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On April 11 2011 08:26 teamsolid wrote:
I have a question, which build is actually more effective in ZvP, 6 pool or 7 pool? I was always curious. I know 7 pool comes ~7 seconds later, but you have enough cash to start 3 sets of lings as opposed to 2. And considering the large map sizes, does that 7 seconds really matter?
I found the 6 was better overall against P. You don't need that 7th drone at all. The timing works out so that you have exactly 150 minerals when your spawning pool finishes. You usually find yourself absolutely drenched in minerals after 2 minutes.
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On April 11 2011 08:24 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:23 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 08:16 rottenpotato wrote:On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Let's remove proxy gates, 4 gates, and cannon rushes, while we're at it, with some dumb arbitrary rule like "no pylons may be built within a certain range of the opponent's main" The best part is that a 6 pool is really easily held with some basic worker micro. It's really not. It's very, very hard to hold off, if not impossible, if all you have is workers. Rofl. You are misinformed. Worker drills make 6 pools a joke. While it was an 8 pool, Tosyad vs Fruitdealer demonstrates this. Fruitdealer had only 14 drones, cause he went hatch first. I don't believe he lost a single drone. I've done it plenty of times myself. You can do one of two things: you can go for a surround using a worker drill, or you can just run in circles until your zealot/cannon completes. If the opponent attacks the probes, you run. If he attacks the gateway/cannon/pylon, you poke and run as soon as he changes targets. I hate to start shit, but I'm the one who posted the replay pack. I think I know what happens in 6-7 pools 
Just because people lost to you doing a 6 pool, doesn't mean it's actually hard to hold off. Most people who play SC2 don't know how to stop cheese (which is why there's always so much rage about 4 gate, proxy gate, 6 pool, 8 pool, proxy rax, cannon rush, etc. etc.)
That sounds like a surefire solution if he magically has all his lings in 1 control group so that he can't attack your probes and your pylon at the same time.
?? I don't understand this.
You'll have 12-14 workers when the 6 pool hits, depending on the map. He'll have 6 lings. If he splits his lings, then he's going to lose, simply because you will seriously outnumber whichever group is closest to your workers.
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lol how to stop this 6pool with terran?
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You'll have 12-14 workers when the 6 pool hits, depending on the map. He'll have 6 lings. If he splits his lings, then he's going to lose, simply because you will seriously outnumber whichever group is closest to your workers.
The idea is that you keep them off mining while your army size gets bigger and bigger.
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On April 11 2011 08:30 ShynZ wrote:
lol how to stop this 6pool with terran?
Wall in?
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On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent.
It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting.
Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important.
Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate.
Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout as frequently as we do, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better.
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that 85-95 vs P seems kinda unreal for me.. how much do you win against P who forge expands? I can't believe you would win a single game for example at shakuras if P goes for forge first and then adds gate+gate to complete wallin when he scouts your 7 pool.
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Doesn't a 6 pool auto lose when it's cross position on a large map?
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And considering the large map sizes, does that 7 seconds really matter?
A huge deal when it comes to 6/7 pools. 7 seconds of extra cannon fire is almost 6 extra shots (3 zerglings/drones dead), or the difference between a 25/25 pylon and a 75/75 pylon.
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On April 11 2011 08:28 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:26 teamsolid wrote:
I have a question, which build is actually more effective in ZvP, 6 pool or 7 pool? I was always curious. I know 7 pool comes ~7 seconds later, but you have enough cash to start 3 sets of lings as opposed to 2. And considering the large map sizes, does that 7 seconds really matter? I found the 6 was better overall against P. You don't need that 7th drone at all. The timing works out so that you have exactly 150 minerals when your spawning pool finishes. You usually find yourself absolutely drenched in minerals after 2 minutes.
That's not true at least in the 2-3 reps I've watched from the pack.
You ended up with ~100 minerals as the pool finished each time since you made an overlord, so could only start 2 sets of lings which finish at ~2:10. The next ling starts 15 secs later end finishes at ~2:25.
Meanwhile with a 7 pool, you actually end up with exactly 150 minerals as the pool finishes and all 6 hatch at ~2:18 from my own test.
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On April 11 2011 08:31 rottenpotato wrote:Show nested quote +
You'll have 12-14 workers when the 6 pool hits, depending on the map. He'll have 6 lings. If he splits his lings, then he's going to lose, simply because you will seriously outnumber whichever group is closest to your workers.
The idea is that you keep them off mining while your army size gets bigger and bigger.
This still doesn't make sense, lol.
The idea to defend a 6 pool is to stall until your zealot comes out. In ZvZ, it's the first batch of lings. In TvZ, it's the first marine into the bunker. In PvZ you just have to stall for about 20 seconds and you're done; most P players lose in that time frame because they don't know how to worker drill/stall for time or they forget to protect their pylon. Most T players will win because it takes very little micro to get the marine into the bunker, and it's almost impossible for the 6 pool to win after the bunker is up. Most Z players lose for the same reasons P players lose, minus the pylon, obviously.
As I play random, I get a lot of 6/8 pools because people don't like playing against randoms. I also get cannon rushed and proxy gated a lot, so whenever I see cheese it's almost like an auto-win now.
EDIT: The hardest to hold is the 6 pool with drones. I've held that as P plenty of times, as I only go FFE/nexus first against Z. I think with a gate first it'd probably be pretty damn hard to hold, though.
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Cheeses and all-ins are just really good in SC2 in general, and, as a rule, a lot more difficult to defend than to execute. Dustin Browder and his team wanted to make the early game really exciting for you, so appreciate their effort.
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What I find so frustrating when playing PvZ is that the build orders to block fast pools put you way behind vs a zerg that macro's. Once the 1st lings are out you can't scout and know when the zerg starts droning. I've had zergs early pool and make just 2 lings to kill my probe then go into macro mode. It takes so much time to get out Zealots to stop the amount of lings that can come out. Pretty scary that you got that high up with it though
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On April 11 2011 08:32 ondik wrote:
that 85-95 vs P seems kinda unreal for me.. how much do you win against P who forge expands? I can't believe you would win a single game for example at shakuras if P goes for forge first and then adds gate+gate to complete wallin when he scouts your 7 pool.
As the guy above corrected me, it was more like 60-65% win ratio. But most of the P losses were towards the end. It's fair to say it's around 50% vs P at 3500-3900, and 90-95% from 1500-3500.
If he forge fast expands first he basically loses. It's impossible to block off the entire area in time. 6 lings on a photon cannon is a dead photon cannon.
On April 11 2011 08:32 blazingblue16 wrote:
Doesn't a 6 pool auto lose when it's cross position on a large map?
Definitely not.
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On April 11 2011 08:35 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:28 rottenpotato wrote:On April 11 2011 08:26 teamsolid wrote:
I have a question, which build is actually more effective in ZvP, 6 pool or 7 pool? I was always curious. I know 7 pool comes ~7 seconds later, but you have enough cash to start 3 sets of lings as opposed to 2. And considering the large map sizes, does that 7 seconds really matter? I found the 6 was better overall against P. You don't need that 7th drone at all. The timing works out so that you have exactly 150 minerals when your spawning pool finishes. You usually find yourself absolutely drenched in minerals after 2 minutes. That's not true at least in the 2-3 reps I've watched from the pack. You ended up with ~100 minerals as the pool finished each time since you made an overlord, so could only start 2 sets of lings which finish at ~2:10. The next ling starts 15 secs later end finishes at ~2:25. Meanwhile with a 7 pool, you actually end up with exactly 150 minerals as the pool finishes and all 6 hatch at ~2:18 from my own test.
Sorry I meant the 7pool, I got my rushes mixed up.
You're right, 4 lings at the start. If he built a forge, which he should have if he wants any chance to win, it will be in the front to help block. There is room for 4 lings to hit it unless his positioning is utterly terrible. You want to hit that forge as soon and as hard as you can.
As the max room is 4 lings, the 6 is better overall as you get that little extra window of damage done against it.
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On April 11 2011 08:36 Reborn8u wrote:
What I find so frustrating when playing PvZ is that the build orders to block fast pools put you way behind vs a zerg that macro's. Once the 1st lings are out you can't scout and know when the zerg starts droning. I've had zergs early pool and make just 2 lings to kill my probe then go into macro mode. It takes so much time to get out Zealots to stop the amount of lings that can come out. Pretty scary that you got that high up with it though
Whenever I scout a 6pool and I didn't go forge first I just complete my walloff with a forge and another pylon and make a cannon asap, and stop making probes so you can re-walloff. As soon as the cannon finishes just continue on as normal. If you went forge first then the zerg just lost 
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I'm combining this with saying "corrupter brood lord ultralisk" at the beginning of every game. I haven't lost one yet!
EDIT: Also, you can have 150 mins with a 6-pool
6 OV scout close-air
6 pool
5 drone
6 drone (scout close-pos if its 4-player)
7 @100% pool, 150 minerals, 3 lings
10 extractor (trick)
10 zergling
10 cancel extractor
11 OV
lings until they hold it off
queen
drones
16 OV
~20 gas
~25 expo
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On April 11 2011 08:36 rottenpotato wrote:
It's impossible to block off the entire area in time. .
I'm no so sure about that, as a toss if you stop making probes as soon as you see it coming you should have the money to make 2 gates and a cannon
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On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better.
The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill.
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On April 11 2011 07:31 CanucksJC wrote:
Umm no... if you scout 6 pool second last or last on 4 player maps, you lose. I'm pretty sure it's unwinnable if you scout last on these huge maps now lol. You scout their base when lings are already in :s
I usually do the bisu style double probe scout, was pretty much able to block early pools with pylons/gateways/etc by seeing lings halfway across the map with my second probe. Even if you were banking that money for an FE its not like you are any more behind than they are.
The advantage of a big ass 4 player map is your buildings will be warped in earlier so its still easier to defend.
At least you can perfect wall easily in SC2, in BW there was basically nothing you could do unless you were stork.
On April 11 2011 08:42 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:32 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:27 KallWest wrote:
I think there should be a gentlements agreement between players to not cheese. As the win percentage of the OP shows, 6/7 pools clearly are much harder to defend than to execute, which gives the attacker an unfair advantage in most cases. People say it's part of the game, but I think that is not an honorable opinion.
It's like a wild west duel with both shooters waiting to 12 o'clock to shoot. There is nothing to really stop one person to shoot at 11.59, but that would make him a coward and an asshole. I feel similarily about cheesers.
Cheese does serve the purpose of making high level tournament players unpredictable and keeping their opponents on their feet, and it is a useful tool for them, but the rest of us, which is 99,999% of Starcraft players, should not cheese out of fairness and respect for our opponent. It's about making people modest dude. That's what all cheese is about. Making a person modest about their scouting. Protoss players who play blind to a Zerg and haven't walled off yet for obvious reasons, deserve to lose to an early rush. It's a reason why walling off so early is so important, and it's the reason scouting is so important. Every cheese is about keeping a players scouting modest. If a Zerg is reluctant to sac an overlord at around 5:25, then he has only himself to blame when he is ill-prepared for a 4 gate. Without cheese, there'd be no reason to scout, and there'd be less reason for people to learn how to prepare for EEHAN timing attacks. You should thank cheese for raising the skill cap of this game by forcing players to scout more often and better. The problem with this kind of cheese is that it's so incredibly successful. This is a build that CANNOT be interrupted that the OP reports a winrate of over 80% with (bar Terran). It's a serious fucking problem when a build has that kind of winrate. But that's not the worst thing about it. The worst is that once the 6pool goes down, we're facing a short game no matter WHAT. That's unbelievably stupid. Screw Brood Lords and Colossi, screw late-game transitions, screw taking your third, we have a game with the 6POOL! In my opinion, we and Blizzard shouldn't be encouraging play that cuts out a huge portion of the game, and the portion that takes most of the skill.
IMO I'd rather face a 6 pool as Protoss than a 4 warpgate as Terran because it is basically the same as a proxy 4 gate in BW without the disadvantages, and that shit was almost unbeatable. Now you can't even defend with 1 siege tank and a bunker so the example is tantamount to how ridiculous the build actually is and the reason why Terrans 1 base so much.
6 pool only that effective in BO1 where most of the matches aren't 6 pool, and I haven't faced a 6 pool in yonks, so it's not actually a problem. If all zergs 6 pooled you wouldn't get the same winrate, in fact you would get the opposite, it would basically be auto-lose, so all the zergs would stop doing it anyway.
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EPT
