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On March 16 2011 18:33 urashimakt wrote:
I'm against restricting invites based on race, or anything that can be interpreted as tied to a race (such as skill level or ability to speak English), but honestly if I tuned into the NASL and half of the players were speaking non-English I'd be frustrated. If NASL is truly going for entertainment value for a primarily North American audience, I feel that they should require the ability to speak English understandably. I don't think anything else should really factor in.
Translators don't cut it, no matter how awesome John has proved they can be.
Hmm if I was an American I would have been insulted by that :p Subtitles or translations arent good enough?
That aside, you are right... jinro, huk and idra should have been forced to learn Korean or get disqualified. Cuz they obviously have no korean fans not being able to speak Korean.... or???
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NASL should just do what GSL does: if you want to play, come live in a foreign country, away from your family and friends, where no-one speaks your language. Point is, by being primarily online, NASL is already way more open to foreign competition than GSL. 'Nuff said.
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That's stupid in general.
1. You'd alienate an entire and major scene of starcraft, so that when we really want the tip top best players, they could just go "no, you're a fucking dick enjoy your shit tourny". This is an open tourny, you have Euro players, you have NA players and you SHOULD have Kor players as well. As for them being insular, what would happen if an SC player that doesn't speak english in general does well? Does this random prejudice stick to them as well? or is it only the koreans?
2. The quality of the tournament it'self would be called into question. "Oh yea, the NASL that one tourny that doesnt allow koreans cuz whites all know koreans are just going to own them" What happened to training hard and winning your games like you're supposed to? Why would anyone want to watch NASL beyond their "favorite player playing"? If a tournament of this size isn't representative of global talent then why on earth would anyone take it seriously?
3. It would be bad for the continued growth of this industry. This thing we call esports relies on all parties to be amicable and to get along. Could you imagine the backlash of netizens in Korea when they found out that their favorite players were BANNED from playing in a tournament? When has that ever happened? What kind of precedent would that set? Where do you draw the line from there? Do EU Tournys also do the same? Do all tournaments ban koreans and stifle their way of life for the simple fact that US/EU players simply cant keep up with a work regimen and schedule?
Or is this just greed coming up from players that know they cant compete at a global level?
Look at the TSL, how PUMPED are you to see every single one of your favorite players from the scrappy qualifer players that punched past thousands of fellow players to be given a slot to play against the worlds best? When else besides WCG are you going to see SC2 played THIS globally? Taking that away from the NASL would do nothing but harm the tournament it'self. Besides, when people get shown exactly where they stand who knows, maybe they'll train harder, maybe koreans might branch out and start talking to the foreign community vs being entirely insular. Which so far from BW, they haven't needed us in the slightest, maybe now. They might.
TLDR: Dividing out sc2 players based on region and effort put into the game is not only the height of stupidity but generates a slippery slope in which there can be no upside for the tournament scene globally.
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Indeed, excluding players just because they show too much dedication and put too much effort into the sport is not good. I mean, take a look at the korean scene, that's how you want the western scene to be! What signal do you give to the up and rising players in the western world by excluding them? "Oh hey, don't put too much effort into our sport or else we'll exclude you from all the tournaments."?
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On March 16 2011 18:14 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 18:12 nihlon wrote:
Most of the bigger soccer leagues in the world have limits on how many foreigners there can be on a team. Just saying everything should be open without limits may sound good in theory but in practise there is many reasons why that might not be the best idea. Really? That's new to me. O.o Can you tell me what soccer leagues?
yeah, he definetely havent seen Arsenal line-up for the past couple of years (ironically they also havent won anything in the same time frame :D)
Most of major football club is like 50%+ 'foreigner' anyway since in EU anybody can work anywhere in Europe
as for the NASL, I kinda agree that the Best Korean should be there. But hopefully those top tier player will voluntarily give way to the second tier to make a name for their selves
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On March 16 2011 18:14 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 18:12 nihlon wrote:
Most of the bigger soccer leagues in the world have limits on how many foreigners there can be on a team. Just saying everything should be open without limits may sound good in theory but in practise there is many reasons why that might not be the best idea. Really? That's new to me. O.o Can you tell me what soccer leagues?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6+5_rule
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I know that that's not what the NASL is looking for, but I'd rather have the top 50 players worldwide in a league then top 45 foreigners and 5 koreans.
Nationalism is always bad. Nationality does not (or better: should not) play ANY role
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Why not having a certain number of spot for each scene ? Basically you 3 or 4 scene, America / EU / Asia / Korea.
If you want to have a maximum of viewer, save a certain nomber of spot for each scene, with something like a 4/4/1/1 ratio (8 EU/US for 1 korean and 1 Asia, which is overall 5 KOR, 5 Asia, 20 American & 20 Euro players ?). That's just an exemple.
It's fair and easy to justify.
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I'd say 20 Americans, 20 Europeans and 10 Asians would be a good ratio.
Sure, if it goes by skill than there would have to be like 35 Asians, 10 Europeans and 5 Americans, but people need to be interested in the players, and i don't know if there's anything interesting in most korean players apart from their skill. I think for the majority of european and american viewers some guys like InControl or Socke are just more intersting than Genius or Ace.
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What is the goal of the NASL? To be competitive, to be entertaining or a mix of both?
If they want the best competition, invite the best players. It might mean only 10-15 player in the tournament would be non-korean.
If they want entertainment, then only invite people who speak enough english to pass by.
If they want a mix of both, then invite a few koreans (probably those with the best english) and then invite the best non-koreans.
That is my opinion.
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To me the answer is simple. As soon as we have that massiv of a prize pool, you as a competitive player should expect to play against the very best of the world, and look forward to it. Isn't that what competition is all about? Isn't that the excitement behind it?
For me it is. Skill over everything.
For everything else I refer to Jinro's post.
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yeah, i think we all agree that the invite system based on "who are the most interesting players" is not the ideal way to do this. i mean, i get what the NASL is trying to do, i think everybody does, but i don't think most people are that much into background stroys and drama and what not, i'm certainly not. mostly when i watch gsl (or any other tournaments), i skip to the game itself and decide if i like the player based on the game, that's how people became mc/nestea/mkp/whitera/idra/jinro/huk/... fans. to exclude koreans isn't gonna generate fans, the right way would be beating them. but so, maybe it's gonna be like "yeah, ok, player xy won the NASL, whatever". i mean, imagine idra wins the NASL by mostly crushing players who wouldn't stand a chance in the code A. would this generate more idra fans? would anybody even care? i don't know, i mean, yeah, essentialy it's all about watching exciting games i guess, so i could be wrong, we'll see...
besides, korea never exclude players, no tournament did. i think to start doing so would be a step in the wrong direction for the whole community
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On March 16 2011 20:19 TigerKarl wrote:
I'd say 20 Americans, 20 Europeans and 10 Asians would be a good ratio.
Sure, if it goes by skill than there would have to be like 35 Asians, 10 Europeans and 5 Americans, but people need to be interested in the players, and i don't know if there's anything interesting in most korean players apart from their skill. I think for the majority of european and american viewers some guys like InControl or Socke are just more intersting than Genius or Ace.
I might be the only one, but im way more interested in the korean code A players then the EU/US top players. Im just more interested in skills then what language they speak or what color their skin are.
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I have the same opinion as an e-sports fan that I have as a regular sports fan. Regardless of how good they are, the language barrier makes it harder to be a fan of them. For example, my Detroit Tigers have had great hispanic players like Cabrera, Ordonez, and Guillen. You know who decimates them in fan following? Brandon Inge, a decent player, but nowhere near their caliber. It's the same story with the Red Wings. The Wings have had great European players like Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Franzen and Lidstrom. You know who decimates them in fan following to this day? Steve Yzerman, who has been retired for 5 years, and Bob Probert, who was never more than an enforcer.
I think it will be the same with Starcraft. Players who don't speak your language(or at least very well) are harder to relate to, and as a result, are harder to be a fan of.
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Doesn't limiting the number of koreans equal hand picking who is going to win the tournament? oh.. wait... Idra and Jinro have proven otherwise... Limiting would imo be stupid. Given the right amount of incitament(money), foreigners can compete with the koreans. Let them. On hometurf nonetheless
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Koreans should be able to join in of course.
But that's not the point. The point is that at the moment there will be no NASL. Or at least no video streaming. Blizzard did not give permission to the NASL to stream their matches. Looks like their deal with gom.tv prevents them from other stuff that may be even more lucrative..
I heard this two days ago on a livestream. The story is actually quite wicked (how the NASL started and where the money comes from). But I'll spare these details.
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Reading this thread reminds me of a problem that they have on the LPGA tour. Over there, its mostly South Koreans winning most of the golf tournaments thees days, and due to a lack of English skills, there isn't as much interest in these players because their personalities don't come across.
I personally don't care about players personalities, I just want to see the best players.
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On March 16 2011 21:22 Morphs wrote:
Koreans should be able to join in of course.
But that's not the point. The point is that at the moment there will be no NASL. Or at least no video streaming. Blizzard did not give permission to the NASL to stream their matches. Looks like their deal with gom.tv prevents them from other stuff that may be even more lucrative..
I heard this two days ago on a livestream. The story is actually quite wicked (how the NASL started and where the money comes from). But I'll spare these details.
WTF?
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On March 16 2011 21:22 Morphs wrote:
Koreans should be able to join in of course.
But that's not the point. The point is that at the moment there will be no NASL. Or at least no video streaming. Blizzard did not give permission to the NASL to stream their matches. Looks like their deal with gom.tv prevents them from other stuff that may be even more lucrative..
I heard this two days ago on a livestream. The story is actually quite wicked (how the NASL started and where the money comes from). But I'll spare these details.
umm... please go on... elaborate
sources?
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NASL needs both EU and Korean players, the quality of American players right now is rather sad. In order to have top players and good matches invites are needed to be send to Korea in my opinion.
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EPT
