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On April 11 2011 15:49 Zerokaiser wrote: I say every zerg should 6pool for a week and force Protoss players to adjust their "efficient" builds to account for legitimate threats, just like they keep telling us that we die to 4gate because we're "greedy". Edit: Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 15:43 413X wrote:
This bullshit, if we are to be serious for a bit, is one of the reasons i hate SC2. Even though I'm a 3500 Master protoss (season1), I still lose ALOT to 6pools.
Why? Well, the follow ups variate ALOT. And if you aren't prepared for the followup, you lose. Let's look at them. Either, the zerg can do only lings and just continue producing lings and bruteforce his way in or he could go roaches.
Since the zerg can go roaches, I need stalkers to defend myself since zealots only won't do the job. So if I were to rush them after such a push, i would win to roaches, but not to mass continued zerglings when he is bruteforcing himself in.
If I were to rush stalkers and get them and the zerg is going the roaches. It is dead even. The zerg can if he wants expand and whatever, and the toss has to continue probing. However, any sort of 4gate follow up would only be not enough units to win against his mass roach play that would follow. Since his army is so huge, if he scouts you expanding. You would lose to a push that deny his expand long enough.
There is an another method in dealing with 6pool, that is the cannon way. This way has proven to be uneffective in my attempts. Let's say you scout the 6 pool, he runs over, you have 1 cannon down and survive. If the zerg were to have only produced those 6 lings in the beginning, he could go fast roach. Which would mean that that cannon is your ONLY DEFENCE, so you would have to place down even more cannons. If the zerg is observant with overlords, he can scout this. And go for macro game if more cannons come. Scout earlier and you have time to wall off with buildings. The only way a zerg can 'follow up' from a 6pool is if you fight him with probes and lose 90% of them. Come on man. 3500 Master and you didn't think of throwing up an extra pylon at the choke? Obviously it's harder to scout on 4p maps, but it's not impossible. Learn overlord scouting patterns for one. Any normal build will have 2 overlords, the second of which is usually sent to the natural to cover for a morphing hatchery's poor vision range. 6pool only has 1 overlord. If you ever see 2, you know it's not a 6pool. Worst comes to worst, you might have to, gasp, delay things for a few seconds to figure out whether you need to react to 6pool or not so you know whether to cut probes to afford that second pylon. It's called managing your economy. Having an efficient 9pylon 13gate 14gas 15pylon 4gate build doesn't help you any if you don't scout and you die.
Why would I want to block off? if anything that would be the stupiest thing to do. Let's say I block myself in, what whould happend? Well the zerglings would start hitting everything they can hit, any zealots that you make will spawn on the side inside your base because all the zerglings are blocking the zealot from spawning outside. Then the zerglings would hit all buildings until they have 20 hp and then kill all at the same time. At this point, you only have at most 3 zealots with the forth being canceled as the gates goes down. What exacly is your followup here? making 2 additional gates behind? Kill your own pylon and go back out? The zerg doesn't neccessarly need to kill the pylon, and he would just see if you starting wacking away on your own pylon. So why place it there in the first place?
But in my first post I complained nothing about holding off the first push. It's the followups that is tricky. Since it's a dice toss on what the opponent is doing. You cannot scout him, and each follow up has it's own counter. I'm not saying it's impossible to hold off a 6pool in any way, it's just that it can go wrong on so many places, and usually it always get's the player about even with the zerg since you had to commited so much in defending.
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On April 11 2011 15:43 413X wrote:
This bullshit, if we are to be serious for a bit, is one of the reasons i hate SC2. Even though I'm a 3500 Master protoss (season1), I still lose ALOT to 6pools.
Why? Well, the follow ups variate ALOT. And if you aren't prepared for the followup, you lose. Let's look at them. Either, the zerg can do only lings and just continue producing lings and bruteforce his way in or he could go roaches.
Since the zerg can go roaches, I need stalkers to defend myself since zealots only won't do the job. So if I were to rush them after such a push, i would win to roaches, but not to mass continued zerglings when he is bruteforcing himself in.
If I were to rush stalkers and get them and the zerg is going the roaches. It is dead even. The zerg can if he wants expand and whatever, and the toss has to continue probing. However, any sort of 4gate follow up would only be not enough units to win against his mass roach play that would follow. Since his army is so huge, if he scouts you expanding. You would lose to a push that deny his expand long enough.
There is an another method in dealing with 6pool, that is the cannon way. This way has proven to be uneffective in my attempts. Let's say you scout the 6 pool, he runs over, you have 1 cannon down and survive. If the zerg were to have only produced those 6 lings in the beginning, he could go fast roach. Which would mean that that cannon is your ONLY DEFENCE, so you would have to place down even more cannons. If the zerg is observant with overlords, he can scout this. And go for macro game if more cannons come.
stargate followup to cannon in, 1 phoenix and 1 void, what is he going to do? he will probably have a queen and you'll catch him droning or rushing with roaches, you win. No way in hell he has a second queen or hydras.
But as to hating the current state of SCII because of 6 pools, well, at least you got the better end of that stick. Zergs get 4 gated or marine SCV'd all the time (in my experience playing both protoss and zerg, zerg deals with all-ins a lot more than protoss, barring PvP if you can consider 4 gate an all in in that match up), and being prepared doesn't mean you're going to win. It's just something you have to deal with. I've broken a wall after losing 10 games in a row to 4 gates even though I was blind countering, it's not like frustration due to all-ins are unique to protoss. Until SCII stops being patched, there are going to be a wide verity of new plays and new changes breed all ins, and all we can do as players is learn the timings as best we can and try to adapt, at least you play protoss, have a coke and a smile.
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On April 11 2011 16:14 413X wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 15:49 Zerokaiser wrote: I say every zerg should 6pool for a week and force Protoss players to adjust their "efficient" builds to account for legitimate threats, just like they keep telling us that we die to 4gate because we're "greedy". Edit: On April 11 2011 15:43 413X wrote:
This bullshit, if we are to be serious for a bit, is one of the reasons i hate SC2. Even though I'm a 3500 Master protoss (season1), I still lose ALOT to 6pools.
Why? Well, the follow ups variate ALOT. And if you aren't prepared for the followup, you lose. Let's look at them. Either, the zerg can do only lings and just continue producing lings and bruteforce his way in or he could go roaches.
Since the zerg can go roaches, I need stalkers to defend myself since zealots only won't do the job. So if I were to rush them after such a push, i would win to roaches, but not to mass continued zerglings when he is bruteforcing himself in.
If I were to rush stalkers and get them and the zerg is going the roaches. It is dead even. The zerg can if he wants expand and whatever, and the toss has to continue probing. However, any sort of 4gate follow up would only be not enough units to win against his mass roach play that would follow. Since his army is so huge, if he scouts you expanding. You would lose to a push that deny his expand long enough.
There is an another method in dealing with 6pool, that is the cannon way. This way has proven to be uneffective in my attempts. Let's say you scout the 6 pool, he runs over, you have 1 cannon down and survive. If the zerg were to have only produced those 6 lings in the beginning, he could go fast roach. Which would mean that that cannon is your ONLY DEFENCE, so you would have to place down even more cannons. If the zerg is observant with overlords, he can scout this. And go for macro game if more cannons come. Scout earlier and you have time to wall off with buildings. The only way a zerg can 'follow up' from a 6pool is if you fight him with probes and lose 90% of them. Come on man. 3500 Master and you didn't think of throwing up an extra pylon at the choke? Obviously it's harder to scout on 4p maps, but it's not impossible. Learn overlord scouting patterns for one. Any normal build will have 2 overlords, the second of which is usually sent to the natural to cover for a morphing hatchery's poor vision range. 6pool only has 1 overlord. If you ever see 2, you know it's not a 6pool. Worst comes to worst, you might have to, gasp, delay things for a few seconds to figure out whether you need to react to 6pool or not so you know whether to cut probes to afford that second pylon. It's called managing your economy. Having an efficient 9pylon 13gate 14gas 15pylon 4gate build doesn't help you any if you don't scout and you die. Why would I want to block off? if anything that would be the stupiest thing to do. Let's say I block myself in, what whould happend? Well the zerglings would start hitting everything they can hit, any zealots that you make will spawn on the side inside your base because all the zerglings are blocking the zealot from spawning outside. Then the zerglings would hit all buildings until they have 20 hp and then kill all at the same time. At this point, you only have at most 3 zealots with the forth being canceled as the gates goes down. What exacly is your followup here? making 2 additional gates behind? Kill your own pylon and go back out? The zerg doesn't neccessarly need to kill the pylon, and he would just see if you starting wacking away on your own pylon. So why place it there in the first place? But in my first post I complained nothing about holding off the first push. It's the followups that is tricky. Since it's a dice toss on what the opponent is doing. You cannot scout him, and each follow up has it's own counter. I'm not saying it's impossible to hold off a 6pool in any way, it's just that it can go wrong on so many places, and usually it always get's the player about even with the zerg since you had to commited so much in defending.
How did you ever get to 3500 masters if you've never heard of a forge?
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On April 11 2011 08:14 rottenpotato wrote:Kiwikaki was the only Protoss able to hold it off without a forge. Granted I found him last and he scouted it early, he bested me. We ended up base-racing with him killing my base with zealots and kiting my ...~16 lings with 1 stalker. Nothing I could do about that one 
I watched the game vs Kiwikaki and it's a quite nice replay. Kiwikaki 14-gated and did the ordinary scout route on Slag Pits and finds a finished pool at 2.03.
Kiwikaki then went another gate and blocked the ramp with pylon, zealot etc and holds it off, really nice done by Kiwikaki, especially after a pretty late first GW. After that it turned into a quite funny base race  .
If you want to watch that replay - download the pack and watch Slag Pits (25).
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On April 11 2011 07:15 rottenpotato wrote:
Win ratio vs Terran: ~15-20%
Win ratio vs Zerg: ~65-75%
Win ratio vs Protoss: ~85-95%
hahahahaha. Maybe they can undo that zealot build time change they made a while ago? With better roaches, I really doubt it would bring back 2-gate zealot rushes vs z.
On April 11 2011 07:25 Zerokaiser wrote:
If a Protoss player is in the top 400 and hasn't learned how to safeguard themselves from 6pool, they deserve to lose.
If it's a 4 player map and you don't scout it in time and react, it is literally a 100% build order loss and there was nothing you could do. It's just silly. Of course anyone can stop a 6 pool on 2 player maps with a 9 scout, that's not what's stupid about it.
On April 11 2011 16:27 fIERCEbROSNAN wrote:
let's just remove 6pool and agree on the fact that it's unacceptable that zerg should have unscoutable cheeses.
I totally agree. Just make pool require a 2nd overlord or something.
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let's just remove 6pool and agree on the fact that it's unacceptable that zerg should have unscoutable cheeses.
edit: curses. my sarcasm has backfired.
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On April 11 2011 12:10 DamnCats wrote:
This is ridiculous to me. If you can't get to masters playing standard and you 6 pool your way there just to play in tournaments online you are going to get crushed regardless. Shit I've been in masters since it came out and I get crushed most of the time in online tours and I have yet to 6 pool anyone on any ladder game. No one is "handed" masters. If you play such horrendous masters players wouldn't it be easy to get into masters w/o 6 pooling constantly just by beating the "horrendous" players you're playing against?
Nothing about what you wrote makes any sense to me at all, in fact.
You may know how to play "standard" as you put it, but if you aren't in masters because of your "standard" skills and instead rely on 6 pools to get you in, that simply means you're "standard" play is diamond level. That is what you should work on. Not becoming the next ActionJesus.
The reason it sounds ridiculous and actually isn't is because of how promotions work on ladder. You need to have stability in your mmr which is impossible when you play standard. You can't be a streaky player. Winning 3 and then losing 1 consistently is what gets you promoted which is why 6 pooling works so well. It's going to work against a lot of bad players, then when the system puts you against a better player, you lose, then go back to playing slightly worse players. Yeah, you're going to get losing streaks every now and then, but overall 6 pooling gives you stability as you progress which is what gets you promoted.
If I win 8 games in a row with standard play vs 50% masters 50% diamond and then lose 3 in a row because I'm tiring after a long session then blizzard's promotion system doesn't see my mmr as stable. One minute it's masters level, the next it's "diamond" level even though I'm making mistakes(supply block,accidental ctrl group rebinding, not paying attention during scouting) because of fatigue.
Another difference is if I play standard the game's going to go on for a long time. I'm going to get in roughly 6 games in 3 hours against mostly bad opponents(assuming 6 games are 30 minutes which is a typical macro game give or take). Blizzard doesn't care what build I'm doing, I can either get 3 quick wins with 6 pool in 4-5 minutes or win 3 games in an hour and a half. It's about using my time meaningfully.
Unfortunately, teams/tournaments require masters. Masters isn't exactly a measure of skill as it is a time investmen; if I can cut my promotion time in half and still feel comfortable with my game(I play 5-6 hours of practice games a day playing STANDARD, and 2-3 laddering) why wouldn't I do it? I really don't care if it "makes sense" to you or not. In a few days I'll be exactly where I need to be and I guarantee you I won't be having any problems with people like you who "get crushed most of the time in online tours". Why do you deserve to be masters if it's an actual skill assessment when you get crushed all the time? Because it isn't, it's a time investment.
On topic, OP you lose a lot in your replays and a few games aren't 6 pool at all. Were these ALL the games you played or just a portion of them? I watched a handful out of interest in the skill level of the players you were facing and you lost A LOT. I find it incredible that you moved up that quickly with all the losses. Also, you're a huge douche in these games but I find most of your statements hilarious.
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is a good best of 7 build to throw someone off, but isn't a good strat
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On April 11 2011 08:26 Jeffbelittle wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:20 Acritter wrote:On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Lemme just call you out on that. You're completely incorrect. Allow me to show you why with the 14/14 build order. 9 Overlord 14 Gas 14 Pool Oh wait, what was that? It seems you built an Overlord. Whoops! Looks like that puts you at a count of two Overlords before the gas and pool went down. Only way you're doing 14/14 with one Overlord is if you build Extractors at your main and nat and then cancel them all. Not even sure if that will work, you'll have to have a larva spawn before you cancel the Extractors. Now, I see the mistake you made. You were thinking "second Ovie BUILT," not "second Ovie TOTAL." Please be courteous when you're trying to correct someone's error, otherwise you end up looking like a jerk if you're right and stupid and uninformed if you're wrong. Okay, you're right. But let's not seriously validate the claim that 6/7/8/or 9 pools should be just eliminated from the game. It's a cheese. It's a cheese just like rushed proxy stargate play is a cheese just like proxy gates are cheese just like cannon rushing is cheese. Cheese promotes good scouting, because without scouting you lose, and if you scout and respond correctly, you'll win 100% percent of the time. There is 0 deviation between a master level 6 pool and a grand master level 6 pool. Learn to scout it, and you'll get yourself some free points.
In broodwar, a reaver drop, a proxy gate, and a 4 pool were all cheeses. But some cheeses require some skill, and can also be scouted and combated even if they weren't scouted. Other cheeses rely only on blind luck and don't require very much micro.
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On April 11 2011 16:49 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:26 Jeffbelittle wrote:On April 11 2011 08:20 Acritter wrote:On April 11 2011 08:14 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2011 07:26 Whiplash wrote:On April 11 2011 07:21 rottenpotato wrote:
Protoss players got absolutely pissed(most), and I don't blame them.
That VTWhiplash guy's brain exploded.
The replay pack is more to see the BM that people portray or if people want to learn how to stop it. It includes all the games I lost as well. (also blizz should make a spawning pool require 2 overlords, dustin browder's excuse for keeping 6 pool in the game is that they want the player to be on the edge of their seat from the start of the game which is some BS) WTF? Glad you're not on the balancing team, cause if that was a serious remark (as it sounds like) you're a dumbass. You probably don't even realize that a standard 14/14 build comes before the second overlord. Lemme just call you out on that. You're completely incorrect. Allow me to show you why with the 14/14 build order. 9 Overlord 14 Gas 14 Pool Oh wait, what was that? It seems you built an Overlord. Whoops! Looks like that puts you at a count of two Overlords before the gas and pool went down. Only way you're doing 14/14 with one Overlord is if you build Extractors at your main and nat and then cancel them all. Not even sure if that will work, you'll have to have a larva spawn before you cancel the Extractors. Now, I see the mistake you made. You were thinking "second Ovie BUILT," not "second Ovie TOTAL." Please be courteous when you're trying to correct someone's error, otherwise you end up looking like a jerk if you're right and stupid and uninformed if you're wrong. Okay, you're right. But let's not seriously validate the claim that 6/7/8/or 9 pools should be just eliminated from the game. It's a cheese. It's a cheese just like rushed proxy stargate play is a cheese just like proxy gates are cheese just like cannon rushing is cheese. Cheese promotes good scouting, because without scouting you lose, and if you scout and respond correctly, you'll win 100% percent of the time. There is 0 deviation between a master level 6 pool and a grand master level 6 pool. Learn to scout it, and you'll get yourself some free points. In broodwar, a reaver drop, a proxy gate, and a 4 pool were all cheeses. But some cheeses require some skill, and can also be scouted and combated even if they weren't scouted. Other cheeses rely only on blind luck and don't require very much micro.
What how is reaver drop cheese at all?
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On April 11 2011 16:32 shadowboxer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 12:10 DamnCats wrote:
This is ridiculous to me. If you can't get to masters playing standard and you 6 pool your way there just to play in tournaments online you are going to get crushed regardless. Shit I've been in masters since it came out and I get crushed most of the time in online tours and I have yet to 6 pool anyone on any ladder game. No one is "handed" masters. If you play such horrendous masters players wouldn't it be easy to get into masters w/o 6 pooling constantly just by beating the "horrendous" players you're playing against?
Nothing about what you wrote makes any sense to me at all, in fact.
You may know how to play "standard" as you put it, but if you aren't in masters because of your "standard" skills and instead rely on 6 pools to get you in, that simply means you're "standard" play is diamond level. That is what you should work on. Not becoming the next ActionJesus.
The reason it sounds ridiculous and actually isn't is because of how promotions work on ladder. You need to have stability in your mmr which is impossible when you play standard. You can't be a streaky player. Winning 3 and then losing 1 consistently is what gets you promoted which is why 6 pooling works so well. It's going to work against a lot of bad players, then when the system puts you against a better player, you lose, then go back to playing slightly worse players. Yeah, you're going to get losing streaks every now and then, but overall 6 pooling gives you stability as you progress which is what gets you promoted. If I win 8 games in a row with standard play vs 50% masters 50% diamond and then lose 3 in a row because I'm tiring after a long session then blizzard's promotion system doesn't see my mmr as stable. One minute it's masters level, the next it's "diamond" level even though I'm making mistakes(supply block,accidental ctrl group rebinding, not paying attention during scouting) because of fatigue. Another difference is if I play standard the game's going to go on for a long time. I'm going to get in roughly 6 games in 3 hours against mostly bad opponents(assuming 6 games are 30 minutes which is a typical macro game give or take). Blizzard doesn't care what build I'm doing, I can either get 3 quick wins with 6 pool in 4-5 minutes or win 3 games in an hour and a half. It's about using my time meaningfully. Unfortunately, teams/tournaments require masters. Masters isn't exactly a measure of skill as it is a time investmen; if I can cut my promotion time in half and still feel comfortable with my game(I play 5-6 hours of practice games a day playing STANDARD, and 2-3 laddering) why wouldn't I do it? I really don't care if it "makes sense" to you or not. In a few days I'll be exactly where I need to be and I guarantee you I won't be having any problems with people like you who "get crushed most of the time in online tours". Why do you deserve to be masters if it's an actual skill assessment when you get crushed all the time? Because it isn't, it's a time investment. On topic, OP you lose a lot in your replays and a few games aren't 6 pool at all. Were these ALL the games you played or just a portion of them? I watched a handful out of interest in the skill level of the players you were facing and you lost A LOT. I find it incredible that you moved up that quickly with all the losses. Also, you're a huge douche in these games but I find most of your statements hilarious.
Literally all of them for the lockout week. I removed the few UMS games I played though...Someone told me a Zealot Frenzy snuck through, oh well
I talked throughout the thread about it becoming harder and harder near the end of the week. There came a point where I stopped trying to do it vs Terran altogether.
I'm glad my chat made you smile
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a zerg combatex? who would have thought
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On April 11 2011 16:24 TheSilverfox wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 08:14 rottenpotato wrote:Kiwikaki was the only Protoss able to hold it off without a forge. Granted I found him last and he scouted it early, he bested me. We ended up base-racing with him killing my base with zealots and kiting my ...~16 lings with 1 stalker. Nothing I could do about that one I watched the game vs Kiwikaki and it's a quite nice replay. Kiwikaki 14-gated and did the ordinary scout route on Slag Pits and finds a finished pool at 2.03. Kiwikaki then went another gate and blocked the ramp with pylon, zealot etc and holds it off, really nice done by Kiwikaki, especially after a pretty late first GW. After that it turned into a quite funny base race . If you want to watch that replay - download the pack and watch Slag Pits (25).
so nice, such an honor to play against kiwi, i wish i can play with/against him ><
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On April 11 2011 07:31 CanucksJC wrote:
Umm no... if you scout 6 pool second last or last on 4 player maps, you lose. I'm pretty sure it's unwinnable if you scout last on these huge maps now lol. You scout their base when lings are already in :s
even if you scout it and find it on the last spot in a 4 player map the lings wont be entering your base UN-noticed unless you just are not aware of your map... and if you are ... that's your issue and your failing you deserve to lose for not having map control. also how many toss/terran dont wall off vs a zerg? toss leave room for a zealot...easily closed by a pylon. and you cant say but the lings will kill the pylon and get in anyway... yes they will kill it but the 3 you build behind the first gives you more time for a single cannon to win you the game!
obviously maps like scrap station where the ramp is huge ... its probably a loss for anyone but another zerg player. in which case it comes down to micro.
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A few day's ago I saw root.Destiny do 7pool but it was more macro oriented.
He would get his lings out early and he kept talking about how safe it was in most matchups.
Anyone have any information on that?
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On April 11 2011 17:38 ClutterLustRott wrote:
A few day's ago I saw root.Destiny do 7pool but it was more macro oriented.
He would get his lings out early and he kept talking about how safe it was in most matchups.
Anyone have any information on that?
I think you are reffering to the 7 pool, drone to 9, double extractor trick 6 lings build!
I do find that very strong vs protoss. Let me find a link for that.
Edit: Refer to posts by catz on this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189702
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Funny how many zergs are commentating here who've obviously never played against a decent 6 pooler. It's piss easy to transition out of, protoss pretty much has to get a forge and cannon if it wants to stay safe vs a roach follow up or keep its economic lead (=not use probes as fighting units). Zerg can easily take an expo and drone happily with larva inject. Then it sends an overlord in your base before you can possibly have a stalker out, see's how many gas you have, probably will see exactly what you're doing and what buildings you've got, he makes the counter, he wins!
The only games I've won vs 6 pool as a mid masters game spammer are ones where the opponent quit right after his lings found a wall-off (LOL), or my opponent just didn't take advantage of his scouting capabilities and I surprised him (whether that's a 5:30min zealot rush, voidray rush or DT rush, 4 gate always fails btw  ).
Having larva inject so early really makes zerg so much stronger. :/
edit: I'm gonna watch that kiwikaki game though, maybe one doesn't need a forge to defend.
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I can usually hold off a 6-pool with a forge and cannon, but that requires scouting and if you scout em last on a 4 player map you're pretty much dead as has been said before. And to the zergs saying they have to account for 4 gate so you should do a safer build.../facepalm.
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On April 11 2011 08:04 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 07:39 ZasZ. wrote:On April 11 2011 07:36 bkrow wrote:On April 11 2011 07:27 Bonkarooni wrote:
Wait..you don't condone cheesing, yet you cheesed for like a week straight and ruined everyone elses ladder experience?
I dont care if you cheese or not, but dont start your post by saying "This is a bad thing to do, and even though I do it all the time it isn't really who I am". Actually, your actions DO make you who you are. "Ruined every elses ladder experience" - are you serious!?!?! That is close to the most RIDICULOUS thing i have ever read on these forums! If you lose to a 6pool the only person responsible for ruining your ladder experience.. IS YOU! You sound really offended over someone 6pooling which to me sounds a little strange. If you're good enough to be top400 you are good enough to learn how to defend a 6pool; the only person responsible for your laddy experience is YOU While it's true that top400 should know how to stop a 6 pool...your opponents are more than capable of ruining your ladder experience. YOU only have control over which builds you choose to do in response to what your opponent does. If for some reason, in some hypothetical world, all of the people you went up against in ladder cheesed, you could certainly stop it but would it be fun? I'd pretty much consider my ladder experience ruined. That said, I'm not surprised at the OP. It's no new development that cheese works at the highest levels of play against opponents that are unprepared for it. Combine that with a ladder that tends to match you up against different people every time until the very top levels of play and you have a recipe for cheesy success. I am not saying that your ladder experience won't be ruined; i am saying you are the only one responsible for this. You are responsible for every game you lose; people constantly look for everyone/thing else to blame when they lose games - balance, maps, oh he cheesed me - the real answer is simple.. BE BETTER .. If you learn how to counter cheese you would be winning every game and your ladder experience would be amazing; how come we are so proud of ourselves when we win, but when we lose it is someone elses fault? Anyway; cheese has always worked at a high level and is an important part of the game particularly in a Bo3/5/7 etc where you need your play to remain unpredictable. We have seen the best players in the world cheese in the middle of a series or when they sense it is appropriate
i dont think you understand him, even if you beat a 6pool you still had an awefull game and your laddering experience is still ruined
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On April 11 2011 16:14 413X wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2011 15:49 Zerokaiser wrote: I say every zerg should 6pool for a week and force Protoss players to adjust their "efficient" builds to account for legitimate threats, just like they keep telling us that we die to 4gate because we're "greedy". Edit: On April 11 2011 15:43 413X wrote:
This bullshit, if we are to be serious for a bit, is one of the reasons i hate SC2. Even though I'm a 3500 Master protoss (season1), I still lose ALOT to 6pools.
Why? Well, the follow ups variate ALOT. And if you aren't prepared for the followup, you lose. Let's look at them. Either, the zerg can do only lings and just continue producing lings and bruteforce his way in or he could go roaches.
Since the zerg can go roaches, I need stalkers to defend myself since zealots only won't do the job. So if I were to rush them after such a push, i would win to roaches, but not to mass continued zerglings when he is bruteforcing himself in.
If I were to rush stalkers and get them and the zerg is going the roaches. It is dead even. The zerg can if he wants expand and whatever, and the toss has to continue probing. However, any sort of 4gate follow up would only be not enough units to win against his mass roach play that would follow. Since his army is so huge, if he scouts you expanding. You would lose to a push that deny his expand long enough.
There is an another method in dealing with 6pool, that is the cannon way. This way has proven to be uneffective in my attempts. Let's say you scout the 6 pool, he runs over, you have 1 cannon down and survive. If the zerg were to have only produced those 6 lings in the beginning, he could go fast roach. Which would mean that that cannon is your ONLY DEFENCE, so you would have to place down even more cannons. If the zerg is observant with overlords, he can scout this. And go for macro game if more cannons come. Scout earlier and you have time to wall off with buildings. The only way a zerg can 'follow up' from a 6pool is if you fight him with probes and lose 90% of them. Come on man. 3500 Master and you didn't think of throwing up an extra pylon at the choke? Obviously it's harder to scout on 4p maps, but it's not impossible. Learn overlord scouting patterns for one. Any normal build will have 2 overlords, the second of which is usually sent to the natural to cover for a morphing hatchery's poor vision range. 6pool only has 1 overlord. If you ever see 2, you know it's not a 6pool. Worst comes to worst, you might have to, gasp, delay things for a few seconds to figure out whether you need to react to 6pool or not so you know whether to cut probes to afford that second pylon. It's called managing your economy. Having an efficient 9pylon 13gate 14gas 15pylon 4gate build doesn't help you any if you don't scout and you die. Why would I want to block off? if anything that would be the stupiest thing to do. Let's say I block myself in, what whould happend? Well the zerglings would start hitting everything they can hit, any zealots that you make will spawn on the side inside your base because all the zerglings are blocking the zealot from spawning outside. Then the zerglings would hit all buildings until they have 20 hp and then kill all at the same time. At this point, you only have at most 3 zealots with the forth being canceled as the gates goes down. What exacly is your followup here? making 2 additional gates behind? Kill your own pylon and go back out? The zerg doesn't neccessarly need to kill the pylon, and he would just see if you starting wacking away on your own pylon. So why place it there in the first place? But in my first post I complained nothing about holding off the first push. It's the followups that is tricky. Since it's a dice toss on what the opponent is doing. You cannot scout him, and each follow up has it's own counter. I'm not saying it's impossible to hold off a 6pool in any way, it's just that it can go wrong on so many places, and usually it always get's the player about even with the zerg since you had to commited so much in defending.
Lol...it's pretty obvious that you aren't looking for ways to defend it. You're just looking to bitch.
Even if you've never heard of a forge and you're walling gateway-cybercore-pylon, chronoboost a couple zealots then destroy the walling pylon after you won't be overwhelmed. Tah-dah. What the do you expect the zerg player to have?
You don't seem to understand that 6pool is all-in.
The only way 6pool can outright kill you is if he brings all his drones, at which point all you need to do is not lose every single probe and you win. Even if you were to remake 5 gateways before you hold him off, all you have to do is not lose every probe.
A 6pool with no drones being brought is weak, and you can hold off 6lings with nothing but probes and still be ahead. Zerg players do it all the time 15hatching in ZvZ. Learn your worker micro.
The hardest thing you'll ever have to do is hold off 6-10 lings with every drone. How do you do that? By walling off. Again, when you're getting 6pooled, throw your build out the window and just survive. It's very doable even with a cybercore and zealots.
It's academic if you just wall gateway-forge-pylon, chrono zealots while you make a cannon. It's a win. Drone-6pools that don't do damage do not have followups. Droneless-6pools do not kill you if you have even rudimentary crisis management skills.
The only time a 6pool should ever kill a Protoss player is if they're taken by surprise and they've invested the resources they'd need to finish the wall-off.
I'll stress the follow-up thing again, since that's what you're talking mostly about. A truly all-in 6pool brings the drones and has no followup. A 6pool with lings only can be held off with minimal defensive investments (you can make a cybercore) and some decent unit control. At the end of the day versus a "non-all-in 6pool" (lol) you're still going to be economically ahead, technologically ahead, and have defender's advantage and inevitability advantage versus any roach builds.
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EPT
