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On March 16 2011 13:26 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background. Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer. Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Who the hell are you marketing to? The people already in esports and don't care? Some dude isn't going to go on the internet, look at shit, hit the NASL, and then stop because the dude is Asian. If he is, fuck that guy. We already ignore all the racists in our country. Nor is the NASL going to break into the mainstream. It's another SC tourney that will be watched and loved by us on TL, it's not suddenly going to get Joe Schmoe to watch SC. edit- also, foreigners aren't watched by the US? How do you explain all the Hispanic and Japanese players in the MLB? When top teams get the coveted Japanese players no one was like "Fuck this team, I'm not going to watch now that we have a star Japanese player" they were hella excited. What happens if you don't invite any Koreans? Average viewer comes in, thinks "damn these guys are good", watches an IEM and thinks "the GSL is where it's at". You don't invite Koreans, you don't deserve to be called a top-tier competition.
All the people in charge of this league have on numerous occasions that their goal for this is to expand e-sports more into the mainstream. This isn't the 'TeamLiquid.net Open" they want you to watch of course but they arent try to sell this to only you.
They have stated numerous times that you were too dense to hear that they want to create compelling narratives and background stories for these players to appeal to a wider audience. Koreans by large cant do that for a western audience if they did then GSL would be on espn.
Korea did it the right way when the started SC1. They pushed for the narrative focused on players who were marketable who they could put in movies or on posters for teen korean girls to drool over and thats what these NASL guys are after they want a product that they can sell beyond nerds on the tl forums.
You can whine and complain how you think its racist and how youre too good for that and how you want this to be about the best players in the world but its not, it was never about bringing the ultimate players around the world because that would already be gsl its about pushing esports into the west.
Also the MLB metaphor has already been explained stop bringing it up because youre too damn stupid to figure out why your a freaking moron.
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On March 16 2011 13:35 ZeromuS wrote:
I for one just don't want to see NASL be GSL Alternate. I know foreigners went to GSL for the same reasons Koreans want to come to NASL but IMO if we allow all koreans who want in in then we won't really see SC2 grow in NA and we won't foster a higher level of skill among the players. Part of the reason for the NASL is to see NA players get more exposure and improve their overall skill by growing esports. We can't do that if the league is filled with top koreans who dominate and become the majority of the NASL players over time.
I feel that Korean players whose only interest isn't in winning some money and learning 5 words in englishshould be invited .
I mean foreigners go to Korea to play in a major tournament, maybe win some money, explore a new country but most importantly grow as players. I don't feel that Koreans can come to NA to grow as players tbh, to me its more of a cash grab since they expect to win. I mean someone like Cella who interacts with the NA community and the foreigner scene is cool as he wants to help e-sports and starcraft here as well whereas someone like MOON would probably only be in it for the money unless he really makes a commitment to improving the over all skill level of the NA community and chooses to say something more than "koreans own white dudes" after winning :/
come on they made moon say that, he didnt choose to say it. I doubt he even knew what it meant he didnt even pronounce it properly.
Also we wont foster a higher level of skill? So by not inviting the best players in the world and having the west try to compete at the highest possible level that doesnt foster a higher level of skill among players? that doesnt even make any sense
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Why wouldn't we want the best people competing? At the very least why not make it similar to the GSL style where there is a foreigner house and set up a place for players to stay if they need it. Possibly work with GOM to allow for players to move back and forth between tournaments?
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On March 16 2011 13:39 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background. Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer. Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Im sure jinro would agree with me, i bet you more people still look up to boxer than to him, if people knew boxer's background (something this league intends to provide) im sure they would feel the same way as boxer fans everywhere, i only started becoming a esports fan during sc2, i didnt really know who boxer was i watched him in the gsl, heard he was legendary and loved his style (first game i watched of his was when he won against nada in season 2) then i looked him up and started watching alot of his legendary games fromm back in the day now i am the biggest boxer fan. Boxer just has so much history and content to go off of. Just because someone is white doesnt mean they cant look up to someone of another race, that is just ignorant.
Id be willing to bet a large sum of money that jinro would be recognized faster than boxer if we put the two on street corners in Sweden, or even most western countries recognition sells. Are there more people looking up to boxer including korea? Hell yes but even jinro should be able to understand name recognition
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On March 16 2011 13:35 ZeromuS wrote:
I for one just don't want to see NASL be GSL Alternate. I know foreigners went to GSL for the same reasons Koreans want to come to NASL but IMO if we allow all koreans who want in in then we won't really see SC2 grow in NA and we won't foster a higher level of skill among the players. Part of the reason for the NASL is to see NA players get more exposure and improve their overall skill by growing esports. We can't do that if the league is filled with top koreans who dominate and become the majority of the NASL players over time.
I feel that Korean players whose only interest isn't in winning some money and learning 5 words in englishshould be invited .
I mean foreigners go to Korea to play in a major tournament, maybe win some money, explore a new country but most importantly grow as players. I don't feel that Koreans can come to NA to grow as players tbh, to me its more of a cash grab since they expect to win. I mean someone like Cella who interacts with the NA community and the foreigner scene is cool as he wants to help e-sports and starcraft here as well whereas someone like MOON would probably only be in it for the money unless he really makes a commitment to improving the over all skill level of the NA community and chooses to say something more than "koreans own white dudes" after winning :/
You improve by playing against the best and learning from the best. You don't improve by playing against a 4k NA master toss. If you really want the skill level to grow, you want NASL to invite as many top koreans as possible. Because there is a skill gap between korea and rest of the world. If you just have NA and Europe duke it out, it is fairly even and will stay that way but if you bring koreans in this. NA players will have to improve a lot to be able to make money which will in turn bring us better games in season 2 and 3. Season 1 will probably be a slaughter.
I do agree Cellawerra should be an autoinvite. The guy spends more time on teamliquid than almost any other streamers and communicate with his viewers on his fan thread.
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On March 16 2011 13:42 abominare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:26 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background. Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer. Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Who the hell are you marketing to? The people already in esports and don't care? Some dude isn't going to go on the internet, look at shit, hit the NASL, and then stop because the dude is Asian. If he is, fuck that guy. We already ignore all the racists in our country. Nor is the NASL going to break into the mainstream. It's another SC tourney that will be watched and loved by us on TL, it's not suddenly going to get Joe Schmoe to watch SC. edit- also, foreigners aren't watched by the US? How do you explain all the Hispanic and Japanese players in the MLB? When top teams get the coveted Japanese players no one was like "Fuck this team, I'm not going to watch now that we have a star Japanese player" they were hella excited. What happens if you don't invite any Koreans? Average viewer comes in, thinks "damn these guys are good", watches an IEM and thinks "the GSL is where it's at". You don't invite Koreans, you don't deserve to be called a top-tier competition. All the people in charge of this league have on numerous occasions that their goal for this is to expand e-sports more into the mainstream. This isn't the 'TeamLiquid.net Open" they want you to watch of course but they arent try to sell this to only you. They have stated numerous times that you were too dense to hear that they want to create compelling narratives and background stories for these players to appeal to a wider audience. Koreans by large cant do that for a western audience if they did then GSL would be on espn. Korea did it the right way when the started SC1. They pushed for the narrative focused on players who were marketable who they could put in movies or on posters for teen korean girls to drool over and thats what these NASL guys are after they want a product that they can sell beyond nerds on the tl forums. You can whine and complain how you think its racist and how youre too good for that and how you want this to be about the best players in the world but its not, it was never about bringing the ultimate players around the world because that would already be gsl its about pushing esports into the west. Also the MLB metaphor has already been explained stop bringing it up because youre too damn stupid to figure out why your a freaking moron.
What are you talking about. sc1 players became popular on their merit and that's all, not how marketable they were. Sorry to say this but starcraft will not suddenly start to be broadcast on espn because non-koreans are the only ones playing it...not sure what fantasy world you live in.
I for one, couldn't care less about someone's race or nationality, I only care about the quality of games and that will only increase by allowing the best korean players to play.
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On March 16 2011 13:45 abominare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:39 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background. Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer. Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Im sure jinro would agree with me, i bet you more people still look up to boxer than to him, if people knew boxer's background (something this league intends to provide) im sure they would feel the same way as boxer fans everywhere, i only started becoming a esports fan during sc2, i didnt really know who boxer was i watched him in the gsl, heard he was legendary and loved his style (first game i watched of his was when he won against nada in season 2) then i looked him up and started watching alot of his legendary games fromm back in the day now i am the biggest boxer fan. Boxer just has so much history and content to go off of. Just because someone is white doesnt mean they cant look up to someone of another race, that is just ignorant. Id be willing to bet a large sum of money that jinro would be recognized faster than boxer if we put the two on street corners in Sweden, or even most western countries recognition sells. Are there more people looking up to boxer including korea? Hell yes but even jinro should be able to understand name recognition
Well the only people that are going to recognize him are Starcraft 2 players that watch the GSL (he wasnt really that well known before the gsl and MLG he was a sub par player at best) and if they watch the gsl then they would know who boxer is so if anything i would say its at least the same and for other european countries same thing and if you include BW fans then obviously boxer is going to have an edge.
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On March 16 2011 13:45 abominare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:39 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background. Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer. Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Im sure jinro would agree with me, i bet you more people still look up to boxer than to him, if people knew boxer's background (something this league intends to provide) im sure they would feel the same way as boxer fans everywhere, i only started becoming a esports fan during sc2, i didnt really know who boxer was i watched him in the gsl, heard he was legendary and loved his style (first game i watched of his was when he won against nada in season 2) then i looked him up and started watching alot of his legendary games fromm back in the day now i am the biggest boxer fan. Boxer just has so much history and content to go off of. Just because someone is white doesnt mean they cant look up to someone of another race, that is just ignorant. Id be willing to bet a large sum of money that jinro would be recognized faster than boxer if we put the two on street corners in Sweden, or even most western countries recognition sells. Are there more people looking up to boxer including korea? Hell yes but even jinro should be able to understand name recognition
Can you say that about 49 other foreigners?
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On March 16 2011 13:39 Looky wrote:
having the best players play will only help the sport. i dont see how people can think it damages it. if you put lebron james in europe it would surely help basketball over there.
god why are you so smart ? dont say haha i don't know =P
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On March 16 2011 13:50 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:45 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:39 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background. Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer. Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Im sure jinro would agree with me, i bet you more people still look up to boxer than to him, if people knew boxer's background (something this league intends to provide) im sure they would feel the same way as boxer fans everywhere, i only started becoming a esports fan during sc2, i didnt really know who boxer was i watched him in the gsl, heard he was legendary and loved his style (first game i watched of his was when he won against nada in season 2) then i looked him up and started watching alot of his legendary games fromm back in the day now i am the biggest boxer fan. Boxer just has so much history and content to go off of. Just because someone is white doesnt mean they cant look up to someone of another race, that is just ignorant. Id be willing to bet a large sum of money that jinro would be recognized faster than boxer if we put the two on street corners in Sweden, or even most western countries recognition sells. Are there more people looking up to boxer including korea? Hell yes but even jinro should be able to understand name recognition Well the only people that are going to recognize him are Starcraft 2 players that watch the GSL (he wasnt really that well known before the gsl and MLG he was a sub par player at best) and if they watch the gsl then they would know who boxer is so if anything i would say its at least the same and for other european countries same thing and if you include BW fans then obviously boxer is going to have an edge.
Boxer has been an international star for the past decade. Honestly like Artosis always says, "If you haven't heard of Boxer, where the hell have you been?" I'd go ahead and bet that money. You're comparing Jinro, a relatively unknown player until recently, to the greatest e sports icon of all time. Don't blame me if you go broke btw.
edit: dammit i meant to quote cheesemaster. Sorry.
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Canada13404 Posts
On March 16 2011 13:42 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:35 ZeromuS wrote:
I for one just don't want to see NASL be GSL Alternate. I know foreigners went to GSL for the same reasons Koreans want to come to NASL but IMO if we allow all koreans who want in in then we won't really see SC2 grow in NA and we won't foster a higher level of skill among the players. Part of the reason for the NASL is to see NA players get more exposure and improve their overall skill by growing esports. We can't do that if the league is filled with top koreans who dominate and become the majority of the NASL players over time.
I feel that Korean players whose only interest isn't in winning some money and learning 5 words in englishshould be invited .
I mean foreigners go to Korea to play in a major tournament, maybe win some money, explore a new country but most importantly grow as players. I don't feel that Koreans can come to NA to grow as players tbh, to me its more of a cash grab since they expect to win. I mean someone like Cella who interacts with the NA community and the foreigner scene is cool as he wants to help e-sports and starcraft here as well whereas someone like MOON would probably only be in it for the money unless he really makes a commitment to improving the over all skill level of the NA community and chooses to say something more than "koreans own white dudes" after winning :/ come on they made moon say that, he didnt choose to say it. I doubt he even knew what it meant he didnt even pronounce it properly. Also we wont foster a higher level of skill? So by not inviting the best players in the world and having the west try to compete at the highest possible level that doesnt foster a higher level of skill among players? that doesnt even make any sense
We will probably not see pro-gaming houses if the NA or EU players dont get a chance to take part in the NASL due to it being predominantly played by Koreans. Why would you as a company endorse a team like EG or FNATIC or ROOT to have them support individuals in a team house when that team will probably not get much exposure in the NASL when the market you are trying to reach is based in NA or EU. At that point why not sponsor some of the korean teams and players who take part in the NASL since that will get you more exposure. More exposure of NA players will increase the likelihood for sponsorship and team houses to get established. The team house and practice situation is IMO the main thing holding back NA and EU. Half the koreans who play sc2 would be nothing without their team and the team house is an important aspect of why they are so good. By making the sponsorship more lucrative for companies to support establised korean teams, why would they put money into the NA teams? I mean even liquid has to double up with oGs in order have its players in Korea stand a chance like Jinro and HuK. I feel IdrA is probably the exception to being solid and great by living on his own in Korea. Even then, in a team house I'm sure his play would have really improved above that which we have seen yet.
I;m not saying to exclude Korean players but we really need to be careful not to invite the entire cast of the GSL to play in the NASL since to invite the "best players" would involve inviting a TON of the GSL players and GSTL players we have seen.
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On March 16 2011 13:42 abominare wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:26 DystopiaX wrote:On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background. Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer. Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Who the hell are you marketing to? The people already in esports and don't care? Some dude isn't going to go on the internet, look at shit, hit the NASL, and then stop because the dude is Asian. If he is, fuck that guy. We already ignore all the racists in our country. Nor is the NASL going to break into the mainstream. It's another SC tourney that will be watched and loved by us on TL, it's not suddenly going to get Joe Schmoe to watch SC. edit- also, foreigners aren't watched by the US? How do you explain all the Hispanic and Japanese players in the MLB? When top teams get the coveted Japanese players no one was like "Fuck this team, I'm not going to watch now that we have a star Japanese player" they were hella excited. What happens if you don't invite any Koreans? Average viewer comes in, thinks "damn these guys are good", watches an IEM and thinks "the GSL is where it's at". You don't invite Koreans, you don't deserve to be called a top-tier competition. All the people in charge of this league have on numerous occasions that their goal for this is to expand e-sports more into the mainstream. This isn't the 'TeamLiquid.net Open" they want you to watch of course but they arent try to sell this to only you. They have stated numerous times that you were too dense to hear that they want to create compelling narratives and background stories for these players to appeal to a wider audience. Koreans by large cant do that for a western audience if they did then GSL would be on espn. Korea did it the right way when the started SC1. They pushed for the narrative focused on players who were marketable who they could put in movies or on posters for teen korean girls to drool over and thats what these NASL guys are after they want a product that they can sell beyond nerds on the tl forums. You can whine and complain how you think its racist and how youre too good for that and how you want this to be about the best players in the world but its not, it was never about bringing the ultimate players around the world because that would already be gsl its about pushing esports into the west. Also the MLB metaphor has already been explained stop bringing it up because youre too damn stupid to figure out why your a freaking moron.
I'd tell you why you're wrong but I guess i'm too much of a moron to figure it out.
The MLB metaphor is relevant because it proves that the American public doesn't care whether or not the players can speak English or not. Watch an interview; they all use translators. I don't know where you're getting your brood war history but they didn't somehow cherry pick the competition to be the "hottest", they still picked the best. No where in there did I say the NASL SHOULDN'T do their storyline thing, just that I personally believe it wouldn't push mainstream popularity. there's also no reason you can't push Asian players in the U.S. Far East Movement is all Asian and they have several hit songs. Wait, they can't be seen? Well how often do you see the players during a game? Maybe 30 seconds, at most? Wait, but they can't speak English? Several movies have come out to American audiences subbed and they do perfectly fine. Racist girl from UCLA bashes Asians? The internet shuts her down. I don't know where in the US you're pointing to that they're so racist that they won't watch Korean players, and those that are racist are in such a minority that they're inconsequential anyway.
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On March 16 2011 13:56 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:42 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:35 ZeromuS wrote:
I for one just don't want to see NASL be GSL Alternate. I know foreigners went to GSL for the same reasons Koreans want to come to NASL but IMO if we allow all koreans who want in in then we won't really see SC2 grow in NA and we won't foster a higher level of skill among the players. Part of the reason for the NASL is to see NA players get more exposure and improve their overall skill by growing esports. We can't do that if the league is filled with top koreans who dominate and become the majority of the NASL players over time.
I feel that Korean players whose only interest isn't in winning some money and learning 5 words in englishshould be invited .
I mean foreigners go to Korea to play in a major tournament, maybe win some money, explore a new country but most importantly grow as players. I don't feel that Koreans can come to NA to grow as players tbh, to me its more of a cash grab since they expect to win. I mean someone like Cella who interacts with the NA community and the foreigner scene is cool as he wants to help e-sports and starcraft here as well whereas someone like MOON would probably only be in it for the money unless he really makes a commitment to improving the over all skill level of the NA community and chooses to say something more than "koreans own white dudes" after winning :/ come on they made moon say that, he didnt choose to say it. I doubt he even knew what it meant he didnt even pronounce it properly. Also we wont foster a higher level of skill? So by not inviting the best players in the world and having the west try to compete at the highest possible level that doesnt foster a higher level of skill among players? that doesnt even make any sense We will probably not see pro-gaming houses if the NA or EU players dont get a chance to take part in the NASL due to it being predominantly played by Koreans. Why would you as a company endorse a team like EG or FNATIC or ROOT to have them support individuals in a team house when that team will probably not get much exposure in the NASL when the market you are trying to reach is based in NA or EU. At that point why not sponsor some of the korean teams and players who take part in the NASL since that will get you more exposure. More exposure of NA players will increase the likelihood for sponsorship and team houses to get established. The team house and practice situation is IMO the main thing holding back NA and EU. Half the koreans who play sc2 would be nothing without their team and the team house is an important aspect of why they are so good. By making the sponsorship more lucrative for companies to support establised korean teams, why would they put money into the NA teams? I mean even liquid has to double up with oGs in order have its players in Korea stand a chance like Jinro and HuK. I feel IdrA is probably the exception to being solid and great by living on his own in Korea. Even then, in a team house I'm sure his play would have really improved above that which we have seen yet. I;m not saying to exclude Korean players but we really need to be careful not to invite the entire cast of the GSL to play in the NASL since to invite the "best players" would involve inviting a TON of the GSL players and GSTL players we have seen.
IMO the location thing is MUCH more of a factor. The reason why it works is because SK is largely concentrated over Seoul/Incheon, and players already live within that area. More concentrated, more top talent playing in tourneys, going to school together, living in the same neighborhoods, and eventually living together. Ask a lot of top NA/EU players if they want to live together and they'd probably say no. A lot of players are in college and wouldn't give that up, more wouldn't want to pick up and leave.
If you're saying top pro teams aren't making enough money, a lot of top foreigner teams already give players salaries. They have enough, and associating with the NASL will get them more. the argument that NONE of them will appear is irrelevant because the NASL will still invite a lot of foreigners. There's nothing wrong with inviting a few Koreans as well.
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On March 16 2011 13:56 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:50 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:45 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:39 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background. Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer. Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Im sure jinro would agree with me, i bet you more people still look up to boxer than to him, if people knew boxer's background (something this league intends to provide) im sure they would feel the same way as boxer fans everywhere, i only started becoming a esports fan during sc2, i didnt really know who boxer was i watched him in the gsl, heard he was legendary and loved his style (first game i watched of his was when he won against nada in season 2) then i looked him up and started watching alot of his legendary games fromm back in the day now i am the biggest boxer fan. Boxer just has so much history and content to go off of. Just because someone is white doesnt mean they cant look up to someone of another race, that is just ignorant. Id be willing to bet a large sum of money that jinro would be recognized faster than boxer if we put the two on street corners in Sweden, or even most western countries recognition sells. Are there more people looking up to boxer including korea? Hell yes but even jinro should be able to understand name recognition Well the only people that are going to recognize him are Starcraft 2 players that watch the GSL (he wasnt really that well known before the gsl and MLG he was a sub par player at best) and if they watch the gsl then they would know who boxer is so if anything i would say its at least the same and for other european countries same thing and if you include BW fans then obviously boxer is going to have an edge. Boxer has been an international star for the past decade. Honestly like Artosis always says, "If you haven't heard of Boxer, where the hell have you been?" I'd go ahead and bet that money. You're comparing Jinro, a relatively unknown player until recently, to the greatest e sports icon of all time. Don't blame me if you go broke btw. edit: dammit i meant to quote cheesemaster. Sorry.
Yea if yoou look at what i was was originally quoting someone was saying that "obviously little joe swede (their words) is gonna look up to jinro way more than someone like boxer, and then they said that Jinro would be far more recognizable then boxer say on a street corner in europe.
I completely agree that boxer the greatest esports super star of all time is gonna be more recognizable than Jinro probably even in his own country. I said pretty much the exact same thing your saying to me now in the post before the one you quoted so yea i 100% agree with you.
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On March 16 2011 13:56 rysecake wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:50 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:45 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:39 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background. Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer. Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Im sure jinro would agree with me, i bet you more people still look up to boxer than to him, if people knew boxer's background (something this league intends to provide) im sure they would feel the same way as boxer fans everywhere, i only started becoming a esports fan during sc2, i didnt really know who boxer was i watched him in the gsl, heard he was legendary and loved his style (first game i watched of his was when he won against nada in season 2) then i looked him up and started watching alot of his legendary games fromm back in the day now i am the biggest boxer fan. Boxer just has so much history and content to go off of. Just because someone is white doesnt mean they cant look up to someone of another race, that is just ignorant. Id be willing to bet a large sum of money that jinro would be recognized faster than boxer if we put the two on street corners in Sweden, or even most western countries recognition sells. Are there more people looking up to boxer including korea? Hell yes but even jinro should be able to understand name recognition Well the only people that are going to recognize him are Starcraft 2 players that watch the GSL (he wasnt really that well known before the gsl and MLG he was a sub par player at best) and if they watch the gsl then they would know who boxer is so if anything i would say its at least the same and for other european countries same thing and if you include BW fans then obviously boxer is going to have an edge. Boxer has been an international star for the past decade. Honestly like Artosis always says, "If you haven't heard of Boxer, where the hell have you been?" I'd go ahead and bet that money. You're comparing Jinro, a relatively unknown player until recently, to the greatest e sports icon of all time. Don't blame me if you go broke btw. edit: dammit i meant to quote cheesemaster. Sorry.
Unfortunately, that's an incredibly optimistic way of looking at things. Nobody knows anything about Boxer aside from people who already pay attention to StarCraft. I love how people assume that celebrities within the community are seen as celebrities throughout the entire world >.>
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On March 16 2011 14:04 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:56 rysecake wrote:On March 16 2011 13:50 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:45 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:39 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background. Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer. Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Im sure jinro would agree with me, i bet you more people still look up to boxer than to him, if people knew boxer's background (something this league intends to provide) im sure they would feel the same way as boxer fans everywhere, i only started becoming a esports fan during sc2, i didnt really know who boxer was i watched him in the gsl, heard he was legendary and loved his style (first game i watched of his was when he won against nada in season 2) then i looked him up and started watching alot of his legendary games fromm back in the day now i am the biggest boxer fan. Boxer just has so much history and content to go off of. Just because someone is white doesnt mean they cant look up to someone of another race, that is just ignorant. Id be willing to bet a large sum of money that jinro would be recognized faster than boxer if we put the two on street corners in Sweden, or even most western countries recognition sells. Are there more people looking up to boxer including korea? Hell yes but even jinro should be able to understand name recognition Well the only people that are going to recognize him are Starcraft 2 players that watch the GSL (he wasnt really that well known before the gsl and MLG he was a sub par player at best) and if they watch the gsl then they would know who boxer is so if anything i would say its at least the same and for other european countries same thing and if you include BW fans then obviously boxer is going to have an edge. Boxer has been an international star for the past decade. Honestly like Artosis always says, "If you haven't heard of Boxer, where the hell have you been?" I'd go ahead and bet that money. You're comparing Jinro, a relatively unknown player until recently, to the greatest e sports icon of all time. Don't blame me if you go broke btw. edit: dammit i meant to quote cheesemaster. Sorry. Yea if yoou look at what i was was originally quoting someone was saying that "obviously little joe swede (their words) is gonna look up to jinro way more than someone like boxer, and then they said that Jinro would be far more recognizable then boxer say on a street corner in europe. I completely agree that boxer the greatest esports super star of all time is gonna be more recognizable than Jinro probably even in his own country. I said pretty much the exact same thing your saying to me now in the post before the one you quoted so yea i 100% agree with you.
Missed that. My fault, it's late into the night and I'm not 100% literate anymore haha
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On March 16 2011 13:56 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:42 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:35 ZeromuS wrote:
I for one just don't want to see NASL be GSL Alternate. I know foreigners went to GSL for the same reasons Koreans want to come to NASL but IMO if we allow all koreans who want in in then we won't really see SC2 grow in NA and we won't foster a higher level of skill among the players. Part of the reason for the NASL is to see NA players get more exposure and improve their overall skill by growing esports. We can't do that if the league is filled with top koreans who dominate and become the majority of the NASL players over time.
I feel that Korean players whose only interest isn't in winning some money and learning 5 words in englishshould be invited .
I mean foreigners go to Korea to play in a major tournament, maybe win some money, explore a new country but most importantly grow as players. I don't feel that Koreans can come to NA to grow as players tbh, to me its more of a cash grab since they expect to win. I mean someone like Cella who interacts with the NA community and the foreigner scene is cool as he wants to help e-sports and starcraft here as well whereas someone like MOON would probably only be in it for the money unless he really makes a commitment to improving the over all skill level of the NA community and chooses to say something more than "koreans own white dudes" after winning :/ come on they made moon say that, he didnt choose to say it. I doubt he even knew what it meant he didnt even pronounce it properly. Also we wont foster a higher level of skill? So by not inviting the best players in the world and having the west try to compete at the highest possible level that doesnt foster a higher level of skill among players? that doesnt even make any sense We will probably not see pro-gaming houses if the NA or EU players dont get a chance to take part in the NASL due to it being predominantly played by Koreans. Why would you as a company endorse a team like EG or FNATIC or ROOT to have them support individuals in a team house when that team will probably not get much exposure in the NASL when the market you are trying to reach is based in NA or EU. At that point why not sponsor some of the korean teams and players who take part in the NASL since that will get you more exposure. More exposure of NA players will increase the likelihood for sponsorship and team houses to get established. The team house and practice situation is IMO the main thing holding back NA and EU. Half the koreans who play sc2 would be nothing without their team and the team house is an important aspect of why they are so good. By making the sponsorship more lucrative for companies to support establised korean teams, why would they put money into the NA teams? I mean even liquid has to double up with oGs in order have its players in Korea stand a chance like Jinro and HuK. I feel IdrA is probably the exception to being solid and great by living on his own in Korea. Even then, in a team house I'm sure his play would have really improved above that which we have seen yet. I;m not saying to exclude Korean players but we really need to be careful not to invite the entire cast of the GSL to play in the NASL since to invite the "best players" would involve inviting a TON of the GSL players and GSTL players we have seen.
Im not saying let it be an all korean tournament, im saying let 10 -15 MAX of the best koreans compete in the tournament i dont think anyone in this thread thinks that the NASL should be predominantly koreans as you put it, but just as their will representation fromm europe their should be representation from korea, if you have 20 players from europe and korea then thats still 30 north american players and id still be pretty hard pressed to name 30 NA players who are at that top skill level and truely deserve to be in the NASL id have an easier time if i added in a few more european players though ^^
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On March 16 2011 14:07 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:56 rysecake wrote:On March 16 2011 13:50 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:45 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:39 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background. Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer. Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Im sure jinro would agree with me, i bet you more people still look up to boxer than to him, if people knew boxer's background (something this league intends to provide) im sure they would feel the same way as boxer fans everywhere, i only started becoming a esports fan during sc2, i didnt really know who boxer was i watched him in the gsl, heard he was legendary and loved his style (first game i watched of his was when he won against nada in season 2) then i looked him up and started watching alot of his legendary games fromm back in the day now i am the biggest boxer fan. Boxer just has so much history and content to go off of. Just because someone is white doesnt mean they cant look up to someone of another race, that is just ignorant. Id be willing to bet a large sum of money that jinro would be recognized faster than boxer if we put the two on street corners in Sweden, or even most western countries recognition sells. Are there more people looking up to boxer including korea? Hell yes but even jinro should be able to understand name recognition Well the only people that are going to recognize him are Starcraft 2 players that watch the GSL (he wasnt really that well known before the gsl and MLG he was a sub par player at best) and if they watch the gsl then they would know who boxer is so if anything i would say its at least the same and for other european countries same thing and if you include BW fans then obviously boxer is going to have an edge. Boxer has been an international star for the past decade. Honestly like Artosis always says, "If you haven't heard of Boxer, where the hell have you been?" I'd go ahead and bet that money. You're comparing Jinro, a relatively unknown player until recently, to the greatest e sports icon of all time. Don't blame me if you go broke btw. edit: dammit i meant to quote cheesemaster. Sorry. Unfortunately, that's an incredibly optimistic way of looking at things. Nobody knows anything about Boxer aside from people who already pay attention to StarCraft. I love how people assume that celebrities within the community are seen as celebrities throughout the entire world >.>
We're not comparing Boxer to celebrities like Britney Spears. We're comparing him to Jinro...
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SC1 was hard to relate to due to the language barrier at times, which the many, many articles TL writers wrote helped to endear me towards those players.
SC2 has GOMTV which broadcasts in English with two great commentators which is a great step forward towards being able to relate to the players, however Korea still exists on a plateau and a world of its own to some degree.
I do believe that currently Koreans are across the board better than foreigners in SC2. We could argue for months why (Nature vs Nurture argument basis?), but instead I believe that if there is going to be a NASL focusing on the "foreigner" scene, it should focus on the "foreigner scene" and let them develop and grow. Teams, sponsorships, etc. are necessary for people to gain skill and having them get crushed while setting out is a bad idea.
Let the GSL, WCG, Blizzcon, and others be the world tournaments, one of which is always on. Just as college basketball is allowed to sit alongside the NBA, let NASL develop and grow, and then send its players off to become legends in the world league.
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On March 16 2011 14:07 Zeke50100 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2011 13:56 rysecake wrote:On March 16 2011 13:50 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:45 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:39 cheesemaster wrote:On March 16 2011 13:22 abominare wrote:On March 16 2011 13:16 red4ce wrote:
I wanna know if the 'No Koreans' camp is against Jinro playing in the NASL also. Jinro lives in Korea, is Korean trained, is participating in the GSL code S, is as skilled as the best Koreans, and has said he plans on staying in Korea in the near future. Much like MC/MVP/Nestea, if Jinro played in the NASL he'd roll his way through the tournament until he plays against Idra. The only difference between him and the other Koreans is his country of origin and his fluency in English. Of course not Jinro speaks fluent english and has a western background. Hes way more marketable in the west than a person like MC, MKP, or even Slayers_Boxer. There I said it. You will have a much easier time marketing jinro to the west than you would even some one as legendary as boxer. Little Joe Swede is far more likely to look up to Jinro than Boxer, just like a korean is more likely to look up to boxer. NASL is not looking to sell anything in Korea atleast not yet theyre looking for what will sell in Europe America and koreans wont sell shit past the already ordained. Im sure jinro would agree with me, i bet you more people still look up to boxer than to him, if people knew boxer's background (something this league intends to provide) im sure they would feel the same way as boxer fans everywhere, i only started becoming a esports fan during sc2, i didnt really know who boxer was i watched him in the gsl, heard he was legendary and loved his style (first game i watched of his was when he won against nada in season 2) then i looked him up and started watching alot of his legendary games fromm back in the day now i am the biggest boxer fan. Boxer just has so much history and content to go off of. Just because someone is white doesnt mean they cant look up to someone of another race, that is just ignorant. Id be willing to bet a large sum of money that jinro would be recognized faster than boxer if we put the two on street corners in Sweden, or even most western countries recognition sells. Are there more people looking up to boxer including korea? Hell yes but even jinro should be able to understand name recognition Well the only people that are going to recognize him are Starcraft 2 players that watch the GSL (he wasnt really that well known before the gsl and MLG he was a sub par player at best) and if they watch the gsl then they would know who boxer is so if anything i would say its at least the same and for other european countries same thing and if you include BW fans then obviously boxer is going to have an edge. Boxer has been an international star for the past decade. Honestly like Artosis always says, "If you haven't heard of Boxer, where the hell have you been?" I'd go ahead and bet that money. You're comparing Jinro, a relatively unknown player until recently, to the greatest e sports icon of all time. Don't blame me if you go broke btw. edit: dammit i meant to quote cheesemaster. Sorry. Unfortunately, that's an incredibly optimistic way of looking at things. Nobody knows anything about Boxer aside from people who already pay attention to StarCraft. I love how people assume that celebrities within the community are seen as celebrities throughout the entire world >.>
Well boxer was on MTV as one of the greatest gaming figures of all time but thats besides the point. Do you just expect a bunch of people who have never heard of starcraft before to start watching the NASL the people that will be watching the NASL is the starcraft community and friends of people within starcraft community, and if boxer came on to play and my friend who knew very little about starcraft was watching i would tell him all about boxer and how great he is/ was and im sure alot of people would do the same. 99% of the NASL's fan base is going to be the starcraft community so why wouldnt they cater to us? lol
its not like the NASL is going to be on TV its going to be on a stream on a website and your going to have to know about it to watch it your not just going to tune in.
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EPT
