EPTOn March 16 2011 23:21 Euronyme wrote:
I don't think you understand how progaming works. You don't get money from tournaments. Sponsors are what pays your bills, not tournament wins.
GSL doesn't support full time gaming either unless you have a good sponsor as well.
I'm pretty sure none of the Liquid or EG guys have anything to do besides gaming. Sure there are more full time pro gamers in Korea than in the west, but still.. The situation is completely different from BW, where basically none in the west (AFAIK) could support a full time pro gaming life.
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On March 16 2011 23:14 Bijan wrote:
I don't think its possible that most western pros (especially North Americans) play as much as Koreans. Actually, many western "pros" shouldn't even be calling themselves that since they have day-jobs. There may be a few exceptions, but theres no way that theres enough money in western tournaments to support as extensive of a pro scene as there is in Korea. Almost every pro Korean player is in a team house, playing long hours and discussing SC with their mates.
I do agree though, our teams are starting to move in the right direction. I think its a matter of sponsorships that will decide when team houses start becoming common. The NASL will hopefully have a huge hand in expanding this. Once we get real team houses we will see the skill gap quickly shrink. And although there may still be more quality players in Korea with their established esports culture, we may actually see foreign players being considered among the best of Koreans, even perhaps surpassing them.
On March 16 2011 22:55 Euronyme wrote:
Ok so some stuff are wrong here. Most western pro gamers play just as much as koreans, the difference is that the koreans live with eachother and has the possibility to discuss tactics IRL/AFK. Actually there's been word of HuK actually practicing more than almost all of the Koreans.
The house with the creepy guy was a place Machine got to stay at when he put up an ad in a news paper or something like that. It's not a pro house by any means.
Right now I think Korea is so far ahead because their top players are actually top of the line SC:BW pro gamers. They simply have the advantage, but it will probably flatten out as westeners currently, although still in a smaller scale, are living under the same conditions as the Koreans.
For intance there's the root / fnatic team house, the liquidians in the oGs house, the EG team house etc. The future for foreigner esports is quite bright imo. If we let Koreans in the NASL, they will probably stomp the first couple of seasons, but on the other hand, westeners will improve faster, as they'll get first hand experience of what's going on on the other server.
On March 16 2011 22:40 maahes wrote:
I don't know how I truly feel about this, but my gut instinct is to agree with Pokebunny.
I do so for cultural reasons, primarily. The Korean culture of progaming is much more refined when it comes to perfecting one's ability, I think. Gaming houses are like dojos or barracks - the majority of progamers have no obligation other than to get really fucking good at Starcraft, and their entire lifestyle is centered around that. They had an architecture to use thanks to years of BW and there hasn't been a use of that model in the west yet, has there? I mean, yes, EG has a 'house' in AZ, but isn't there some creepy guy that watches porn on his huge flatscreen TV there as a room mate? @_@
That's not to say that western gamers aren't SC2 focused - but to be immersed in something, to live with all your team mates and completely gel into the competitive world is a lot different than hanging out with your friends on Skype while customing in important ways.
So... My hope, and I think the best thing for competitive SC2, is for e-sports in the west to grow and become a lifestyle like it is in Korea. The tournaments are there for the winning, but the teams are displaced and it's more like a hobby than a way of life for most of those breaking their backs to get good. The only difference between the two cultures in terms of skill is methods of practice according to those much knowledgeable than myself - I don't think that the west will ever close that gap if a bunch of dudes from Seoul are going about wrecking it up in every hemisphere. Once ROOT, Mouz and their contemporaries have their strongest players bunking together and trying to find the One True Style on the meal ticket of their sponsors, then yes, yes, yes, globalize the shit out of NASL, but until then, this should be our baby, or we're going to be eternal underdogs.
That's just my gut reaction, at least.
I don't know how I truly feel about this, but my gut instinct is to agree with Pokebunny.
I do so for cultural reasons, primarily. The Korean culture of progaming is much more refined when it comes to perfecting one's ability, I think. Gaming houses are like dojos or barracks - the majority of progamers have no obligation other than to get really fucking good at Starcraft, and their entire lifestyle is centered around that. They had an architecture to use thanks to years of BW and there hasn't been a use of that model in the west yet, has there? I mean, yes, EG has a 'house' in AZ, but isn't there some creepy guy that watches porn on his huge flatscreen TV there as a room mate? @_@
That's not to say that western gamers aren't SC2 focused - but to be immersed in something, to live with all your team mates and completely gel into the competitive world is a lot different than hanging out with your friends on Skype while customing in important ways.
So... My hope, and I think the best thing for competitive SC2, is for e-sports in the west to grow and become a lifestyle like it is in Korea. The tournaments are there for the winning, but the teams are displaced and it's more like a hobby than a way of life for most of those breaking their backs to get good. The only difference between the two cultures in terms of skill is methods of practice according to those much knowledgeable than myself - I don't think that the west will ever close that gap if a bunch of dudes from Seoul are going about wrecking it up in every hemisphere. Once ROOT, Mouz and their contemporaries have their strongest players bunking together and trying to find the One True Style on the meal ticket of their sponsors, then yes, yes, yes, globalize the shit out of NASL, but until then, this should be our baby, or we're going to be eternal underdogs.
That's just my gut reaction, at least.
Ok so some stuff are wrong here. Most western pro gamers play just as much as koreans, the difference is that the koreans live with eachother and has the possibility to discuss tactics IRL/AFK. Actually there's been word of HuK actually practicing more than almost all of the Koreans.
The house with the creepy guy was a place Machine got to stay at when he put up an ad in a news paper or something like that. It's not a pro house by any means.
Right now I think Korea is so far ahead because their top players are actually top of the line SC:BW pro gamers. They simply have the advantage, but it will probably flatten out as westeners currently, although still in a smaller scale, are living under the same conditions as the Koreans.
For intance there's the root / fnatic team house, the liquidians in the oGs house, the EG team house etc. The future for foreigner esports is quite bright imo. If we let Koreans in the NASL, they will probably stomp the first couple of seasons, but on the other hand, westeners will improve faster, as they'll get first hand experience of what's going on on the other server.
I don't think its possible that most western pros (especially North Americans) play as much as Koreans. Actually, many western "pros" shouldn't even be calling themselves that since they have day-jobs. There may be a few exceptions, but theres no way that theres enough money in western tournaments to support as extensive of a pro scene as there is in Korea. Almost every pro Korean player is in a team house, playing long hours and discussing SC with their mates.
I do agree though, our teams are starting to move in the right direction. I think its a matter of sponsorships that will decide when team houses start becoming common. The NASL will hopefully have a huge hand in expanding this. Once we get real team houses we will see the skill gap quickly shrink. And although there may still be more quality players in Korea with their established esports culture, we may actually see foreign players being considered among the best of Koreans, even perhaps surpassing them.
I don't think you understand how progaming works. You don't get money from tournaments. Sponsors are what pays your bills, not tournament wins.
GSL doesn't support full time gaming either unless you have a good sponsor as well.
I'm pretty sure none of the Liquid or EG guys have anything to do besides gaming. Sure there are more full time pro gamers in Korea than in the west, but still.. The situation is completely different from BW, where basically none in the west (AFAIK) could support a full time pro gaming life.
I thought thats what I said...? No?
