400 and hasn't learned how to safeguard themselves from 6pool, they deserve to lose.
Lets be realistic here.... i do believe that july zerg beat anypro with a 7 pool in GSL round of 4.. Saying that a 6 pool is easily held is kind of silly, first off you need to 9 scout and if you are on a 4 player map you will have alot of trouble, then it all comes down to micro.. So blank sayings about how people at x skill level are not acceptable, i mean there are still threads about builds that people learned how to beat 4 months ago, why because they are hard to scout and it is situational. 6-7 pooling can also kind of be transitioned out of (kind of lol). But really it is a nice way to get some build order wins if someone say 13 scouts on a 4player map or trys to do something risky, i.e forge fast expand.
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On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are.
i think he's just putting himself out there as an example. results speak for themselves.
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I might start doing this on the ladder to see how good it is in platinum leauge.
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On April 11 2011 07:37 FrankWalls wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:35 Durn wrote:
To those saying it's unwinnable on 4 player maps, I then ask you why don't pros do it more? It is winnable, it just requires a huge deviation and knowledge. Pulling workers until military units are out and running then rather than turning them around has been the best defense I've seen. its impossible if you scout it last, the other 2 times you get an opportunity to scout its defendable. that means the zerg is like taking a 1/3 chance win. would you take that chance in a tournament?
A lot of players send out a second probe scout if the first base they scout doesn't contain the zerg, watching the GSL Tastosis explains it as 'having to know what the zerg is doing', which, if the numbers given in this thread are accurate, makes sense. The truth is, even as a top 400 player, the onus to defend a 6 pool is more punitive than the relative economy loss (granted you set your opponent back via the need to respond) of a 6 pool.
The cheese options in ZvP are heavily Z favored, especially since there is a lot of time for a Z to scout a 4+ gate and respond given the size of most of the maps nowadays and I would agree something should be done about it, I've met my share of players on the ladder with 1-2k+ games (high diamond low masters) and it appears all they do is quick pool ling/drone rush. Should a rating in that range be ably acquired with a 3 minute game?
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On April 11 2011 07:31 CanucksJC wrote:
Umm no... if you scout 6 pool second last or last on 4 player maps, you lose. I'm pretty sure it's unwinnable if you scout last on these huge maps now lol. You scout their base when lings are already in :s
Last time I got 6pooled was by a random player on Tal darim. I scouted him last position. Lings were in my base before I even knew he was zerg. I was still able to win.
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In my experience of rage 6pooling (going on a losing streak or being frustrated and not wanting to play a macro game), is that it is even more frustrating when you 6pool and it gets held. I'd rather lose a macro game and feel like that loss was a real loss, rather than sit there and wonder if I could've beat that guy in a macro game. Basically what I'm saying is the satisfaction from a successful 6pool is not equivalent to the frustration of an unsuccessful one.
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Those are some interesting games you played. Have any Terran players ever bitbybit.prime(marine+SCV all ins) their way up the NA ladder?
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How often did you lose a ZvZ if the zerg went hatch first? (including if he scouted your lings and canceled/just didnt put it down)
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On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. Lol ya I tend to get pretty angry when I lose to cheese. I am much more experienced vs 6 pool now though, so I challenge you to a 6 pool rematch whenever! My rage is never a personal attack of hatred, just me venting my frustration. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS)
Ahaha exactly my thoughts. Might as well remove supply depot requirement before rax as well, and revert the build time of forge again, that way you have to be on the edge vs all races and not just zerg! :D It's so stupid, Dustin Browder can be a good manager, but sometimes... oh boy.
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On April 11 2011 07:15 rottenpotato wrote:
My MMR at the end sat at at around 3800-3900.
that is not your MMR
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I have been telling zergs that 6 pool is something that they should really do, but they think that I'm just trolling. It can be an easy insta win and even if they scout it you can still win.
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EPT
