EPT6-7 Pool to Top 400 NA - Your Thoughts? - Page 11
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Perplex
United States1693 Posts
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
So, who's to say if it's good or bad. If you want to keep doing it and you win with it. or you find it fun, go ahead. Others might not like it, but that's life. I don't like 2 rax rine/scv, doesn't mean terrans are going to stop doing it to make me feel better. gl. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On April 11 2011 08:55 Severedevil wrote: Except with nerfed dragoons with free range upgrade and buffed marines with free range upgrade and nerfed SCVs and buffed bunkers. And Marauders and Sentries. And bunker salvage allowing more profligate use of bunkers. And autorepair. And small depots that go up and down with less hit points than the old depot. And without the imposed requirement by other parts of the game that Terran tech up to Factory units. And Orbital Command instead of Comsat. So, actually not 'basically the same' at all. Except by removing 90% of my quote you took me out of context. Your argument does not actually disprove what I said. If BW protoss players always proxy 4 gated, we would probably always see 1 basing terrans, this doesn't happen obviously because having your gateways halfway across a map is a disadvantage once spider mines are laid around it. So it is usually only used to counter 1 Rax FE. However it is possible to FE against 6 pool because of the new wall mechanics. You can pylon/gateway/forge block your natural (if its narrow) and you'd be safe from zerglings and be miles ahead. (I don't have a problem with that either) Now my point was in contrast to what some guy said about how powerful 6 pool is, and how blizzard should do something about it. The thing is there are a ton of other builds which are more powerful than the 6 pool, but have much less disadvantages, such as 4 warp gate. 4 warp gate simply being as effective as a cheese without disadvantage of having your gateways halfway across the map. 6 pool does not change the state of the game nearly as much as cloaked banshees, immortals, void-rays, roaches, warpgate, army clumping, worker mining duration, etc. Honestly if you removed that BS, you would end up with more interesting games (Esp: PvP). Everything is balance-able so I no point whining about toss being weak, e.g when you could just e.g buff the core units. On April 11 2011 12:10 DamnCats wrote: This is ridiculous to me. If you can't get to masters playing standard and you 6 pool your way there just to play in tournaments online you are going to get crushed regardless. Shit I've been in masters since it came out and I get crushed most of the time in online tours and I have yet to 6 pool anyone on any ladder game. No one is "handed" masters. If you play such horrendous masters players wouldn't it be easy to get into masters w/o 6 pooling constantly just by beating the "horrendous" players you're playing against? Nothing about what you wrote makes any sense to me at all, in fact. You may know how to play "standard" as you put it, but if you aren't in masters because of your "standard" skills and instead rely on 6 pools to get you in, that simply means you're "standard" play is diamond level. That is what you should work on. Not becoming the next ActionJesus. Ah-ah-ah- ... Achhh!!!ActionJesuz!!! ... | ||
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Penecks
United States600 Posts
Person gets 6 pooled -> becomes more aware of the strat and takes extra measures to prevent it -> doesn't see 6 pool for a while, stops taking preventive measures -> Person loses to 6 pool. This diagram can also work with other "cheesy" builds, ex. losing to proxy gate -> much more vigilant about patrolling outside of base -> become less vigilant over time -> lose to proxy again. Of course, since you are fighting random people on the ladder, most will always be at a point where they don't consider these cheeses (especially at high masters). | ||
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trNimitz
204 Posts
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Ansinjunger
United States2451 Posts
On April 11 2011 12:11 imareaver3 wrote: As a high diamond player, I'll say the exact opposite. The bottom tier of masters (The players I face) range from slightly worse than to slightly better than me, and many have what I'd call diamond level mechanics; I can beat them regularly. Of course, most of masters is different and better, but low-tier masters and high-tier diamond are essentially at the same skill level. In the end, who gives a crap? Either way it means you have vast improvements ahead if you are serious about this game. I really hope they don't go with some "requires 2nd overlord" crap. Just put a starting cooldown like on WC3 taverns that say limits it to 8 pool at earliest. Or just have fun defending 6 pool. In the end it'll be more satisfying to learn to defend it than to QQ and wait for a nerf. I am somewhat interested in an early 2nd scout, but I think for now I'd rather just roll with it and say my "gg's." As I sorta mentioned, I'd rather learn to defend it better and there's only one way to do that. | ||
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Asherak
New Zealand34 Posts
Lost first 2, scouted at 9 with a 13 gate every time. Pretty much an instant loss if you scout them last on some of the new maps. The one I held I scouted second and I barely held that. | ||
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Samura1Jack
Sweden111 Posts
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
Well rvz into pvz, didn't stop him from 6pooling tho. Mostly he said he'd do it, but I managed to lose one game even while blind 10gating. Well it should be defendable with 10gate unless you fuck up, but still not autowin.It's nice to have someone in ladder who you can rely to 6pool, gives you decent practice against it  | ||
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njtwkr
Sweden73 Posts
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
But I think doing cheesey builds just for some emblem or whatever is just stupid; it's not like you win anything (real money or sth.) and you'll just stay on the same level of play, or even decrease in skill. If you're having fun doing this, do it, but if you want to achieve anything meaningful in the game and get better at it, it's the last thing I'd do. | ||
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sagefreke
United States241 Posts
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413X
Sweden203 Posts
Why? Well, the follow ups variate ALOT. And if you aren't prepared for the followup, you lose. Let's look at them. Either, the zerg can do only lings and just continue producing lings and bruteforce his way in or he could go roaches. Since the zerg can go roaches, I need stalkers to defend myself since zealots only won't do the job. So if I were to rush them after such a push, i would win to roaches, but not to mass continued zerglings when he is bruteforcing himself in. If I were to rush stalkers and get them and the zerg is going the roaches. It is dead even. The zerg can if he wants expand and whatever, and the toss has to continue probing. However, any sort of 4gate follow up would only be not enough units to win against his mass roach play that would follow. Since his army is so huge, if he scouts you expanding. You would lose to a push that deny his expand long enough. There is an another method in dealing with 6pool, that is the cannon way. This way has proven to be uneffective in my attempts. Let's say you scout the 6 pool, he runs over, you have 1 cannon down and survive. If the zerg were to have only produced those 6 lings in the beginning, he could go fast roach. Which would mean that that cannon is your ONLY DEFENCE, so you would have to place down even more cannons. If the zerg is observant with overlords, he can scout this. And go for macro game if more cannons come. | ||
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Zerokaiser
Canada885 Posts
Edit: On April 11 2011 15:43 413X wrote: This bullshit, if we are to be serious for a bit, is one of the reasons i hate SC2. Even though I'm a 3500 Master protoss (season1), I still lose ALOT to 6pools. Why? Well, the follow ups variate ALOT. And if you aren't prepared for the followup, you lose. Let's look at them. Either, the zerg can do only lings and just continue producing lings and bruteforce his way in or he could go roaches. Since the zerg can go roaches, I need stalkers to defend myself since zealots only won't do the job. So if I were to rush them after such a push, i would win to roaches, but not to mass continued zerglings when he is bruteforcing himself in. If I were to rush stalkers and get them and the zerg is going the roaches. It is dead even. The zerg can if he wants expand and whatever, and the toss has to continue probing. However, any sort of 4gate follow up would only be not enough units to win against his mass roach play that would follow. Since his army is so huge, if he scouts you expanding. You would lose to a push that deny his expand long enough. There is an another method in dealing with 6pool, that is the cannon way. This way has proven to be uneffective in my attempts. Let's say you scout the 6 pool, he runs over, you have 1 cannon down and survive. If the zerg were to have only produced those 6 lings in the beginning, he could go fast roach. Which would mean that that cannon is your ONLY DEFENCE, so you would have to place down even more cannons. If the zerg is observant with overlords, he can scout this. And go for macro game if more cannons come. Scout earlier and you have time to wall off with buildings. The only way a zerg can 'follow up' from a 6pool is if you fight him with probes and lose 90% of them. Come on man. 3500 Master and you didn't think of throwing up an extra pylon at the choke? Obviously it's harder to scout on 4p maps, but it's not impossible. Learn overlord scouting patterns for one. Any normal build will have 2 overlords, the second of which is usually sent to the natural to cover for a morphing hatchery's poor vision range. 6pool only has 1 overlord. If you ever see 2, you know it's not a 6pool. Worst comes to worst, you might have to, gasp, delay things for a few seconds to figure out whether you need to react to 6pool or not so you know whether to cut probes to afford that second pylon. It's called managing your economy. Having an efficient 9pylon 13gate 14gas 15pylon 4gate build doesn't help you any if you don't scout and you die. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
If zerglings come your way just warp a pylon in to close off the main until you get enough zeals out. If you are doing a forge FE, then you can do 3 things, depending on duration. 1. Most urgent: Wall off your main with pylons. 2. Wall off your natural with gateways/pylons/2 cannons. Bring in 4/6 probes to defend just incase there is a hole until cannons warp in. 3. Build a gateway + 2 cannon wall (cannon then gateway then cannon) and plug hole with 4/6 probes until cannons warp in. Remember to bait the lings with the scouting probe by attacking the lings. | ||
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Ouga
Finland645 Posts
On April 11 2011 15:26 kickinhead wrote: Firstly, 6 pool and 7pool is quite a bit of a difference IMHO... This one Drone really helps you recover into a longer game if you didn't win with your rush. Actually 7pool only adds +1drone to the mix. 8pool is hugely more economical tbh. With 8pool you can actually do drone,drone,over,drone and still only be 5sec slow on 5/6th lings. With 6/7pools you can only do drone,over. So with 8pool you actually use 2 larvas more. Imo only sense to 7pool is to be more economical in rushing til end. Like in zvz you pull drones with 2gas trick and go with 7drone 10ling, which you couldn't pull off with 6pool. Ofc 8pool doesn't autowin any other builds than really greedy stuff like hat/nexus first, but really I don't see point in going slightest bit slower lings with 7p than 6p since it's still way too much of an allin. | ||
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TheAwesomeAll
Netherlands1609 Posts
On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote: Lol ya I tend to get pretty angry when I lose to cheese. I am much more experienced vs 6 pool now though, so I challenge you to a 6 pool rematch whenever! My rage is never a personal attack of hatred, just me venting my frustration. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) I one time was on a 10 winstreak, my record was 11 winstreak. I was super pumped for the match. I spawned on typhon peaks. PvZ. I pylonscouted. He 6pooled me, i scouted him last GG That pissed me really off. | ||
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Zerokaiser
Canada885 Posts
On April 11 2011 16:01 Ouga wrote: Actually 7pool only adds +1drone to the mix. 8pool is hugely more economical tbh. With 8pool you can actually do drone,drone,over,drone and still only be 5sec slow on 5/6th lings. With 6/7pools you can only do drone,over. So with 8pool you actually use 2 larvas more. Imo only sense to 7pool is to be more economical in rushing til end. Like in zvz you pull drones with 2gas trick and go with 7drone 10ling, which you couldn't pull off with 6pool. Ofc 8pool doesn't autowin any other builds than really greedy stuff like hat/nexus first, but really I don't see point in going slightest bit slower lings with 7p than 6p since it's still way too much of an allin. Lol. 7pool gives plenty of economy for what it's for. 8pool is a medium-build that does nothing well. 7pool is in zvz so that you can build spines at your opponents creep. 6pool is in everything else for effectiveness. 7pool vs. Terran is just stupid, vs. protoss it's saying "Please overreact while I don't make any lings and drone up." 8pool is too slow to kill and too poor to recover. | ||
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Elwar
953 Posts
Thought it was funny after reading this thread today and seeing other protosses say they struggle with it, I was thinking wow its not that hard to defend and then....I lose to one :/ He was top 8 masters btw. | ||
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