|
On March 17 2011 00:07 Rob28 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 23:50 Consolidate wrote:On March 16 2011 23:45 Rob28 wrote:
Two options IMO:
1) Invite any Koreans who want in, and Europeans, and change the name of the organization.
2) Invite only members of North American countries, thus confirming it is the North American league. Yeah... Your opinion is severely questionable. Do you realise that 'North American' can be a reference to the league's location right? Why does the name matter so much to you anyway? And generally any organization that includes a place in it's name has membership confined to that place. Find me an example of one where the majority of members are from outside the location that the name specifically refers to (as it would be were NASL to have unrestricted access by Korean gamers), and I'll retract my statement. Hm, just one and you'll retract your statement?
The German Table Tennis League has more non-Germans playing in it than Germans.
On March 17 2011 00:14 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 00:09 Bobster wrote:On March 16 2011 23:46 brentsen wrote:
I'm kind of confused how all this will work out. Isn't the NASL supposed to start in like 3 weeks? Well, officially, the deadline for applications has already expired. But we're still getting some more applications right now, so either the NASL extended the deadline or the people uploading them were late getting them out there. Following the originally planned deadlines, players will be informed whether they made the NASL privately in two days. 4 days later (on the 22nd), the NASL will start to unveil the participants to us. Oh god if they actually exclude players cause they didn't make a silly video that'll be heartbreaking. Well, you have to apply for a league in order to play in it, no? If you don't register before the deadline, you can't play in a tournament. If you don't check-in before the deadline, you can't play. Rules are there for a reason, and making exceptions because of the tardiness of individual players/teams is usually a bad idea, undermining the integrity of the whole organisation.
If players who missed the deadline are truly deserving, they'll get Top 8 in the Open tournament and get in that way.
But all that said, the NASL haven't officially stated that the deadline has expired (or was extended), so there's no foul play here.
|
The koreans cant even speak english.. so no even if they r good.. hard to make a "story line" from them cause u have to translate everything they're saying. if they learn english then good.
|
On March 17 2011 00:06 Euronyme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 23:45 Rob28 wrote:
Two options IMO:
1) Invite any Koreans who want in, and Europeans, and change the name of the organization.
2) Invite only members of North American countries, thus confirming it is the North American league. Yeah and at dreamhack, only people who can hack while dreaming are allowed, and at MLG Dallas, you have to live and have been born in Dallas. lololol.
This actually made me laugh out loud!
LOL 
|
On March 17 2011 00:15 Valkola wrote:
The koreans cant even speak english.. so no even if they r good.. hard to make a "story line" from them cause u have to translate everything they're saying. if they learn english then good.
Probably a lot easier to "make a storyline" from JULYZERG than from avilo or pokebunny...
|
On March 16 2011 18:39 TheCrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 18:33 urashimakt wrote:
I'm against restricting invites based on race, or anything that can be interpreted as tied to a race (such as skill level or ability to speak English), but honestly if I tuned into the NASL and half of the players were speaking non-English I'd be frustrated. If NASL is truly going for entertainment value for a primarily North American audience, I feel that they should require the ability to speak English understandably. I don't think anything else should really factor in.
Translators don't cut it, no matter how awesome John has proved they can be. Hmm if I was an American I would have been insulted by that :p Subtitles or translations arent good enough? That aside, you are right... jinro, huk and idra should have been forced to learn Korean or get disqualified. Cuz they obviously have no korean fans not being able to speak Korean.... or???
You lose too much of the player's personality through translation or subtitles. If I built a robot who emotionlessly destroyed every SC2 player currently alive and output BM as a series of 0's and 1's, you'd get approximately the same result as an amazing player who can't speak to the audience with their own voice. The prospect of good games excites me, but the prospect of good games and getting to know the players behind them is a market untapped. The NASL might choose to tap that market and I wouldn't blame them.
|
On March 17 2011 00:18 GrackGyver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 00:15 Valkola wrote:
The koreans cant even speak english.. so no even if they r good.. hard to make a "story line" from them cause u have to translate everything they're saying. if they learn english then good. Probably a lot easier to "make a storyline" from JULYZERG than from avilo or pokebunny...
These wont be in anyway, no matter if with Koreans or not. Therefore that is a bad example.
People more likely to be left out because of Koreans are players at the level of Sheth or Darkforce.
|
On March 17 2011 00:15 Valkola wrote:
The koreans cant even speak english.. so no even if they r good.. hard to make a "story line" from them cause u have to translate everything they're saying. if they learn english then good.
What kind of storyline do you expect that Painuser (no offense to you Painuser, i watch your stream all the time and fan of it ) to have that will make you wanna watch or pay for watching NASL?
Are you interested in hearing player storyline in the perspective of gaming or in the perspective of reality show where you see the players house like in MTV cribs, you get to see what clothes he weares and his favourite hamburger?
Because if the storyline and background of the player in the perspective of gaming how about the background of golden mouse winner July's storyline? I bet there is a lot more to tell about his background than for example Pokebunny's.
|
On March 17 2011 00:20 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 18:39 TheCrow wrote:On March 16 2011 18:33 urashimakt wrote:
I'm against restricting invites based on race, or anything that can be interpreted as tied to a race (such as skill level or ability to speak English), but honestly if I tuned into the NASL and half of the players were speaking non-English I'd be frustrated. If NASL is truly going for entertainment value for a primarily North American audience, I feel that they should require the ability to speak English understandably. I don't think anything else should really factor in.
Translators don't cut it, no matter how awesome John has proved they can be. Hmm if I was an American I would have been insulted by that :p Subtitles or translations arent good enough? That aside, you are right... jinro, huk and idra should have been forced to learn Korean or get disqualified. Cuz they obviously have no korean fans not being able to speak Korean.... or??? You lose too much of the player's personality through translation or subtitles. If I built a robot who emotionlessly destroyed every SC2 player currently alive and output BM as a series of 0's and 1's, you'd get approximately the same result as an amazing player who can't speak to the audience with their own voice. The prospect of good games excites me, but the prospect of good games and getting to know the players behind them is a market untapped. The NASL might choose to tap that market and I wouldn't blame them. As far as I know, the Korean stream doesn't even interview the non-Korean speakers until the semifinals. I could be wrong.
You also have to consider how poorly some of the translations actually are. We have seen it again and again in the gsl how Jinro's answer translated to Korean have directly misquoted him (according to himself) and Koreans answers in English have the same problems.
|
On March 17 2011 00:23 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 00:18 GrackGyver wrote:On March 17 2011 00:15 Valkola wrote:
The koreans cant even speak english.. so no even if they r good.. hard to make a "story line" from them cause u have to translate everything they're saying. if they learn english then good. Probably a lot easier to "make a storyline" from JULYZERG than from avilo or pokebunny... These wont be in anyway, no matter if with Koreans or not. Therefore that is a bad example. People more likely to be left out because of Koreans are players at the level of Sheth or Darkforce.
Have Sheth or Darkforce won anything of note? I'm more interested in seeing westerners like Dimaga in the NASL for instance. Make room for Sheth and Darkforce when they become interesting? Maybe I've just missed out on the tournaments where they did something amazing...
|
|
|
On March 17 2011 00:26 GrackGyver wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2011 00:23 Redox wrote:On March 17 2011 00:18 GrackGyver wrote:On March 17 2011 00:15 Valkola wrote:
The koreans cant even speak english.. so no even if they r good.. hard to make a "story line" from them cause u have to translate everything they're saying. if they learn english then good. Probably a lot easier to "make a storyline" from JULYZERG than from avilo or pokebunny... These wont be in anyway, no matter if with Koreans or not. Therefore that is a bad example. People more likely to be left out because of Koreans are players at the level of Sheth or Darkforce. Have Sheth or Darkforce won anything of note? I'm more interested in seeing westerners like Dimaga in the NASL for instance. Make room for Sheth and Darkforce when they become interesting? Maybe I've just missed out on the tournaments where they did something amazing...
Why do you ask me? I have never said they should be in or not. I just corrected your assumption about Avilo / Pokebunny so that we argumentate on a more realistic basis.
|
To be honest, this is kind of a moot point since only 8 Koreans have applied for the NASL so far. Which is a number I think few people would have problems with.
Maybe the discussion has to be revisited in the future, when more Korean applications are unearthed though, who knows.
|
I thank you for the correction, sir.
|
On March 17 2011 00:09 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 23:46 brentsen wrote:
I'm kind of confused how all this will work out. Isn't the NASL supposed to start in like 3 weeks? Well, officially, the deadline for applications has already expired. But we're still getting some more applications right now, so either the NASL extended the deadline or the people uploading them were late getting them out there. Following the originally planned deadlines, players will be informed whether they made the NASL privately in two days. 4 days later (on the 22nd), the NASL will start to unveil the participants to us.
Ah okay, so the discussion is pretty much for nothing because the invitees are already decided? And there will be qualifiers rather than invites for the second season...
|
On March 17 2011 00:30 Bobster wrote:
To be honest, this is kind of a moot point since only 8 Koreans have applied for the NASL so far. Which is a number I think few people would have problems with.
Maybe the discussion has to be revisited in the future, when more Korean applications are unearthed though, who knows.
That is one thing. Also we dont know if these players will actually be able to compete in NASL because of conflicting schedules with GSL. HuK and Jinro have not applied for NASL because it does apparently not work out. It would truly suck if some Koreans play NASL online, qualify for offline finals but wont come then because it conflicts with GSL.
|
On March 16 2011 12:11 Icekommander wrote:
Why the top-tier Koreans shouldn't be in the NASL
The GSL is the absolute pinnacle of SCII skill. Players such as MVP, MC and Nestea are Monsters at the game, and can destroy most of their opposition with ease. This season was something of a hiccup, but I'd bet on MC being the first player to take two GSL seasons.
So doesn't this make them top choices for the NASL? That depends on what you want from the NASL. Did we want another GSl esque "Let the Most Skillfull take home the money"? Or did we want the NASL to be the "Pinnacle of Foreign play?"
At the moment they are quite different. Quite a few foreigners got blocked from the GSL at various points. Players such as InControL and Kiwikaki got blocked from Season 3, and this season Ret, Moonglade and Haypro couldn't make it past ro32 Code A. There are three foreign players who are noticeable in the Korean scene (Idra, Jinro, HuK), of the 15-20 who have tried at one point or another.
It is also important to note IEM. Moon, Ace and Squirtle are hardly the pinnacle of Korean play. All three of them just got demoted to Code B, yet they wiped out the best the rest of the world could offer. TSL 3 will probably repeat this process.
So we can safely assume that the Koreans will rampage through the NASL like nobody's business. I mean, who really thinks that if we have MKP, MC, Nestea, and MVP in NASL, that more than one foreigner can make top 4? It would be domination. Maybe Tyler or White-Ra gets lucky and takes one out, but we aren't likely to see more than one or two.
So let's say that our top four are MVP, MC, Tyler Nestea (1st/2nd/3rd/4th). we don't have the NASL prize distribution yet, but according to liquipedia the GSL pays 140,000,000 of 200,000,000 Won to 1st/2nd/4th, about 70%. Of the 100,000$ that various foreign sources pump into the NASL, 70% of that money just gets pumped right back to Korea, Korean players, Korean Teams.
And this will hurt the Foreign scene. Money is important, it is what will ultimately allow the foreign scene to stay competitive with Korea, or fall behind. If this 70,000$ goes to players and teams like qxc, Select, Tyler, and Liquid/root/mouz, it will allow players to quit jobs (and therefor play full-time SCII), and teams to get Korean esque practising set-ups. But if that money goes straight back to Korea, and Korean teams, then the foreigners can't get the support they need to stay relevant.
So the NASL isn't just about skill now. It's about skill later. If we allow the top tier Koreans access now, they'll stomp North America, and take all the money and send it back to Korea. And if we do that, then foreign players can't get the support they need to play as the Koreans do, allowing Korea to just widen the skill-gap more and more.
Your whole post is silly, you don't fund a proteam by prize money. Thats a completely stupid way to do things. Same goes for anyone else saying some variation of that. Living off prize money is not a stable way to do things.
|
I've posted the below in the TSL thread as well:
Here's my take on the issue of how many koreans should be invited:
"On the issue of inviting koreans or keeping it a non-korean tournament. I think the answer is very simple:
1. Worldwide tournament. Why limit who can play and who can't based on their specific location? If a player from Russia or NA can play, why can't a player from South Korea participate? Makes no sense to me. However, if this was an NA tournament, then yes, it makes sense to only allow NA players to play.
2. Worldwide tournament - people living in US or wherever the tournament is based are only allowed. Therefore if a Korean player wants to play in the tournament, he has to move into a house or rent their own apartment on site. Same goes for all international players. No games allowed to be played outside borders. "
|
Basically my train of thought is that I want to see the best games possible. For that you need the best players and right now the best scene is the korean scene. So yeah I wouldn't mind.
|
On March 17 2011 00:38 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 12:11 Icekommander wrote:
Why the top-tier Koreans shouldn't be in the NASL
The GSL is the absolute pinnacle of SCII skill. Players such as MVP, MC and Nestea are Monsters at the game, and can destroy most of their opposition with ease. This season was something of a hiccup, but I'd bet on MC being the first player to take two GSL seasons.
So doesn't this make them top choices for the NASL? That depends on what you want from the NASL. Did we want another GSl esque "Let the Most Skillfull take home the money"? Or did we want the NASL to be the "Pinnacle of Foreign play?"
At the moment they are quite different. Quite a few foreigners got blocked from the GSL at various points. Players such as InControL and Kiwikaki got blocked from Season 3, and this season Ret, Moonglade and Haypro couldn't make it past ro32 Code A. There are three foreign players who are noticeable in the Korean scene (Idra, Jinro, HuK), of the 15-20 who have tried at one point or another.
It is also important to note IEM. Moon, Ace and Squirtle are hardly the pinnacle of Korean play. All three of them just got demoted to Code B, yet they wiped out the best the rest of the world could offer. TSL 3 will probably repeat this process.
So we can safely assume that the Koreans will rampage through the NASL like nobody's business. I mean, who really thinks that if we have MKP, MC, Nestea, and MVP in NASL, that more than one foreigner can make top 4? It would be domination. Maybe Tyler or White-Ra gets lucky and takes one out, but we aren't likely to see more than one or two.
So let's say that our top four are MVP, MC, Tyler Nestea (1st/2nd/3rd/4th). we don't have the NASL prize distribution yet, but according to liquipedia the GSL pays 140,000,000 of 200,000,000 Won to 1st/2nd/4th, about 70%. Of the 100,000$ that various foreign sources pump into the NASL, 70% of that money just gets pumped right back to Korea, Korean players, Korean Teams.
And this will hurt the Foreign scene. Money is important, it is what will ultimately allow the foreign scene to stay competitive with Korea, or fall behind. If this 70,000$ goes to players and teams like qxc, Select, Tyler, and Liquid/root/mouz, it will allow players to quit jobs (and therefor play full-time SCII), and teams to get Korean esque practising set-ups. But if that money goes straight back to Korea, and Korean teams, then the foreigners can't get the support they need to stay relevant.
So the NASL isn't just about skill now. It's about skill later. If we allow the top tier Koreans access now, they'll stomp North America, and take all the money and send it back to Korea. And if we do that, then foreign players can't get the support they need to play as the Koreans do, allowing Korea to just widen the skill-gap more and more.
Your whole post is silly, you don't fund a proteam by prize money. Thats a completely stupid way to do things. Same goes for anyone else saying some variation of that. Living off prize money is not a stable way to do things.
Pro teams might be financed primarily by sponsorships but a team that doesn't win things obviously isn't going to be sustainable.. No player, team manager or sponsor would want to put time money and effort into a team that isn't going to win tournaments.
|
make it 10 kor, 20 eu, 20 na (+moonglade, sen, loner, maybe fenix).
its a dynamic league anyway, so if koreans are intersted and rly much better they can compete as they wish, just like eu/na...
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
