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1) Sound proofing - Honestly MLG you set up a stage and you tested the audio. Did anyone stand on the stage and get the audio to be used to check if players can hear the commentators? If not, why? If you did then you realised the problem and still went ahead with day 1. Then after it is reported the players can hear the commentators the fix is to just rob the live audience of the commentators. (Though on a side note I did find it funny when Day9 would say "lets make some noise for player x! and there would be silence because they couldn't hear him) I can imagine how much enjoyment for the live fans that killed. After all this time that is the solution? To turn off the commentating for the live audience?
2) Results - People want them and at your own tournament there should be no one better for people to get them off. Put a bar that scrolls across on the bottom like NFL does if you want. Though I'm not sure how readable that would be. - See stream quality. Update your twitter more and give quality information instantly to your casters so they can update the viewers. Ideally you want people to watch your stream as it is giving them entertaitnment and results. Not browse other sites to get updates.
3) Games - Show them. Interviews, replays/highlights something. Having your casters chat about inane stuff as you are giving them no content and they are trying their hardest to tread water is unprofessional. MLG you forgot the actual sport in Esport.
4) Stream - I'm confused you moved to a venue and area where you have no real knowledge really on how good or bad it is at high load. Then you wonder why the local ISP exchange fails? Wouldn't it be better to stream your stuff back to a central point, then distribute it on stable and fixed infastructure? Lessening the amount you tax the local infastructure as well as the possible downfall of the things you lug around the country or chances of it being set up poorly/damaged?
5) Highlights - This was an excellent idea. It ties in with point 2. Why not have a 5 min recap of a series. Get someone to watch it and pick up key build orders and the fights. Give that info to the casters then do the pre cut video of the game to show the viewers roughly what went down. You don't have to do this for every game. But high interest and later games in the tournament is a must almost. Hell you can reuse/recap that kind of thing every hour or two, just add in some new verbal updates on the list. Commentators can even talk about these short series segments as a player is setting up to show them off. You just need one person who knows about the game to told to trim out the key parts and give a brief overview.
6) Cut to games - Why can't you put a spectator into each game that is started? Or even just 2 games or so at once. Then if the main game ends or has a downtime you can get someone to sit down and use the spectator to show the other game while the commentators cast it. No that isn't ideal as the commentators don't have full control but honestly it is better than them sitting there going "I wonder how the game with player x and y is doing"
I could go into showing the players more and interviews ect. But that is polishing a product that is already good. What we have with MLG currently is a product that is very poor and should focus on the content they are giving atm rather than trying to polish what they have to a spiffy shine.
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Why are people so upset by the 'scripted' apology. If you want to see Sundance's emotional response to the problems check out his Twitter. Writing down what he wanted to say first makes perfect sense, there'd have been even more of an outcry if he'd somehow messed up his live, unscripted apology.
By scripted I don't mean he wrote down what he wanted to say first; there is nothing wrong with that and anyone in his position would do that. By scripted I mean it sounded like it came from a template for corporate apologies and was not personalized or targeted to his audience in any way. However on the list of grievances about MLG I posted that is very very minor and I would prefer not to dwell on that point, if they didn't have so many screw ups there would be no need for an apology scripted or otherwise.
As far as being constructive I understand what you are saying but unless MLG tells us specifically why they habitually start broadcasts hours late and fill the majority of their stream time with dead air and casters bullshitting I can't offer them a solution only point out the issue and that they have made no discernible effort to correct it in years of broadcasting PC games (I don't watch the console stuff so I do not have a valid opinion on the production of those streams). Also I think the fact even with day 1 being terrible MLG did not offer refunds until day 2 was even worse speaks volumes and deserves a response.
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On April 05 2011 03:06 Silkath wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 02:57 MapleFractal wrote:
Thanks for typing that out for me ^_^ was typing up a response that looked a lot like this. Looks like you said most of what I had wanted too. It's really sad and imo bad for e-sports to have MLG being the only large NA SC2 event that is not played completely/mostly on the internet. I feel so bad for first time viewers and the people who were blatantly ripped off and fed a scripted apology only after 2 days of complete and utter failure. Thanks MLG for setting E-sports back in NA.... again...
Why are people so upset by the 'scripted' apology. If you want to see Sundance's emotional response to the problems check out his Twitter. Writing down what he wanted to say first makes perfect sense, there'd have been even more of an outcry if he'd somehow messed up his live, unscripted apology.
Because it took them two days to finally admit they are doing a piss poor job, Sundance couldnt event read a piece of paper without screwing it up (an apology that i garentee he didn't even write himself), MLG staff for 3 days straight NUKED their forums or any sort of criticism, constructive or not. If you have followed MLG for more then just this event and a few ones last year for SC2, you would know this is a common and almost standard of MLG to provide a shit service that they charge money for, dick it up and go "opps, dont worry were working on it .... " When i get my car washed and the guy doe's a piss poor job on it, do i pay him and say " hey good try but you need to wash my rims next time" and drive away ... absolutely not, I make the guy do his damn job. MLG deserves to get shit on from now until they get their act together. Give your head a shake Silkath and wake up. If you paid for that service you were ripped off and feed a line of crap to compensate.
MLG has been getting this sort of feed back from their viewers long before SC2 was ever on their line up, it's about time that a community is up in arms about it. Maybe it finally opens their eyes to the reputation they are getting/ have of being nothing but a sub-par traveling tournament, always second to IEM/GSL and hopefully NASL.
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Last year I watched a bunch of the Halo 3 broadcasts for one event (Columbus maybe?) and I remember noticing something really cool I've been disappointed not to see implemented since then for SC2: when the casters were taking a break the stream continued showing matches without commentary. This was asked for many many times in the TL LR thread; I get that showing players warming up isn't feasible. However, is it feasible to show player view for in-game? We're getting replays apparently anyway so it's not like this gives anything away... assuming we have some sort of booth/block so players can't eavesdrop.
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I cannt believe the people who payed money and travelled there didnt get to hear the commentators, just put the players in a different room or somewhere else! You dont need booths or noise cancelling headphones or whatnot, just separate them
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Most of the obvious flaws have already been fleshed out but I'd like to add..
Have information more readily available.
It's quite a joke that your commentators, you know the ones informing the public on the results and status of your tournament, have to wait around and get updates on the games via teamliquid's twitter. I mean that's just bad.
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As always with MLGs, an easy to find, regularly updated bracket/result page is all I ask. I followed most matches results through the TL twitter because it is impossible to find up to date results on the MLG page.
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I remember at one MLG there was a break where they were either intentionally or accidentally showing a shot that showed Tyler's screen as well as keyboard. It was a great way to fill the time between games.
If they aren't going to set up multiple computers for casting (a la Khaldor, per Jibba), they should absolutely do this so the SC2 community doesn't switch over entirely to Eagles. It's really a shame that for a tourney with so many games played, so few are broadcasted.
Also, their stream quality is pretty bad. LQ was filthy, HQ was rough around the edges...
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On April 05 2011 03:14 Woshie wrote:
4) Stream - I'm confused you moved to a venue and area where you have no real knowledge really on how good or bad it is at high load. Then you wonder why the local ISP exchange fails? Wouldn't it be better to stream your stuff back to a central point, then distribute it on stable and fixed infastructure? Lessening the amount you tax the local infastructure as well as the possible downfall of the things you lug around the country or chances of it being set up poorly/damaged?
Can anyone confirm this was actually the setup at MLG? As in, do they carry their streaming servers with them and hope to get enough bandwidth to stream to hundreds of thousands of people? This doesn't sound right, and if it is, whoever thought of that should get fired ASAP as they have no business in esports.
There are dozens of companies that are specialized in streaming video to hundreds of thousands of viewers, why do they not handle MLG's stream? The multicasting technology exists, it's fairly cheap (cheaper than using your own equipment/bandwidth) and it WORKS.
Streaming doesn't require that much bandwidth, there should have been plenty of backup options (many OTA options, satellite) to have 1 stream per game going to any streaming partner without taxing the local infrastructure.
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On April 05 2011 03:47 MasterJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 03:14 Woshie wrote:
4) Stream - I'm confused you moved to a venue and area where you have no real knowledge really on how good or bad it is at high load. Then you wonder why the local ISP exchange fails? Wouldn't it be better to stream your stuff back to a central point, then distribute it on stable and fixed infastructure? Lessening the amount you tax the local infastructure as well as the possible downfall of the things you lug around the country or chances of it being set up poorly/damaged?
Can anyone confirm this was actually the setup at MLG? As in, do they carry their streaming servers with them and hope to get enough bandwidth to stream to hundreds of thousands of people? This doesn't sound right, and if it is, whoever thought of that should get fired ASAP as they have no business in esports. There are dozens of companies that are specialized in streaming video to hundreds of thousands of viewers, why do they not handle MLG's stream? The multicasting technology exists, it's fairly cheap (cheaper than using your own equipment/bandwidth) and it WORKS. Streaming doesn't require that much bandwidth, there should have been plenty of backup options (many OTA options, satellite) to have 1 stream per game going to any streaming partner without taxing the local infrastructure.
From what I understand, half the issue was getting the feed OUT of the venue. Even with one of those streaming companies they need to get the feed
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On April 05 2011 03:47 MasterJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 03:14 Woshie wrote:
4) Stream - I'm confused you moved to a venue and area where you have no real knowledge really on how good or bad it is at high load. Then you wonder why the local ISP exchange fails? Wouldn't it be better to stream your stuff back to a central point, then distribute it on stable and fixed infastructure? Lessening the amount you tax the local infastructure as well as the possible downfall of the things you lug around the country or chances of it being set up poorly/damaged?
Can anyone confirm this was actually the setup at MLG? As in, do they carry their streaming servers with them and hope to get enough bandwidth to stream to hundreds of thousands of people? This doesn't sound right, and if it is, whoever thought of that should get fired ASAP as they have no business in esports.
I'm pretty sure they aren't bringing their own servers to the event. I recall Sundance mentioning on SOTG that the upstream on events is usually lousy, which would further imply that they are just streaming one stream out which is then relayed by Akamai.
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1. Scheduling: I've watched every MLG since SC was featured. I think that every single starting broadcast was delayed by at least an hour, with the majority being over an hour and a half late. This is a terrible way to start off a weekend event.
2. Planning: I find it hard to understand why MLG couldn't better anticipate the SC2 viewer numbers. They've partnered (at least somewhat) with GOMTV, who should be able to provide the numbers they get for their live broadcasts. The time zone difference certainly can cause some variance, but nothing that should be particularly surprising. If it was the Black Ops viewers showing up unexpectedly it might be more understandable, but I highly doubt that was the case. I'm guessing the Halo:Reach numbers weren't exponentially higher than they've always been for the Halo streams either.
3. In-house communication: Casters having to give updates they've recieved over twitter frorm fans in attendence of the event is pretty ridiculous. Get more staff (like you hired for your front desk, booths, etc), and get either people in the game observing, or at the very least in communication with the referees, and get updates to the hosts immediately.
4.. External communication: Give reasonable expectations to the viewers during the technical difficulties. The Stream will return momentarily lasting for 40 minutes is not reasonable. Update the brackets on the website with accurate information faster, and make them easier to find for viewers. Having some graphics explaining the bracket format on the live stream would be helpful as well for the more casual viewer.
5. Presentation: Booths would be great so commentary could be heard by the spectators that pay to get into the venue. Barring that, perhaps having two sets of PCs on the main stage so the set-up time wouldn't interrupt the gaming. Cast more games. Idle chit-chat by the hosts while entire series are being played is unacceptable. Casting off of a replay or two would be fine if there's a delay in the next "featured" game. You could then leave it even mid-game if it was to go to the next live match without much of an issue.
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TBH I think the main thing that would help the SC2 division of MLG would just be to hire some people on the production staff that both know something and give a fuck about Starcraft. When Sundance was on SotG he tried to make us think SC2 would be better this year because he was throwing more money at it, but in reality he knows nothing about the game or how to produce an entertaining tournament for SC2.
Seriously MLG, hire me (or any fucking TL user with a brain) and I would do a 100x better job producing the tournament than some guy from the Halo staff that drew the short straw and had to do SC2 for Dallas.
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On April 05 2011 03:55 svperstar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2011 03:47 MasterJack wrote:On April 05 2011 03:14 Woshie wrote:
4) Stream - I'm confused you moved to a venue and area where you have no real knowledge really on how good or bad it is at high load. Then you wonder why the local ISP exchange fails? Wouldn't it be better to stream your stuff back to a central point, then distribute it on stable and fixed infastructure? Lessening the amount you tax the local infastructure as well as the possible downfall of the things you lug around the country or chances of it being set up poorly/damaged?
Can anyone confirm this was actually the setup at MLG? As in, do they carry their streaming servers with them and hope to get enough bandwidth to stream to hundreds of thousands of people? This doesn't sound right, and if it is, whoever thought of that should get fired ASAP as they have no business in esports. I'm pretty sure they aren't bringing their own servers to the event. I recall Sundance mentioning on SOTG that the upstream on events is usually lousy, which would further imply that they are just streaming one stream out which is then relayed by Akamai.
With 2 megabits of upload bandwidth you can get a decent stream going. Of course there are multiple streams and other things using the network, but I have a hard time believing a convention center can't bring even bandwidth for 250 games of SC2 and 5-6 streams.
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On April 05 2011 03:44 Johnny Yen wrote:
I remember at one MLG there was a break where they were either intentionally or accidentally showing a shot that showed Tyler's screen as well as keyboard. It was a great way to fill the time between games.
That was great. You get to see more games and how players physically play which can be quite interesting for us noobs. :D
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I watched each MLG event last year and purchased the HD stream each time. I can't say I had a tremendous amount of complaints from the home viewer experience last year however it does look like they did absolutely nothing to improve on it for this season.
I wholeheartedly agree with the OP and I am glad he took the time to write it. dacthehork, great job. I'd like to throw in my 2 cents about this as well. Whether it's nitpicking or not the guys at MLG should want to hear any criticism on ways to improve so I hope they take what I say from a professional perspective. You will never get more valuable feedback on your event than from this very thread. We are your core audience and we care tremendously about how our game is displayed. Note: none of what I'm about to say has anything to do with the stream issues.
1) Throughout the entire event I had no idea who was still in it and who was knocked out. Tournaments need real time scoreboards that are constantly being shown to the viewers. From what I read, the in person experience wasn't any better. I had my iPad next to me on my couch the entire time to track what was going on from Twitter (which the casters did too...ugh). All MLG does is run tournaments and they haven't figured this out yet? What they need is a freaking huge Karate Kid (1980's version) style bracket so that the fans at the event know what's going on in real time, and that they can flash to the home viewers so we can also be kept in the loop. If it wasn't for Anna Prosser's twitter updates I would have been completely lost.
+ Show Spoiler +
2) MLG's website is a complete mismash of confusion. The only thing you could actually do easily on the site was find the stream (which I said I'd leave alone). This is more on my first point, but why isn't the bracket easier to find? I had to come to TL to get the bracket link...utter fail. They can just copy ESPN.com's NCAA tournament website for an example of how easily this is done?
+ Show Spoiler +
(Side Note: It's actually hilarious that they don't own the domain MLG.com (which is some cheesy law firm in New York who's traffic I'm sure goes through the roof any time there is an MLG event). This is besides the point but how much would it really cost to buy that domain from them? Hmmmm, that gives me an idea  )
3) Why not have a portable camera crew constantly going around the event showcasing what was going on? All we got were static shots of the crowd from a distance (looking very bored) There are enough breaks in the action for this to be done. Show the sponsors booths, talk to attendees, interview players, show the non-featured gaming area with live games going on...something. Blizzcon does this well. Hire Anna Prosser for god sake http://t.co/632zjRY
4) The commercials...so annoying. I'm not talking about the fact that they aren't in the least bit entertaining...they're played waaaaaaay too much. Every time I refresh the screen, new commercial. In between games, more commercials, before a new match series is about to start, more commercials. (Nitpicking here, but 2 screens behind the casters showing the sponsors...) I'm seriously considering boycotting all of the MLG sponsors simply based on the fact that they are so frustrating. I get it, they sponsor the event, but holy shit reel them in a bit.
5) Starting on time. I realize that there were issues this go round when it came to the stream but I remember last year it never started on time either. Have a schedule and stick to it please.
6) Sound Proof the freaking players booths. Its been brought up before so I won't well on this...but if you're going to complain that Blizzard isn't going to implement LAN all the while you won't implement a glaring issue in your production then you need to take a hard look in the mirror.
7) This is my personal opinion here but JP McDaniel does not belong on stage with DJ Wheat and/or Day9...ever. Husky and HD were great last year, why weren't they included? Wheat and Day9 did an amazing job of BSing through all the downtime, game drops and freezes, but the second you put JP up there the mood changes from fun to meh. Wheat is a professional broadcaster and Sean is semi-pro (student) with the skills and experience of a professional. JP is an awkward podcast host who looks more uncomfortable and unconfident on camera than he does transitioning from one topic to the next on SOTG. If you can't afford Anna to do the portable camera crew work then just make it JP's full time duty if you absolutely must keep him as an employee.
I'm going to MLG Columbus, and I hope to god they fix some of these, along with the other suggestions.
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Alright, now that I have had time to let my rage cool off I will try to post something constructive in this thread but first i have a question. Who is paying the people who post in the mlg feedback thread?
"I really don't understand the huge uproar over this. People calling the event a failure because the stream went down; are you serious? MLG is in the business of running video game tournaments and they do a great job of it. They go above and beyond by allowing those who want to to watch the tournament streamed online for free. They make no money off the free streams, and very little I'm sure for the HQ stream but they do it anyway to try and please their fans. The streams are in essence the cherry on top.
So they aren't working this tournament, so what. Those that paid money will get it refunded, and the rest have no out of pocket cost to speak of. MLG gains nothing and the community loses nothing other than wasting an afternoon sitting in front of your computer watching a tournament that will be put online game by game in a couple weeks/months.
Stop complaining, get on with your lives."
from http://forums.majorleaguegaming.com/topic/221649-mlg-addresses-site-stability-issues/page__st__160
Is this really what the halo community thinks? No wonder our communities don't mesh well.
Now onto the contructive part:
1. In my opinion they need to dump octoshape and partner with JTV who has proven they are really into esports or ustream or something reliable and find some other solution for running their ads.
2. Fire everyone in your production department. I am not joking. Whoever was in charge of the SC2 production should never have a job in esports or god forbid real sports ever. JP does better work from his room with SC center.
3. Ask for help! There are tons of people out there who want this to go right. I am pretty sure all you have to do is swallow your pride and get some quality people to help.
4. Booths. Make it 4 so that people can get ready before it is their turn to play.
5. Be flexible. We don't want to sit and wait 45 minutes because one game finished early and another is going long for the next "scheduled match"
6. Be competitive. 10 dollars for one weekend with less games and less production value than any other sc tournament with equal or less funding is an embarrassing joke.
7. Realize who we are. The Starcraft community is not the console FPS community. We are older. We are more demanding. We know what good tournaments look like and thus we have higher expectations. We bring more diversity more exposure and more money than the other games you host. Plan accordingly.
8. Realize you have competition that is going to destroy you if your next event doesn't run like a well oiled machine. You have set the bar very low for NASL as well as IPL. You will not only lose viewers but also players to these leagues with another sub par showing.
tl;dr MLG's monopoly on NA SC2 is about to end and if they don't get it perfect for their next event they might as well drop SC2 from their circuit.
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On April 05 2011 03:21 Duravi wrote:Show nested quote +Why are people so upset by the 'scripted' apology. If you want to see Sundance's emotional response to the problems check out his Twitter. Writing down what he wanted to say first makes perfect sense, there'd have been even more of an outcry if he'd somehow messed up his live, unscripted apology. By scripted I don't mean he wrote down what he wanted to say first; there is nothing wrong with that and anyone in his position would do that. By scripted I mean it sounded like it came from a template for corporate apologies and was not personalized or targeted to his audience in any way. However on the list of grievances about MLG I posted that is very very minor and I would prefer not to dwell on that point, if they didn't have so many screw ups there would be no need for an apology scripted or otherwise.
By scripted apology do you mean this one? Because I actually think this sounds good..
As for changes - obviously the stream was awful but that has been addressed over and over.
-The need for sound proofing is unbelievable, the casters do a great job and the live audience deserve to be able to hear them. I saw Naniwa wearing huge industrial looking ear defenders in the final, why was this not done throughout? Especially inControl who was clearly using ear buds so he could hear the crowd while on the mainstage. Booths would obviously be the best, but I don't think we can expect those any time soon.
-To all of you calling out JP, I actually think he is very good at what he does. He was especially good at the interviews of the players afterwards, I wish they had done more of those because not only would it have killed time between players setting up on the mainstage but it brings really interesting insight into the players mindset and ideas throughout the game. IEM did it, MLG can do it.
-Quicker updates. I understand we can't see all the games but it would be great to be updated, or atleast mentions in the live blog that round X had been updated on the bracket.
These are the most pressing ones for me. I have no doubt that they will get sorted in some way however. MLG proved that they are listening to the community this year with the setup for the first event, if only it had gone to plan.
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I'm not going to list all of my irritations, mainly because they've all been listed already. I will just ring in and agree, so hopefully somebody at MLG understands that the quality of this tournament, and I'm not talking about the stream up/down issues, was totally unacceptable. If you don't know what you need to do, I would strongly advise you to either go watch the GSL or any TV broadcast sporting event and take notes.
Also, I was planning to order an HQ stream until I found out that Octoshape is required. This is a non-starter for me and quite a few others, and frankly, there's no reason for it. Yes, I know it's really awesome to force your paying customers into a P2P service and all, but there are plenty of streaming services out there that can handle 100k+ viewers, in HQ, without forcing me to install software on my computer or use my upstream bandwidth.
Honestly hope somebody takes all this seriously and the next MLG is badass (and without octoshape so I can order an HD stream).
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Honestly, I was pretty happy initially with what changes MLG had made and if the event's excecution had been good I think I would have been pretty happy overall.
The one serious gripe I would have (well maybe 2) is the information problem mentioned earlier. Your commentators should have a better sense or atleast be able to give us a better summary about the games from time to time and there should be a way to jump into some series. Understandably, the commentators need small breaks between games and it's not profession to randomly jump into series usually, but some matches such as TLO incontrol are highlight events.
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