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I agree with motbob on restricting or barring koreans from participating in the tournament. I am interested in the foreigner scene, and if I wanted to watch the korean scene I would watch the GSL.
Also, allowing koreans into the tournament (especially in the first few tournies) has a chance of inhibiting the growth of the foreigner scene at the top levels. There is one reason that Koreans are dominating SC2 right now, and that reason is that the GSL provides them with a massive carrot on a stick to play and play a lot. The NASL can be that carrot for the foreigner scene, but if it ends up being a ton of koreans again, that does very little towards fostering growth of the foreigner SC2 scene.
I also fear as though SC2 will not have staying power in korea. Aside from the GSL, there are no other tournaments, and every time we see numbers for gameplay at large SC2 seems to be way down the list. Because of this I feel its even more important to establish the foreigner scene before things could die out in korea.
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i think the foreigners getting their asses kicked by a bunch of koreans for their first ever tourney would be enough motivation for them to start working as hard as possible, form pro houses, and really get to the training level needed to compete with them.
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I'd be fine with 10, 12 or maybe 15 Koreans in the first season, but I hope it doesn't need to be hard-capped by a rule.
Up to now there are only 6 applications it seems.
Unlike many other people here, I don't agree players can easily be ranked by skill. So many people seem to think they have the undisputable knowledge about players skills compared to each other, it's ridculous. Whenever I see someone post here or on irc post something like
x > y > z > a > b > c
about top players, I feel the wish to impose physical violence. Clearly a month ago loads of people would've said MVP is easily top 3 in the world. Guess what, now he's code A. Does this mean he is not top 16 anymore? Don't think so. People need to realize that even though somebody dominated someone else on some day in some BO5, 2 weeks later things can go the other way, hell, even on the next day.
Jinro beat MC, Tyler beat Jinro. Well, guess Tyler is easily the best Protoss in the world.
Some people need to stop thinking they can evaluate each and every player by looking at a handful of games.
That being said, this is also the reason why in other sports people/teams either go through a qualification process (which will party be the case after the 1st season), or they will get invited on achievements in the past.
Same logic applies here; you can't just say all of Code A is clearly superior to any EU/US player, only because Ace and Moon dominated IEM.
The other side of the coin is, Top and Inca both were at dreamhack and were beaten. Both play Code S next season. Does this take away any credit from the players or the Code S status? No. But it should tell you that one tournament isn't everything and that things can change quickly.
Let everyone send in their applications and then consider them based on tournaments they played in, and things like MLG, IEM, Dreamhack, etc should not be seen as some second-level competitions with scrubs being able to perform well in.
And even though I obviously want Koreans in the NASL, to those people saying they wouldn't watch it if there were not certain high level Koreans in there need to chill.
So you are not planning on following MLG? Only followed the IEM Finals because of the Asian invites?
I can say I've followed the IEM over GSL those days, and would've without the invites as well.
And I am really looking forward to MLG again.
Cheers,
JD
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A good example of a player getting owned and then motivated would be QXC. He said that he got owned by huk at assembly and now he knows where he needs to be in skill. People would realize, if the koreans did own them, that they would need to step it up. If they are unmotivated after that then they need 2 quit the competitive scene.
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On March 16 2011 19:43 btx0 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 18:14 JustPassingBy wrote:On March 16 2011 18:12 nihlon wrote:
Most of the bigger soccer leagues in the world have limits on how many foreigners there can be on a team. Just saying everything should be open without limits may sound good in theory but in practise there is many reasons why that might not be the best idea. Really? That's new to me. O.o Can you tell me what soccer leagues? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6+5_rule
Well, doesn't that prove nihlon's post wrong who claims that such rules are already in use in "most of the bigger soccer leagues"?
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On March 16 2011 21:21 Jerome wrote:
Doesn't limiting the number of koreans equal hand picking who is going to win the tournament? oh.. wait... Idra and Jinro have proven otherwise... Limiting would imo be stupid. Given the right amount of incitament(money), foreigners can compete with the koreans. Let them. On hometurf nonetheless
Giving that the first season is a invitational you have to put some sort of limit in one way or another. Or do you propose they invite only Korean based player for the first season?
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On March 16 2011 21:35 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 19:43 btx0 wrote:On March 16 2011 18:14 JustPassingBy wrote:On March 16 2011 18:12 nihlon wrote:
Most of the bigger soccer leagues in the world have limits on how many foreigners there can be on a team. Just saying everything should be open without limits may sound good in theory but in practise there is many reasons why that might not be the best idea. Really? That's new to me. O.o Can you tell me what soccer leagues? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6+5_rule Well, doesn't that prove nihlon's post wrong who claims that such rules are already in use in "most of the bigger soccer leagues"?
If it doesn't prove my post wrong then I won't need to elaborate then. If you don't believe me do some googling yourself. If you don't you don't.
Maybe a more accurate statement should have been "have or had" since some don't have the rules anymore but the point still stands.
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Oh my god, how come so many people voted for the worst option ??
We already have GSL with all the best players in the world fighting in one tournament.
If we want to grow e-sports in NA and EU, we need some top koreans in the tournament, I think 5 is right number. E-Sports will grow with hype and Hype will come when an underdog foreigner will defeat a top korean player.
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I think a limit based on race/region is a bad idea, although a easy way to "level" the field is just have all games played on the NA servers (hence: North American Star League). Sure, it's not as big of a disadvantage as having to move here, but it's better than nothing.
While the language factor bugs me a bit (my favorite post-game interviews are with foreigners because the flow of conversation is just easier and better), because there is post-production (I think?), subtitles could be added (and I think it would be better than a translator). In real sports, people want to see the best competition. I don't see why that should change for e-Sports.
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Personally I'd like to see the same system for Koreans in NASL as for foreigners in GSL.
First of all I'd like if they signed up instead of being asked personally, as I'd rather see people really wanting to go to the tournament, rather than shrugging and going all like "aight, whatever".
The pro Koreans are imo vastly superior to the pro NA / EU players, so it takes away a little of the excitement. Then again it's always nice seeing some really stellar play.
In my opinion the best thing would be to not make any difference of nationality, and let any amount of Koreans in, provided that they actually make the effort to sign up for it.
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On March 16 2011 21:22 Morphs wrote:
Koreans should be able to join in of course.
But that's not the point. The point is that at the moment there will be no NASL. Or at least no video streaming. Blizzard did not give permission to the NASL to stream their matches. Looks like their deal with gom.tv prevents them from other stuff that may be even more lucrative..
I heard this two days ago on a livestream. The story is actually quite wicked (how the NASL started and where the money comes from). But I'll spare these details.
If u say a u must say b 
Please elaborate
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Canada13389 Posts
On March 16 2011 15:37 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 14:21 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2011 14:07 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:56 ZeromuS wrote:On March 16 2011 13:42 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:35 ZeromuS wrote:
I for one just don't want to see NASL be GSL Alternate. I know foreigners went to GSL for the same reasons Koreans want to come to NASL but IMO if we allow all koreans who want in in then we won't really see SC2 grow in NA and we won't foster a higher level of skill among the players. Part of the reason for the NASL is to see NA players get more exposure and improve their overall skill by growing esports. We can't do that if the league is filled with top koreans who dominate and become the majority of the NASL players over time.
I feel that Korean players whose only interest isn't in winning some money and learning 5 words in englishshould be invited .
I mean foreigners go to Korea to play in a major tournament, maybe win some money, explore a new country but most importantly grow as players. I don't feel that Koreans can come to NA to grow as players tbh, to me its more of a cash grab since they expect to win. I mean someone like Cella who interacts with the NA community and the foreigner scene is cool as he wants to help e-sports and starcraft here as well whereas someone like MOON would probably only be in it for the money unless he really makes a commitment to improving the over all skill level of the NA community and chooses to say something more than "koreans own white dudes" after winning :/ come on they made moon say that, he didnt choose to say it. I doubt he even knew what it meant he didnt even pronounce it properly. Also we wont foster a higher level of skill? So by not inviting the best players in the world and having the west try to compete at the highest possible level that doesnt foster a higher level of skill among players? that doesnt even make any sense We will probably not see pro-gaming houses if the NA or EU players dont get a chance to take part in the NASL due to it being predominantly played by Koreans. Why would you as a company endorse a team like EG or FNATIC or ROOT to have them support individuals in a team house when that team will probably not get much exposure in the NASL when the market you are trying to reach is based in NA or EU. At that point why not sponsor some of the korean teams and players who take part in the NASL since that will get you more exposure. More exposure of NA players will increase the likelihood for sponsorship and team houses to get established. The team house and practice situation is IMO the main thing holding back NA and EU. Half the koreans who play sc2 would be nothing without their team and the team house is an important aspect of why they are so good. By making the sponsorship more lucrative for companies to support establised korean teams, why would they put money into the NA teams? I mean even liquid has to double up with oGs in order have its players in Korea stand a chance like Jinro and HuK. I feel IdrA is probably the exception to being solid and great by living on his own in Korea. Even then, in a team house I'm sure his play would have really improved above that which we have seen yet. I;m not saying to exclude Korean players but we really need to be careful not to invite the entire cast of the GSL to play in the NASL since to invite the "best players" would involve inviting a TON of the GSL players and GSTL players we have seen. Im not saying let it be an all korean tournament, im saying let 10 -15 MAX of the best koreans compete in the tournament i dont think anyone in this thread thinks that the NASL should be predominantly koreans as you put it, but just as their will representation fromm europe their should be representation from korea, if you have 20 players from europe and korea then thats still 30 north american players and id still be pretty hard pressed to name 30 NA players who are at that top skill level and truely deserve to be in the NASL id have an easier time if i added in a few more european players though ^^ I am ok with this position ^^im ok with representation but to do that a limit must be placed no matter how arbitrary and give preference to players with some english skills over none so they can interact more easily or get a great translator So you think that a lesser player with better english skills should be given a spot over a Better player with worse english skills =/, its about the games man, especially because its an online tournament there isnt going to be much interaction besides pictures and statisics until they get to the round of 16 offline portion, all its gonna be about in the online portion is the commentators and the games and im positive there will be a translator for the offline part (thats the NASL's job and its their fault if they dont get one) May as well let John the translator in over say Julyzerg then, is that what you would like? John the translator for NASL because apparently they should value english skills over game skills 
Note I did say some english skills :p if they can say "hello" "thank you to the fans" thats enough for me but to have someone with no english skills and have no translator or a very poor translator will make it hard to market the NASL past us hardcore SC2 fans which is what the organizers want to try to do. Furthermore, I believe some of the plans are to have interviews and the such. I don't care if its voice-over translated, translated on the spot or even subtitled and edited. I am ok with that but the key is to have good professional translations and barring that people will need to have some basic english language skills in order to help the organizers accomplish what they want to accomplish. I am not sure what extent the english skills of JulyZerg or MVP are (I've heard MC is quite good) but if I am watching something in english then it cuts to a Korean player standing there looking and feeling awkward atttempting to understand questions asked in english and replying in Korean it doesn't really scream 'professional' which is what the NASL is trying to achieve.
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I would like to see a non-korean win, top 3 = KR at IEM was very disappointing for me as a huge fan of NA/EU. Never the less, not inviting top koreans would be a bit hypocritical (as long as NASL is supposed to be a global thing). So yeah, invite them but GOGOGOGO EU/NA PLAYERS :D
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So let's just do a tournament for scrubs? What about plat only requirement for NASL so the games can be "entertaining"?
If someone want to play and he can complete all the necessary things to do it let him go. The example with IEM is rally good because there we saw 3 koreans that are basically out of top 64 in GSL that dominated the tournament. Was it boring or bad? Hell no, that was great tournament and quite a lot of the games played were really interesting.
No one will care if there is good translation for the interviews for koreans because english skills of quite some of the europian players are not that great actually.
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On March 16 2011 06:42 motbob wrote:The NASL application VODs thread is being swamped with discussion on this, so I'm making a new thread to keep the other thread on topic. The question under discussion is whether many Koreans should be invited to the NASL, and whether any Koreans invited should be "top" koreans like MC, MVP, Nestea. Here's a statement from VT|Pokebunny, who was drawing a lot of flak in the other thread. Show nested quote +Overall, I just think the games with Koreans will be less interesting. Watching several of the very best Koreans dominate while giving a polite interview without forming relationships with foreign players or fans is not something that appeals to me as an American NASL spectator. I welcome Koreans that actively participate in our scene such as Cella, as those are players who have shown their interest in the foreign scene before giant numbers of cash were thrown at them. I mean no insult to Koreans when I say that their English skills coupled with their tendency to keep to themselves will make a tournament that is IMO less entertaining for casual fans and NA diehards over the course of multiple seasons. NASL has already stated that they want to invite some Koreans, so with that in mind, here's a poll. Note that this poll assumes that the skill level of top Code A Koreans is about the same as the skill of the top foreigners, which we can assume to be true from IEM. Poll: What should the NASL organizers do?Invite the very best players in the world even if that means very few NA and EU players in the NASL (2192) 65% Invite about 5 of the very top Koreans (881) 26% Invite about 5 Code A level Koreans (208) 6% Other (post in the thread) (84) 2% 3365 total votes Your vote: What should the NASL organizers do? (Vote): Invite about 5 of the very top Koreans
(Vote): Invite about 5 Code A level Koreans
(Vote): Invite the very best players in the world even if that means very few NA and EU players in the NASL
(Vote): Other (post in the thread)
Look if the top 50 best players are korean then invite them. I mean don't tell me you cannot hype up FruitDealer no matter if he speaks english or not.
These non-koreans are scared of losing their place. I mean i seen the appilication VOD'S and well a lot of them ain't getting in.
Get better or deal with it is all i can say to non-korean ppl. And btw POKEBUNNY ain't getting in!!!
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making it on the NA server only would be a motivation for korean teams to establish teamhouses in NA and actually come to NA
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No english = no drama = no fun.
About 5 are fine tho.
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If the people behind NASL actually thinks there is a market big enough that is interested in "behind the scenes with players that can't make it to GSL but speak english in the interviews to make up for it" so to speak, they are in for a wake up call.
I understand what NASL is trying to do, that they cater to a "different audience". But as many polls do show, and I expect your viewer numbers to show the same is that there is actually only one market big enough to attract $$ in the e-sports of starcraft, and that is the market of viewers interested in seeing the best gameplay.
You get a lot of good feedback from TL and I sincerely hope that you guys look at the polls and listen to the feedback.
GL with NASL.
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First, if what I am about to post has already been said, I apologize for not having enough time or will to read 60 pages of posts
Second, invite the best players you can get a hold of! There's no need to worry about too few europeans or north americans, they might very well be beaten handily by koreans in the beginning but I am really certain the skill level of "foreigners" (none koreans) will get bumped up real quick when this kind of money is on the line. No worries.
/Gnarf
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I don't know how I truly feel about this, but my gut instinct is to agree with Pokebunny.
I do so for cultural reasons, primarily. The Korean culture of progaming is much more refined when it comes to perfecting one's ability, I think. Gaming houses are like dojos or barracks - the majority of progamers have no obligation other than to get really fucking good at Starcraft, and their entire lifestyle is centered around that. They had an architecture to use thanks to years of BW and there hasn't been a use of that model in the west yet, has there? I mean, yes, EG has a 'house' in AZ, but isn't there some creepy guy that watches porn on his huge flatscreen TV there as a room mate? @_@
That's not to say that western gamers aren't SC2 focused - but to be immersed in something, to live with all your team mates and completely gel into the competitive world is a lot different than hanging out with your friends on Skype while customing in important ways.
So... My hope, and I think the best thing for competitive SC2, is for e-sports in the west to grow and become a lifestyle like it is in Korea. The tournaments are there for the winning, but the teams are displaced and it's more like a hobby than a way of life for most of those breaking their backs to get good. The only difference between the two cultures in terms of skill is methods of practice according to those much knowledgeable than myself - I don't think that the west will ever close that gap if a bunch of dudes from Seoul are going about wrecking it up in every hemisphere. Once ROOT, Mouz and their contemporaries have their strongest players bunking together and trying to find the One True Style on the meal ticket of their sponsors, then yes, yes, yes, globalize the shit out of NASL, but until then, this should be our baby, or we're going to be eternal underdogs.
That's just my gut reaction, at least.
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EPT
